Gadgetory

everyone we're back with another ask Jian episode this one has some really good questions in it and I had to reach out actually to an expert in solid state storage dancer one of the questions so we have a quote from him addressing thermals and whether or not some of the cooling solutions for SSDs are complete so that's why we're going to talk about today something we've covered a bit in the past - lots of other questions though as always leave your questions in the comment section below for consideration for the next time we're shooting three today this is the first of three the second one will also go live on the main channel within hopefully plus or minus 18 hours of this one and then the third one is going on the patreon discord before that this video is brought to you by NZXT is new h 500 case which we recently found to have an impressively effective cooling setup that is entirely negative pressure when stock the H 500 is the successor of the s 340 and s 340 a lead offering high build quality that's all steel and glass and kael management features that are also a top class for the $70 compact mid tower case age 500 is a part of NZXT Zanu H series lineup which also features options from mini ITX micro ATX and full ATX builds learn more at the link of the description below very quick note first this shirt the teal logo version the teal teardown logo we just restocked it in tri-blend and cotton and we have a few women's bean acts in stock as well so trying to cover everyone there and when I say a few I mean it's like eight but that should cover us for a while so if you've wanted one of these design shirts they are in stock on store documents necks and snap they were out of stock for a few weeks thank you very much for supporting the design it seems very popular so the first question is from coulomb's 5 who says why are you willing to answer a lawsuit question on NVIDIA but not AMD and the heavily advertised primitive shaders and discard and HPCC for the Vega architecture none of them have materialized in the current discrete vega cards i've been asking for months but you refuse to touch the subject well I mean probably I didn't see the question which is probably because your persecution complex was just so big that I couldn't see it past the persecution complex guys first of all we get tens of thousands of comments a week so there's a giant difference between refusing to answer and literally not seeing it and I did check and I think you've asked this question twice and both of those videos were really popular so I didn't see it or if I did to see it I didn't feel qualified to talk about it at the time it's one of those two things so you kind of pushed that persecution issue you have to the side room oh and maybe talk to someone about that the thing is regarding your actual question we've gotten that dealt with the question of am these primitive shaders and discarding HPCC for bigger architecture not materializing in the current discreet cards I would agree that proto shader discard and draw stream bending rasterization all that stuff those core features we actually did talk about them first of all in the Vega content but yeah I would agree that they didn't really fully materialized as we were hoping now some of these features are on the driver side some are on the game developers so some of AMD's Vega features require game developer integration one of the things you didn't mention here what the hell was it called it was that I can't remember their name for it but it was the thing that moves to FP 16 so it enabled FP 16 processing when game developers would engage with that in order to wrap a packed map that was at rpm rival pack math so FP 16 is another feature where it's just floating point 16 it's called 1/2 precision rather than single precision which would be 32 FP 32 so you're using fewer decimal points to calculate things which is fine you don't always need 32 FP 32 for accuracy for something like a video game Chinese depends on what you're calculating but for a lot of things you can get away with that P 16 so it was actually a good idea it's just the problem is they're relying on game developers to use it and so that's one of the big walls there to actual adoption and I when you're the smaller vendor of 2 as AMD is anything that requires the rest of the world to conform to your thing and actually use it even if it's a good thing like rpm anything that requires people to to leverage your specific technology when you have you know less than 30 percent market share that's obviously gonna be an uphill battle Andy has a lot of battles to fight they it's it's kind of a chicken or the egg thing they have to be better to get more adoption and they have to have more adoption to get better so it's a it's a really tough challenge for them and I thought some of those those features of Vega we're not going to see for that reason primitive shader discard is one of the ones that was more or less canned and I don't have a great answer for why we haven't talked about Vega card since they came out basically because they've never been in stock since or if they were in stock the prices were insane so I would advise you to look back to her Vega 56 and 64 content if you want Vega discussion I that was several months ago it talked about