Gadgetory

from pocketnow.com this is pocketnow weekly hello and welcome to episode 01 seven of the pocket now weekly the once-a-week podcast from pocketnow.com where we discuss what's hot and what's cool in the world of mobile technology Windows Android iPhone and sometimes even blackberry I'm your host Michael Fisher senior editor at pocket now and I'm joined by our managing editor and Tandy Naja good afternoon to you sir good morning everybody good morning around the world and good morning post elections USA yeah in the yes indeed and by our android guy the man with the chicken coop Joe Levi good morning to you good morning me and my nine hens who lay eggs for me every day I'll say hello I absolutely love it I love love love that you Joe and I had a conversation off online the other day and I Joe is like I'll help you out with this html5 thing but I got to go out and finish building this chicken coop I'm like you know that is so far removed from my experience that I want to hear more about that pretty much every day so Joe I can't wait to have lunch with you like you you recently had with a fan right you did I did I did I got to to go out to lunch with a fan from Poland and his his father and his father's friend we went out ironically for indian food since they're from poland and well i'm part native american so i guess there's our indian thai over I didn't know you were a native american brother of mine hey man I wonder absolutely i'm half Paiute I got to use my Paiute tribal ID card to vote whoa I'm only an eighth so I have no room to speak but you know that's still always always nice to meet a former member of the North American community this America and polish remember I mean you know the the first North American community yeah what were you saying Tony this American polish indian international lunch reminds me of our time back in Berlin Berlin American Romanian in Germany went to an Italian restaurant yes and of course the Romanian as was his want spoke Italian and speaks everything under the Sun it's close it's all evens closely Romanian as well it was great well anyway um I shall look forward to to meeting you someday Joe in person and and and and and and seeing your chicken coop and I will bring I was bring your uh I will bring my combat collection to you that'll be awesome we're gonna talk about that later these we are gonna talk about that a little later in the episode but first let's jump into our tour Brandon minimum named thought thread Brandon is off today but his thought thread remains as it always does at the top of the the podcast we had a story recently actually written by Joe and disc mentioned to me by Tony that we should probably talk about on a podcast about the new dmca smartphone and tablet exemptions these are legal parameters that govern licensing if you're not familiar listeners for music and digital content Joe the first sub head of your article says what does any of this have to do with smartphones and tablets I'm you said it better than me fill us in on what's going on here well a little bit more background this is something that I wanted to talk about and I had to fight Steven for it in fact we had it split up so we were going to do a collaborative article but some hurricane or something Nix that so you just got my perspective the DMCA a lot of people think that the DMCA is just an American thing it's just us and yes it is a US law it stands for the Digital Millennium Copyright Act it was actually sponsored introduced and RAM rotted through the Senate by my very own senator orrin hatch out here in Utah really I you gotta so proud no I am he said that he was doing this for the recording artist because he was one because he he writes music and has like two or three albums that really are not that great but but it was for him and his family people like him in the state of Utah but this applies not only to in the States but also to our international friends because the DMCA was essentially the roll up of two treaties that came from the world intellectual property organization which I politely called the whip oh and so they rolled up these international treaties into US law it's not the legal way to do things in the US but we're not going to talk politics what this does essentially is it takes the Copyright Act which we've had since way back in nineteen seventy-six which essentially says you can't copy stuff that's not yours and sell it make profit with it use it without the owner's consent except in these very few fair use scenarios right know if it's personal use if you're making a personal backup or an archive if you're using it for education for example that's fair use or if you're making a parody that's where we got weird al yankovic from because it's bitch parody it's funny all fair use the DMCA try to apply that or try to bring the Copyright Act into modern technologies into an Internet era where people were well this came about mainly because of Napster and kazaa and limewire and all those other sharing sites where you'd rip your music to mp3 share a folder and then anyone in the world could download your version of Metallica's Enter Sandman and well then at that point you were distributing content that you didn't have a license to distribute it wasn't yours to give away you know you're giving away a copy of it so this law applied to that unfortunately there's a little teeny bit that said not only can you not copy stuff you can't break any type of an encryption schema right in Grenada prevents which normally would prevent copying yeah it attempts to yeah but not only that you couldn't even attempt to circumvent that encryption schema right now that means all of our DVDs and all of our blu rays which we didn't have when this task but we do now all of those are encrypted so if you want to make a backup copy that I don't know put on your Windows 8 tablet now or your Android or your iPhone well you can't do that because you're breaking an encryption schema so how does that apply to smartphones and tablets smartphones and tablets usually come locked from the manufacturer so attempting to lock that is arguably unlawful or attempted to unmil yeah attempting to unlock that lock yes so that wasn't a problem when the librarian of Congress carved out a little exemption for smartphones a couple of years back and said hey we agree you should be able to unlock your smartphone so you can take it to another carrier or install other apps on it or whatnot so librarian of Congress carved down an exemption for us everything was great well since then we've had tablets come and that exemption didn't apply and still doesn't apply to tablets and now they've revamped the whole thing all over again library and if Congress says yes unlocking phones is just fine but only until January 2013 after that no more unlucky what is it up for a vote after that or is it just is it just forbidden after that I mean what's the deal it's it is just forbidden after that until it comes up for review again and i believe it's every three years every four years he does they come up for review so I so that there's a there's a world that that might exist in the near future we're unlocking your phone is is unlawful because you're breaking encryption and that world exists for every smartphone purchased after January of 2013 well that that would be that would be not any fun at all I like there's there's a point listeners if you haven't read the article is where Jojo makes the analogy that we're getting to the point where ownership is nothing more than a license to use and that license can describe how and where we use what we've purchased it's like saying you can't use the milk you bought to bake bread and make a sandwich from it instead you have to buy your sandwich from someone licensed to sell you one that is not true and I will disagree with you all right now Tony I know you had a lot to say on this yeah I'm I have so many things to say I don't know where to begin but let's begin with your particular example I know the main comment everybody will bring up is that I purchase the phone the phone is mine I should be able to do with it whatever I want now we have to make a difference between the phone itself which is the object the plastic the glass and the software while you definitely own the plastic the object itself you do not own the software as with most licensing terms the software is not your property the software is the there copyright owner's property and you have the right to use that particular software under the terms of the end-user license agreement so your particular example does not apply with the milk I understand what you're trying to say but in this particular case we are looking at a intellectual creation intellectual work which is yours to use for instance when you go to a hotel and you check in for three nights you have the right to use the room but you have no property rights on any objects within that room so this is this is for for for that part of the discussion now I know that people want to do hex and tweaks and mods and stuff like that let me start this off with an example there's there's there's your phone and there's your software and they're this thing which is the security which is either the bootloader or the the lack of routing capabilities which is the barrier between you and the software let's imagine this when you go and try to break in to your neighbor's house you open the door you don't enter his house you don't steal anything from his house you are still committing a crime even attempting to open a door which is not yours with a key is also a crime so in this particular example attempting to unlock a phone is or was considered a crime de facto so the key takeaway here how should I put this in into both non legal terms and English that we can get back always and we need to get back always to the fear use of the intended software what is fair use the user can only unlock his phone under the limits of the fair usage the phone was not intended to be tinkered with in terms of flashing roms Android might be an open source and free up to an extent the software bit but it is in any case protected by an end user license agreement so if you have any comments on what I just said up until now that's why I'm well out of my depth Joe well and I agree the the statement that I was making about baking the bread was you know obviously an extreme edge case but it seems to be the direction that we're heading with Android particularly once i have my my hardware unless it's the geeks phone which is meant to be running custom custom roms on it but once i have that it essentially is just a computer in my pocket i should be able to do as I please and this is where our opinions are going to diverge if I want to for example my desktop computer if I want to install windows 7 on it I can as I has analyzed were absolutely right if i want to install linux on it i can if i want to write my own operating