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welcome to the 359 I'm Ben Fox Ruben I'm Joni Salzmann satellite radio service Sirius XM agreed to buy Pandora no not the jewelry boutique for 3.5 billion dollars today a move that should help Pandora fend off Spotify so Joan how do you expect this to change music streaming or if it will in any way well what we've seen happen as streaming music has become sort of the de-facto way that people listen to music now some companies have clearly sprinted into the lead and those are I'm sorry they that's Spotify and that's Apple music Pandora was the biggest reggae music service for a long time that streaming music existed but as these other companies have been able to come out with more flexible ways of listening to music pandora has been struggling to keep its listeners and keep growing so a combination like this could be a shot in the arm for Pandora to start competing against these rivals in places where nobody really has a lead yet and that's in the car so if I'm Apple music or our fun Spotify should I be worried at all like is this at all an issue for them or are they so much bigger and more relevant than Pandora that you know their Pandora kind of still is an also-ran despite this deal I don't think that either of the service either of those services should count out Pandora in any respect and I certainly don't think that they should count them out if they a Pandora no longer really has to worry as much about funding itself it doesn't have to worry about its own stock price anymore doesn't have to worry about hitting growth metrics anymore that was always a pain point for Pandora being publicly traded all out there on its own company so it would be foolish for them to count out a company that has so much data about music and what people like to listen to getting more technology getting an entry point into the car and getting this body of of millions of subscribers that are already paying a lot more than people pay for streaming music to get serious so we were talking about this ahead of the show one of the interesting ideas and I'm not actually sure if this is technologically possible yet but maybe this is something that serious is hoping to do eventually is taking Pandora's streams or like some sort of like on-demand service from Pandora and then streaming into your car using satellites is that like a thing is that what they're hoping to do so I don't know about satellites am i right now or possible I thought them an email asking just that question to see if they could let me know if it's possible for Sirius to beam algorithmic or personalized stream of music to each account folder in a car yeah don't know but it would be interesting if they could well try to follow up with that if we do get an answer next up I mean Amazon threw a bunch of spaghetti at the wall last week releasing over a dozen new devices including a wall clock a microwave and many new echo devices I was there it was kind of intense John do you have any do you have any questions is there anything you'd like that you're dying to know about this assault of devices like throwing them everybody are beaming them at your head it's very aggressive which one I mean which one of them do you think is really the most interesting for Amazon to be going into as a company ok probably the one that everybody should be paying attention to is the new echo dot because despite the fact that Amazon comes out with all these different devices the one that's by far the biggest seller is the echo dot so that's the smell like hockey puck yeah and it's like 50 dollars it goes on sale for like $30 a lot of the time and that's what's really convinced a lot of people to do a lot more with their voice assistance put them into their homes all that other stuff so the fact that they refresh the echo dot is the most interesting the thing that I was like repeatedly complaining to the Alexa executives about and they were like bending over backwards trying to convince me like no no this is actually really cool was the wall clock and by the time I was done with like I was like maybe the wall clock is kind of cool I don't know like so I might be forced to like buy it I'm not sure but we'll we'll find out last I did want to get to this Google is celebrating its 10th anniversary of Android we've got a bunch of stories about the milestone on CNET so please check them out on Ben Fox Rubin I'm Johnny salesman thanks for listening this is still in you know when we come back on the ominous music Oh random so I don't really have a lot of control really I like election but like the order is completely out of my control this breaks my illusion this shatters my illusion that you are the controller of all things podcast then reason within reason even even Brian is not evident yes so as always let's go ahead and jump into the chat and take your questions and comments about today's top stories of course everybody's chiming in with what their favorite music services please you need to do that I myself subscribe to Spotify and I'm an avid user and beta tester when it first came out for Google Play Music Ben and Joan here's a good question and I'm just kind of extrapolating this from other comments that have kind of come together what how would have this has change course if somebody else had purchased Pandora where would this event if maybe Spotify bottom out or tidal bottom out yeah that have really kind of changed things up well definitely