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you talk about the guys don't about mental regularly they've been doing it a long time one of the more interesting things I've seen and now dr. sonoda is here from sony home now and he's head of the headphone development at Sony I wanted to talk to you now because you guys actually made some balanced armature here's a couple of models which I actually quite light especially the XP a three relatively affordable something tell me what's the XP injury three hundred bucks you know their belts and I think it's a wonderful piece I put it in our buying guide because I recommend it but you gots to be an interesting route I mean you haven't been doing balanced armatures a long time you just started but unlike everybody else that I've seen you actually developed balanced armature drivers on your own rather than sourcing from somewhere else why would you have done that and how did you do it as you did well ok so what's going to talk about the air so far down summative why do we decided to treat to start producing d that's about how much are driving it as hell in the past with the weak ones believed for some time with two abilities is award since they are versatile person and everyone is suppose beer so but the doesn't Drive anything to have a slightly softer diaphragm and if which you know which will offer support air to either your ear channel and then focus of all of that big driver realities is a lot more ideas of solution partner but there's a row after we we have seen this over but we all market the 60 days of these guys as a world like it's all 28 years ago look at some other for sure some kind of those manufactures harder to be are a simple very good start so much driving its head Iran's and so yes so what we have seen as an opportunity for that this is another opportunity does in the bigger the parties opportunity but they usually quality opportunity as its all those all kind of this bounce how much driving it sugar it's a great good isolation from environmentalists out to issue you can and then photos of our we thought as if this is good for mobile use so then we decided to go we decided go to us without supper to drive a weird and then once a month end we needed reading we did Carter and launched this product it's very intuitive there is a recent years either other one we wanted to control everything such as well from the years of this we scratched to these and fun profit then there's a one that is very issue is a subtract minute so if we don't promise be traffic by ourselves it doesn't mean we cannot so we cannot get the earth ideal society characteristics or without that they did was we decided so whilst on the card it starts pragma by factoring what you're dropping well yes that goes against I mean you actually are developed at that certainly is not an inexpensive way to do are a spoof of your own belts are but nobody else is will develop into a balanced armature drivers so that's pretty cool you've obviously invested line that will we see more products balanced armature products from selling yes so one of the show I be got my digits also possible like us is a sin city so Sony is a big company and say what we have made as a there is a big investment for these two have to produce these about so much of traveling then if there are one of it is a key is out there is only but motivated are the production line for the advance on which is rightly that's the key also affordable insist on something tonight how much are driving but so I'll repeat it to heaven when it is a compromise ation on the years about the design movies about some photography fantastic all right well that's you know I wanted to love being that this is a hype I show and there's a lot of extreme I by here I wanted to transition into some of the higher end stuff and a lot of people don't know in the audio world is that some of the best sounding headphones in the world regardless of our Factory in my opinion anyway are some of the top notch custom in-ear monitors that are available and that's where we have Gerry Harvey Carl card right from West down my thigh a small tears Gerry Harvey now JH audio is really the guy who sort of invented the multi driver custom in-ear monitor and actually there's a really interesting story behind it helping jerry can share that he were good actually the guy next to my left my left here and I we kind of work together from what 94 95 about 2,000 so we were kind of a real team I would push Carl the gold stuff and I will be out in the field I was doing van Halen to Taemin we decided he answered a phone one day and I call me decided he work with me so I owe a lot of what happened to Carl great guy and we were a really good team in the early years so you know we developed a lot of good stuff together I would push you but you know I couldn't have done anything without him we were a great team so where did the idea come from you know like initially with Alex yeah well in ear monitors been around probably for at least five years before that because first company called on Carla radio stations and they actually were the first professional in-ear monitor mugler company the gentleman named Marty Garcia that actually started in ear monitors but his idea was to take a diaphragm put it in a mold and that wasn't you know the in-ear monitors so the hardware was very good ear piece was really horrible so that's why you know faculty 95 I started working on a earpiece so I would be fired decided to make it sound better and that's what it all came about for that call karls you know Carl said I can mold it and work kind of web app there's you know all the