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No breaks for Huawei or HTC | #PNWeekly 292

2018-02-17
wha with North America takes a rocky turn as law-enforcement agencies issue an advisory and problems arise from trying to game mate ten reviews on best by a row so tracking drama from HTC shall me and Verizon so with a special guests on this week's show let's also spend a little time prepping the rumors and leaks coming up for MWC that'll be a lot more fun methinks we've got a lot to talk about so make sure you're charged and ready for episode two nine two of the pocket now weekly recorded february 16th at noon pacific this weekly podcast is where we dissect and discuss those gadgets that make our lives mobile smartphones tablets and wearables it's all the stuff you wished existed when you were a kid reading dime-store science fiction novels I'm Juan Carlos bag now senior editor at pocketnow.com joined as always by plucky podcast producer mr. Jules Wong how's it going buddy boy I'm pretty good I mean it's a it's a little gray out here today but the sun shining face that I could put on to counter this is gonna be as well-defined as the quality of those your whether or not withstanding we've got a third face on the podcast where you going to this Jules cloud cover no no what's much more exciting than Jules is whether shenanigans joining the podcast this week the man the myth the legend mr. Rhyne Hagar from Android police thank you so much for joining the show this week thank you for having me I'm about ten feet from Jules right now even though it looks like it's much sunnier where I am weather is just as bad so it's hilarious you guys are saying that we had just like a little bit of just like cloud frosting in Los Angeles over the last week and it broke literally about 20 minutes ago and it's completely screwing with the exposure that I can't like I'm darker than I should be the backgrounds all blowing out right now this isn't exactly what I intended but I know you're already in the roar of borealis yeah exactly while I'm prepping my steamed hams I Ryan thank you so much I'm embarrassed to say that I've been participating with Android police been a big fan we had David on a David Roddick on the show to talk about some stuff a couple months back and for the longest time I thought there were two Ryan's on Android police and it wasn't until jewel sent me in an email that I even bothered to recognize that your name is more closely resembles a river not you know like Ryan Gosling yeah I I get that a lot and I tend to just respond to both which since we also have Orion at Android police means there's a little bit of a mix-up sometimes but it works well I'm glad I was I was able to correct that in my brain and hopefully save you just one person's worth of agony for actually identifying you as you properly should be not the one thing that you can do to differentiate between the two is just talk about London for a little bit and then it's true yeah that's how you tell the difference between me and Ryan we're pretty much identical otherwise but linin brings out the different system good to know III endeavor our listeners to consider you're approaching you with discussions on tabletop fabrics our listeners we want you to participate while talking about other things other than linen or any of our personal endeavors here we want you to chime in with the Twitter here YouTube chats as we go along you know here it might not be the best way to engage with us as you know they're coming in pretty fast so hashtag P and weekly on Twitter and would be the best idea to go with right now and if you can't make it to our show if you listen to this after the fact I send us an email podcast at pocketnow.com and we will happily respond to your questions and concerns and comments after well let's say a couple of weeks because we got the MWC coming up and we have a mailbag episode afterwards which would be between the end of February and the beginning so would be I and then also for those of you joining the show live we're already seeing some chatter on that PN weekly hash tag mr. Andrew says slack saying shoutouts to other regular listeners at fat produce at riina-chan people already chatting about some of the topics we have coming up this week so you know meet us up on Twitter and throughout the week if you want to shoot us a tweet using that P and weekly hash tag that's a lot easier for us to track then real-time instant message style communications on the the youtubes and the other platforms hardcore real-time powerful in-your-face live as we as we speak the confronting images those were all goods yes yes all right let's jump in the news that's the top news stories from from pocket now this week the podcast yeah for the week of February 12th this is all the news that's fit to podcast and we begin with the US government and meaning of the Senate Intelligence Committee with some of the top intelligence heads of the nation six of them including the FBI is Christopher Ray's speaking to the concerns of Chinese cyber threats and the fact that Huawei and ZTE are apparently going they wouldn't recommend using handset from them so this is coming as following ZTE are building their US consumer relationships so this will be interesting to see going forward especially as the May 10 Pro was being blocked off by carriers we'll have to see how that goes long and speaking of May 10 Pro got that contest from Facebook that was happening there apparently there was some sort of a contest to recruit beta users for the hardware and the main mechanism of entry was putting down a review on the Best Buy review page for the product which was only in pre-orders by the way there's a whole bunch of terms of use that would be violated in that and apparently the whole snafu is being addressed by Huawei right now saying that they were fused that there was an internal confusion that this was just a there was supposed to be a second campaign for current beta users that they were supposed to get feedback on the best webpage but apparently there was some conversion going on we'll have to dig into that in just a little bit HTC's smartphone business president Shannon Chang has resigned just another one in the many resignations that have come along over the years seems like last year it was Scott Croyle that got off the bandwagon after the HTC 10 and now it's the smartphone president smartphone business president getting off here and this is before any potentially you 12 that might be coming along so definitely not did sign is even though there was some sort of a positive encouragement from Google and that 1.1 billion dollar labor deal going on we'll have to look into that a little bit further Verizon is has announced that it will be as seven walking phones again after what a decade or so of agreeing to not selling any or doing anything with sin walking the requirement was because of agreement had signed with the FCC to acquire 700 megahertz frequencies for licensing and now they're saying that we're going to do this for theft and fraud of reasons to protect customers from that they say that the change does not impact spirit of that agreement and as it is designed to deter theft by those who engage in identity theft or other fraud we'll get into the debate about that in just a little bit apples home pod is not really going along with as with other products typically you see very high product margins on these products including buy from ten which is kind of an achievement within its own stuff I guess you could say but when you're considering that Apple is selling that home pod for $349 that you see the price to build according to stores here two hundred sixteen dollars it's a comparatively modest margin to have where typically it'd be sixty something percent this is more closer to forty percent so definitely a little out of line in terms of the usual habits of Apple the Google will pick a pixel book now has a sleeve to go along with it and the Google store is selling it for $100 Xiaomi Xiaomi has deleted a Twitter poll that is really stirring things up here I believe they've done one or two of these beforehand but they've done this on Twitter and they're calling users on which we just lose jewels the last story in a nutshell Jami you know what Ryan let's start right there you run a major smartphone manufacturing company you put out a poll why why do you put out a poll I feel most people put out polls because they're confident they know what the results are gonna be you know I'm not sure why they put out that poll cuz they had to have known that people were not going to vote for no it was a I think was that by the end of a was like 57 to 43 in terms of Android went to meet you I and some some similar kind of thing going on in the previous poll so when you consider the the wider audience of Twitter the you know there's some American in global audience going with that and how you know the the enthusiasts market tends to gravitate to it towards a Xiaomi anyways this was not really a good combination and even with like an informed hole where they would you know do it just for strictly for the Chinese market or something like that yeah I'm not sure as to whether that would provide better results or you know more meaningful results at the very least no no rhinos we're kind of like digging into stories like this you know we're gonna be talking a lot about Huawei here in just a bit kind of moving back up the news chain that we just went through all the headlines would your experiences that Android police kind of mirrors some of the discussion that we've had on pocket now where it seems like most of the enthusiasts the people that really join this conversation we're all pretty well satisfied with the current state of Android I mean picking up a pixel doesn't feel like the old Nexus days where there was a lot of missing functionality from third-party skins yeah people definitely like I was just remarking on the other day yeah there's not really as much of a feature gap anymore people used to need to root and ROM and to do things like that to add in the features they wanted now there are enough other workarounds for pretty much anything you could desire there's not really in my opinion anyway a whole lot that's lacking right now in Android although some of the supplementary projects like Android wear could use a little lot of help yeah definitely Android wear whole ways things work yeah well and it definitely I think it speaks to Google's confidence in their various projects right now like we're seeing them pushing the boundaries on different aspects of Android design I think we're watching them kind of coast on Android wear but as we get back to their relationship with individual manufacturers do you do you think that this is increasingly going to be the differentiator between the various camps I mean there are Yummie fans just like there are Samsung fans just like there are LG fans just like there are pixel fans do you think that people are fans of a manufacturer because of these software improvements or despite you know I don't know I will say I will qualify whatever I say with not all opinions are valid but I don't think that I think that there are genuinely some people who like some of the features that are added by roms I know that there are a lot of people who are really into Samsung's modifications over the last couple years and that's whereby whatever they're calling it now it's not TouchWiz anymore is it Samsung experience yeah do I experience yeah but I I think that I