system and put it on it I can with my android powered device if I want to run cyanogenmod on my galaxy nexus I can that's okay know that that's again that's where you can't because cyanogenmod is a version of Android which is not covered covered by your license agreement when you purchase the android phone which you are holding right now the fraction of the price of that phone was the license of the software and the costs for other licenses between Microsoft and the OEMs Microsoft that or any other trade mark mark owner and Google so that particular fraction of the price does not apply to another copy of Android which is in my opinion illegal within South cyanogenmod I for the Google Apps part of the discussion not the operating system you're correct for for the AOSP Android the operating system is open source it's available for anybody who wants to get it and and build a copy and put it on their device so yeah and it's not went the rounds with Google and eventually came to a nice settlement said yes you're just fine distributing Android as cyanogenmod but you cannot distribute the google apps or gaps is a link to come because you haven't bought a license for that correct yeah so as far as that goes yes I can put that on my device unless and this is where the DMCA comes in unless my device manufacturer whether on their own or at the requirement of their carrier has locked that bootloader so that they are trying to prohibit me from doing that arguably that is circumventing a quote unquote copy protection scheme which I still don't think it is to try and put something else on it that's what is interesting to me about this whole thing that that this there's this copy protection scheme argument has been applied to something you know it was originally written for to protect copyright to protect creative content not necessarily operating systems but it has been applied seemingly across a great divide to two operating systems and I don't know why why that is and why that's possible let me tell you why it well it doesn't really make a lot of sense mate please tell me why as Joe implied Android yes it is free when we were talking about pure vanilla Android as Google intended it to be but when you purchase a film from any and every OEM out there that's not vanilla you get samsung / HTC / motorola copyrighted materials on that whether we're talking about the launcher an application for any yet or anything which was baked into operating system and the lock the bootloader locking procedure is protecting that bit of copyright on your phone well I get that I mean that yeah you know it's I i would like to I would I think that you guys have made some some awesome points in each camp I tend to get very very cautious when I'm dealing with this kind of stuff because it is it's just so it's confusing it's also get one of those matters that is confusing but it's also really easy to get indignant about it because you know you're being told how to how to use something that whether it's legally true or not yes you you feel like you bought and you should be able to drive your car that you bought where you want or whatever that's a stupid analogy it's early in the morning is you but I just want to say something I'll wrap it up that's what i was getting in toad like I don't want you to have a minute to wrap up I don't want to minimalize or minimize the the law itself because that's what I've learned that's what I know how what to do when I know how to respect the law but we have a saying here in Romania i'm going to only tell you the translation and it goes like this an uncut thief is an honest seller or somebody an honest commercial so the thing is until you're not caught you can do whatever you want all those people who are downloading torrents and cheering music and stuff all the illegal stuff are not behind bars so there's no police which is looking actively whether you jailbreak your phone at night on your computer or not I think the bigger picture here is that when an OEM or carrier decides to lock a phone it is because they don't want to deal with the boast hacking support when somebody or something which they apply goes wrong and then everybody asks for a refund or replacement off of the unit itself beyond the pickle copyright protection a discussion or idea jodi of a final note out there yeah i think that we're definitely going erection that I don't think is the best direction for us to be headed if i buy again my computer and want to even if it comes with Windows pre-loaded on it and I've paid a license for something that I'm not going to use because i'm going to throw linux on it i should be able to do that no one should be able to to take that capability away from me whether technologically or lawfully whatever the law says that that just ain't right so as soon as and you know being kind of a gun guy on the side one of the sayings in in that camp is if you make it a crime to own a gun only criminals will own guns so if you make it a crime to root and put custom roms on your phone well then only criminals are going to do that because you've made it a crime it inherently isn't damaging anyone to Tony's point if I brick my phone and I try and take it back for warranty replacement they got ways of telling you know what you unlock the bootloader you avoided your warranty doing that that was the chance that you took that was the assumption of risk that you took and in every one of our articles where we talked about doing that step zero is always assume the risk you might break things here doing it right doing it wrong aliens coming down and doing something to your phone in the sleet in your sleep whatever the case may be you're taking that chance because you can because it's yours to take that chance with yeah but what what I'm trying to say here and I'm gonna wrap it up right now just with this last observation is that they are trying and I think rightfully trying to stop people from and I'm gonna give you just an example from the top of my head to port I don't know TouchWiz from a Samsung device to an HTC device or stopping them from porting nokia drive from a Lumia 920 to and HTC windows phone 8x so this is probably the the amount and the exact protection which they are trying to impose agreed absolutely but using that same logic we need to outlaw copy jeans because you can copy books with them absolutely there is that onion vcrs as well which started off this whole this whole copyright discussion really or Betamax machines in the 70 yeah we could go on forever ago we could have a whole podcast about this and I would probably not stay awake throughout it and I loved hearing I do love here in the discussion I think it's right very important to the future of the industry um we will be covering more of this stuff as it as it happens I mean a joke considering your input regarding when the stuff comes up for votes and and you know and certain expiration dates on some of this stuff I don't think we've heard the last of this particular specific oh yeah and we didn't live up the didn't answer the question why it's a blitz are not exempted from from this is if i'm reading this right is that and i'm going to quote from the document if i can find the quote itself is that the register found significant married to the opposition's concerns that this respect of the purpose glass was brought an ill defended as a wide range of devices might be considered tablets notwithstanding the signification distinctions among them in terms of the way they operate their intended purpose and the nature of the applications blah blah blah silly i just fell asleep it just happened yeah so the basic idea is that they are not allowing tablets because the tablet is a broad concept and you can consider tablets both the ipad which could be jailbreakable but also an e-book reader which you if you could jailbreak you could then infringe on copyright of its contents which in this case our books right that's running the same OS as a smartphone like this is why we have so much trouble with yes but you can Icarus is different so it's all about the intended use sure then this is different which is which is just ridiculous to me i mean it's like it's like ice I I run into a storefront and I do property damage with the mazda miata or i do it with a school bus uh I should be I should be charged the same regardless I don't know hey you know whatever you know what actually in this particular example you're probably will not know I you're probably right I don't you know what you know it's funny you know what's a key sign of me not fully grasping the concept is that I make bad analogies I think the most interesting thing about this to me like this is the most interesting part about it we still don't know how to treat tablets in a legal sense yeah you know in a literal sense I mean we there's still this kind of product that not a lot of people get millions and millions of people owned them but broadly we don't really know what they are you know it still and took a thing you Michael popular exactly to confirm what you're saying and the quote from the same document for example and quote an ebook reading device might be considered a tablet as might a handheld video game device or a laptop computer right you sorry yeah go ahead yeah so the reason for that as i'm reading the all the legal mumbo jumbo and listeners we do this so you don't have to imagine all the hours that went into researching this so you don't have to you can thank us later but the reason for the exemption now or at least place the temporary exemption for smartphones and not tablets was for for being able to move your your phone to another carrier it was carrier portability if i go out and buy an iphone for example and i want to use not to mold in a different carrier yeah i can do that and in fact i can still do that until january 2013 you will be able to do that even after that if the carrier agreed if the carrier degrees and that is also specifically outlined if you want to unlock for the purpose of portability your smart phone or any phone really to another carrier you have to do it at a carrier so the carrier shouldn't be able to refuse you on this because the intended purpose of usage is the same you you have the freedom to move your product to any a service provider in the world so I don't know you see that's not an argument don't know if I agree with because if you're a carrier I understand that it's stupid and it's really annoying when it carriers like no we won't support that device on our network because we haven't tested it and it's a total BS excuse they they don't want to spend the customer service hours necessary support you on an unsupported device that I want to train their said there's a whole lot of reasons that they do it but you know you if you own a business even if it is a massive conglomerate with a nationwide wireless network you should be able to say I don't want that on my