people all people two people were trying to do in the air monitor at the time had only dynamic drivers they were using it as you know with any magnetic Drive need to have space you need to have been ting that old tunes it makes examine right well back in the early 90s I worked with Bill Chrysler for a def leppard tour a rushed or not that I was on the tour but they were having problems with so much stage volume that you know their ears were in terrible shape because they were using dynamic drivers for the monitors so we switched them into balanced armature driver your pieces which essentially give us a solid earplug so a solid fully attenuating earpiece could be developed then Jerry and I got together and we said well okay you know volume and destroying these dynamic drivers and trying to be better outlet out of them was the general is facing so we work together and kind of solve that problem along the way built a couple of new ideas a couple companies and okay probably ninety percent of the companies that build any air monitors are both some of the stuff we worked on 95 98 but yes so that's kind of how it went and I just looked up at the PA system and I was like I knew how to tune a PA system I knew how to you know how you know big systems work I just thought I'd miniaturize it and put in an earpiece I decided this common sense that there should be a low driver high diver not just a broadband single balanced armature because I believe that it's really almost impossible for one armature to do the complete bandwidth or one diaphragm to do the complete bandwidth so you really have to start using different-size components to actually do the proper bandwidth and split about you know 283 way through we works about the two ways also acceptable otherwise everything to do is just compromise okay you know when we do multi driver things we have compromised but everything is compromised you know the less components that kind of thing I'm sure you bet same thing working with these drivers can be very Ward rewarding and very difficult to front me exactly what you want himself so gay bi G original question again once the state was said with all my drivers it was the market that really helped crack the sounds that sound was interpreted the companies involved because the market with musicians always seeking another level of perfection more clarity or death or some competitive that kept dry in this market and it wasn't ppl apart support the kids will all disappear so so years and years of gives you know perfection speaking of every right sound signatures with all the best years industry kid for consumers are to get hip in the early early early information at by first colony members internal we started to gravitate what about using this version these pro technologies for a consumer-grade business experience and that was this next level of generation harmony and network third iteration where you have created problem using to consumers and it's still you know I mean as far as the prospector consumers on the custom side sill few people that I rm2 even know what they are yet they're familiar with the fact that the favorite musicians use them how many in here actually ever had custom in-ear monitors made so in this room actually about third and get these yeah but mostly people rented to never use them or even thought about it but never played with the back to musicians use it not realizing that the fact it's been favorite artists are using some best sounding headphones have been professionally for years I found in general custom in-ear monitors to have a substantial sonic advantage what they're done right versus any of the best universal bits i've got any way I think you might try out my 357 good as a top magic I say the best the best generic good one the high for me is the sheer 535 and doesn't hear from me 900 I like 25 35 you know I have a question that how much of this stuff came I'm talking about all the sound reinforcement stuff but what about from the hearing aids I and mot can you notice Oh etymotic wasn't really involved in the professional sites they have seen about the storage of the art or so me actually kind of launched into these he was the first person to actually take a balanced armature make a broadband to your case it was originally developed for a piece of tested with it just so happened that a guy in the lab was going you know bored one night he was bumped some tunes the address microphone and that's where the art for Cain so you know when you said clinical that this truly is if the Air Force I still get peace no disrespect meant yeah but it would be nice that beat killing you know you're better but but yeah that's LSPs but so what what what gives if it is same if you go along with me the way i feel i think customs do sound up in the university it's a try what would give a custom the advantage i'm just trying to understand wat you know what what what are some of the real estate in an outer space to work you can arrange a components properly you can you can do things now most of the generic earpieces there's a compromise in the board structure is always a high-frequency lost you don't have that in a custom piece because you have you can put two three boars whatever you need to do to get the frequency response to extend out I mean it also has obviously do with driver you know design those kinds of things but basically the real estate works in your favor and a custom all in more places to put components in you can make the tubes of proper links things like that and as manufacturer protests and managing universal codes of universal disabilities real estate that you know everybody's ears is