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good morning on Thursday November 30th episode 325 of the 359 podcast you know me I'm BVG and your host today the oh jeez the heroes of the Internet it's Ben Fox Ruben and Roger Chang yeah hey so we're gonna be talking about devoting the entire show to net neutrality you know obviously the headlines haven't stopped they've been tons of news has popped up on net neutrality we're gonna have another discussion another debate again about you know the true impact of net neutrality and whether or not the FCC's attempts to roll back the existing rules really is gonna destroy the Internet and democracy itself and democracy and life in society so let's yeah we'll get that so yeah yeah if you have any questions love to love to take your questions on this because I just love to discuss net neutrality if you have any lewd comments section Brian will pick out the best we will get to them three minutes 59 seconds from 3:00 to welcome to the 359 I'm Roger Chang I'm Ben Fox we're even the net neutrality debate is heating up over the last few days FCC Chairman occupy has been on a media tour defending his proposal to roll back the existing rules I actually points the finger at Twitter you know it's really the source of that's a real problem for the 18 T Co Reynold Stephenson yesterday said there's no need for bomb shelters or canned goods so I mean we won really gonna get into this and this especially this this point that algae pie kind of brings up that Twitter is actually more of a problem for the open Internet his justification is you know Twitter is now taking a little bit more of an active hand in I don't censoring but definitely stopping content that's deemed inappropriate or removing they're in the process of reviewing the verification of right sort accounts right depending on on who you are and the content that you should be occupies argument here that is that they're actually they're censoring what you see on the internet more so more than an repeal would be would yeah and I quote from IG PI the company has a viewpoint and uses the viewpoint to discriminate the problem is is that they're not the government right so Twitter is obviously an easy target there are a lot of problems with Twitter but at the same time their private industry and there are alternatives to Twitter yeah exactly that's the biggest thing is that like Facebook and Twitter like we I mean they call ups those platforms but really these are companies they're not they're not beholden to the public they're beholding to the shareholders and you know if they want to if they want to flex their their legal perspective or their their political perspective like they can't the government that the whole points government shouldn't be able to do that okay but that being said I would probably agree to a certain point with AT&T CEO and a GTI that the rhetoric has absolutely reached like a pretty intense froth and pie goes out of this way to call out Alyssa Milano for some reason is now an expert on net neutrality we all say that it will destroy democracy itself that's very very questionable in my opinion again these are my opinions on this but at the same time I don't like like my central issue with this is is that net neutrality started in 2015 a lot of the gloom and doom that was supposed to happen due to net neutrality it didn't happen in prior years before this regulatory regime was created well okay two points on those points which are they're all fair I I don't think the world is gonna go crashing down when these rules get repealed because as you said before 2015 nothing terrible is happening things were there were steps that the carriers were starting to take that showed that in terms of prioritizing traffic like that was the thing they were gonna do and I don't and I think that is still a thing they will do the world is gonna come crashing down the day after or maybe the week or the year after what I mean what the concern I think is is over the longer term some of these these actions the ISPs are now would be free to take would have longer term lasting damage to the Internet how it works such as such as pay prioritization the idea of creating these fast lanes to basically give preference to their own services maybe this doesn't happen right away but it happens down the line yeah theoretically I'm not saying 18t would do this but giving you no priority access to DIRECTV now to make sure that that video service always streams super clearly whereas competitive services like Netflix or YouTube you know house has to either pay or end up with you know buffering or quality issues with their video right and that sounds crappy obviously for consumers but is it destructive to democracy and it's debatable it is debatable and look the the fact here is that there with the repeal these rules there will be no guidelines there are no consequences for these companies and I think that's what's more for me more worrisome that these companies basically we have to trust these companies to do the right thing and I don't know I trust Comcast I can't even say that with this well look that's the issue is these companies I good all they they just they make money they that's their entire purpose right so whatever it takes to make more money is what they're probably gonna end up pursuing right so for things like fast lanes and paid prioritization that's that's a lucrative potential business for these companies yeah well we couldn't get to all of this I know minutes I'm shocked I know it's a complicated issue we're probably gonna have another discussion ahead of the the net neutrality though which is on December 14th but till then check us out CNN I'm Roger Chang I'm Ben Fox Reba thanks for listening where do we go from here okay I have a point I have a point that we didn't get to which is a matter of investment yes so IG pi mentions that investment from broadband and wireless infrastructure or investment for broadband and wireless infrastructure was down in the past two years since net neutrality past which down three point six billion dollars is five percent and he claims that that's the first time investment from ISPs has actually been down