think that if most people get the to try a wider variety and flavor of the various builds that they'll probably end up liking the the simpler ones the non MIUI is the non the closer to stock really I think the better it is in terms of usability because most of the modifications that get put on top of it really don't add a whole lot in terms of usability they're just differentiation for differentiation sake well and especially when we're looking at an outlet outlet like Xiaomi where for the longest time it seemed like there was I can sort of push to try and draw Android closer to iOS style functionality yeah there's yet they in terms of appearance and a lot of the weird behavior and it is they try to Cologne a lot of that functionality and I'm not a fan I think it's terrible but so I'm gonna I want to kind of move up move up from there because again I just think it's it's funny the number of sort of PR missteps that we saw from numerous companies this week I mean in and out of the tech space but you know like pulling the Twitter poll like the sour grapes if I'm just gonna take my ball and go home it's like a light-hearted version of what we're gonna be getting into with some of these other issues like Tim Cook of like taking the Super Bowl picture and then deleting it because good and now suddenly we have to talk about the skill of the photographer to know I do want to unravel a little bit and Ryan get your thoughts on this move by Verizon I'm a little confused as to why this was the right time the cynic in me is really wanting to point to the current relationship between major telecom companies this concerted effort to remove consumers right to repair and the telecommunications relationship with regulatory agencies at the time I'm I'm a little distrustful and and I feel like I'm gonna be kind of popping on my tinfoil hat a lot during this broadcast I'm a little distrustful of the motives behind relocking phones on the platform do you really feel that this is the best move forward for trying to reduce smartphone theft and fraud I don't necessarily know that locking devices is gonna reduce smartphone theft and fraud it might but I I don't believe that for a second that that's actually the the explanation for what is going on because they're definitely just taking advantage of the fact that right now the FCC is being managed by someone who's friendly enough not to try to enforce the regulation that was previously imposed upon them when they purchased what was at the 700 blocks yeah I know David was ranting about that in our coverage and he's he's entirely right he's absolutely correct because I think it's just another example of exactly we were saying Ryan it's another example of the difference between tech coverage and sort of tech lifestyle you know I'm really excited that geek has won the general sort of lifestyle discussion smartphones are ubiquitous you know we we win but because of that it also feels like we don't always have the most in-depth or consumer appropriate discussions on these types of on these types of stories so um I don't know Ryan moving right along as we as we check out the landscape on different manufacturers and the companies that people seem to be excited about releasing new products uh where's HTC's current dilemma with Presidents resigning fitting into that it is not leaving me with a lot of not leaving me with a lot of confidence for the brand moving forward as a Premium Outlet for smartphones well they did just sell a hardware division to Google right so how much is left well is it okay so much like I'm wearing tinfoil hat a lot for these stories this week someone accused me of trying to create a kind of narrative around that buyout like my theory was you piecemeal HTC you move some of the most important divisions over to Google the vibe becomes its own thing and within two years the HTC brand is just licensed out on low-cost and mid-range hardware and the spirit of HTC will live on in the pixel and someone told me all no you're wrong this is a the move is predicated on dividing these resources but there's always going to be a high-end HTC blah-blah-blah-blah-blah to me seeing the revolving door presidents and CEOs and CTOs and CFOs and the different people running the top at this of this organization speaks to me that we're probably not looking at an htc that's long for this world in a way that we understand it today we entertained the same thought as well in a discussion on the Android police podcast I think two weeks ago um that yeah they're they're splitting off all of the assets that are worth anything they sold a hardware division to Google I think they still have some at least one hardware division left as you said the vibe is being spun off into its own like separate thing so yeah what's left like I I mean I don't I don't think it's their intention to do any of what you just described but I would not be at all surprised to see that happen because I think that if they don't maintain profitability with what they've got left they'll see more of the company's departments and assets being split off this old piecemeal until all that's left are is the name and you know I don't know I don't I'm not hopeful and and this also avoids some of the ire that we saw when Google just outright acquired Motorola right so now I feel like there's there's also like an imaging war that's happening like a PR battle that happens what are the optics on a move like this if Google had just reached out snatched up HTC in its entirety that puts pressure on other manufacturers it were angry enough about Motorola when that happened yeah exactly and so now I kind of feel like this this lets everyone off the hook HTC sort of allowed to fail on its own terms while they have plenty of time in the market to look at what needs to be acquired what resources need to be divided what needs to be shipped off to another what debts and assets need to be reconciled and we can be pretty confident that the team that was at HTC before they went to Google probably had about two phones in the pipeline you know I can I would expect there be a you 12 and probably a you 13 you know there were already designs on manufacturing that hardware that's why I kind of say within the next two to three years I seriously doubt HTC is going to resemble what it did you know a year ago the pipeline is I think that the hardware development pipeline is usually at least 12 months usually like 12 to 18 so we're definitely gonna see one to two more phones out of I'm I'm curious to see if any of that's gonna come along with the purchase of the hardware division that Google got if the next pixels are gonna be based on some of these HTC phones that might have been in the pipe if any of that came with the the acquisition of the do you think we'll see some of that synergy just because of the the the team having made that transition or do you think that Google will start to exert more of its own influence over the design process like where we were was at the HTC u 11 plus being the pixel excel that we didn't get because of LG manufacturing that phone or do you think we'll see a starker divide for pixel 3 I don't I don't even know I yeah the the pixel 2 situation because there was the canceled wall I I don't know if I'm pronouncing that correctly yeah the wall I yeah that was the original excel that they were and they ended up going with the LG phone instead but I don't you know I don't really know I don't know how it's gonna who knows maybe the purchase of the hardware division is gonna end up being something totally unrelated they're gonna use this to manufacture more of like the the other goods they're doing the Google clips or the the oh yeah it could be totally unrelated until we see a phone come out until we find out who the manufacturer is there's there's no way to know but I definitely I bet that this is I bet that it's pointing towards the next pixel if not this next one because maybe it was far enough down the pipe maybe they have LG already picked for the next bit of hardware then definitely the one after cuz I think that was probably one of the fairest criticisms of Google's launch this year was having Hardware discrepancies and and like sort of having different problems for each tier of pixel you know like microphone issues versus screen problems versus like paint chipping look and some of the durability of these phones not to mention the screen on the XL exactly and so one of the I think one of the surest ways to sort of reconcile some of those QA problems would be to get manufacturing all under one roof hopefully so I think that either way they're still gonna be am LEDs a problem where are they going to source the panels from there's two companies and make them you got LG you got Samsung LG makes bad ones Samsung makes good ones but Samsung LG does bad heads they make ol Ed's that resembled screens from like two generations ago well I mean in the contemporary landscape I don't know I don't know what was going on with that it's definitely a different bin and what the v30 got because you can see the differences in uniformity and like it's the one on the pixel to Exhale looks a lot better to me but it's okay it's fine it's acceptable but it's nothing compared to the screen on the note 8 like when things in a whole world man I think I think there's definitely something to be said for Samsung's acumen there right yeah they they put money on OLED with the first generation Galaxy S so in terms of refinement change over time we've only seen LG dabble yeah we saw them dabble with the Flex then they kind of left it for a while went back to LCDs then they came back and now we need to see whether or not they can in earnest iterate evolve and improve but that's not to say that we haven't seen other challenges like I it's kind of a tricky tricky question you know begging and borrowing the different pieces between like a V 30 and a node 8 because you I would have to make a choice between a ruddier display from samsung this year where I felt like the galaxy s7 was a noticeably more color accurate display and especially in terms of white balance and that's something I'm looking at dead-on versus a blue color shift and more gradation in gray tones yeah and the V 30 right so when I'm looking at my phone off access the LG v 30 is is definitely not as nice but when I'm looking on access my whites are super red Samsung's displays this year so I kind of feel like OLED in general is being stretched to its limits and we're noticing compromises when we were in like galaxy s6 territory we didn't notice those compromises one because OLED was still a more unique aspect of Samsung phones but Samsung also I think could manage the supply chain better you know they didn't have to deal with any compromises because any any screen that was performing below like the most supreme top tier levels performance could just be excised from the market now they have so many different things that they need to supply for that I think we're noticing across the board OLED production is being sort of hammered by this demand yeah you know the good thing is that well good relatively speaking is that if it's affecting across the board there's not there's no favoritism in terms of what yields people get and what you know other kinds of it's all the pretty much the same unless you go for a different supplier and altogether now Xiaomi did experiments with Chinese manufacturer when it was doing the red meat stew or for one of those things uh BOE was one of them and you know like there was so much talk