unique is there okay and we can all use language to talk about what we hear but we'll never hear what each other so then we can make advantage of the canal except to open up the sound to get early grave with depth if you will into the impaler closer to the TM then you could with any kind of universal design I think there are distinct advantages there that we as manufacturers can use to make this particular model Sam faster you know Jerry was talking about different sound boards different lengths and force different there's all kinds of things that come into play that you can use to improve the quality of central I think we're going to see now going forward the next five years we'll see another we'll catch up to the customers are now well but the demand are going to you say still so unknown custom side the demand is going to create 20 just going to drive the parking spaces drive quality so i think it will be Oh whistles may also see the same tensely those companies here really driving the market universal sign when you can get more massive fuel those years we're going to see another way yes Oh Carl you mentioned that you do universals and customs does the custom does anything you learn from customs have any relevance I mean does it pass down is it like the formula one where the technology can action find its way to Paris eventually yeah it definitely works that way into anything that we learn we would use to our advantage or as much of that particular theory practice or whatever did you can physically fit into a custom product and you know I also think you know earlier you talked about entry-level products and stuff like that I still think you know I remember Jerry I first talked too sure about a universal in your monitor and what they were going to do versus what we did for them you know we even brought up the fact that you know there's a whole consumer world out here but that world needs to be educated because quite truthfully as you guys probably know most people don't know what good soundings because a bit inundated since birth with this look our scenario sounds like this sounds like and this is what your ear about set by the mass market stuff out there those groups like this and manufacturers and magazines like this that are actually raising the level so that people out there will start to expect more I mean you know if you look at a car from 40 years ago and all the features and stuff that it had actually can apply every six months now you can apply it every six years okay and so consumers are becoming educated they're willing to pay more for the things that offer all this up and i think the balanced armature driver gave you the finer things you had one that a completely new balanced armored car driver from the scratch I mean that that's really exciting kind of late but I'm figuring those things really exciting and I think they do show that you know even his fist cases of our phone bills up and people are going to expect better and better and more and more and it's going to comfort comfort for us to keep on but in our camp exact exactly i mean it's like ike remember when I you know I a little bit of a crappy musician when I played my first game it was like 200 wat PA and for 10 inch speakers on each side of the stage now I mean it laughed out of it even a small group of them with that so everybody sucks more everybody expects better than I think that you know some of the companies up here you can continue to deliver the high end of what other people will respond God Chris yet sup y'all talk I'm sorry I just thought it might back to part of the question you asked for me bring the party which is why I invited Syrian hey guys our research leads us believe sonic reality if you isn't actually the same humans and our research because who we are there are clusters of ideas of what neutrality would be in an in here so what we'll do is we'll go platform you basically never get here and a series of filters that match those curves that we believe me the most common ones plug-in Phil 3d or see see what times with your sense of hearing blah blah we've got neutrality for you next you woman next to perceive things differently they can pick a different filter and then they'll be happy so i think that idea makes the water intuitive sensing and what dessert comes out of this what I find is a little review product try and reactions will be all over the map this thing really can't stand wow this thing needs more eyes and beds Wow the high end is hotter than molten glass I need to trim it and you kind of think issues who the same product not this thing they have been they've learned a lot of live music so I mean it's not like they just fell from space what's that they're literally trying to chase realistic reproduction but it's not coming out so what it's worth that's like meow decided to build its mega uber universal fit in here not one of the Affordable phone app when they felt their cave 3003 they use very similar hopefully the other thing that sometimes universal fit hol on a date on your shoes so that they're able to me I but it's not an axiomatic universal fits actually kind of art or so legends and probably ignore this yourself these are really comfortable trying rather stay open Oh guys make guesses about University customers solve the problem freeway I would agree that experience with the ear multiple here's is looking when we first started to our university of west on laboratory probably the largest man pause for a year Oh I've been there for sorry supplies customer so it's kind of thing I would agree that experience into your particular universe is most critical I mean every area can