network and you know if I want to be a crotchety old dude about it then I'm gonna be you know what I mean like that that that's you should be able to do that if you want to be if you want to be a jerk you should be yeah but it's not about it's not about the second carrier accepting the phone it's about the first carrier you're letting the phone go oh is that what you're talking about yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah can we talk about something else yeah something more exciting at least for you guys thank you wake up if you fell asleep wake up how is the really i'm gonna put I'm gonna time codes on all these no no sir but it is important i don't mean a minimal as it it's just it's just really really really dense but on exactly 17 strikes at the heart that look at this our elected officials are appointed officials don't get technology it's up to us right to be vocal and to let them know hey you guys this is just crazy and we're gonna educate we're gonna do that as part of our charter pocket now and it's not gonna be as long and boring as we've just made it well and depending on you where your interests lie this will either be just as boring or exactly not as boring i had a opportunity yesterday to talk to a guy I know what you're talking about the no yeah I'm gonna just wait in when you finish this with one sentence and I gonna let you guys don't say Tony's gonna like tenes gonna go like have himself a sandwich and come back when we're done but only East licensed to do so from the milk right exactly no I I had an opportunity to talk talk to a gentleman yesterday called Charles crim stock who is an inventor and technology advocate who makes his home in California and who asked himself the simple question one day because he hates bluetooth headsets and he said why can't I just wear a speakerphone I use the Serie in my car all the time because I have a bluetooth connection my car I would like to be able to to have that utility out and about without having to hold my phone but I hate bluetooth earpieces now ordinarily you know I think that's an interesting idea but it wouldn't have have been as interesting if he hadn't also said at the same time why don't I call it combadge and why don't I draw my inspiration for this wearable speakerphone from a from the small communicator badges worn on on Star Trek The Next Generation and that caught my attention so I wanted to know who who was behind this tiny tiny tiny speaker phone that you wear on your shirt or you wear on a lanyard so I contacted him he was gracious enough to give us to give me an interview and we talked for a good long while about about where it you know where the idea for comm badge came from and and how he's trying to raise money for it and all this kind of stuff so the article is up on the site right now I went up this morning listeners if you want to check it out you should the the product is called combadge comm badg e and Charles is trying to raise 100 grand on on IndieGoGo and we'll see if he makes it or not but I eat I know what Tony thinks about this and Joe I feel like I might know what you think about this because you are the only well besides Steven you're the only other real Star Trek fan on the on the team Oh No and Adam to e where's Adam Scott a unit has got a committee alright I'm sorry Adam I didn't mean to let me just say my one sentence and you guys don't guess can't even wait just like what what is this BS go ahead too so I was literally asking Michael this morning about this badge thing and I'm like okay I don't want everybody to listen in on my calls I prefer my standard bluetooth handset headset and Michael like was like okay did you don't get it it's the Star Trek thing and I was like ah ok I've never seen an episode so it's probably gotta be a us thing and that that's that's all my take on this so you guys not gets a little bit so okay so it for voice communication I agree it's it's that's one of the things that we all thought was cool in the late 80s Early 90s when we were watching Star Trek The Next Generation it's like oh sweet the communicator is part of their badge but every one of your calls as a speaker phone call we started thinking as as this logic start of you know sort of infested our brains it's like I would you really want to have all your calls just kind of heard out loud and yeah of course that's a that's a negative aspect to it and you're just going to annoy so many people so many more people than even the push-to-talk aficionados of about a decade ago did but um the emphasis that Charles really really points to to Siri and like digital assistants and stuff and it's less about for him it's less about conversations and more about let's use the voice features of google now and Siri and similar services and so that you don't have to take your phone out of your pocket as often and it so in that way it's kind of an I wish I'd said this in the article it's kind of like a pebble smartwatch or a SmartWatch for you know for your ears you know what I mean and instead of but it does not this Borg like Bluetooth headset you have to plug into your head I I basically I think it's a cool idea i think i think more choice and communication is cool which is why i think it's it's good and it's why i hope it takes off besides the fact that i'm a nerd Joe can you put aside any of your any of your Star Trek feelings to have a real opinion on this are you going to be like me and just kind of try and justify it no matter what because you want a badge that talks to oh I'll hold my geek back a little bit I've got three things that come to mind when I'm looking at this first of all for those of you who are thinking hey I don't want my my conversations made public by wearing this speaker phone if you're using bluetooth you're already doing it if you're using your phone in public we can hear you we know what you're saying we can hear half of the conversation already which is more this just lets us in higher the other half no big deal just won't move up move on this second observation that I have is my kids in elementary school and I believe across the street at the junior high as well I've got a junior high aged kit it's scary they all wear these things which go to the article if you're not there right now go to the article and look at it this is a nice round somewhat thick compared to the Star Trek communicator badge right but little thing we get the washer it's it's time oh yeah you'll get smaller technology's gonna bring a smaller you need it it's already my kids school they have this much larger thing that they wear on a lanyard around their neck that also incorporates their their photo ID and whatnot they're smart chip to to let them in the doors but that is a an internal communicator that they use throughout the school so instead of pushing a button and talking over the loudspeaker in the classroom you know mrs. so and so you know so and so's dad is here to pick him up they can push a button and talk immediately with the thing around the teachers neck so they can immediately get ahold of them whether they're in the classroom or on the playground or like we're vocera like VoIP communicators that that they were on that you wear on your lapel they have powered by Wi-Fi or something I've probably always wiggle battery in the back of it I know yeah yeah so good but my third observation goes to something that a friend of mine just came back from China and of course when you're in China you see all of these cool devices that aren't in the US and one of the things that they brought back was a GSM cell phone watch and it's a big hunk and watch but it's no bigger than this comm badges and it's a full cell phone inside a watch housing yeah reception is probably pretty crappy and it made our our Wall of shame at work where we have all of our old crack damaged non-functional cell phones because production quality wasn't that great and ever since all the charge yeah so it was a you know one time you cell phone watch brought back from China right where we can do that with the phone itself it doesn't have to be a Bluetooth accessory we can do it with the phone itself yeah and but you I don't you say there's a lot of trade-offs there like I mean we can do it I've seen those cell phone watches I've seen full fully self-contained phones that are the size of comm badge and it's like wow this is like a testament to why trade-offs are really sucky you know because it looks just like a product built on the shoulders of compromise but in and you know they're they're certainly compromises to to to combat as well but i like i like what it says about about our capacity to continue innovating especially in the in the framework of innovation is continuing to the point where things that we wanted you know things that we may have wanted as kids are now coming true to an extent and of course if you want to nitpick you can 0 point out all the differences and all the shortcomings of real life products compared to their fictitious counterparts but it's really nice to see that we can still we can still enjoy a fantasy becoming reality so absolutely i just see one thing as as Joe saw three things I just see one thing is this guy walking down the street and he's like I don't know tapping the button on the comcast thing and he says hey Siri do I have any messages baby you have one message from the lady and he's like read it to me baby and then it's like every word which we cannot include here because of the gleam tag inappropriate yes and the entire street and everybody who's running alongside and stuff I would knows what the wife is preparing so that's the only thing which I don't really get but yeah it's it's cool probably I'd never use it but as you guys say you would probably be amped on it and I have to congratulate this guy for for pushing this forward innovation is always welcome weather guys like me like it or not but yeah props to him and I'd and yeah here you know your objections are are definitely worthwhile and you know it's not for everyone I think as I said in the article it's definitely a niche product but I think it stands a pretty good chance of of being cooler and certainly geek more geek chic than than bluetooth headsets let's so my wrap up on this no I just got to say everybody do us all a favor and go out and buy this product if you have a bluetooth headset that you use because it'll save all of the schmucks like me who are at the grocery store and here you are talking on your bluetooth phone and i don't know that and i think you're talking to me so I'm having a conversation with you and then they turn their hand then you see because there's like you see like yeah they've actually done it some scientific studies or at least one scientific study which shows the average person is is significantly more annoyed by overhearing a phone call then they are at overhearing a conversation because when you only hear half of a