about them being like a very affordable device and like the $200 mark with an OLED display and I'm not sure if we've ever actually seen a unit or the weight was seen a unit talking about that because but at some point they transitioned over to an LCD and I'm sure if they produce to know that you did overall well and who's supplying oh let's furred for like oboe and Huawei is that Samsung to from yeah that's what the the to buy one Full HD that's a Samsung panel almost assuredly they're they're pretty much fee other than LG they're kind of like monopolizing the whole market like no sense good that LG's moving into it'll be a while until they're actually competitive well I want to give them to Jen I think I think that's what it's gonna take to iterate because it's not just not whether or not they can make the panel its LG's I think biggest biggest issue is QA if the consistency of what they can manufacture and put out their weight it's probably their biggest issue I mean all this money that Apple and Google are putting into LG it's not for nothing they have to show something for us yeah there should be returned with all the money that they're spending on research well but I mean like that's also what's kind of interesting is with LG's dabbling and the fact that they kind of built a reputation for pio lead in wearables yeah that's true not that they were absent I mean if you look at the screen on a flex to versus the V 30 we do see progress especially at the pixel density that that LG was able to ramp up on that I mean you know they definitely have some ways to go but III kind of feel it's like we didn't see them in a vacuum just fail we've seen them iterate and improve it's just we haven't seen the constant mmm you know has been working on for eight years yeah it's like the the the the machine of progress that Samsung has demonstrated over all this time let's okay let's let's get into this you're talking about a topic sorry no this is exactly the kind of tangents I wanted to get into I to get us back on though the the biggest story I was on set at Newegg and people were asking me about Huawei and what's going on with with sort of the federal law enforcement agencies getting involved in this discussion Ryan I want to kick write off into this advisory and from my own personal attempts at trying to track this story and trying to dig up sources and seeing who's actually commenting on this how concerned do you think consumers could should be and do you think we'll ever see a state law enforcement agency deliver the kind of evidence to back up some of the concerns that they're that they're currently disclosing right now well good comparison that kind of answer both questions is that okay one plus so one plus had a couple of recent the security and privacy snafus right nificant snap yeah and each time they get called out like immediately for people notice that this isn't the sort of stuff that it sneaks by and if a tiny relatively tiny OAM not quite start-up like one class is able to not get away with something like this there's no way that how always doing any of the stuff like they're being accused of because someone would have noticed people dig him through doing packet inspection would have seen things being sent by the handset it's not happening I think that it's totally it's hyperbole and to that extent I don't think consumers consumers really need to need to worry and I don't think that there's gonna be any evidence from any of the agencies that have leveled they're not quite accusations against either of the companies because if there were any evidence smarter people than them would have found it right well I'm glad I'm really glad you brought up oneplus because my examples in interest sort of speaking casually like for other just tech enthusiasts oneplus and then also when we were going through some of those issues with the spyware that was being preloaded on lenovo laptops for example it didn't take long for the market to discover that abuse of user data yeah like we moved pretty quickly from you know putting putting out notices to discussing this in public for it to make make the news why is it that you do you feel because again I mean we don't have any any proper I mean I would be more than happy to sort of change my position on this if the FBI or the CIA or the NSA could point to some kind of evidence in the behavior of these products in the market abusing user data as soon as I can see some information I will I will be on board the consumer protection stance on this why do you feel that ZTE and Huawei were targeted as opposed to a company like oneplus whose sort of quiet parent organization is also a humongous smartphone manufacturer it's not like we should let Oppo off the hook for one of the tinier sort of offshoot brands that utilizes their manufacturing I don't really know I mean it'd be conjecture either way I couldn't say but it could be good to place on this man because I think I have a larger idea of what the overall arching theme is because alright here we go here we go it's jewels so we're gonna we're gonna go into like sci-fi 13 this was indicate edition yeah but this was indicated back in the 5g nationalization report that was released or leaked out actually by the National Security Council member and it talked really about the need or the desire to have like localized domesticate all the telecom equipment that would be needed for that network to protect against one of the largest growing threats in cyber security and as the Chinese government they've been doing a lot of suppression in their regions of information suppression a lot of that kind of thing going on and cuale and ZTE are the two biggest telecom equipment providers in this industry now whether that relates to their consumer side business is up for debate we're still trying to sneak that out but this has been found in 2012 investigations where ZTE was violating trade sanctions by providing to Iranian carriers Iranian suppliers and also Huawei their I wasn't really trying to dig into the 24 case against them in that concern but the general case is that telecom equipment from it was really a relaying data back to servers back in China or something like that and with the overall concerned that cuale was founded by a former People's Liberation Army member that has been growing in terms of their cyber security digital operations going going to that there's there's always this you know thread that they these intelligence agencies can draw in terms of you know ratcheting up more surveillance more you know more protective more defensive measures against China so it's not just theirs it's a very complicated situation but I understand why you know this kind of conclusions being drawn here well I think you know because I agree with you I think the reason why Oppo is in under scrutiny is because Oppo hasn't been trying to make significant inroads in 5g telecommunications backhaul and equipment in North America where as we've seen Huawei and ZTE like they have consumer sides of their business but you know their main bread and butter is like actually string in the towers together to get people connected to these networks and services I just find it interesting and and Ryan do you think that you know again cuz we're we're just devolving into wild speculation here like I don't think any of us will ever get proper disclosure or evidence to back up these these assertions and it's why the whole inside of this hat is is lined with tin foil this week as a problem as it should be it should be every week appropriately prescient for me to to keep up with the tin foil attire sube your head if I what Julie I want to yes and you so bad there and I kind of just want to get back to the topic at hand doesn't this start to feel maybe a little overly punitive when we're looking at the divisions between a consumer side a consumer facing aspect of a business and then what that represents for the larger overall telecommute telecommunications side of that same brand label I don't know if I mean I think that it would be difficult for them to impose restrictions in terms of well you can you can compete in this business but not that business that's some that's a level of control that we haven't quite ever pushed to my knowledge in terms of allowing or not allowing companies to only operate within specific areas you can do telecommunications but you can't do handsets er I don't know I well that's actually kind of I mean and again I'm kind of glad you phrased it that way because isn't doesn't that illustrate part of this where the threat of a Huawei getting any kind of toehold in the United States might make some kind of distribution or sales channel or tech deal even just a little bit easier if they're able to operate with the backing of a made u.s. carrier I mean yes fear the fear of this of this relationship from a government perspective again wild speculation and we have no disclosure or evidence to back this up is if Huawei is in talks with AT&T even just for selling a phone in 18 t stores doesn't that make it easier for them to build a relationship where they could become a primary supplier of 18 t's future communications gear that's certainly possible but look at zzzt provides a ton of carrier locked super cheap hands that's right now and I don't know if that's happened as a result of that like I'm selling these 50 and $80 $100 phones they're free on contract - I don't know Verizon Sprint whoever buys these whatever networks carry the low NZT hand says doesn't seem to have given them any inroads in telecom for those companies so I don't know flip side of things I mean blue American based kind of a phone rebadging company that gets its software its firmware vended from a Chinese supplier that you know they didn't take out the data collection features that they have you know have four standard for Chinese phones like that's why isn't that being brought up as it comes more of a concern in the short term at the very least because they're I mean I feel like that's that would be more chrétien's no I know I agree I think that's why there has been some kind of confusion or I mean it just leaves you with a sense of like why now and why these two if they're offering this kind of an advisory calling out to companies and the two companies that are also gonna be most responsible for building 5g networks around the world opposite Qualcomm I mean some of their strongest competitors there when we have other examples of other manufacturers that have had problems and yet we've never seen a law enforcement advisory against what Oh both phones yeah or or or blue or vivo or any of the other unlocked unlocked supplied phones it's something that again I doubt we'll ever get some kind of clear disclosures to whine and why this but it's gonna fuel a plenty of speculation and a lot of distrust of the very agencies making this advisory yeah I've got a good yarn here from shrug by you know there's they're sort of a general error' of distrust happening right now with some of these with some of these outlets that's certainly political climate yeah and to that guy did you arm here from a renowned report on Twitter but the hash tag P and weekly let's go straight to the point the Chinese government isn't a saint neither is Huawei we know that the Chinese government has a strict control of the digital lives of its citizens this control is made possible by companies like CTE Xiaomi Huawei but also companies like Apple who comply with the local rules to have their digital services available in China