he go with the generality every year from the aperture accountant genetic memory is approximately 25 every years Arsenal TC symbolic from earpiece to TM I can tell you from reality that's not necessarily game company that general broad guidelines I know Sydney office here is my brother Chris parties also long-term died here harvest and stomping yeah everyone that has a universal fit that is a comfortable that should thank Chris because he designed that for sure brother so yeah I was going to say his design is probably the most copy design on the planet as a matter of fact I was on Amazon the other day looking at here pieces and there's a new company out that's talking about their revolutionary teardrop did but you know when when we decided to design the universal we had years of experience with Beauty discuss appearances and so we could visualize a log of what we'd seen the best and as a benefit we have access to thousands of human ear impressions and we you know spent like two days with a notebook and rulers and dividers and all kinds of stuff in the weed measure and came up with what we thought was the optimum shape or aim if you haven't tried I mean yeah sure brothers products are kind of based on that designed west end products there are a few others now that are kind of wasted but if you're looking for universal go any few years is and also the bodies up so maybe it has been an influential thing and that relationship with here is both these gentlemen sent us really there's something to work or not talking about and that's the human side of them so we can we can all talk about it here we can talk about the ideals but if the pieces are other way that they're big but they're funny nobody's inviting you make it sound a to ask them one of our first Universal designs which was one of my favorite sonic signature look like franchise owners and it and so so we can have all the data points we can say this is what an earpiece should look like but if it doesnt sit flush if women don't gravitate to it it's not going in there if it's not truly universal and I mean Universal and all the spokes what people buy something sounds good looks good it feels good it's not going to be a successful product and so what we're seeing right now is we're seeing a bird of all of these things and we're seeing it Luna to where it is consumer friendly customer accepted our new universal 900 in my opinion are one of the nicest I've ever seen in a bit right of the year but should what's happening now so we're really seeing and we will continue to see that direction loli begs to differ the noble does beg the differ because he's got earphones that are shaped like trumpets and triangles and all sorts of stuff but I can tell some whole hell of our and that's nice actually like confidence okay I'm just saying I mean it's coach I mean right Olivia yeah but looks like a trumpet but but it having sounds good for university but alright so before we because I want to end with the custom guys again cuz i have some point i want to make I got her my not here blackberry by JH audio Matt for any specific reason other people see them easily to black but before we move on I wanted to leave the manufactures out of this one in toxic tile Chris and say so we were talking about universal fit recommendations I want to start with my first we're talking about that I'm not saying he's here this is the sony x ba three I really like a tech that's three hundred dollars or there abouts in Ultimate Ears UE 900 feet right those it yeah I like those a lot the Westone 4r not just good these guys are sitting and they happen to be some of the best in your manufactures here the shirt SZ 5 35 are mine and the Phonak extra the DfE 232 I think like you know like them know a lot of your reputation why I first of all I really hate anything that's piercing right anyway what's which one of those bright it virtually all really yeah I think I don't like the Sony's I don't i sure's are spinning up her for universal fit I like the peonies that Chris mention the and the cheap ones she wants yeah they're not very they don't have very much bass in them either a little bass shy but they're very very clean sounding they remind me a lot of the edamame PR course if you're trying to get a lot of isolation that etymotic ER for PE offers more isolation and it's not anything bugs organ arming in a lot always just really able to shove it very feature I like it's just happening oh yeah that's how I didn't sound and all the other one so we disagree on this choice what about a guy from know so I tend to like smooth sounding stuff and fundamentally that's really really hard these tend to be a little so the SB 535 20 yeah so the SE 535 where it goes in the real force the swagger real voice to beat their dynamics they're not get down yeah then Isis has to get it dad or what about you Chris oh there's a shrimp was point for the magazine you'll see free copies of these around and the writers got to say as open your phone anna has on section and so well sort of to which is the lesser classic the corporate interests yeah that's good there it is really comfortable that'sthat's of a time yeah I have my favor of monster cables some for they are appealing really feeling well field that day I too bright never lose the filters move alright so now we were funny when i text i want to get back to customs because that even though they go deeper I finally be more comfortable do you talk that much what about your comfort and in addition to that baby sound but they're also a lot easier to put in so you don't have to roll so this is left your piece it's in and then when you want to take it