it a whole lot then as for lawsuits I am NOT a legal expert I will remind you I frankly don't know enough about this specific situation to comment on it so the question of why are you willing to answer one and not the other is because one was like more cut-and-dry to me as a non lawyer and I was able to speak to it and also I never saw your question the first few times so anyway whatever that's there's my thoughts on Vega hopefully some of the actual information that is useful for you they had good ideas for it it's just it does does kind of suck where you know the some of the good ideas just aren't feasible to be used on a wide scale because it requires adoption and vice versa so it is a very unique challenge and Andes and a hard spot for it the next question is from Creighton who says it has been mentioned that MDOT to nvme heatsinks may cause degradation to the drives in some form would using an MDOT to heatsink such as the one from ekw be mainly for aesthetic purposes have an appreciable negative impact what degrades what processes are impacted and how does it progress over time would it be safe to use them in a showpiece gaming system that is on and your the time this is a a very good question and specifically what I like about it is that prayed and talks about the use cases so it's not just a wide sweeping question of when and how should I use this thing it's here's how I'm going to use this thing and for your question I approached Allen Melvin tano from PC / Allen Melvin tano is one of the leading storage reviewers in the space I would if you ever have SSD questions or you want to know how good an SSD is I would point you towards his reviews first as I think he's one of the forefront experts in reviewing SSDs and he's from PC / comm if you want to check them out so Allen had a great answer and this comes back to you before I read his answer this I think this question originates from something I've said a lot where we've talked about that ekw b block for SSDs and the problem is you know you really don't want to sink the NAND if you're going to be writing a whole lot and that's because there is degradation because then the flash actually prefers to be warmer while it's doing writes and if you're a have heard of cold storage if you are storing it then you want it to be cold but if it's active you want to be warm the controller to a point should be cooler so that it doesn't throttle but a point of thermal throttle is rare to hit which is something allen talk to us let me read you his answer here Allen said JEDEC rates that's the group that rates these things jeddak rates client SSDs with an operating temperature of 40 degrees Celsius if you force the flash down closer to room temperature let's say 25 C then with the same amount of writing done at that lower temperature the end-of-life data retention time will be cut in half and m2 SSD without a heatsink will naturally rise above ambient same goes for SSDs with heat spreaders or heat spreading labels you may have seen those some of the stickers are literally heat spreaders these days and he further says that they just spread the heat more evenly which is actually better for endurance since the flash will also run slightly warmer even while idle now for the heat sink and water block problem the goal of these items is to prevent thermal throttling during the heavy use but that is a controller issue not a flash issue flash loves to be hot while operating specifically during writes as that is what causes the where where the heatsink and block makers get this wrong is by having the thermal pad contact on the flash we want it to only contact the controller yes the overall temperature will still run lower less controller heat conducting to the flash while idle but at least during a heavy writes the flash will be able to rise closer to its preferred temperature without the heatsink actively pulling it back down to ambient this is far less of a concern for a showpiece system that is rarely writing but I would still recommend the trimming the thermal pad so that it only contacts the controller so that is from allen mal Ventana PC / had a bit more of a discussion with him he gave me a chart that hopefully you can put on the screen at some point during this with some temperatures power off and active temperatures that you can look at and also we talked about overall personal takes on these heatsink devices for MDOT - SSDs and Allen noted that generally throttling is the only active the only reason to actively cool the SSD on the controller that is and thermal throttling on the controller is pretty hard to do except in benchmarks that might not be realistic so if you know you're throttling then it's useful but if not it might not be worth buying and things like the the labels that are built in the heat spreading label is the built-in heat sinks on some devices like puck stores had those can do an okay job in some instances and the main thing is just you know maybe consider trimming the thermal pad like Allan was saying so I think we had one more thing we talked out here they want to bring up a great way to deal with a controller overheating in rare cases like if you only occasionally hit throttle points on the SSD controller the great thing to do is put some thermal pads between the controller