and to be honest the situation isn't different in the United States or Europe the biggest difference is that authoritarian countries aren't secret about it well the government of the free world spy on us either in secrecy are with homeland security as an excuse but do we really think that following or the Chinese government even will be stupid enough to allow or require any kind of backdoor on enterprise and consumer products only for it to be discovered for the whole world to lose its trust on the brand money comes before everything else and the Chinese government knows the amount of money that quali ZTE and others make besides Huawei besides Huawei can be considered a national pride symbol like Samsung is for South Korea which you know is it's interesting to see how China because at this point China is well into its progression of mixing capitalistic facets into their economy where they're still sharing a whole bunch of you know a lot of the Communists of socialists kind of structures there and but there's more concern now more than ever in terms of the government's we've recently seen a president xi jinping kind of addressed this in you know continuing on in his range whereas you know other times other presidents have just you know faded away let linen room for a successor to change you know give a little fresh breath of things whereas well there's no clear successor yet and it's steffel that that there might be one in the next five or ten years so now that there's they're starting to be a pulse more towards she and his ideas and some of them involve more protectionism for China and more kind of the spreading of Chinese ideals and I think we're seeing a number of must sort of throw up some walls and barriers just the the international trading climate right now I think has been strained by recent political events one of one of the best like cynic responses that I saw on the reddit post for this story though it was someone writing and I honestly couldn't tell if they were trying to make a joke or not you know you get into like that pose law of how much distress do we have for you know government agencies and with someone saying well because Huawei uses hisilicon Kirin chipsets the CIA CIA probably had a harder time building in back doors and the replies to that comment were split like 50/50 between people laughing like oh haha that's really funny and then like yeah because the NSA is doing all this stuff and like you know chemtrails awesome I love that this was like someone immediately went to you know there are the law enforcement is offering an advisory against Huawei because they're too difficult to spot no I'm telling you the Chinese are turning the frauds gay and later well will our sponsor is not selling disaster buckets of food that you can also turn to the furniture before we get to our sponsor and I apologize the sponsor I did also just want to lightly touch on this because in in light of this political news you know losing a fight badly and trying to get Huawei phones into US carriers on for spent issuing an advisory against the security of these devices it's just the wrong time to be entertaining shenanigan review common trickery on trying to encourage people to buy your phones this Best Buy this Best Buy problem was a bad look for huawei I can't imagine anyone being able to properly justify that and it instantly create sort of an Arab ill-will around the brand yeah it definitely didn't make any sense like though there was a justification that they they had two different marketing operations happening simultaneously and wires got crossed somewhere and they asked people from one promotion - to participate another story for my cat but yeah I I don't I don't know I don't I can't imagine that they were doing intentionally but maybe well but I mean we've seen we've seen other companies like I you know coming back to other manufacturers that have been trying to crack North America it's a really tricky market 85% of phone sales are between Samsung and Apple it's very mature market but there's money here so you want to you want to try and make some of that cash off of North American consumers especially for their pension for buying premium really high quality devices I I look at like the old ad shenanigans that oneplus went through and you know how much they've grown up in terms of their branding and their advertising and their outreach and it kind of feels like Kwame is making some of those rookie mistakes in this market you know even even if this was a completely innocuous mistake between two different divisions of huawei PR that's kind of a rookie mistake to let something get that far into actual public disclosure for a public community you know that that's gonna come back around and it was if I'm looking at the actual you know posts that Huawei produced that people screenshotted it looked like this was by design it didn't look like you know oh hey beta testers make sure you get out there and do this and you know instead it looked like they were actually trying to gain Best Buy's review system and you know I'll be fair to Bali in this aspect Best Buy shouldn't be putting out a review system for a product in pre-sales this wasn't there should be no room for beta testers elsewhere product users elsewhere to be able to comment on this know this should be a completely isolating experience given that SKUs mean all the difference in terms of what features get used and others I agree I agree with you if um companies like Huawei and this is also something that I think we shared is a criticism of LG if they had a cohesive launch strategy you know I I think if I were Best Buy I would have a really hard time trying to say well this is a phone that's been out in the international market for months we want to sell stuff you know Best Buy Best Buy has an obligation to their shareholders to try and maximize profits on on products sold and they're gonna be buying pallets of these phones they were gonna want them to move and they know that there's an international community of people that have already been using this device I think it would be financially irresponsible of them to hold off on link generation SEO and the type of sort of free advertising that comes with the smartphone community to say you can't review this device because it's we're not technically selling it yet even though we know there are tons of people out there that have had positive and negative experiences with this product just getting around the issue here of the media fake news and fake reviews and all that stuff I guess well I mean you know unfortunately I don't know that there is a good solution I I just don't think we should task best by you know like I don't think we should task a retailer we're trying to unravel that problem in the greater context of like social media and really based phones yeah I think you know they were taken advantage of I think that's a that's about as far as we go the more we make best buy make users jump through hoops to justify the content that they try and produce on Best Buy site to the detriment of its more to the detriment of consumers than it would be to their protection I am oh well I mean they could have room review verifications like Amazon does where you know they make sure you actually bought the product but in this case it wouldn't make any difference because nobody's received it yet right right well no one no one has been able to receive it from Best Buy it has been available in the international community yeah so how do you how do you verify I mean like you can't you can't I mean like you need to send us your ESN your IMEI matches one on this list it's cool it's good it's good and you know give us all your sim card data and your biometric security and then we'll do it you really do own this thing the only way that you would know is like a receipt tracking number at least so you can just put that in but but that's only generated from Best Buy sales and yeah other people will review it too mmm I don't know how to feel in terms of just having that cross contamination or cross pollination of don't seem to care yeah well didn't they pull all of the user generated reviews okay yeah all those but but that's also still a part of part and parcel is Best Buy in a way they are a Content producer on every product that they sell and so you know the the site is the the the may 10 product page on Best Buy's website still links to numerous reviews from other outlets so there was like I guess that could be their first wave verification if you can't buy it in the United States maybe you just link to android police and pocket now that seems like a whole lot of work to do for I mean I don't even I don't think it's unrealistic of them to have just if people are purchasing internationally to allow them to submit reviews ahead of time but I don't know if I don't there's not I was trying to set us up man oh sorry even all the other little people or something like next time I'll go for the bait I'm sorry I was like how can I turn best buy into rotten tomatoes or something explore and users funny I I you know I think something like that is probably gonna be coming soon doesn't diverge do that on their reviews someone does and gadget we also do user scores like if you go to one of our phone reviews you can also click click you know like number scores I think if they also aggregate them from other outlets don't they I came in oh oh that I don't know yeah we haven't started collecting other sites review scores it's just everyone has like a different ranking system like I think we've got a 10 point decimal you know so you can have like a score the young the is the seven point three five two I don't know how well that would jive with like you know a 5 point score a thumb up thumb down something like that so we just always to go to sort what what is what is a you know a seven on the verge versus you know a three cows on a pocket now DxO mark where it's undefined skill can go past 100 without people without having told people about that yeah it's that's not a good look I there I I mean the thing is every individual said I think can be internally consistent I think the XO is phenomenally consistent in how they rank scores I think their arrival at a final number score for their cameras does a disservice to the conversation yeah because one phone that scores a ninety might still not be of the right fit for you versus a phone that scores like an eighty three depending on yeah because what absolute doesn't tell you everything about the entire performance spectrum of it you got a look at the individuals that's why that's why we do review categories when you look at look at something we don't just say oh the phones a 10-inch by it no we've got we've got screen we've got audio we've got software we talk about the details behind it so well talking about the details I think we should take just a quick second to to shout out our sponsor this week what can your data tell you with Google Cloud platform use machine learning at scale to build better products Google clouds AI provides modern machine learning services with pre-trained models and a service to generate your own tailored models our platform is now available as a cloud service to bring unmatched scale and speed to your business applications it predicts so your business can thrive learn more about Google cloud platform by visiting GGO slash get cloud AI I'd be like I can't read the intro of our podcast thankfully for once I actually pulled off a sponsor plug in one take overly terrible there