since the Internet start so he definitely sliced and diced the numbers in a very specific way to present his argument yes I think the total number of spending has gone down but you have to remember in the years past we had huge amounts of investments from companies like Verizon FiOS in laying down fiber and they ended that project before net neutrality like before I met Ned - Charlie stuff really took off right so there's that and there's the fact that a lot of the wireless investment further the investment in telecom is converted from more expensive wire line to more efficient wireless right rather than running through physical lines all you have to do is like string up a box right or thought up the tower now even put up a tower because those towers are there literally put a box on Tower it's a lot less expensive than building the tower itself we're building or digging up actual ground to lay down lines is way more expensive I I think those are all fair points I I would argue though that under net neutrality the incentive to invest is significantly reduced if you're not allowed to charge anybody any more or less for a better or worse service what is the point in improving your service the point you can just give everybody the same lessor points competition because look we've got four national wireless carriers and they're all right now they're letting each other up trying to get you to switch over their business and everyone's moving to 5g no one's not moving if I'd you know was not investing in these next generation networks and net neutrality these rules aren't going to affect that whether or not the rules are in place these companies still have to invest because they need to be competitive it makes sense if for instance if you know it's just Comcast or if it's just Verizon or it's just t-mobile which is by the case well know on on the broadband profit some access the wireless side that's not the case there's still lots of competitors I would agree to that point that you know in terms of the home broadband side competition isn't quite there I would say the wireless side that's really where everything is going anyways there's still money being poured into these networks regardless of whether or not their rules hold on are you arguing that 5g will allow me to cut the cord completely and I would just be a Verizon Wireless customer and that way I would that would be my broadband I mean it's as simple as that but Verizon just announced yesterday that they're gonna start introducing residential 5g service in five cities in the u.s. next year starting with Sacramento so imagine instead of a cable box or a DSL modem you have a 5g modem sitting at home it has basically a direct wireless link to whatever Verizon facility centers nearby and you're getting you know 100 gigs of speed which would actually sure I mean like the problem has always been that the broadband providers are essentially regional monopolies right and that would actually ensure some real competition in the marketplace that's definitely that's been the issue with Verizon FiOS I think Verizon FiOS and also Google Fiber to a certain extent was viewed as a potential competitor to try to puncture those monopolies and whatever reason they both fell apart vaio still exist hearted it became it just became part of the Machine like it's just as it uses the same business practices as the cable company that's right like in terms of like sort of complicated pricing packages and bundles it's essentially another cable company that's a competitor which it's fine whatever Google Fiber was sort of this true kind of disruptive force but it's all part because it was just so expensive to build around infrastructure mm-hmm and so the wireless 5g idea would be the potential right white knight yeah and by the way I do want to bring up the point in terms of fast lanes 8:18 TCO yesterday I should brought up an interesting point in certain situations actually fast lanes do make sense whether it's healthcare why don't you hold on to tell people what fastly oh sorry fast lane well we were talking about pay prioritization the idea that a company like AT&T or Verizon would charge a customer or sort of a back-end customer not the consumer right like in Netflix like a Netflix more money to guarantee faster guaranteed service to the customer now we've been using video as the primary example of why that's like terrible because like basically Netflix would have to pay more to assure video gets delivered to you and they can theoretically pass those charges down to you but in in certain situations like it's self-driving cars or maybe a robot surgeon that requires a cell connection you would want to pay extra for that right like that in those situations safety issue yes there are safety issues then and that you'd actually want to pay for you want to be able to allow for that kind of level of priority access okay and in that case would a net neutrality regime like not allow ISPs or wireless providers to charge more for those types of high level connections that's the thing those existing rules we're a little bit less clear with the mobile sorry thing and so and look when when the former FCC Chairman Tom wheeler brought those rules about he also noted that like we're not gonna fall everything to the letter launches of the utilities like we think theoretically could use those rules to enforce but they also were trying to open those rules up to the point where they were gonna be flexible enough with modern technology like it was the this is where it gets really complicated where like the the debate kind of gets a little blurred the reason why title tube was brought in was because you offered a legal framework for the FCC to use to enforce these rules it didn't mean they actually had to enforce them all it just meant that they had back in title to being utility style right the same rules are used to enforce the telephone companies right which every cup every ISP every Internet service provider hates more rules more regulation yeah it's way more rules than they had to do again it was clear like the FCC didn't have to use those rules to enforce you know certain situations but they could if they wanted if there