out and it isolates very well I found that it causes like this devil appears that you just ordered a 16 so yeah so these are changing speeds here I black the sound of do-gooder easy to see but there they go and using AC little well they're very comfortable because they don't place a lot about the press releases if you get a proper bit under year canal so from a conference standpoint are also anybody wanted anything about comfort sound advantages with the customs well i was just going to handle the comfort you know some people go well maybe it's hard plastic and but you know it's just like a super ok back the wall mr. and some of that is you follow me we all have our secret sauce he's in treatment brushes don't be different and that is to authorize what we get out of the earpiece so google number scalar persons pression talking about they're not just an impression taker for no reason at all longer than they have to be in the mall and you were close we can exhibit this serious thing but if you take the right steps all manufacturers we'll have the most amazing sounding comfortable and if you're going to invest in thousand dollar in ear monitors it doesn't hurt you to call the manufacturer because you just tell where you live and be looking for an audiologist so just to make me fear that reminds me I don't know who knows what we're talking about your get to shooting silicone impressions of your ears today Jack's silicon interiors develop the whole ear canal that's how they get discussion you're here and call the manufacturers and ask for a recommendation they might have in your area if you would have been a really rural area might have to kind of find them on your own but in most major cities these guys have recommendations specific audiologists a big they might recommend and which say it's good idea guys to go i would i would say one of the best place to get your impressions don't you f bestows because yeah look at what they're doing you know they know you're there doing when we get done resident show so you have at an extra set of buried in your head phone case of great listed if I man I don't know what you are but I in our booths here and so you can if you just want to come by and talk to somebody about the tools and the materials and the circuit pressures at least you can get an idea ever watch them any other scale how much is a typical set of impressions or so but if you buy one pair 50 75 meters and now but Terry you know so the impressions things interesting like your booth you have a technology that's being shown call ya there lantos technology it's so any or scanner so first quarter next year hopefully this will be launched after through their FAA approval and so we're hoping it within the near future that the impressions will go by the wayside because in the back side we're already using a sewing machines to print shells and three shade programs to detail the shells of the UV world you know UV material so we're going to be launching with hopefully when it does we'll be using that stuff next course no quarter of next year to try to move over to digital world to get rid of some of the impression taking connecticut for all the efforts of lawlessness absolutely it is really amazing because they in any way Oh same thing will apply to individual we're all using for different reasons and different purposes the last step will you should look at impression standard more suit I'm not really sure what their business model is but is going to be readily available and it will be cheaper than taking impressions it's like cumin dollar reusable little balloon that they put on there that has a couple different guys in it so well it doesn't use lasers except their uses did you know it's an MIT spin-off the design does Lantos and really the center scanner has been talked about for the past 15 years we'll see it in 18 months we'll see it in 18 months while other a few companies that actually are covering it to market but the way I think it works and i'm not an expert on it is that there's a balloon that actually inflates it has a couple different color to dye in it and then as you pull the scope out it's stitches together the image as it comes out of the year there's so many points of reference in there and I guess that I could be no I'm just giving a broad stroke I don't know the details of it but if you want to speak to the lady at our booth she knows in depth of how this works if she could be able to details it's very there are several different models scanning technology will be kind of it I mean for us as manufacturers it'd probably be ideal if you go to little supporters booths in call and say I want a UV 7000 you know carbaryl 78 whatever it is and you know that's transaction that takes place instantaneous and bad that all of us are looking at ways to make this work as a convenience thank you because all of us will be customer otherwise we would be doing the custom thing now universal is a different business model but you kind of if you match the mall store idea in a universal you know where the doctor Scholl's Custom she winks our booth I kind of get probably were some people think that this is headed in distribution of better fitting better sending stuff and a lot of Education which and then get by itself this episode because at the end of the day custom is a hard product to acquire you have to really want yeah there's some hurdles and salutes you have to jump through there I can't think of many other products that exist that are so difficult to achieve is that really shorter than staff and it brings custom much closer I think customs are going to become more confidential we talked about