conversation your brain has to work harder to try and extrapolate what is going on in the conversation yeah but if you're doing it surprises no but of course it's not your business so don't don't sit right next to me on the bus like talking about your your business you know what I mean like it's not it's not that we're sitting there You've driving us that your brain is unconsciously hearing one side of the conversation it's like you can't help but not only if you don't have headphones you're screwed don't don't be rude people I think is the thing right don't don't don't talk in public on your phone it's very annoying um combat Renault that's why texting was invented it's exactly i think i've written like something like 13 articles on that stock and that was just last week I know um let's uh let's jump into the to the news of the week we had up we had a long thought thread and oh so we're we're starting starting the podcast I'll start the podcast okay when verse we want to talk about the DMCA I was just gonna say first you guys want to talk about legalese and Star Trek somewhere um I want to I want to jump into Windows Phone first because the big news once again for two weeks in a row has been windows and Android news iOS has kind of taken a little break so we push it to the back of the run down there but first off the HTC windows phone 8x which we've been talking about for weeks in mo weeks we finally our review is up and adam wrote this and it actually went up this morning so i think all of us have just had a chance to to kind of look at it in the in the sparse asst terms but we have devices that are kind of making their way through the team we're all getting we're all getting hands-on more hands-on time with with the 8x it is an exciting exciting device i encourage you to read the to read the review on the site it is at least from a branding perspective the closest thing windows phone has to a nexus phone would you guys agree up to a certain extent yes yeah yeah it's a nexus phone that you can't play with and do cool stuff with right right well you can't because because if you do that if you do that the government is going to come after you right and the baker and the baker that's right the bread maker so I have a look at the at the 8x review this is um you know this is something that I don't think any of the three of us aside from product demo Hanson's has actually dealt with in a way I mean or any of you guys no not yet yeah none of us here are actually planning on an ordering the 8x unless haha unless something something happens it's very important for me which is I somehow become disenfranchised with the Lumia 920 and and maybe well and I'll just get this out of the way right now and maybe if this wireless charging comes to pass for the 8x that would that would be a significant win for HTC knit that's looking confirmed right now is that right Tony this is a news story from from you from I think yesterday or the day before day before whereas this was a leaked screenshot from verizon wireless's and yes from so many training document it's a train and I'm gonna just answer to this please while trying to still answer your first question even though there wasn't 1i I heard one and what am I had about one of those charges yeah 8x eno I knew you had I will still have a comment on it but it's not gonna be about the product itself so in my book the huge con for the windows phone 8x from HTC is its price point or I can rephrase it like this the huge pro of the Lumia 920 is its price point so from what we've seen from the prices made official yesterday by AT&T HTC windows phone 8x is one hundred dollars more expensive than the Lumia 920 so this is already a huge con in my book or a huge pro for the Lumia the send to get back to your real question there was a training document from Verizon Wireless it looks like the phone is all but confirmed officially to arrive on verizon's network and one of the things which were listed on this document instructing verizon personnel is that this phone allegedly supports wireless charging which you Michael will probably be super amped about absolutely me too and you too Joe so I'm ority again and it's it was one of those things which the Lumia 920 had and the HTC windows phone 8x did not have well now it sure looks like they both have it so at the end of the day choosing between them beyond the brand recognition and whether you're a fan of HTC or nokia will be whether you like the camera the build quality all right or stuff like this I want to talk I'm that price choosing between windows phones and stuff of that but first I just want to briefly drop in don't you are not in the minority Joe and I are in Hardy especially on this team because we are the only people who give it any dams about wireless charge whatsoever but I give 3 i'm sorry i'm anna i have written i think two pieces specifically on wireless charging a night i think probably jumped Tony can Tony whoa Oh somebody just somebody just died somewhere on the podcast Joe are you all right I'm here oh I don't know what happened I don't know what happened here okay um maybe somebody's listening in hey guys everybody who's in could you live we're getting bugged but we're getting bugged by all the government personnel in charge of do you know but all of yes exactly ah crap we got to talk about that at the end of the podcast so we don't trigger this event mom anyway the deal is this when you're writing for a site listeners there is a there's something called the the editorial voice and we kind of use this convention sometimes at the pocket now and sometimes we don't worry writing an editorial and you kind of use the Wii the Wii phrasing instead of I we do it in our reviews and it's because we generally do all agree in our reviews but we all have different opinions which is why we're I think a pretty good editorial team but it's always it's always a very interesting experience to read someone else's editorial that says something like here's why wireless charging sucks and to rate the phrasing is like we think that it sucks because this and I'm sitting there like well no weeks no we don't so and we've we've published many articles on the on each side of the issue but wireless charging was one of the things that the Lumia 920 kind of came out of the gate at the announcement with and Nokia was like look at this palme tried to do it and it was awesome but you know that didn't work out for them but look what we're doing it's it's also awesome and wireless charging is built into this JBL speaker dock and you can put it on this fat boy pillow if you want to be like weird with your phone I don't know what the deal is with the pella partners oh wait the department we mean like this at starbucks oh right yeah that at starbucks is like building an inductive charging into a lot of their tables here in Boston as a test market for friend a my deployment possibly so that's awesome like I love all this except I think Starbucks is using a different standard they're using a power map thing instead of the cui of the key compatible one but the point is that it was a big differentiator for the Lumia 920 and now it's kind of maybe not because this 8x has been rumored long rumored to also feature it and we don't know if this is going to be only enabled for the verizon version what's what's the deal there is it you know I I have my doubts here and I'm by no means hating on HTC HTC was I think the OEM which correct me if I wrong announced its windows phone line up before nokia am i right here no no no no you know nokia beat him to it yeah okay but the the key takeaway here is that HTC was that silent about this so-called feature when whenever they announced the phone they didn't say a word about this and now I don't want to go all paranoid on this but is there a possibility that the HTC windows phone x wasn't designed with the with inductive charging and now seeing that the Lumia 920 has it they are trying to include it just to scratch a con from their list because if that would have been there Peter Chou would probably definitely said something about that that's a really good question i mean it i guess it would depend on how long how far along they were in the in the manufacturing process right hmm I mean hey kids we know that well I think we know we kind of all assume that the big speed bump to Windows Phone 8 deployment has been software not hardware yeah but that's easy to to add to the back of the phone an induction how do you call that thing with the long its entire yeah and two and two or three cables so easy to add after production or after the initial plans have been approved catch up to the market no well no I mean cuz I think it changes I mean you're talking about a yeah it's kind of receive only but you're talking about a pretty significant change to a phone that doesn't have a removable battery back and even if it had a removable battery back you'd have to add the contacts for for charging and you know I know that is true yeah I don't think it's an insignificant change so who knows that's a good question Tony I didn't even think about that um and I wonder if somehow verizon has struck some kind of deal or some or maybe yes steel maybe you're right that the verizon version yeah yeah who knows I mean but all I know is that for me as a consumer and I think this is the important part now I have one less reason to buy the the Lumia 920 now I mean of course aside from the 100 bucks now well we can we go they talk about price but you know what here's yeah I I think there are people out there who will pay more to have a lighter slimmer phone that is also true but then again I will take this opportunity to actor everybody who was asking me why do I shove out that much amount for an iphone this is why because probably people will buy the HTC windows phone 8x even if it's more expensive than the Lumia 920 that's why people buy iphones even there if they're more expensive than the android or ipad mini's versus the nexus 7 and rent sure it's not always it's not always a question of price yeah you gotta sutro paying for so I'm gonna put on my conspiracy hat here just for a minute yeah the European Union has kind of forced us all into a micro USB standard and Apple s has friends in the European Union so they can get away with a non micro USB charging standard as long as they have an adapter but that's that's being able to quote unquote save our landfills from being filled up with all of these chargers that are proprietary for the device or whatever and now we're even seeing some phones coming without the chargers without sometimes even the USB cables inside the box because they assume you've already got one yeah I think HTC has been talking about that I don't think they've actually done that taking that step yet I hope they will never do yeah and whether they do or not that's great for the environment it might be great for the bottom line because it