and the motherboard if it's dual sided or even just on the back side of the PCB of the SSD and the motherboard do some other words natural heatsink it is made of fiberglass and copper basically so you put a thrown pad between the controller on the board well it's the backside of the front side that'll sink some heat and it's going to be targeted it won't cool the Nannes they don't have to worry about that at all also average case temperature it tends to be about / 30s 3540 C in an environment that's 25 C so just some more information for you next one is from bitter cynic who says ask Jenna's Andy still losing in the long term because of how irrelevant their progress might be due to the to the mainstream users due to GPU and ram prices personally I'm disappointed with how the potential of rise in Vega ended up squandered instead of being picked up by a large portion of gamers forcing the prices of both old and new Intel and NVIDIA parts to drop first on GP and RAM prices yes that was a very it was unfortunate timing for GP and Ram it started going up right around when Rison was coming out if I remember correctly and when you have a large surge of people building new systems in the market as rise and prompted because it's pretty good architecture for a first launch actually very good for a first launch of like a brand new architecture and so there's going to be an influx a lot of system builders and to have seat or GPU and ram prices skyrocket at that exact moment it's very unfortunate timing so yeah I would say that's unfortunate now as far as is AMD losing in the long term I'm not trying to speak to the financial side of this I can talk about to the technological side I'm not a financial expert I'm not going to pretend so AMD isn't out of the woods yet they they had years of being basically non-existent in the enthusiasts desktop CPU market and I think that's pretty agreeable for most people it was really small market share for FX especially with bulldozers very disappointing launch phenom 2 was a fantastic architecture phenom 2 x6 or whatever the arc was called a phenom 2 x6 was a really good processor bulldozers pretty disappointing they released a lot of refreshes with the FX line some of them were better than others and it took time it took like what 5 years her AMD to get to a point where they could push something like Rison and show significant gains so it's going to take time to recover market share and so far anecdotally mind you we've seen our audience just with affiliate sales because we can see affiliate revenue distribution via our Amazon Newaygo the retailer partnerships so this is anecdotally to our channel to our channel which I believe is primarily comprised of gamers for people who do like the game occasionally at least for our channel we've seen greater and the adoption than we've seen ever in the last like six years and I think we've had affiliate accounts with these companies probably six to eight years so basically since we started doing affiliate tracking and revenue so we've seen more referred sales to thin and part of this is going to be confirmation bias because the parts we recommend will tend to be purchased more frequently so you know it's not a great set of data if you're trying to analyze the market but it's good enough for me to look at our audience and say what are you all buying and the answer is a lot more Rison than any time for AMD in the past we've ever seen ever with like the FX CPUs or the previous ap use before Raven Ridge so I would say there AMD although they are not out of the woods yet they have a ton of ground to gain still kind of struggling in the GPU market the CPU side of AMD has oddly kind of flipped with the GPU side or suddenly the CPU side's the strong department and it's gaining a lot of ground and I think AMD has a chance here to claw back they've their semi-custom group is also doing very well so so many custom designs it's a a the group that did like the Xbox and PlayStation and stuff like that and these also working with China based companies now for that dianna CPU which is basically a China only release with a Zen architecture x86 processor so I would say overall AMD is doing ok but the GPS is very weak driver side is not great on the GPUs it has improved the AMD red team plus people are going to freak out and post a comment because they'll get points and a free shirt if they do but the fact of the matter is that the driver side for Andy especially on the professional side where they will sometimes encourage professional users of Radeon cards to use gaming drivers because they are more up-to-date than the professional drivers it's a problem that side I think has the most again right now and I'm not sure what's going on in the rift the Radeon technologies group but hopefully they can gain some ground back there so rise and I think is doing well I think it's carrying the team right now and Andy's gaining ground with it threader for two should be very interesting to look at this is where right now Andy hasn't gained as much server market share as you might expect with epic but enterprise users server users want something that's tested epics been out a while now thread rippers been out a while now for workstation users so as these second generations roll out I would expect to