that depends on who it would be so if Spotify bought Pandora I would be shocked because Pandora's greatest asset is the fact that it has all this data over a deck like since people have had smartphones pretty much the main way they've stream music is via Pandora and so pandora has tons of listening data and also what they call their Music Genome Project and that's where humans that are experts in every genre of music tagged every piece of music that's available on Pandora for certain attributes like and it depends on the genre like if it's fastly pop or slow and it's it's a very complicated process but that's how they do their algorithms and they deliver music that's tailored towards your tastes it'd be really interesting because modify is already pretty good at that and so they really would be I don't know what they would be buying Pandora for other than that technology and Spotify seems to be doing pretty good on that on its own but that's just one possibility you know if title that was another one that came out bought Pandora that would be really interesting because title where would the money have come from title has no money has no money also doesn't have a whole lot of subscribers so yeah so maybe that's that one was just like so going back coming back to what you were talking about was Spotify that they're also really good at this do they have like their own version of The Music Genome Project they like do they talk it up as much as Pandora does because I remember this was ages ago this was like more than five years ago this was like the big selling point about Pandora and that's what a lot of news stories were about we were like check out this cool thing the Pandora is doing where they're somehow able to connect like a bluegrass song and a rap song because so many different people like yeah listen to these two around the same time or something so is that something that like Spotify just figured out how to do independently they've just done it in a different way so Pandora started out with this idea that music experts would identify specific attributes of songs and then they would use the data of listening not just to like correlate if you like this song and you like this song then someone who likes song a will also probably like song B you know that's basically kind of the Jenna that's the underlying process that Spotify does it's mostly all based on relationships between different types of listeners to music and comparing and contrasting and seeing where things fit so you're what you're saying is since my friends have terrible taste I'm screwed no it's it's because people who have similar tastes to you also listen to things that you might like yeah so not necessarily your friends at all right yeah that's the underlying power of Spotify as platform in addition to the fact they have you know like rap caviar is a curated plateless that they have that's something where where data definitely underlies how the curators of that list put it together they're able to identify breaking artists quicker because Spotify has the data that it does but there's also curatorial elements to Spotify as well so that's Spotify backup Spotify you don't know me I don't know they do I've appreciated a lot of the disco in Spotify and grated the way I listen to music is I'll just listen to the same song 30 times a day for like a whole week like maybe maybe I'm a serial killer that's not normal what's your kill music epic it's very relaxing it's actually what we're listening to a news you actually might be a really good candidate for Pandora less on Pandora listeners in the past traditionally have tended to be what people called Leanback listen they're not the kind of person that wants to build their own playlist that's really dedicated to finding the hit new artist before anybody else does they just want good music that appeals to them without a lot of work traditionally that's been Pandora's strong suit Spotify has become better at that and that's what's helped generate Spotify as mass appeal is that it's not just going for people that are hardcore music fans it's been able to appeal to that broad range of people yeah the thing the thing that ultimately turned me off of Pandora that I stopped listening to Pandora nearly as much is that they restricted your plays yeah so that goes to what you were talking about is that Pandora was first and to actually convince the labels to go along with them they agreed to more restrictive deals then ultimately what Spotify before it was even more tense than that so Pandora was first because the labels are like in in the progressive genius of labels they were just kind of like no we don't want to do streaming sorry you can't have our music so Peter was like okay then I'll just get this other kind of license where I can play whatever I want I'll pay you royalties you have no say and whether or not I play it or not but I can't give people exactly what they want to hear when they want to hear it and they can only skip a few number of songs it's a statutory license that allows digital providers to provide music online without having a direct deal with a label what yeah thing yeah and the music industry is complicated it's super complicated oh yeah but basically that's why I mean like the labels are like not super big they were not big fans musicians and the labels or not big fans of Pandora for a really long time because that and that's why companies like Spotify we're able to as music