saves 30 cents out of every package which adds up after selling millions of devices so here's where my conspiracy comes in everybody's already got a USB charger nobody has a wireless charger um this is all to sell accessories all to inflate accessory costs oh well yeah yep but this has wireless charging get this wireless charging dock and be cool now I get 70 bucks or 170 bucks sure whatever well that's that's a you know what I don't think that's too far fetched a conspiracy theory I mean of course you can still charge this is one of those things that people who don't like wireless charging always threats or like what about how dare you I don't want to do you have to tote it doc everywhere like people like behave as if the USB port no longer exists on a device that can I charge wirelessly just just take your cable it's okay you can still take the cable with you when you travel it's only at home that you can if you want to use the convenience of a wireless charging mat from my personal standpoint I will in my day-to-day life find the wireless charging useful in one particular scenario when I bring my phone to my car and I just put it on a dashboard or somewhere where i had this induction bed and it keeps on charging and i'm not side to the cable so i can get out of the car or maybe yes illegally answer a phone while driving yes so well it yeah and you know i think the Windows Phone implementation does not call for a magnet which is a shame because you can do it in the car people did it with palm touchdowns all the time because I'll touch none would keep the phone anchored to the thing and that's what the nexus 4 is doing with its wireless charging there's also a magnet that keeps it aligned anyway I don't know i think you know i could talk about this all day but this is this is probably going to be a minor consideration for some people and tony kind of burst right at the gate there with that with that price comparison and and rightly so because this is something to get excited about the speaking the HTC 8x for example yeah yeah that this is crazy the Lumia 920 has been announced for AT&T it is for pre-order today when I get off the air I'm going to look at ways of getting one into my hand and if they're not out of stock oh I don't if they if they sold out in in before noon on the day the pre-order opened up I will we have to have another podcast right away let's talk about that um but even though that then he's just gonna go mug somebody you know that Tony yeah yeah but I don't want to say that on the budget right the feds are listening sorry yeah I got to get my hoodie on and go do that the Lumia 920 which was kind of we were thinking it was maybe going to be at the 150 price point or whatever but it's gonna sell for 99 on contract and AT&T is going to give away a wireless charging dock with it which i think is a great move on their part and they don't have to I know AT&T is not competing with anybody for the right to carry this 920 in the United States they have the exclusive launch carrier which is pretty awesome but it is obviously you can see kind of Nokia's behind the scenes work as they as they work to to fight HTC who'd you know I think before probably wasn't even on their radar and now HTC burns out the gate with this crazy competition and they're like all right fun well we're going to give away this we're going to subsidize this this accessory and we're going to price the phone we said 100 it's a 100 on stream for 99.99 so it's 99 and none of the 8x is what vs 1 99 99 it's a hundred dollar difference and the Lumia 920 is that is that for the that's for the lower two-year contract yeah this for the 16 gig one alright so these these things are on the same but that's just crazy I mean we're seeing some some pretty cool price wars break out I think I know what's going on here hey what's up you know when when the first wave of nokia windows phone capable phones came out the 800 and the 900 later on Stephen Elop said that this is the windows phone it's the signature phone you know fast forward to last month Peter Chou said that HTC windows phone 8x and 8s are the windows phone 8 they're using even the OS name in the product name and like the entire world was how could they do that Microsoft is giving up a nokia well here's what I think Microsoft gave HTC the right to use the OS name and the device name that's their support for HTC and microsoft support for lumia for nokia is a huge subsidy of bryce i think i think that's where microsoft's money is that's a good question because i was wondering as i was saying like look they're giving away the wireless charging accessory their pricing this thing really low on contract again like they did with the Lumia 900 how can nokia really afford to do this and do we have any data on I mean they have to announce this stuff in their quarterly morning earnings right if my days left it's just like here's another couple billion they will probably will but this is relating to a topic which is also on the list so I'm bringing this up Steve Ballmer you while talking about Windows Phone he said that I'm trying to find the quote but my eyes are running on this huge screen the idea is that we will see unprecedented marketing bushes and but I think a conclusion subsidies for Windows 8 Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 products something which has never been seen with any Microsoft product in the best and I think this is again where Microsoft's money is yeah well they have to they have to read that quote for you we are still relatively small but with the work we have done with Nokia HTC Samsung and others there is now an opportunity to create really a strong third participant in the smartphone market now that's very very bold words but Steve Ballmer has never been one who didn't say bulwark she's always been the chief cheerleader at Microsoft except Nebraska they've got what four percent you know bringing this up this reminds me of the initial commercial of Windows 1.8 L majdi how much do you think the Lumia 920 comes to 1 99 99 can I Nina we please remake that commercial can someone please dress up as Steve Ballmer and make that commercial for windows phone oh I'm sorry Joey yeah no you're you're you're correct date and they do have four percent market sure they are still very small and apparently a teensy had an option to either include that wireless charging dock accessory or a slap chop or a salad shooter nice yeah I make the wise choice so this is fascinating what is this for the first time for the first time we have windows phones coming to you know many carriers in the United States many many carriers worldwide and but they're there they're duking it out in a very high-profile fashion when Nokia came to ATT in the United States with the Lumia 900 I mean that was shaking the market up enough that was like wow look 18 he's really putting some dollars behind this Nokia's making a big noise Microsoft is making a big noise there's a big push but it only had itself to fight with I mean its competition was the HTC Titan to you know it was like I don't give a damn but man look now you have these colorful phones from two different manufacturers and colorful literally in addition to figuratively like like fighting with each other publicly and the companies are have so much at stake because HTC is doing poorly once again and Nokia is obviously doing poorly and they have so much at stake with these products that they're kind of taking shots at each other in the press it's a fascinating landscape and it's more interesting than Windows Phone has ever been and now finally they have the guts of these devices the processors are good enough to wear like the hardcore geeks are like all right I'll go so I can take notice of that and you know the Microsoft fans are always going to be vocal and it's just it's just awesome I mean it's I I think that and also I don't think there's any other player in the marketplace who can even get close to the idea of maybe becoming the third relevant platform right well not at this particular moment and with this amount of money which which Microsoft is willing to spend yes yeah exactly I kind of have a deja vu are we are we going into Android because I have the perfect yeah shift we okay so we are i I'm having a dish of you with this Microsoft and Nokia and Lumia 920 thing comparing with the google LG next for I've written a piece I think it was this weekend and the LG Nexus 4 is like five or six times more expensive in Europe than it is in the US and I'm afraid that's gonna that's what's going to happen with the Lumia 920 I think that Microsoft as Google is subsidizing a great amount of the products price in the US and when that product will leave the US or on other markets like in Asia or Europe the price will be five times as much as what you guys will probably pay it's I mean it's for 4999 unlocked Lumia 920 man i DNT yes so what are we talking about here it will probably get to Europe at like six hundred and fifty euros or something like that which is already three times the amount of price and to make the analogy with the nexus 4 instead of paying 199 or whatever the nexus force prices in the google play store in the u.s. in Europe it's around 600 euros which is close to eight hundred dollars which is crazy yes so I think I'm afraid this will happen at that would be a real shame and I think you're probably right considering what we heard from commenters after a podcast a couple shows ago where we were talking about iphone pricing and you know people from every country are writing in saying like the iphone would cost me 1,500 bucks the iphone would cost me you know in nine hundred dollars busted me one thousand dollars here cost you Wow yeah I mean and and I bought it from the apple store from Hungary of course it was 990 something to be specific so yeah yeah and I mean obviously we can't can't predict pricing and it is a shame when when you see so much rejoicing from from save the United States for it's like wow the nexus 4 is 350 bucks that's amazing and then it overseas it's like well no as a matter of fact it's double that so yeah i agree i hope that doesn't that doesn't really happen but we'll we'll have to see we are we are already in android so i want to i want to keep talking about android because that's you know we got an android guy in the podcast today is the lake over there Joe if Robert windows motors blue so you're still within windows it's live tile talk absolutely I want you guys to know I started out life as a wind mobile guy as we landed mmm that was me you know that's what I did you guys have a cat ringtone yeah no I've got an actual live cat that's is it USB powered it's all right guys okay the cats now in and under the bed we can move back to just because likes Android by the way so ha hide your mouse had your USB moccasin oh I just got it sorry um so no we were all yeah I know we were all we all kind of