was a perfect read because you should just read ads all the time it's like it should be my job one whole advertorial podcast you know um we should go through before before we kick into the second half of this podcast and some of the other the other stories that we're leading into for MWC I do want to get just a quick rundown on some of the the tweets that we begin and we've been getting using the PN weekly hashtag and I want to go back I hearted one here where did it go somewhere there are so many so this comes from from Vinny mad rocks og Vinny mad rocks I can't actually say is Twitter name because it would kick us out of being pg-13 P and weekly what do you think the odds are that the new LGV 30 will have the Snapdragon 805 you know the big push for a lot of services this year I think machine learning AI algorithms they are processing stuff like that Ryan do you think LG's gonna adopt more of an apple style tick-tock where you put out a piece of hardware and then you just give it some internal bump a year later I know that's the current rumor right what was it it was originally leaked as the V 30s and then yesterday or the day before LG put out a PR about their new AI camera whatever and yeah I mean it certainly looks to be that way we did hear the news they made a big announcement of it that they were going to reassess how they did things in the future and not do a yearly release cycle so I mean I don't know if it's just gonna be a tick-tock like you're describing where they re release the current flagship with purely software improvements in which case I guess all the people who bought the old phone are gonna be pretty pissed or because if all the only difference is software why is it just an update but I don't know I don't know I guess we'll see cuz I mean we'll probably hear about it in a couple weeks here I for me it's this would be actually a really high hope on my list of things what LG needs to address and fix about themselves I support I I wonder if they didn't spend so much time reinventing the wheel in terms of frame and design and build and individual features like camera tech every single year if they be able to use some of those resources towards providing better update security patches and bug fixes or screens separate division come on now actually because that's that's really funny is like some of the most revolutionary work I think I've ever seen was from LG display and having conversations with them like they have almost nothing to do with LG consumer hardware like wasn't there it'll be two completely separate companies in the way that they report to the top brass at LG and wasn't there some news I don't know if you guys reported on it this was just recently er today um the they're doing a new phone that's gonna have a white sub pixel be their next flagship that's allegedly launching in June is going to have a RGB W Orangemen yeah so I mean that that could actually be kind of kind of um that could be a nice way to address some of the disparity and display quality if that gives them sort of the subpixel advantage over Samsung's pentile displays because you know I think Samsung made a concerted play this year to say why bother going more pixel dense in fact consumers seem to be fine with 1080p we're not even gonna tell them out of the box that's what our phones are actually running at and it that kind of gets them around some of the some of the nitpicky er comments on things like the pentile versus RGB stripe that you'll see on an LCD display yeah I'm curious to see yeah that could be interesting III mean again if LG can iterate and actually do something different I I you know that that's a nice little perk in having some real competition in this space for a change yeah well RGB W can get bright can get real bright they when they did it on their TVs LG did it on their they started doing it on the TVs in like mm mm 10 I would say maybe 2009 um the big deal was how much brighter they got because you had a white sub pixel that was able to just blast light and I'm curious to see because this is going to be an LCD panel it's not going to be Emily D and we might this might be like the brightest LCD we've ever seen because of that so it'll be it'll be cool to see LG kind of pushing the envelope even though in so many other ways they're having difficulty doing that one small way something really cool here well cuz I think that would actually match some of the work that Samsung has been doing it's been really interesting in the TV space watching these companies sort of dance around different qualifications like Samsung is all in on OLED for phones and watches but you know their highest end TVs they're they're using that cue LED technology instead because of issues like burnin where you would think that would be a bigger deal on a phone screen which has consistent UI elements that you would need to worry about them burning into the screen it's funny like with each different division of those companies how they're approaching the conversation in different ways with different qualifiers with different cons that they're trying to work out for consumers everybody's trying to convince everybody that what they have is the best regardless of what it is they have I can't wait till you see releases Super LCD 100 yeah someone else was complaining about that - I didn't Goren using the P n weekly hashtag you know why isn't HTC lowering the price of their non OLED phones our manufacturing expenses in Taiwan objectively too I I you know I think I cut down on the Taiwanese manufacturing because they would outsource to China which would be cheaper more than that is isn't it isn't it just like price isn't necessarily reflective of you know what goes into the product and the build quality of the product price is what the market can bear and if agency they consult a phone at you know a premium price tag you know I think a perfect example is the HTC One a9 that's not always the only problem you got Sony who as a result of the the strength of the Japanese market no matter what their phones are gonna be expensive it's no such thing as a budget Sony vice and they never will be because of that you know you know like what what is kind of interesting is seeing them dance around their like their mid tier strategy what were the phones that they they had on hand at CES and again that feels anachronistic like that feels like a mid Ranger from four or five years ago not what we count mid-range like premium mid Rangers today at that kind of price tier yeah when you get to those levels then you have the l cedar it like there's still some stratification going on with Sony so they have to figure out I'll still put it out there though like you know their fingerprint sensor being one of the most obnoxious things to kind of work around for the North American market like get to it but what I mean is like currently today like I think probably their best bang for buck is the XE compact like because you can pick it up for under 500 bucks it's got the Qualcomm 835 it came with Android 8 like that was a screamer little phone that that like was the one the one sort of offshoot of current Sony had seemed to at least kind of make sense in terms of price performance but yeah moving right along we definitely want to get into the to the main sort of topic second topic on this week's show and that's breaking down I Android police you guys have been putting a lot of effort into you know putting together your coverage pocket now we're also doing the same looking at what's going to be the hottest releases come MWC and and I think we should probably lead off with Samsung I think Samsung is gonna be walking away with the most Inc for products around this release now do you think this is kind of a turn for Samsung utilizing the tech press it's gonna be out in Barcelona as opposed to you know forcing the issue on their own press conference way far away from MWC do you think that this is a return to that tech community or do you think that Samsung isn't as confident in this product being able to draw its own press coverage I don't know I can't really speak with too much authority on the subject at MWC because this is my first one and I'm really excited because you've been to cover like a CES right no no no this is my first event okay so oh man Ryan I am so jealous I feel all mobile focused events are downhill from MWC I the way that MWC is organized the way the show is put together the events that happen around Barcelona not necessarily even on the show floor yeah that thing is buttoned down tight it is so well run and you're gonna go to an MWC and then as soon as you cover something like Eva or CES you're like this isn't is nice but the press rooms aren't nearly as well-stocked I'm really looking forward to it good job dude yeah I went straight to the top look at me so proud of you um but no so you know I we we had this image what was a galaxy s3 or galaxy has for where they were still kind of piggybacking on MWC after that they would just do their own events around the world especially hitting the New York tech press it is kind of an interesting return to see them making so much noise about this February timeframe where they know that the tech press is going to be in Barcelona yeah yeah I mean there is the fact that it seems to be a little bit more iterative I mean you had the s in going into the s7 gap here and then si gave us the infinity display and now we're going into another little trough going in so uh you know anything to help out the extra you know to me and second year of a the same side would be really appreciate at this point and you know it's with all the coverage all the people all the big people that are going to be you know covering this kind of thing they're going to have this as their main priority for this you know yeah and they're already all there so they don't have to worry necessarily about attracting the attention there where the attention is so if if it's not something to be super excited about by itself people will still talk about it because we're gonna be there I'm gonna be there you're gonna be there well what what is it the sense been sort of like a with the the Android police editorial staff and then some of your readers it kind of feels to me that the essay was a good recovery from the issues that Samsung faced with the note 7 but in scrambling to recover from the note 7 some things felt like they weren't quite ready for primetime like the the fingerprint scanner location I know it's finally in the right spot right well so the leaks make it look like it is fun so what is the sense here I mean you know Samsung didn't need to fix a lot from the SI in the the opinion of a lot of the tech press do we need them to do anything more radical is it is it okay that Samsung takes a year just to kind of clean up a few of the little design funky well maybe I mean I've still no matter how much time goes on you will still hear people complaining about Samsung software as we talked about earlier and I've heard the same complaints with the SaaS 8 plus is that compared to the software on the node 8 it's just not as good and so maybe we'll see some better software on the whatever the upcoming phone is camera can always be improved camera phones can always be proved the pixel to and to excel sort of dethroned the glory of the OData and the SI but if rumor is there to to be to be believed it sounds like Samsung's gonna be doing some cool stuff with the camera on the yes 9 it's totally unique that so we'll see I mean there is only so much that