see more of an uptick in their market share than previously just because it has been tested so the second generation is something that should have some more eyes on it than previously if anyone was either concerned that it wasn't the embattled tester or tried in a tough environment or they just didn't have their eyes on it because it's AMD an AMD didn't have anything impressive up until that point so are they still losing in the long term I can't answer that question but I would say that Andy is doing better in the CPU department at least for our audience for our affiliate revenue we can track them we've ever seen for Andy's CPU sales GPU sales are down and I would imagine part of that student mining part of that's because they can't can't get the prices to MSRP which is a memory price issue as well so that's a big problem GPU not I'm not going to sugarcoat it AMD has to do a lot here they still have a tremendous amount of debt but they're doing the right things on at least one side of the business so let's hope they can do that on the GPU side as well maybe with Nabi and Vega 56 is a good card by the way it's just the price is too high most the time next question J Brian says have you guys looked into the possibility visualizing airflow through cases so I'm gonna stop here yes we did and one of our previous asked G ends if you maybe try Google searching for like I don't remember the episode number try just ask GN smoke test and see what comes up the short of it is we've done it we've even published some of it it was ages ago we did plumber smoke pellets so you light them on fire and it makes a bunch of smoke the reason I did that because it was it didn't have any moisture in it no water vapor so we didn't have that conduction concern problem is four components they'll get kind of slimy and gross if you use water vapor there's a concern maybe of shorting something and we've talked to some companies about some special solutions for that and right now it's not feasible but it's something we'll continue to look into as we get more space to work with and budget and stuff like that the problem is just that it doesn't show you quite as much as we would all like it to show you with the method that we had previously which was the safest also the method we had previously left the system smelling awful so you had to test it outside and then all the parts would smell like smoke for weeks so anyway yeah something we've looked into we've done even and hopefully one day we can do more rusty Shackelford said Steve I couldn't help but notice on the back of my motherboard box it says they're using superior Japanese capacitors is this because they are quality capacitors from the respective company or just an odd marketing tactic it's actually really common for companies to boast about Japanese caps and that's because the origin of it is that some of the SMD manufacturers in Japan make some really high quality SM DS capacitors being one of those so the thing I wasn't sure about is I would I mean one would assume that any country is capable of housing companies that are both good and bad at making something so I would have to assume there's a bad specific Japanese capacitor model out there somewhere I think that would be reasonable to assume so I don't know that just being a Japanese capacitor is inherently makes you the best but I did speak with build Zoid who knows quite a lot about vrm components and capacitors and things like that and builds lloyd noted to me that he's not immediately aware of any japanese capacitors on motherboards that are bad so I guess there is actually some truth to that marketing despite being marketing from what I understand from Build Zoid it sounds like generally speaking it's pretty safe to assume that they're going to be better than average in the very least if not just outright good next question is from and that just comes down to who's manufacturing stuff and Japan happens to have a lot of small electronics manufacturers including Omron actually which we should tour at some point the next question is from Jeff Lehman he says hey Steve I just saw an older video you made about rocket cools copper I address for the 1151 socket how you test it with conducts not got me thinking of how copper reacts with liquid metal in a bad way have you had any experiences with bad experiences with it some reports say the reaction is only happening above 80 degree Celsius so first of all between the dye and the standard IHS the normal Intel I H s that's nickel-plated so you're not going to have any really problems there any reactions that are of a meaningful impact anything as far as the rock and cool one so you'll get some tarnishing on it the liquid metal will basically I don't know what what the correct chemical processes that's happening there but basically if you look at the underside of the IHS after you applies them it'll get it'll stain it so it stains at the color of liquid metal in our test and we've done a lot of it it doesn't impact the thermals in any meaningful way so even though you have that layer of all the liquid metal there the thermal performance is functionally the same it's within our margin of error or whatever the difference is so I wouldn't worry about it the only thing to worry about is definitely don't use liquid