this actually the pan and panel last year I think you can start seeing kids wearing the more of day when I was an extra coming there is really cool Packers programmed in with musicians wearing them so i think the other favorite artists all burner custom in-ear monitors when the artist first started wearing them they were doing that in like blush colors so they didn't think they're wearing hearing aids but now they want you to see you know so i think i think cousins are going to actually become more like recipe there you go kids are always looking for something the next thing the next cool thing he also tend to like things are expensive and clearly expensive so now they do what they do right if you know that you've got this you know custom in-ear monitors name from you're communicating and you know it's the hundred dollars a thousand dollars and I think the kids are going to kind of dig that aspect of it but it also happens this out that has to be a good pair so we look at the success that they've kind of beats because it's just a cool thing to have more than anything right I mean what's cooler than the Beast is actually having something its design you know custom whatever color whatever you know we want bling on a don't want laying on it and that's even cooler than a set of beads because it's actually custom view is kind of status symbol because no one else has that exact you know it's going to be a totally personalized custom earpiece I think that's a lot better than having the same thing everybody else has with white headphone right Brad Brad Brad yes I three more about what do you think times you think they'll become too high I the thing that keeps on coming back to my head is said that the at the high end of headphones the custom ten years are so you know I really can't think of the head normal price all night 21 but the days 13 and I have heard of custom when I'm sorry with some of these customers are at the top end or just spectacular and jerry has just flushed his brain and figured out a whole new variant if you get a chance to listen to the Jade's their teens in the it is booth over there there be coherent sound not not like anything I again actually try yes 52 I know I gesture teens are easy recommendation we're well into n I've got some of the ACS is and I've got some of the you erm and they're all very very good right back grow in so one of the so the thing that gets me is that yeah it's expensive but they're small and really worthwhile and then yeah you get a pair and it's like man I have heard like i'll give you that aggregate how many of you have a number the guy's boss safer the noise is to be present and speaking person well cone of silence oh that's what drivers sound like you don't have air conditioned TV noises are forget way more there's missing here is just being his I hadn't her first thank you off the check yet yes and welcome she just said I don't know music sound coming but not really is that good I mean the custom drill you got that kids I guess we'll go to Q&A now for everybody let's simply guys anything they want to close with Kim a comment question those do not get have customs are pink end up getting a precise case you won't have send them back you get a hot spot either here or something like that ask you guys about how it'll probably all have pretty much the same if we would like to have you talked to us remember earlier I said you need to talk to the tailor you know I mean did you want your slacks to hang a certain way you know whatever it is you need to talk to us because we will do everything to make sure that your experience is the best the communication is anything from the simple mask tell me it feels big or you know and i will try any questions let me personally but somebody much better at it than me will question you about okay let's let's let's get a little bit more than specifics and we'll work through that I mean even down to if there's a sore spot in here put some hypoallergenic lipstick on it put your piece in and send it to the lab we're going to do the best thing we can because you know we believe in tensile in this personal audio experience does that does that not mask acquires that I leave Omori products yeah oh I think you really need to come by both to the center here and take a listen the two different approaches to to audio you eat as their approach and I have my approach the thing I can say about the 16 and the 13 is there the only earpieces on the planet now that are actually face correct took me 15 years to figure out how to do it and i find it did so you're here in my earpiece you'll probably have a little bit more bottom in in a reference because it's more of a flat-bottomed NL that might speak to that but what I've been working on is having a very musical sound leader piece something that you know as a pleasing audio signature very wide frequency response and believe it or not between the tubes and ten and two o'clock area that is really critical to have perfect fit that's where you can really hear the articulation in the mix all the pans those kinds of things so if you come and listen kind of live with them for a little bit and kind of listen to the separation the articulation and then you know everybody has occurred it's kind of like you know salt and pepper basis kind of like spice right some people like nobody some people like more bass and you can stand so I think more of they're both going to be good sound an excellent summit earpieces think a lot of it will be your personal taste of what you like and you know the audio signature fine posted it sort of answer your question with a question who's your favorite musician