was a abusive I don't know it's it's interesting you mentioned that because it's a similar argument as you know under the IG pie consideration we're giving the ISPs more power that they could potentially abuse but under net neutrality the FCC is now granted utility level powers that they could potentially have brings against the ISPs yeah it makes sense to me that the ISPs would obviously dislike net neutrality because the FCC could use it as a bludgeon against them if they wanted to absolutely so ultimately like they're there there was no great Milgram like everyone says the middle ground should be Congress Congress needs to step in and create rules what Congress doing anything and sure that's a good idea so what I'm hearing here is it's essentially a case of hate the player not the game but see ISPs that could be held accountable however I see sorbian amounts of potential abuse in these situations now I like that you brought up the consideration for being able to prioritize speeds to doctors and important rescue for safety reasons for safety reasons that's magnificent how many consumers suffer at the hands of that I like this analogy that came up in the chat yeah from Joseph he says net neutrality is equivalent to forcing all restaurants to offer all-you-can-eat buffets now that's a really interesting way to look at it but I'd like to tack onto that from my own personal perspective with a giant credit card premium over top of all of it potentially that's if neutrality gets rolled back you're saying exactly yeah yeah I mean I don't know if I'd necessarily would fully accept that analogy like I think that neutrality would allow every restaurant basically I guess fair game in terms of opening their business they could basically create whatever restaurant whatever business they want they can offer whatever food they want I think the idea is that there'd be some sort of level playing field for every restaurant say yeah I guess I'm thinking we got a strip mall right there be equal spots for every single Reggie you do whatever you want with that spot but the point is that there is no prioritization there's no preference being paid to McDonald's over some mom-and-pop shop I would argue that the the primary issue is a matter of competition the the problem is is that you know the the companies are going to do as best they can to make as much money as they can and the thing that prevents them from doing that is competition and the problem has been and continues to be that the regional monopolies from ISPs broadband providers and it's interesting that you mentioned 5g could actually solve some of those problems because regardless of whether it's under net neutrality or without net neutrality nobody wants to see customers end up getting screwed and have to pay more money or have to you know be buffered we know nobody wants to see that I mean imagine I mean like company you don't want to see that we don't you know look I I think it's it's obviously we do not want to see customers because we're customers end up getting screwed and just have to pay more for worse service I mean like that would be obviously by the way far worse situation I do want to at least allow for the the fact that in terms of customers ultimately pay more that is a good I think that's the way way long-term nightmare scenario like I don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon really it only took two years for Time Warner to screw me over well alright maybe just for Brian then but I would just say like in terms of it being sort of this broad practice that everyone just sort of jumps into like they're not gonna start chart like maybe Netflix the other issue is that companies like Netflix are probably willing to stomach the costs whether the past on the customer is debatable maybe a little bit over time because this will get repealed if it goes the real the bigger issue is less about Netflix but like the next Netflix right the idea that if you're this small companies small small start-up trying to you know create your own video app like all sudden you have to pay this extra premium and if you can't pay this premium your services worse than that for your service and worse than that price and thus you can't stay in business yeah like a Netflix is not gonna be threatened or damaged by this at all because doctor they're a bigger player they might actually be they might have an edge because of this because it's really the smaller players that you have to worry about right but that's like Netflix is profits would be impacted I would say because they could potentially end up having to pay more yeah I would say impact the impact would be a lot less than you know the next startup trying to be I also don't I don't really understand why Google and Netflix are arguing for these potential future startup competitors it doesn't actually make that much sense to me why are they saying like I think if we want a free and open Internet under net neutrality because we want to ensure that our future competitor that's gonna eat our lunch could it could do that but that's that's the thing like they also there is a recognition that they could not exist without the idea of the open Internet cuz then I mean the open Internet fostered their ability to become giant companies so there there aren't another principle it's also good PR right this is a very very good PR and make a rules they came Netflix and Google did not start in 2015 under net neutrality they continued to grow under rules that were much lighter touch which is what IG PI is arguing well the only issue is the the the practices that I think everyone's afraid of didn't really become a legitimate threat you know a few years ago a few years before the net neutrality debate really started getting hot so you could argue about like whether or not the lack of rules had any impact because I mean those a lot of those techniques weren't available yet mmm-hmm let's get the question yeah I'm talking sorry no it's great conversation though and it's really engaging and we've gotten a lot of commentary I would just from my own personal perspective on this as a customer the the the critical flaw in this entire plan is that you don't