metal with aluminum it will not like it you'll get pitting and damage to the aluminum it's it's pretty bad but it's okay to use with copper it will stain it but from our testing the stains don't seem to impact on all performance and that's with that's being people who replace the liquid metal on these things more than most average users ever would in the lifetime of the system so I wouldn't worry about it too much it is possible for liquid metal to have a bad chemical reaction with something with some materials but they are all labeled on the card that you get with the liquid metals just read that it's typically just aluminum but nickel plated you're totally fine copper just be prepared for some tarnishing visual tarnishing performance doesn't seem to be impacted in our tests and pitting you have to worry about a bit but that's more of using it with improper cereals are incompatible materials which will be listed on the instructions hopefully next one of two more I think is from Nelson panna who says question what are the what are the things you've noticed that get harder or easier as the size of your channel increases and do you think it's the same for other channels or other types of channels I'm going to keep this kind of short easier learning how to produce content and learning how to learn just like anything else as you get better at something you kind of figure out how you get better at that thing so learning how to learn is the is the absolute biggest asset for us as we continue to grow and do more things that makes us more efficient at things it makes me better at talking to contacts and researching stuff helps us understand when when should we take something research it test it and decipher it versus when should we just talk to someone who's an expert and get their information because sometimes if better work exists you really don't need to add to it if you think you can't do a better job than them it's always good to have more data it's always good to do more more work on a subject but honestly time is the biggest resource we have that we can't get more of and beside from paying more people but it's not a linear scaling that's the way YouTube works sometimes the biggest thing we can't get more of and sometimes it's better to just refer to an expert on the subject and and that will allow us more time to work on something else so learning how to do stuff like that's really important and I would say access to companies has gotten easier what's harder keeping up the pace is hard I'm gonna do it dammit but it's it's really difficult sometimes the hours are long you get tired the travel is non-stop for I don't know eight months out of the year so that gets harder and that keeps getting harder because there's more travel as more people want to bring us or to events or talk to us so it's stuff we can handle but I would say keeping up the pace is the most difficult it's something I can do though the next thing is the signal-to-noise ratio and comments and this is where like the patreon discord community's been great because it's a smaller group of people so it's easier for me to keep a pulse on that than the YouTube comments where we start getting worse signal-to-noise as more people come in who are maybe less mature I'll say that our core audience all of you watching because the problem is it's not the subscriber base people who aren't subscribed who've never seen us who's coming through the side channel from a another channel that might target a younger audience or something and rather than just leave if they don't like the content they'll start posting comments that are trolling or attacking other users personally and that's not cool and there's not a lot we can do about it either unfortunately last one is actually not a question but it was a great comment I really wanted to read it to give it some the attention it deserved this is from lo1 or LOL he said off topic for memes this is from the episode where I talked about how we don't go to parties at events because they're waste time lol says I wonder what knocked at Computex parties are like classical music people walking around drinking 90% purified water very quiet and Noctua engineers showing off their fancy stuff silent auctions of various Noctua products party games fan airflow testing and extreme overclocking with the nhd 15 case mods with Noctua engineers know that acrylic triangle will not be enough to hold up the SSD here's a machined aluminum SSD mount rated for key three kilograms of load just made it with my portable laser cutter Steve's hair cooling mount revisited with resin 3d printers and the end is knocked to engineer's blowing you out of the room with a wall of NF a 12 by 24 hives so just wanted to read that one for everyone for a good ending as always you can go to patreon.com/scishow and axis to get access to the bonus episode on the main channel we'll have a second episode whether before after this one and also get a story I came as next to sign that to pick one of these shirts we just restocked the teal tear down logo and of course we stalled the Mod mats in stock or actually coming into stock as I speak right now and I think that covers it so subscribe for more leave a question in the comments if you have one thank you for watching I'll see you all next time