started life as Windows Mobile guys so yeah no I don't mean to I just like calling you jelly by the android guy because it's all i do i do too i just i don't want our listeners to ever think that i am anti windows phone I think we need to have that other competitor in the market place to to not just keep the other two players Android included honest but also to push the innovation iphone iOS really hasn't innovated its stagnated and it's it's made very small incremental updates but we need to have someone who's well and honest what do they have to loose they've got four percent so they're willing to do really really bold stuff because they can yeah if they don't they've only got four percent to lose right so we need them I appreciate what they're doing I still think live tiles are way too distracting but that I'm glad we have them love them this is Joe you're making a really good point it with regard to innovation and I wrote a piece about this yesterday that I I kind of like the way this piece came out it's one of my shorter ones but I still I like the way it landed because I wrote a piece called wide leaving Android for another platform is harder than ever before because I'm thinking about this right like i mean i think i'm not alone a lot of people are thinking about what's this new windows phone 8 i want to try it and also i want to use it as my daily driver and so I'm like but I've the problem is I've had an android phone for for a year and i've been using google products like extensively since 2006 so it's like that that level of integration in my in my palm is is really alluring and I use it constantly so the idea of jumping to another platform it's not an ecosystem question it's not like I've spent all this money on apps and now I have to buy him again like no I already did the math on that another article and I'll end up like Reese pending like 14 bucks I'm okay with that you know because you use free apps not because of something else no I don't know why it isn't maybe I'm just lame but uh the thing is that like it's it's scary because I'm going to lose so much stuff that i use lroff to find third-party solutions for all this stuff I use natively like google voice like Google you know like Google Drive and other like Google centric things I'm going to be switching to to your own bing maps from google maps and i use google maps all the time blah blah blah blah blah but I that's all kind of pedestrian and dull like we kind of talked about this all the time the more interesting thing to me is what google is planning to do in the future and i used google now as the example in the piece as something they're really doing that's that's really groundbreaking and some media you know it's a commenters like so basically you're gonna miss google now and that's your you know and like no and actually he's not he's one of our regular commenters i shouldn't say isn't it but you know and i'm like no read the piece again it's not about just google now it's about look at all the innovation look at all the momentum google has with with innovation as far as driving the industry forward and driving the future of search for word and searches everything and i mean it's amazing what they're doing if you read some of the interviews with with their execs and what they're planning on doing with android and i don't want to be missing out on that the microsoft is doing great things to with Windows Phone 8 but I feel like they're still in in a UI sense yes they're ahead of a lot of people but in every other a lot of other senses they're still playing catch-up or at least they're just trying to they're doing a good job of keeping pace but so I don't know i mean what do you what do you guys think about this allow me to disagree of it please until a certain up until a certain extent i know exactly where you're coming from but in in 2012 and not necessarily this year but from from let's say 2010 and up until now platforms and applications have been so good at becoming enter compatible whether you have an iOS phone or Windows Phone you will be able to setup your gmail account but with the calendar now I'm not sure about Windows Phone 8 but you will have google drive on your iOS device obviously google voice is something i have never used because it's not available around here and it's not available in many countries outside of the US this except if it's the u.s. only thing so what I'm saying is that they are all offering some some sort of interoperability things you can set up most of your your applications or services you are using on a daily basis on other things too but then again the downside is of course every company wants to push their own products and services I just read a piece that the famed Windows Live Messenger will die and it will be replaced by Skype yeah so Microsoft is pushing windows live mail as hotmail or outlook.com now they're pushing office they're pushing skype Google's doing the exact same thing with its own products and Apple is doing this the exact same thing with its own offerings the good thing about 2012 is that you can use it if not all of the products but most of the products on other platforms to of course Google Maps is no longer available on iOS and it's not available on Windows Phone but you go to the mobile website and you have the exact same experience so you don't you don't have the exact same experience if you go to the website and the browser come on yeah you now have Street View man I guess you've more features but it functionally as well it's not the same well then again let me rephrase it depends on what you're using google maps for sure sure so my key takeaway here is that the line is becoming very thin between this war of offerings between the companies i think i think you're right time' in one respect i agree with you i think the companies are a somewhat equal in offering maybe a like number of things like microsoft has its google equivalents that it's offering it has enough google equivalents for every google product it has something to answer it with but a lot of those are just for me it's like wow Microsoft is really focusing on skype well I know a lot more people on google talk than I know on skype you know Microsoft is saying yeah look at look at one note and I'm like well I use Evernote and thankfully ever notice on Windows honey you know Microsoft is like look at the office suite I swear if if I have to hear about the Microsoft Office suite one more time because i hate office I've always hated office it's it's you know it it's like advertising like based on based on having an awesome office suite integration if you're talking about a consumer product is for me like saying like come to our ice cream stand because the paint job on the ice cream stand is really awesome instead of saying come to our ice cream stand because the ice cream is great you know it's like it's like Milton from the office talking about his red swingline stapler it's a stapler right exactly yeah yeah and and so we can we can get into that a lot i get i get the point tony and i think that a lot of commenters have rightly said no but there are equivalents on on the Windows platform there are equivalents on iOS you just have to know what you're getting into and you have to be willing to make that sacrifice and say yeah I got to use some third party stuff because Google and Microsoft I want to play nice on some stuff and you know whatever we that these are the sacrifices we make when we jump platforms it's just interesting to see how much harder it is to leave android now than it was even a year ago and it's our luck or our curse that we have to use them all at the same time because of our jobs exactly yes ok so so a couple observations from the android guy first of all i think i said it was the office i know its office space don't ring me about that please I just been spoken haha yeah and it definitely was his stapler don't mm-hmm swingline so lame Microsoft has always been and I'm a Microsoft developer I code all day long in Microsoft technologies Microsoft has always been a king of integration whether that's active directory exchange Word Excel SharePoint sequel all of their stuff integrates together and works really well even when one solution might not be the technologically superior solution chances are you're still going to go with it because it's so tightly integrated with everything else windows mobile had that Windows Phone doesn't or at least it didn't in its first iteration they scrapped everything started from the ground up this is not the next version of windows mobile this was Windows Phone one point 0 starting from the ground and moving up Microsoft is still really good at integration Google not quite as good they're not quite as tightly coupled with everything they're getting there but you can now very very easily and my experience with with windows 8 which I'm running on my desktop computer right now love it or hate it one of the things that it asked for was all of my other accounts kind of like an Android install does you know if you've got a facebook account of Twitter account hey if you've got a gmail account it asked for that my windows 8 now just automatically gets my gmail it gets my google calendar it's integrated my google contacts it just did it it pulled that in mmm if windows phone is not doing that now we're not doing that to your satisfaction now they will soon it will be seamless it won't matter so the two halves of the discussion and honestly when I read your article I wondered where you were going with it Michael I thought this was going to be more about and I hope I'm not alone in it that your article is going to be more about your data portability I've got all my contacts I've got all my emails i got my calendar over in google i don't want to abandon all that and put it all in again on windows now I don't think that's gonna be an issue cuz it's not an insurance affordable no that's why I didn't talk about it was it's not an issue Yeah right and that's that's kind of what confused me no you know all of these other apps and whatnot yeah Microsoft you just wait there they're gonna do it they're gonna do it right and and hopefully they'll do it when they're still relevant yes I'm is the only thing that's the only question exactly yeah I you know it needs these it's it's a big question and it's one of the I think Tony as you touched on it it's one of these sacrifices that we kind of have to be willing to to endure by virtue of having a world where we have multiple platforms to choose from yeah these platforms would not all be be separate and being important if they were all the same if we had three version three separate slightly different flavors of Android out there it wouldn't be as much fun so you have to be able to kind of deal with these these difficulties when you hop between platforms and I'm happy to do it it's it's it is after all fun to learn an entire that to