have a lot of options for your ISP providers and yeah there you are I literally have one so that means I am prisoner to their terms and services until I move yeah and I think that's or - I have one right I have I'm one of the lucky and I think that's disturbing and disgusting until they can find another way to actually evenly distribute some of these providers then this is a completely or you just have cable or just have telecom I just have telecom just writer in your weight I have spectrum Spector's a cable company okay you don't have an option not in my neighborhood the Verizon DSL not files not to my knowledge every time I mean maybe it's changed in the last month but the last time I looked it up it said it wasn't available you hooked up files fast isn't available I'm willing to bet Verizon basic DSL the other issue is DSL is not as fast that's what I was yeah but you do have to some you do have to isp right but dsl is not yes is that competitive it's not broadband is it yeah so ish I'm sticking with the principles of my argument all right all right I still find it damaging and as somebody who for a career provides content on the Internet I don't want to see anyone else in control of that right mm-hmm so what are some of the questions well let's go right in and start taking some of the commentary Matthew - who says I like the spirit of net neutrality especially when it comes to the consumer end of the internet however as an engineer the wording is problematic traffic engineering and quality of service are important aspects of moving data across the Internet he's got fantastic points I'd love to hear an expansion on that and to kind of bridge off the concept of you know the negative aspects of net neutrality we're already kind of getting it may i dicked around from people like YouTube Google and Twitter as drone wolf media points out if Facebook all the social media they're in control of the media of what you consume right so the idea is like are we really handing that traffic direction off to better people in this well that's the bit it depends on whether or not I guess you trust Verizon yeah it's sort of a no-win situation there yeah the other point we wanted to bring up is this is this is a very partisan issue right when the Democrats are in control its Pro net neutrality prone under trial rules when the Republicans are in control it is maybe still prone unto chao-li concept but no rules right so you know we had under Obama the rules put in under Trump rules are coming out if directly a Democratic president comes in the next term we could have this debate all over again yeah and it could have tire Levi's they could just be back and forth like a whiplash effect for the next hundred years isn't that essentially all politics yeah pretty much yeah but like with this especially there's there's a lot of investment that goes into it and you know a lot of businesses say that they would like to have some level of expectations so it can be confident to spend this money so I don't see that as a positive for anybody that you're just gonna have a net neutrality get taken out and put back in over and over and over it and depending on who's oh just like oh wait it's the Democrats all right let's roll back the plans right Michael Browns is I believe the loss of net neutrality will force companies to create partnership bundles with ISPs comcast has already created their ecosystem for service providing we think that's a slippery slope bundles in terms of like with with content providers like Netflix assuming this what do you meant right that's that's one of the nightmare scenarios that a lot of people have been talking like we have to pay the extra five dollars right or like you get the social bundle right III think that that argument at least in the short and medium term is to me a red herring I don't see that happening I think the first ISP or broadband provider that actually attempts to do that like people will riot in the streets and freak out I just don't actually having done like if you pay for if you didn't pay for the bundle would you like not yet just like the other one other potential would be that instead of doing a straight-out bundle and saying you don't have access to this otherwise maybe providing faster or better access or like for pay access or whatever so they treat it more as a positive than a negative like if you don't pay us you're way more optimistic than I sir no I'm saying that that would be a way for them to convince you to pay more money and then spinning it as a positive I mean I trying to say I don't know how effective it is to do that with like with throttling for websites or say like websites all kind of load pretty fast like you have to like really dramatically slowed down to make it worse right I mean for me the biggest issue is in video right because that's the one that takes a lot of bandwidth requires a lot of bandwidth and the cord cutters I'm just saying video yeah video in general well I'm saying that it's going to use SERP table television over-the-air television eventually oh yeah yeah so that needs to be a priority yeah but that's things like that's the one we're like do they be prioritize or prioritize that like you would see a drastic impact if they prioritize or D prioritize the video versus like Facebook loads pretty quick wherever you are if it loads like a second longer is that really gonna be a problem right IIIi still think you're being way more optimistic III think it could be potentially a lot worse than that mmm I foresee a lot of gatekeeping going on Josh Buddha asks will ISPs be able to use their power to sense their political beliefs or will they just be able to create the fast lanes for the certain services I think all on the table so that's that's interesting he mentions that because that was a G PI's exact argument about Twitter yeah is censoring political beliefs that they're doing currently I mean like I'm not gonna but they take a position one way or another related to Twitter this is an ecosystem of animosity we're gonna be pitting with ISPs at Wars with actual content creators or managers I look I'm gonna maybe I'm naive I don't think the ISPs would sensor based on political