industries started to realize you can't just ignore the Internet you can't ignore progress people are gonna want to listen to music this way they were able to come in didn't have any baggage and strike these deals like Spotify does that makes it really competitive so people like you would turn to it because you can listen to whatever you want on repeat or like click through it with some ads yes yeah I pay at this point but yes exactly okay so have either of you guys used Pandora in the past I know once upon a time a few moons ago I was subscribed just for poops and giggles but like I didn't really use it that much because I am one of those guys who is really anal retentive about my library so that's why I gravitated towards Spotify and my music what was your experience with Pandora over history well I have an odd one because I've been covering the I kind of try out the mall and I don't use one enough for it's a really know me I don't know well you've talked a little bit about your experience I use Pandora for a while I did a trial run of Apple music I actually was pretty impressed at their playlists and their ability to like I just put on like bluegrass and like we got an airbnb and just played like Apple music for three hours or something like that or like even longer and but like I didn't feel like paying for it anymore so I didn't do that and now I'm paying for Spotify and whatever when I say I'm paying for Spotify I mean my little brother is paying for a Spotify I'm on a family plan so yeah but like I'm not like pirating his or whatever I'm not stealing his accounts right right you're looking for it just not you the Reubens are paying for it the Reubens as a clan there's a lot of Reubens is that like a gigantic family account where like every Reuben is involved yeah I didn't know that Andy Rubin founder of Android he's on he's on the account yeah and they are good buddies yes taking a few more questions from the chat our Wallops says this feels like a down-and-out company buying each other up like when Kmart bought Sears Pandora and Sirius XM are behind the times ya rough truth is that true about serious though you could say that in a way technologically serious is there their biggest weakness is that they're terrible at mobile they're terrible at streaming they're always intended to be in the car as they as they were their their automobile integrations there they have been a really profitable company for a long time in an industry music that is not profitable Clear Channel I heart I think is in bankruptcy protection none of the streaming music music services are profitable at least none that are operating at scale so that makes them a bit of a unicorn like you know like you may not agree with their product you may not like it but they actually managed to make money and initially that doesn't and hasn't for a really long time you said it over and over again we said it today music industry is a miserable place to try to maintain Spotify isn't profitable yet oh no wow getting less profit we're looking at their market cap it's worth thirty billion dollars okay trillion trillion dollar retailer that makes no money ya know they don't make any money speaking of James is asking if we wonder if this will actually affect Spotify stock price you know that's a good question I didn't check I should look right now when I checked earlier it didn't appear to have impacted them at all Pandora is a much smaller player so going from Spotify his market cap which is thirty 1 billion dollars Pandora's they're getting bought for 3.5 billion dollars so it's 10 percent roughly so yeah it might impact Spotify stock price a little bit but probably not a ton plus from reading your story it looks like Sirius is going to keep Spotify independent for now and they're just gonna like kind of advertise each other services yeah on the other one so it doesn't look like this is gonna be like this intense sudden integration between the two which yeah like if I'm Spotify I don't have to worry that all of a sudden like my competition is gonna come out with like this brand new thing to come after me yeah yeah that's true but you should we it should be noted that Pandora even though Spotify is much bigger than Pandora by a longshot it in the US which is where Pandora pretty much only operates anymore more people listen to Pandora than listen to Spotify in the US which I find shocking yeah because Spotify is spot on is by far the most listened to and most subscribed to streaming music service but that's worldwide and they have a lot of international you know it's their Swedish company so they they're not even you know a US grown company it's not like they started out here that's another one that just makes it even more complicated international rights and restrictions now we've got tons of listeners from all over the globe in the chat talking about how X service is not available in a place kind of thing it's kind of nice that we do have so many different varieties out there some people still get the short end of the stick regardless right now who is in fact at the top of the totem pole as far as fiscal Michael Brown is asking how long before Apple music dethrones Spotify it would take a little take a while because Apple musics greatest strength is in the u.s. because Apple musics greatest strength is being on the iPhone and the iPhone is the dominant is that the dominant phone in the u.s. is it that close I believe it's it's in general they're 