relearn an entirely new world as particular read it I beg your pardon in three days exactly you Dave and I think the the the difference is not that huge between platforms on mobile devices than it is on personal computers I mean the difference at least to me between a windows pc and a mac is much more big than this between Android iOS and Windows Phone maybe it's just me I don't know no you know I think you make a good point i think a big part of that is is that the interface technology is so similar across devices in the in the mobile world like if you think about it just from a hardware perspective all these have capacitive touchscreens and from a software perspective you flick swipe and tap like we understand that these methods of input right but on a computer like yeah you have a mouse pointer and you have a mouse but the software's is laid out completely differently and right clicks do different things and yeah you know I guess that that's analogous on the mobile side to we have long presses do some things and you have gestures go ahead whatever I don't know you know i'm not sure every platform has its learning curve the good the really good platforms have a short learning curve yeah yeah well that's true i remember regardless of if it's mobile or absolutely exactly it should epson should just be intuitive and this is what should just work this seems really like the theme of the podcast were to kind of keep keep progressing into the windows phone 8 in the windows 8 block but that's why I'm a little concerned very fillet about Windows 8 not because it's not going to take off as it is is going to catch on like wildfire but all these gestures on Windows 8 tablets where you like draw in from the left to multitask you drawn from the right for the charm bar you like swipe down from the top to close applications I feel like people are going to use windows 8 and they're not going to not buy windows 8 but they're going to spend six months using Windows 8 and then somebody's going to like pull out the charm bar for them like on their tablet they're like what's that you know because that's what happened with with webos like people used to have their pre next to me and they'd be like trying to close an app or whatever and they'd be like yeah it's stupid like I can't close apps on this thing I'm like you just flick the card off the top of the screen and they're like they're like mind is blown or when somebody did it for instance just by a mistake where did that yo exactly exactly because like when you have a user interface that has elements that are hidden like that it's very hard to get people to learn them right off the off the bat because I don't know about you guys but the first thing I do is skip tutorials like tries to teach me how to use it I'm like no I got it I can figure it out I think you see with their tips overlay oh yeah and exactly the overlay layer on HTC devices and Samsung oh my god I mean it's a it's a good idea if you watch the tutorials and I always give them high marks for trying to teach customers but man every time I get a new girl really it's like these are your 75th and 127 stab let's imagine you're a first-time smartphone you exactly and that's why I give them that's why I say I've given problem like yeah you know you should put it out of it man if I have to drink bring down that notification shade on a new device one more time and have samsung say like this is where notifications go I know you guys remember Clippy from oh yeah but i love the einstein wait what it looks like you're trying to close a nap it looks like you're trying to get your notifications just shut up that's what I'm trying to the boat the bonus with Samsung devices is that like half of it is those kind of novelty features that Samsung half does right and half of them are just total crap so it's like hey if you can double tap the device if you want to go to the top of a list and it's like okay I'll enable that feature and then for the rest of the devices life you're like whacking the thing on the top of it is like wow this isn't working all thanks thanks a lot but and is it Samsung that writes all those tips and some like handwriting font so it looks like that's the acc 0 is that uh yeah hey come on guys it looks like you just scribbled this thing together five minutes before you push the device out the door you want to be friendly they want to transmit that that personal feeling to you that it's not a machine with the Roboto font it's a person that transmits you the information that's right rotate you how to do stuff it wrote it by hand in comics and comic sense speaking of HTC there is a there's a new device on the horizon for for Verizon customers in the US which we know is which we think is the same device as the butterfly J this is called it's called this is a vinyl name I was going to say the amazing name changing HTC android phone because this thing has been what the rumored as the dicks the DI X the DLX the butterfly J of course is its name in Japan and now we're seeing it as the droid DNA on verizon which i don't know if you guys like i understand i understood dicks like droid incredible acts cool i understand DLX if you want to go deluxe butterfly j is weird but it's japan so okay but like droid DNA i'm really looking forward to the marketing copy that we are just going to be hit in the face with to justify this weirdo named like it's in your genes it's so amazing that it's in the cellular structure of your body you know I know gives you exactly right yeah it knows you because it is you droid DNA you know I'm not looking forward to being hit over the head with that i would but i am looking forward to attending the launch event because that's happening next week and i'll be going to cover it and i'm i'm actually really excited because this is let us know if that image that we've got posted on our website is it's true are we really gonna get a phone that has a honeycomb wallpaper on uh what is it is it up on the site right now yes it was it posted yesterday did I miss it or is it like brand new honeycomb wallpaper this is hella subhasis even less are go HTC and Verizon schedule press event droid DNA launch has a new render at the bottom and yeah it's been updated the post has been updated Oh with the new vault wallpaper and Little League of a new breast render yes so here's this press render end it's got a red colored well because it's a droid brand obviously it's gonna have red stuff on it but it's the honeycomb hexagons yes Jody remember when we saw the first leaks of the nexus 4 and it had basically a screen or the notification tray of a cyanogenmod rom so this might be something similar this might be just the nut not the final render or they might just go with this super cool red honey come I think that's probably probably final wallpaper i mean it is cool-looking i have to say it is it brings back but everyone hates honeycomb me that they hated the hate it I know but people know why annoyed we're gonna look at this and go honeycomb I don't want that and they're gonna move on to another device right but it's not it's not like a Nexus device right like it's not like it's not for the geeks it's for the people who I got it guys for total morons why how I mean it's called DNA and if you take some looks of the DNA you know those spirals and stuff like the DNA helix yeah yeah and that probably tries to emulate that i don't know i don't think if they wanted to do a helix they would do a helix and not a bunch of hexagons you know I don't Navy I'm a moron we didn't want to have to break it to ya yeah realization of the day you know I I don't want to I don't want to find excuses don't blame me gay okay so the take home from this is right please if you're a carrier or if you're a manufacturer and and you before you release any of this stuff we're really really good with NDA's bring us in just hire us for a few hours show us the cool stuff we'll let you know what sucks what kind of what doesn't so that you can make a better product so without even looking at it even mention I mean I didn't even mention that this divide the highlight feature of this device which if you need a reminder like I did just now it has a 1080p display or it probably will if it's the same device so that's you know alternately cool and not cool there's been some spirited discussion in the comments on pieces that we write like the one I wrote about 1080p screens are useless on smartphones because they're so small and then some people come back and they say yeah it's not just about pixel density a 1080p display really does look better in various different ways that are measurable and all this kind of stuff so I'm very excited to lay eyes on it and i'll be giving you my impressions when i do in new york city of next week and i'm very excited so I don't want listeners to come away with this idea that we just hate the fact that they've changed the name five times and this is a dumb device like i love i think all of us to a person really like HTC at pocket now like we talked about on the podcast pretty often and i like to see new products from them so this will be will be fun just a short disclaimer and we're 99.999% sure that this is going to be the droid DNA but there's no hint on the invitation itself so it might just be a point one percent that we're wrong on this and is gonna be a totally different device in epi hilarious university android 4.2 for every verizon ring ever early or they could probably no one actually sending those phony text which was a rumor to come to verizon the leaked documents and stuff like that oh yeah and and leaked images of the screen so it could go three ways four ways yeah you know that but it so the invite says we invite you to experience our latest collaboration single Single tense collaboration so I feel like could be the droid DNA could be the windows phone 8x yeah because it's singular probably not both right and I don't think it's the windows phone when it doesn't look like the amazingness it are a collaboration with multiple devices yeah that would be honored I would love that anyway um moving on we've given that thing enough time the the final kind of two things in Android here are smaller elements and Joe I want to ask him about this this his piece in a second but just real quick lenovo has announced this kind of Android device or it's leaked or something that's happened that that has a massive battery in it this is a 3500 milliamp hour battery the razor acts from motorola the kind of previous crown holder for high-capacity battery at tops out at 3,300 this is a 3,500 milliamp hour battery in a lenovo phone called the p770 if you want to look it up that's awesome I want to see and I want to write a piece on this I want to see a battery a milliamp hour race I'm not interested in higher resolution displays because I don't hold my phone two inches from my eyeballs all the time I don't care I want my phone