is it just they've been there depends on where the checks are coming another film no because no but to your point it's about money it's like who's paying for what but that's not about politics that's about business it eventually can be about politics and oftentimes has proven to be the case hey how many paid congressmen there are they're all paid there yeah you know what I mean and well including Isaac Verizon pie mr. corruptable already this is from what I haven't looked at the political contributions of the major telcos but generally speaking if you're a big enough company they're all pretty much you pay both sides yeah you pay Republicans and you pay Democrats because you're you're picking a winner regardless of who actually gets voted in all right Ryan Reiser what country should I move to if this goes bad I can move to any European country because a family what should I do India it just passed super strict net neutrality rules that's and I think interesting in the EU I believe there are rules in place so you're like covered in the EU I wouldn't suggest UK obviously because of brexit okay if you do actually end up moving to Europe because net neutrality got rolled back please contact us because we would love to profile oh yeah and be like this guy left united states over net neutral so I don't I don't know that a lot of people would do that but who knows yeah I mean that's really sticking to your principles I guess expanding on that Nicola and the chat says computer file had a very nice balance calm video about net neutrality from the UK perspective so we want to point out and shout out computer file go on and check that out if we're interested for some of the more international impacts that this could have definitely Josh boy de how likely do you think it is that ISPs will police themselves and keep things the same as it is now yeah that that's the million-dollar question yeah you like that's what ultimately I do you trust your ISP to do the right thing and most ISPs have terrible reputation right so very hard to defend them I mean like you're talking about Time Warner Cable now called spectrum would Comcast's like the like any time their consumer surveys they tend to you know go way on the bottom so beyond that because I feel like these companies attendant it's easy to rag on these companies what's I think more striking to me is the I wonder bring up this point zero rating this this is a concept in wireless where you can offer someone service or data or like video and not have that haven't eaten to your data cap basically like YouTube for instance can pay Verizon to ensure that you can watch all the YouTube videos you want and it doesn't hurt your data cap right and so you know what a lot of these companies did early on last year 18 T for instance in offered or Verizon offered go 90 it's video service as a zero rate service which meant you can watch all the go 90 video you wanted and it didn't hurt your data cap which is which is great right you can watch as much go and accept there's nothing right but right there the FCC under the previous administration actually took the the carriers to TAS and we were actually investigating the carrier's for this practice because it was anti-competitive the idea that you're prioritizing your own services in making it easier more beneficial for the customer to use your service over somebody else's and then once I July the new administration new administration came in they basically squash that you squash that whole investigation so whatever is fine right so your argument we talked about this ahead of the show your argument was that zero rating could be utilized as a blueprint in the future by ISPs right basically they've clearly set precedent that they're cool with prioritization of sort of their own services and so if there are no rules in place that they could very easily take that and repeat it with other services right my argument to that is I don't think anybody is not watching YouTube or Facebook or you know video on Facebook or whatever because it is or isn't eating into your data cap I understand the point in prioritizing but at the same time it's not it's not preventing consumers from consuming one by one all right we got time for just a couple more one more from - I thought I heard a rumor that Comcast dropped net neutrality language from their agreement from their agreement the truth - that it's a little bit mixed day so they did drop some language about promising I think they promised not to offer fast lanes that this whole prioritization we've been talking about Maggie actually mega written actually wrote a story I think two days ago two days ago on this issue and Comcast had gone back to her and said that they had no plans to do pay prioritization mm-hmm at least for now I thought the fast lane was reason they're horrible tomatoes and all be all of this entire conversation like for now it's okay for now well what happens tomorrow yeah the comment that they have is Comcast hasn't entered into any pay prioritization agreements period and we have no plans to do so sorry sorry that's BS this is way too exploitable neutrality has it been repealed yet that is apps from these people right and they probably don't want to give them to you and the question is is that if if this thing is okay then what's the next thing that's not okay what are the new red lines that are actually going to be established I think there are no red lines right well there will be from consumers I mean like I I do think that consumers will go against some of this stuff if it does create these nightmare scenarios that people don't actually like and if they're like what what can you do if your consumer and if you're like not happy with this can you walk away except the competition's doing the exact same thing so what's your well there is no competition right if you have a broadband provider that's the only one but you can argue against it and you know create a lot of argue against against them what does that do though it's a good question I don't know like when they end up buckling under that pressure or whether they just say screw you there's no one else that you could actually go to yeah definitely as