the variable aperture that's being teens from F 1.5 to 2.4 I'm not sure if it's a truly variable or if it's just to set apertures but like I'm not sure I can't really imagine what kind of little tricks they could pull off of that so it's gonna be interesting to see on that front I want to talk about price because this is the sign of another like a little step up towards heaven in terms of just me just getting the price up mm are you trying to lock yourself in a closet with Samsung right now are you hoping for your 7 minutes I mean I apologize for how body the show just got giving me a case of the vapors there so so 100 pounds more is the word your thoughts I'm not gonna well yes yes it was already expensive I'm sorry go ahead oh no no because Ryan because I think that goes hand in hand with the other thing that I wanted to bring up to what we've got this lobster potting effect on pricing again what the market can bear and you can't back it off because that price tag does seem to speak to people as to quality product it's an emotional response it costs the same as an iPhone that must mean they're trying to make it compete against an iPhone but do you think that that price is gonna go hand-in-hand with bifurcating the Galaxy S line for the first time having features on the bigger s phone that won't make it to the smaller s phone something that Samsung has historically been very good about not dividing their consumer facing fashion handset maybe maybe I mean I haven't heard anything to that effect but like an explanation that like that would make sense if there is more a price difference between the two models I could be rose-colored glasses of my youth but I remember a time when flagship phones were $500 now we're up around a thousand I don't I don't if they're gonna be 100 pounds more what does I work out to usually when it's in the u.s. at least a hundred bucks more like we're talking about a thousand dollar phone here that's I would expect the s9 + to start coming in somewhere around the price of last year's note so we're in that $900 plus territory it's it's tricky because you don't want to have to have the like I think any conversation in tech commentary is it worth it you know the second you ask that question I think that question is inherently toxic to the design of a gadget it's more about can you can you really find out who this phone is for I have a harder time nailing the audience at a $900 price point in the United States especially like in my own circle of family and friends people holding onto their phones longer and quite a few of my family members looking mid-range and entry-level you know my my millennial sister going with moto G Series phones and like fit millennial - it's okay well like I'm right on that cusp or no one wants me I'm not a Gen X or I'm not a millennial no one wants me my money is irrelevant but brick right on the question exciting like also making that that choice where she doesn't need certain bells and whistles and if she smashes her phone replacing the entire phone is less expensive than replacing the back glass on an iPhone yeah you know like you were starting to entertain some of these conversations more publicly in the United States and it seems to be less of a virtue signal or less of a fashion signal when you pull out your phone like no one's really that impressed if you have an iPhone anymore you know a 3GS like that was a status symbol yeah along with your purse in your shoes now it's ubiquitous like everyone needs to have one it's less of a luxury item I don't know if that's necessarily the case I know in the circles that we we circulate within that might be the case that it's no longer a big deal to have an iPhone but I know that there was a discussion about this subject on the reddit actually recently and someone pointed out a comment a tag on Twitter something about green bubbles and I guess in popular opinion people are actually still really into the idea of the iPhone being a superior product of a status symbol and how if you have green bubbles in your your SMS your chat up get avoid that guy so I mean the color is green yeah oh that's hilarious so but but again like that that's that's sort of an emotional response it's not necessarily the rational response I yeah I guess I am not into that lifestyle where I would yeah be looking at the the where a notification came in from well that makes sense because I'm also an Android user so we don't have a messaging platform really speak I cry every day I'm like every day I pour out just like a little v for uh for for Google Hangouts and what it could have been so so yeah that's Samsung I'll be curious to see if because one of the rumors I'm most concerned about is is like this will be the first galaxy that has a different camera sensor for the smaller phone again it's totally a rumor we won't know until these things are actually here but that makes me for some reason that makes me squirrely that makes me nervous about seeing Samsung do something like that when before like the biggest change between the s8 and the si+ was just battery sizes and screen size so it made sense that there was very little difference between those two handsets I really hope that we don't see further division for Samsung Hardware especially because I think they already struggle to keep up with software demands so if you have yet additional differences between their phones well it's already the joke isn't it already the joke that you're not going to get an update for your Samsung phone until the next phone is out yeah not to mention there's always the Android dirty word fragmentation because how much more difficult if you've got different SK uses they're all using the same hardware part it's like oh well you know you update one you can update both but it's not the case if you've got two phones that use two totally different sets of hardware as well because then it's gonna be more work to update them and then they're locked on Verizon so you can't even like get three months later you get your update Oreo so one of the things that I actually think was kind of interesting someone else posted this I'm so sorry I'm so bad at at your attribution for you know like when someone tweets me something and I have to go back through my chain but someone else had a theory that one of the reasons why Samsung was entertaining doing their s 9 release closer to MWC was that they were gonna face significantly less competition from other players like LG do we do we think LG's gonna try and join this conversation with the tech press in Barcelona in any meaningful way like they might not have anything directly to show off maybe they can talk about a refresh on a V 30 or a g6 or something like that but this used to be a staple for them in doing outreach I mean it's not just what you put the press release out on it's also just maintaining all of the relationships with all of the authors and editors and reviewers that are going to be on the ground there yeah I don't know I they're definitely the number of rumors about LG the V 30s or whatever it's going to be called I've been picking up as we get closer so I definitely think that certainly sounds to me like they're going to be announcing something yeah yeah in terms of that because Google we have bixby so already they're kind of stepping behind this now how well they are able to build this out we're not sure maybe they could have a more refined product by the end but perhaps even the g7 maybe this summer that maybe this fall or something but you know just having this as a step up and yet I think I think it was a good idea to count this developed is like this like the grown pains process with an iteration of the current flagship that sounds like a pretty good thing to have a reliable testament on but doesn't make it pretty easy for a Samsung to come into MWC and steal everyone's thunder with their event though because now they don't need a separate one HTC's not gonna be doing anything else he's gonna be talking about AI I mean it's they're pretty sure does that does that leave like the major player is Huawei as we we should expect some kind of traction on a p20 or P 11 or whatever yes sir yeah again I mean they'll probably call it six different things for every different region that they ship to is is this an opportunity for a huawei to try and generate more buzz or do we think that that barcelone is going to be just unholy dominated by Samsung discussion this year with especially with the reason news about Huawei I don't know everything that every time we cover it every time you cover it every time you know people from various outlets discuss Huawei at MWC it's going to be tinged with the recent developments of the Senate talking about how the FBI and CIA don't trust Huawei so I don't know if I hope they can put a positive spin on their PR at the event because they need it [Laughter] yeah curat you know because III think that's one of those things like we love building up companies and tearing them down and then we love to come back story like all of this is is high drama for a smartphone fans the know I was gonna say but the the the the idea that this is an opportunity for them to join the discussion they'll have a public platform the tech press is gonna be there were we know any story about Huawei is gonna come with the recent issues they've had between Best Buy and North American law enforcement so if they if they can join that conversation in a meaningful fashion that could actually be a really big step towards you know launching a new phone you know they're in the mindshare right now people are asking me about huawei products they see them we've seen them make little tiny inroads you can buy a an honor at you know target the May 10 has had more interest I think than any other hallway that I've reviewed in the past I even showed it off on like morning news here in LA like they actually let me pull a phone that wasn't an iPhone like a morning news broadcast so they're there does seem to be this broad awareness of a brand that two years ago just completely didn't exist it I guess it's just like do we have faith that any kind of PR team right now in this political climate can capitalize on that awareness right now I think it's certainly possible like they say there's no there's no such thing as bad PR if anything people are just talking about Huawei now they're talking about them with a distinctly negative connotation as a result of North American law enforcement but they're talking about them and it's very easy to change a conversation that's negative like that positive I I'll be interested to see if the CEO of hallway with his history of going off-script manages to say anything interesting at MWC just taking out that hate on AT&T and Verizon is beautiful it was beautiful yeah I'm gonna go against the notion here of having this be such a bit the government report be such a big deal because they're already addressing the rest of the world I mean the u.s. is kind of a hard nut to crack but they're trying to keep up the pace in Germany UK the the markets that they're already dominating and this is just another flagship product that will add on to that so if anything they have I think there are more important fret of fish to fry for the moments and they're just trying to get I mean where are we going to talk about because the p20 is not going to matter to the US anyways they never release feed major p-series things with a with a splash at least in the US where they tend to go for the mates more often the part of CBS a lot of