50/50 yes so like everywhere else in the world Android rules smartphones and Apple musics greatest strengths is that Apple music is baked into your iPhone it's not necessarily because it's a better service I mean it's up to it's up to everybody to decide which service is the best for them but it's not necessarily because Apple has far and away the best service so it'll be harder for Apple to be growing as strong as Spotify is everywhere else in the world that's not the US but right now it looks like Apple music and Spotify in terms of subscribers are about neck-and-neck Apple music might be a little bit bigger than Spotify in the US which is the biggest music market but rest of world total whole world Spotify is the biggest by listeners and by subscribers followed by Apple music and then the rest is kind of a grab X Pandora's definitely still very strong Deezer is strong in various certain markets google play music is out there YouTube music is out there not doing great titles out there not doing great it really is kind of a two-way contest between Pandora I'm sorry between Spotify and Apple music and so it's interesting that pandora is getting what could be some support so do we think we're going to actually see any of these competitive aspects start to benefit our consumer pricing no of course not I mean like considering all these companies are unprofitable anyway so you can't really beat ten dollars a month for all the music in the world and that's and that's all decided by the labels really you got the tent you got the $9.99 a month you've got basically like $15 a month for family streaming plans and then you've got those sort of like in-between II services like Amazon has one where you pay like four dollars that's right Amazon has one two you pay like three dollars to $7 somewhere in there and you get some perks and some flexibility but not all of it yeah I don't think there's gonna be much change in the pricing like I said that's stuff that's decided by the labels the labels say you might not for this and you can't offer that there's a possibility that there might be some promotional window with Pandora trying to get give itself a shot in the arm in for a short term but from what you said it sounds like there's really not a lot of profit margin for them to play with to begin with now so if they are gonna do it and you're really interested in trying it out I guess you're probably not gonna have a very long runway to do it they're not gonna they're not gonna have a lot of money to mess around with yeah who is the cheapest right now is it that Amazon $2 a month like I think it Aries way I think it's three and I think you have to own an echo device only listen on the echo yeah so that's that's an upfront cost where you have to at least spend let's say you get an echo dot while it's on sale you would have to spend a minimum of $30 to get one which isn't like the worst thing in the world but it's every dollars another service right so it's three dollars but you have to own the specific device and unless you do some like interesting juryrigg where you but I've seen people put echo dot in their cars you don't it's not like a mobile listening thing like with your phone or anything like that it's it's just for our home listening yeah here's a question from our old friends friend Roy is the purchase of Pandora a strategic move from Sirius XM after they failed to stop the music modernization act for paying new royalty under the classic under for classic music before 1972 Wow good question no I don't think it is because Pandora's been playing those royalties for a really long time so if they were trying to find some sort of loophole then Pandora's not the way to forget about it oh my god you actually knew the answer to that well well John Mme not to confuse with mixed martial arts the music Modernization Act probably like I'm so relieved you're here it would have been like yes really that's a really that's a really specific question and in its so props that you well done sir enjoy our familiar and all fairness both versions of the MMA are equally violent do you think any streaming services will start to bring out some hardware well Spotify there are rumors that it's working on stuff like that like a speaker I can't remember I don't know there's always rumors and I mean like obviously like Apple music already has whatever the home pod Hamazon already has tons of speakers yeah that's true Google makes their what do they call their home the Google on the home so already a lot of by nature of the fact that tech is such a consolidated thing and all these giants are they have their fingers and everything a lot of the services already have hardware but Spotify since its founding you know like Daniel X talks about like light bulbs that would play music for you so it's something that's baked into there I would be into that my boss why didn't Amazon do that if Amazon was gonna come out with a wall clock then Spotify should do some sort of like goofy I like that idea that sounds really stupid singing light balls especially if it's a color changing light bulb you know but like it kind of like does like stroke kaleidoscopic or strobing like while it's playing different kinds of music so except any speaker that's gonna fit in the package that small it's gonna sound like duty yeah okay hey bfr thanks for ruining everything amazon should drop prime music and launched which music that would make twitch compete with youtube in both