a 14 year customer of Time Warner Spectrum due to lack of options they're gonna screw over come get me anyways we are almost out of time yeah I just want to bring up a comment from Ryan Reiser who's a man after my own heart right now as the techie I'm terrified there are just too many people that don't understand this on that note we hope that we're trying to help round yeah a lot of conversation and commentary and the chat about like I don't know how to explain this to my family you know my mom doesn't care and it's like this is why you should care mm-hm and I mean even I I feel like I have a grasp on it but I'm just look I'm just angry and in fact I think Corner far as I'm Lord of all of my internet into canteens and hide in the basement right but part part of the real problem with neutrality it is a very complicated and wonky topic and there is a temptation to like sum it up in the most dramatic way to get people to care like this is the ISPs censoring what you see now like it's it's not truth of it it's not gonna be that dramatic it's it's gonna be something but it may not be that but well the I can look at this as censorship is always bad let's think it's that's it's not as black and white as X we don't know no that is the unsane that is the knee-jerk reaction it's an action I'm right mm-hmm not only that but like not only censorship is always bad but it's I think in many ways easier to describe what net neutrality is it's the current regime that we live in and all Internet traffic is treated the same way who wouldn't agree with that right right but I would argue that that very simplistic view is a feel-good concept that otice much hornier and every company every isp says yeah we also believe that that we they've all said that we also blue we just don't want any rules to enforce anything in case we want to do something else mmm that's or we're gonna treat it all the same way except the people that pay us more money for specialty everybody gets treated the same way except that guy he gets treated well no the same way even their argument would be well we're gonna charge everyone the same premium access so we are charging we're treating everyone the same way they all just have a pay more mm-hmm yeah I personally don't have a problem with Netflix playing more I have a problem with Netflix customers paying more so it's that's also the debatable argument is is netflix going to end up eating those costs if the ISPs make them pay more for faster lanes or are we and and you know one of those issues is fine with me and the other one obviously is it for me for me like it's that's a bit of a short side view like it's it's not the thing versus just not next company right what is the next startup that's gonna make it big like is that even gonna be able to exist because there are no rules that's the bigger concern for me I'm crazy Ajit PI used car internet salesmen and I'm here to pass the costs on to you all right we got to go out on an interesting note here I've been keeping this one in my back pocket again we have so many great questions and comments in the chat we can't get to all of them but be sure we'll be having plenty more these days more about those this is fantastic thanks everybody but from stellar tech if net neutrality reaches a repeal could this potentially create a backlash for an alternative form of internet new editor with a new protocol in communication this is a really fascinating thought because like a separate internet came out of nowhere it's like oh we'll just always have television and telephones and lo and behold through down the way it's a very interesting idea I feel like we're in the English nation that's what that was in the HBO show with Silicon Valley like okay disaggregated yeah non-centralized internet that would take a really long time and I don't really see that as a possibility however if the the providers end up creating such draconian measures that a lot of people really don't like them it does open the door to other potential ISPs I can't believe I'm actually gonna mention this name stary yeah like those guys so there could there are some other possible competitors out there and if things get so bad with your you know spectrum or Comcast there would be considerable in the margin is 5g yeah yeah and they've been in pilot I think in Boston for a really long time it sounded like a really interesting idea I don't know how far it's actually gotten off the ground but if the current providers end up doing a really bad job with their customers people would look hopefully to something like star yeah I'm a little skeptical of a new internet just because like these forms of communication evolved because they're better than the last one if this new internet is only like regulation-free it's open like it's just been neutrality plus yeah I don't think that's enough people to switch over to another internet like it just the idea of a new internet Roger where did your attitude about stick it to the man come on he is the man now he's objective about this whole thing you guys have actually done a really good job and I do appreciate that a heart on my sleeve bleeding heart yeah reaction everything I I what we need you don't read on me right exactly don't read on offer a perspective that's all now this has been very informative and very helpful I do feel like we could round up the entire possession with a bunch of quotes from Malcolm from Jurassic Park including while you were debating whether or not you could did you ask yourselves if you should and I'm gonna steal this stray from Nicola in the chat life finds away there you go so on that note it's time to say goodbye for now it really is Wow we went way over yeah this is a fantastic episode and awesome chatter yeah I love the chatter - love the the comments it's great thanks guys it's good weight in the week right weight Thursday right it's Thursday a good end the podcast weekend yes yes I'm working Martin anyways if you like these should I could said on see that our podcast is available in iTunes tune in sit your soundcloud Feedburner google play music and you can access us on amazon echo and I'm Ben Fox Reuben shank BBG see you all next week next week woo you