these issues are probably irrelevant to the international Tech press that might be covering huawei yeah so well we get rid of the logo in there the under the screen bothers that bothers me so badly the peacocking put on the back in case you were looking at your phone and you forgot what phone you bought you can always will sound gross what was a peacock wha we getting back to just a few of these other rumors uh other companies are definitely gonna be trying to make some noise I think one of the more compelling designs I've seen I would be me mixed to all those leaks look beautiful don't they those leaks look amazing I got into some really spiky and heated conversations on my personal channel as I was talking about how I'm not a big fan of the iPhone 10 not me and that's fine for iOS users I'm sure you can get used to it but I really hope to not see a bunch of copycats and we've seen some indication that there are a few manufacturers that are looking to piggyback on the knotch design the unibrow design of the iPhone 10 and that there was that story that Google was gonna be building in better support for Androids to recognize those kinds of differences in hardware to adapt the UI elements around something which might intrude on the screen if you were to do that I think Xiaomi may have just found the best possible solution until we can hide a camera sensor under the screen yeah or until we can just rationalize getting rid of the front-facing camera I so infrequently use mine I'd be fine getting a phone doesn't have it yeah I know well the thing is like it that'll never happen because I think there's been such a consumer look at oh boy you know Opel used to try and be bleeding edge and then they came out with like 12 different selfie camera phones and which Oppo was more successful yeah we're definitely not the target audience for this sort of stuff no I see I have this dream that eventually a smartphone manufacturer just like we were figuring out fingerprint sensor under the display I'm hoping that we can figure out selfie camera under the display because it's the biggest lie of science fiction is that you can make eye contact with whoever your video chatting with and hear like maybe something we could make that a reality and then not have anything interrupting the top of the screen instead but until we get to that point the me macstew looks like a phenomenal solution and they got rid of the chin they must have switched to a more lady to do it because they need that flexible substrate to wrap around like that's what's gotta be gotta be a Modi and you pair that with like a really hot chips I get that a 45 in there give me some RAM and some storage MIUI and you and you like Nova Launcher on top okay one dream one can dream I still have hopes that we'll see we'll see even more manufacturers sort of joining Android one and giving some of those solutions some attention for first world markets I just I feel so many consumers are left out in the cold for even just the basics like we were just talking about Android one in our podcast yesterday um it's not really anything like what they said it it'd be it's Android one was supposed to be for emerging markets and now it's really just the new Google Play edition and we've got Android go is going to replace the old Android one and soon enough Android goes gonna be a thousand dollars and then we'll have like an Android yeah or and you like at some point do they even just say it's Android for the poor the lesson UK edition of Android oh my god less versions of names no even my crying to face things like you know Windows Signature Edition where you you can't release this product unless you promise you're not gonna fill it with a whole bunch of crap and that's what Signature Edition means and like there until we can get project fuchsia off the ground where it would make Google they would give Google more of an iron-fisted approach to managing an OS architecture it's likely there be way less tinkering behind the scenes available for they could be just as draconian in terms of Google Play certification requirements and accomplish things that way they just choose not to well but I mean we've been seeing we've been seeing the move in that direction though look at like yeah little yeah look at project treble you know you had to sign on to project treble if you release a phone that's that comes pre-loaded with Oreo yeah and and I knew the new rule about ads you can't have an app that monetize is on the lockscreen unless that's its sole function and also the the changes to background processes yeah you know you know you you can't really run your own custom software solution for managing background resources now moving forward there seems to be a little bit more there that's all well and good but we're still gonna continue to face this this talking point like Bloomberg they so we know Android P is gonna come out with a whole bunch of different updates and new software services probably a major focus on AI machine learning algorithms augmented reality blah blah blah blah blah the one thing Bloomberg focused on was better support for the notch so that Android phones can copy Apple they spent two minutes on TV that was the main takeaway that they decided to focus on with the rumors coming out about Android that's the easier idea to push right haha androids are still copycats look at everybody at laugh laugh at this terminal ego sphere right but but isn't a part of this just the fact that like we're always going to have this problem this image problem this optics problem where a new version of Android comes out and it might see 20% adoption in the first year oh that is optimistic like I was even trying to premise that it isn't nougat up to almost 30 percent now it's not a year old no it's it's older than 18 months yes 15 months I mean like what was the first nougat shipping device that was it the pixel that was the pixel wasn't it yeah that was the the images came out in late August and the pixels shipped in October oh okay so no I was for some reason I was pushing that even just a little I was pushing that to like November so no it is it is like 16 months so yeah I was even picking up only just reached the last platform distribution there's one point five percent it's uh it's not great I can quote them and I really do believe that we'll see slower adoption on Oreo because of some of those changes to things like project treble yes and mandatory and certifications it's this is not a good luck for a platformer though I don't see anything that corrects this course until until Google kind of just walks away and says screw it we're gonna do the Microsoft business model where we control everything well we'll see we got to see what the long-term effects of treble are going to be because treble is you combine the fact that we're gonna have treble with new long term stable kernels that are gonna be out for longer than two years now we've got what six they're doing six year releases for LTS so between the two you've got treble releases or the treble architecture which makes it much easier to do updates and you have the fact that the hardest thing to about updates is getting the binaries and your kernel working on your device you've got six years of support on your kernel so it'll make delivering updates a lot easier so in in two or three years we might see a huge upswing in terms of the rate of updates to the latest version and it could entirely solve the fragmentation problem once all devices have been switched over to trouble because it will yeah but I mean like so I mean this is this is this is what we're hoping for yeah yeah we won't we won't know until until it's been years from now two or three years we'll have a good idea the only a few devices support rebel right now so here's here's my super cynical counterpoint to that argument where if Google tries to exert more pressure over the Android ecosystem again just just super low probability I don't think this is a likely outcome and I not advocating for anything like this just as we're getting into one of those major refreshes like Google tries to transition over to something like project fuchsia and I'm saying like six or seven year time timeframe from from where we are today that's a huge opportunity for someone else to walk in the space and do something disruptive like if we ever thought that Tizen could be an actual competitor that's exactly the wedge moment where Samsung could just say you know what we've got all the infrastructure we need we've got all our own custom services we'll roll our own and everyone loves Bixby you know there you go or you know like I really I will be very disappointed if even four years from now three years from now we are still interacting with mobile data services in the same block face glowing rectangle touch squared get app kind of way this is and I'm gonna take us off for just another short - a little tangent but how did you uh did you guys check out Intel vaunt set the glasses the glasses so with all of the data that we're collecting on things like machine learning camera algorithms and and a are starting to make its presence known to consumers the idea that I could just pop on a pair of glasses and have lasers shoot directly into my eyes to give me a heads-up display 24/7 365 would go a long ways towards me never wanting to pull my phone out of my pocket ever again yeah you wouldn't need one at that point right and so is it is it as critical it my theory is it would become less critical my hypothesis not my theory my hypothesis would be it would be even less critical it would mean even less to me what front-end graphic UI operating system I'm run on my pocketable glowing rectangle when information is organically delivered to me for most of the social interactions that I need to have for some of the work but you wouldn't have the app ecosystem that's part of the problem is if you abandon something like Android you've got a huge library of of applications to draw upon and that suddenly all of your consumers would no longer have access to Samsung's switches to Tizen if it doesn't have some kind of backwards compatibility with emulation or something with Android applications there gonna be a lot of angry people well but if the the zeitgeist of that is happening at the same time is a major shift in interacting with that data and your hands and you can do it make a separate protocol for smart glasses to interact with your facebook notifications like you know you already have to redesign the feed so that it can pop up on my eye and I'm using like head gestures to like like everyone develops nervous tics or Tourette's commands or you move your hand in the air if that's all ready to change then I think it's less dangerous for a company to go off and try and roll their own at that point it's just in our SDK that they have to pile on top and update every so often so and they'll have to employ new teams for that it's just I mean the if they're going to have to make that investment then they have to do it works in the first place if we can enter a transitionary period like that I suppose the magnitude of the transition doesn't matter anymore yeah that's that's definitely true I do want to wrap up get us just kind of get back on track to finish up some MWC rumor roundup and some of the other things I this is something that I've I've been noticing like this tiny but vocally passionate little community of people that were on board ZTE in the axon seven um what have you guys seen maybe uh on Android police like has there