video and music streaming there's an idea not a bad idea yeah the problem with twitch is is that it largely is perceived as you know kind of a gaming network so if you do twitch music I guess like a lot of people are just going to assume that it's a bunch of like you know sounds from Zelda or whatever that it's just the super mario thing on repeat but either way I think they're gonna stick with prime music because prime is like the much better known service and like that's that's what they're really like building around so that's that's my expectation but it's an interesting idea y'all need to start delving into some more video game music there's some good stuff out there chip tunes you got check that out before we say goodbye let's run down some Amazon stuff real quick Timothy has is this Amazon's way of getting back the fire market because of the failure of the fire phone yeah great question and that's definitely what a lot of people have assumed has been the case for a long time the fire phone had to fail to a certain extent for the echo to survive and thrive and do really well because ahead Amazon actually been successful in the smartphone market maybe they wouldn't have focused as much on this other thing called voice computing and smart speakers that nobody was really selling for years ago but now their strategy is really you know and this this I'm stealing from my colleague right Chris their strategy is just to catch us if you can strategy where they're just coming out with as many devices and updating the ones that they have as quickly as they can all these new services in hopes that you know Google and Apple and you name it a lot of other folks aren't going to catch up to them so if they had a phone at this point it just might have been a distraction from creating this giant ecosystem that they're working on yeah and lastly let's talk about the clock a little bit what does the clock do does it have Alexa sorry everybody I mean I've been trying to be better about triggering that what is the point of the wall clock and will it pet it play Pink Floyd okay so the wall clock does not have Alexa built-in which I initially would just like oh like clock so basically if you have a nine if you have yeah it tells time and it's an analog clock innovative and if you have an echo next to it and you set a timer it'll show on like the hands how long you still have on the timer with these little like digital diodes on the side so it'll like countdown but other than that one feature I couldn't really figure out whether it did anything else and it's $30 a lot of money I don't know do anything III tell time pitched Amazon I was just like guys I think this clock is so stupid I want to write like a 2,000 word deep dive into like the creation of the clock convince me otherwise why this isn't so stupid so but to their credit I was I was saying this that Apple would never do something like this they would never come out with a product that's not really that polished that doesn't really do that much out of the gate and does kind of seem a little bit silly or stupid or clunky you know and so good good for them that like we as tech journalists like to throw rocks all the time and say like why don't they take rest why don't they take chances well this sort of what do they do you guys like take a take a crap all over it yeah fine I'm giving them credit and making fun of them at the same time which i think is totally merited like i can talk out of both sides of my mouth that is what I'm here for look they wouldn't have launched it if they weren't planning on trying to raise a few eyebrows in the first place yeah who the hell knows what really comes out of in the long run but I like the idea that they're that they're just gonna get weird yes and they're known for being weird you know more more often than a lot of other tech companies which is why it's kind of like fun to cover them seeing some of the reportage out of that event - a lot of people seem to think that the microwave is gonna be this Trojan horse that's gonna convince everybody to buy like echo first of all that doesn't have alexa built in to it's like you know Alexa cook my popcorn or like pop my popcorn and then you know so so strikes turn it on sorry so you can you can turn it on using your voice assistant and it also comes with - replenishment service built-in so when you run out of popcorn it will send you popcorn automatically okay so so those are the two features it just knows it just does know what's the hot what's the greater number world after first cuz that's where we're leaning towards right now it's your Oh world it would have to be this is a zero world problem my micro gave has to know when I've run out of popcorn and no world beta world alphabet I don't know we'll work on it we didn't really get to talk much about the Android piece but there is a really excellent historic video up on SEANET right now we're gonna link to it in the description below I highly recommend looking at it and sharing with us your memories of the the launch of the Android phone and Larry Page and is lucious rollerblades until then we are out of time so thanks everybody for joining us we'll be back tomorrow who wants to take us out today can you do it yeah I'll do it okay so the 3:59 is available on iTunes tune in stitcher feedburner google play music the Amazon echo and of course cnet.com thanks everybody for watching and we'll see you again tomorrow take care folks see ya you