been any chatter about the upcoming rumor about a follow up finally a true follow-up to the axon 7 yeah I don't remember if we reported on it I thought I heard III know I remembered reading something but I think we I have decided not to cover it um they just opened their Oreo beta program for the axon seven right and I thought I'd remember I guess maybe we'll see it MWC I remembered vaguely reading something about the new version but not know the details they are to me a little bit more stock the software and as presumably they're gonna carry this over to what they're doing for advocacy which is apparently the blade veenai which was leaked in perpetuity last year because apparently they can't keep their sites from publishing things do so so I mean again it's it's a rumor that's feeling pretty credible because ete leaks like a sieve but yeah the the hardware at least is addressed in the software they they're making promises but so far it seems we're getting close to it and then the axon 9 which we heard from when they were launching the axon and in China that was from the CEO saying talking about the name of the next device which would be the axon 9 so well see this is where I think this conversation gets kind of interesting again 2016 was an amazing year for mid Rangers between the honoré the the oneplus and the the axon I loved Moto's and the pile of Moto's right exactly especially like entry level to that mid tier that was a really strong year for breaking up phones in that 3 to $500 price bracket and feeling like we were really getting low compromises competing up against much more expensive flagships now with the main players your Apple Samsung breaking that thousand dollar priced here like is this the right time for ZTE to try and rejoin the conversation they sat out 2017 there was some disappointment that there wasn't more momentum building on the success of the axon 7 but do they rejoin the conversation at a better time yeah maybe especially if they don't push the price too high because with as you said with everybody pushing everything up towards $1,000 the new 500 iPhone could go far especially if it's if it takes the oneplus route and you've got the same so see that you've gotten $1,000 fellas right you got fast storage you've got plenty of RAM you've got a good display and the only thing you're sacrificing is the software experience it's some level then people will jump on it I know for me especially if they can reach if they can also emulate you know what made the axon seven so interesting was that out of nowhere comes this mid-range ER phone that they delivered this amazing audio experience yep it has centers and a huge amp the wolfson deck yeah yeah like that they this is my been my biggest problem with LG is they objectively have a best feature you know there are so many like oh well it's your opinion if you like pixel camera over a Galaxy camera or vice versa um it's an objective bullet point fact that the V 30 has the best headphone jack on any device so if you care about listen to audio this should be on your list and the axon 7 was right in that league I mean it was so close to not talk about it just feels like such a a wasted opportunity and it worries me that if axon 9 doesn't follow in that footsteps with one feature just one bullet point that's a true differentiator then I think they're just gonna get lost in the rest of the conversation it's just another also-ran a me-too product could be I mean the differentiator could simply be prices we're pointing out if enough yeah because you've got stuff like the 1 + 5 t which price to performance and value of the purchase it's my favorite phone right now my pixel 2 XL is a better phone objectively better phone in every way but if I I can buy 2 5 TS for the same quality I came from my pixel to excel pixels bitty 5 T's a great phone well and especially with Huawei absent largely from these markets like we never got the follow up honor rate either like the honor 9 kinda made it out to a couple markets but not not with any of the same fanfare consistency or reliability that the the honor 8 did so I'm sorry I have to I was looking at the game weekly feed and this this mean from Renato just he's just the rig it's a picture of Juan looking depressed rain drops drop tops my face when she that's awesome Oh Renato I could kiss you on the mouth I'm so cranky about the it's like I'm actually not cranky about the iPhone 10 on its own I'm cranky about Apple doing something that then other people are going to emulate just because Apple did it I know because there are companies that did the notch and didn't do it in an in a way like that like the essential phone which I know Jules absolutely loves for no good reason taken Jules own it own that means I really like the shape of it but it's an objectively it's not a not a great phone but the latest Oreo update does Oreo beta to improves it significantly well did they ever clean up the the camera its proud I mean if you've never used like the camera on the pixel to its its mid-range err but yeah once you've used one of the really nice cameras it's not it's not guys I think the thing that really makes me great that that face that mean came out of me complaining about the setup and like III think objectively knotch is a bad design choice I think it yeah interrupts the most important aspect of using a modern smartphone is the display that's the portal through which we utilize all of this stuff and to cut into that you you have to have a good reason I don't think a beefier web cam a beefier selfie camera is a good enough reason to interrupt the display that we use for everything not really gaining anything from the extra space it provides because all that's up there or notifications it's not like you're watching a video unless you choose to intentionally accept a piece of it being cut away if you zoom in like you're not you not seeing it's gonna be letterboxed what's the end pillar that's probably - yeah I mean the best benefit that you get out of that is being able to control an alligator's face and like that's doing well but but again all of that everything that Apple did with hardware I am sure is scientifically better than replicating those processes in software in real world usage the consumer practicality of that I think software will iterate faster and improve upon the current hardware experience and it's gonna look dated in another six months it's gonna look silly in another six months someone passed me along do you guys ever watch Lewis Rothman's videos he's that really cranky repair guy on the East Coast he has a whole bunch of videos talking about how difficult it is to work with Apple on repair guides and stuff like that he's become a huge advocate for right to repair - because he runs a shop you know like that's yeah literally his bread and butter but he posted me that it posted this one video and I'm gonna I'm gonna butcher this and I'm also gonna have to censor it a little um so it's not exactly what he said but it's like companies that copy Apple are looking you know say you've got this businessman and he's super successful and he's up at like 4:00 in the morning every day goes to bed at like 11:00 or midnight it takes a 20 minute break for lunch on the pulse in the thick of it hustling his butt off and every day that he gets home from work he rubs jello all over his chest while listening to Yanni and it would be like another person saying oh well to be successful I also need to rub jello all over my chest and listen to Yanni and ignores like everything else about what made a businessman successful it likes that if that secret ingredient that you put into the pot I'm not gonna work 20-hour days and never take a break for lunch and sacrifice my relationship with my family I'm just going to rub the jello on my chest and then I'll be just like that successful businessman copying the knotch kind of feels like that yeah you know it's like correlation is is somehow causation and in addition to that I need to ignore everything else I'm just gonna copy their dumbest design flaw of their most expensive product and that's what's gonna push me over the edge here's the thing if you're working 20 hours a day in public then you do the whole jello rubbing thing in public then that would be the case here for the knotch but until then you know I don't think I don't think it's a one-to-one comparison that you can safely make I got well I think that's that that is actually perfectly exemplifying what it is that I think he's trying to accomplish with that terrible grotesque metaphor um a couple other things to some interesting news a soos rejoining the conversation also looking at they might have something that's a little bit more iPhone like and who else Alcatel so we might have some interesting chatter on entry-level phones - I'm a big fan of the Idol series of phones especially bringing things like stereo speakers to $200 phones could be some interesting things to check out from MWC this year - I think you know in light of LG's absence I think we're still gonna have some fun things to talk about definitely especially without the towel that they're trying to revamp their lineup this year and focus on different features as a corset that can be spread among the bloat here so like anywhere from 100 to 300 dollars that's what they're trying to do and we've got the new Nokia's what is it the Nokia one a little little Android gear little thing right there I kind of want to see where those that's adorable how how much fun was that hmd announcement that they've now cracked I think just under top 10 sales like 4.4 million yeah didn't do nokia branded phones just like unseat most of the market in their first year of operation as a solo entity brand recognition that label mean something man like if they can iterate I'm revisiting the Lumia 1020 for another video and like it would be pretty killer now to build enough momentum for them to start pushing the boundaries like Nokia of all did like even even better if they can make their promises to unlock the bootloader and release the kernel sources for their phones like they're required to by the GPL that'd be cool that would be neat yeah and I think that was the perfect note to go out Ryan thank you so much for joining us especially kind of sitting through some of our technical difficulties and you know not just running screaming especially since Jules is currently in your home right now is I where where can people find you especially your your personal social media you're gonna be hitting your first MWC with every police super excited and it helps her that what what do you want people to know where can people find that coverage and and what are you hoping to to share with folks I guess they can find me at Android police air please calm I tweet sometimes mostly about non not really really mostly obscene things cool at yet and just my name at right Hager the soft soft linen a lot of linen a lot of linen a lot of leather it's pretty much mostly linen and leather folks that's gonna be our next our next podcast topic so you'll definitely good times well and there you have it folks another episode of the pocket net weekly has come and gone this show is over but the conversation continues on Twitter where you can find Jules is that point Jules and I'm humbly at some gadget guy Ryan is Ryan Hager we'll have a link down below the the video where you can click on that and give him a follow I'm super jealous his first trade shows gonna be it's 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