to last all day and to see manufacturers besides motorola who are crazy in in some of the best ways ever say we're gonna throw this massive battery in our phone especially when it's this kind of random brand like Lenovo that's awesome what do you guys think about this I welcome the idea I love the idea but I just think on a conspiracy level again that it's not in the manufacturers interest to deliver you a high-capacity battery because if you have a small capacity battery you wear without relatively quick if it's a one-day charge or half a day charge you'll have to charge it more than you charge the 35 million power battery so more charges means that that battery will probably die relatively quickly and with no means to change the batteries and phones nowadays they're all going with non removable batteries you probably have to buy a new phone so I'd love to see at least a phone which will get me through one and a half days without me needing to turn it off completely overnight but I just don't think that we're only limited by battery technology yeah well from a from a broader like Sam point though you're looking at it's like if you're a manufacturer that kind of doesn't ship a lot of phones that sell a lot like like Lenovo it was a you know very big prominent company in computers and less so and smartphones like you're like well how can we differentiate how can we sell more units let's look a big you know headline-grabbing battery and let's say use it all day and then the next you know whatever mm-hmm I don't know absolutely I just want to say thank you Tony for being the conspiracy guy on this one and giving me a break that's awesome so I just reviewed the the droid razr HD the non max version yes which only has correct me from around here guys I think there's 27 30 milliamp hour here somewhere with that you realize that i did but it's an honor just battery i couldn't look at the battery i couldn't even get the back cover off i I couldn't even get the the little door open to put an SD card in it but I digress uh that phone that phone with an S 4 plus processor in it ran over 20 hours with with my I would call it significantly heavier than average user use it was average for me but that is not the max this is the reg this is not the max this is just the regular one that's awesome in fact that's what I concluded in the article is you don't need to spend the money on the max unless you are a die-hard road warrior who needs to have all that extra time 20-plus hours and it was still going I mean I was in the yellow but I wasn't in the red yet and i was at twenty point four hours and it's still nice it was amazing watching your video Joe and I was I took a moment to be like to be to enjoy watching another Jolie vibe review which I hadn't watched in a long time I was like God you are a soothing guy to watch on your reviews it is great like a lot of you know it's like some of us were like I'm like so yours I'm gonna tell you about something else and you know we've all gotta run like styles and Joe's like I'm gonna tell you about this phone and you're gonna like it it comes with the rich Corinthian leather which by the way we need I wanna fight it's a current my father yeah I'm one of those bamboo fun go ahead jobs so yeah big batteries are awesome if you've got a bump on the back of your phone and it looks goofy already fill up that bump with throwing in extra milliamp hours to what tony was saying yeah batteries are not necessarily rated as far as longevity and you know it's going to last a year it's going to last two years it's rated in how many charge-discharge cycles you have and the smaller battery you have the more of those cycles you're going to have the faster you're going to use it up until it just doesn't hold a charge for more than a couple hours at a time or you have to leave it plugged in all the time and in that case you don't have a smartphone or a tablet and have enough you've got a desktop yeah you're tethered congratulations now another observation is one of the first things that I had the chance to review one of the first accessories that I had a chance to review when I was working on the the Galaxy Nexus stuff and then we all hit that all at the same time was the extended battery and I you know I said I don't really need it the the 1700 stock battery or whatever it is is just fine it gets me through the majority of the day and that's just about it and I don't care no way dude I have since turned 180 and I'm running my I think it's a 2200 milliamp hour battery in my phone I get a full day out of it but that's it around eight nine hours tops and if I'm turning on my hotspot forget about that oh yes have earned it through a whole battery in with a hot spot yesterday yeah so bigger I Samsung did that I'm sure just so that they could sell an accessory they could sell an extra skew and and you know all the phones in my house all that galaxy nexi in my house and yes I have four of them now all but one of them have the extended battery yeah this one coming with a full battery and I don't know this battery in this screengrab looks like it could be removable yeah it does have that doesn't it it's got the plus and minus sign on it i don't see tape holding it down anywhere like you do on the non removable ones right so i'm wondering if this isn't an extended battery for it which would make sense you know sell an accessory upgrade to it but even still that's fabulous before I go way too long winded which was about five minutes ago uh yeah we're going to move on coming out that the s4 series particularly those guys are sipping at the power like nothing I've ever seen so just looking at the battery capacity itself you got to remember that's part of the story the other part is what's powering it because like we saw with that that razr HD even with the plus processor not the probe process but the plus it's doing phenomenally well with a decent sized battery with that new advanced processor that's the yeah and that's when you brought it the new Galaxy Nexus I was like yeah I had the 2100 milliamp hour battery in there or whatever it was and it's it's it wasn't a question of of really of the battery itself it was a question of the design of the phone and how poorly the LTE version managed its battery life and yeah there's so many variables that go into that we have to we have to jump in iOS because as usual were over time as I was saying to Tony before we started recording over time for us is the new on time so we can't I always had another light week in the wake of a lot of big news in iOS and I would kind of in the low but Apple has reported sales of 3 million iPad minis no no no that million iPads and rolled over wait three men a peds shipped or what those it's it's 3 million iPads so over the weekend including minis and ipad 4 and that ends the three presumably right no only the new ones only a new one only the new ones god you think they just pick and choose what I mean not Apple like manufacturers just pick and choose what they want to report so okay so that was three million iPads iPads this weekend which was what the weekend of the 4th and 5th or whatever yeah uh is that good or bad cuz they're not they're not breaking it down into ipad mini figures like a lot of people have made a big news deal out of that that they haven't announced specific figures for the mini it could be it could go both ways and i am right now looking or searching can you just fill in 20 seconds while I search for something oh yeah we could fill time like champs episode of Trek when they were doing that thing and they shot those things oh yeah and then they bounced back and hit him in the face yeah it always happens yeah so so let me have something uh I've got a day job a lot of you already know that our CIO came up to me last night and he now has an ipad mini oh he's like wow you know this I didn't think I'd like it because it was so small but wow this is just awesome and he's doing this as he's picking up my nexus 7 from my desk and looking at it and running his hands over it and I don't know if he thought that I also had an iPad Mini or if he was thinking and this is just an awesome form factor and I I let him into it saying yeah that that's 7 inch that 7 inch size is just ideal it's it's not too big that you can't easily carry it around with you like some of the 10 inches are it's not real heavy and it's small enough that you can read it and use it small enough that you will have it with you to be able to and he was just all for that in fact he made the comment or read with a comment that the big size the the big iPad or even the 10-inch tablets yeah it's like The Reader's Digest large print edition yeah oh yeah no it's entirely true i mean we have this love for this continuous love fest for the 7 inch and 8 inch form factor around here and it's entirely justified i'm glad that like you didn't go to hear testimony from a real life person outside of that tell you because you found your your piece of information i was looking for for how many ipad 3 units did Apple sell this March when they introduced it and I could only found the only press release which was around two weeks after the ipad 3 became available so it took two weeks for the ipad 3 alone to sell three million units now it took three days for the ipad mini and the ipad 4 to reach that number now we have a couple of hints in the press release the new ipad with retina display that's the name so the ipad for demand for the ipad 4 was higher than the man for the ipad 3 but we don't know exact numbers as far as i'm concerned i would tend to believe that out of these three million ipads I would believe that summer around seventy sixty five seventy percent were iPad minis and the rest were ipad 4's and here are my reasons if you remember pre-orders the iPad minis were the first ones to sell out in the pre-order period when these tablets became available at brick-and-mortar stores we got stories of the ipad mini selling out now of course it could I could play devil's advocate and say the ipad mini stock was lower than the ipad for stock but they designed for him either mmm they had the headlines in some regions they didn't have in other regions and here's what i'm saying is that if you have an ipad 3 i personally don't see a reason to upgrade to the ipad 4 or if you have an ipad 3 i don't see the reason to upgrade / downgrade to the ipad mini but if you have an ipad to you probably probably want to buy the ipad 4 or the ipad mini so what I would have liked is to see a breakdown of how many iPad minis not necessarily because because I want those numbers personally but because the Phil Schiller was so enthused about comparing the mini and the nexus 7 on stage and we know that it took six months for google okay five months for google and suz to sell three million Nexus 7's I would just would have wanted to know how many did Apple manage to sell in three days if it's 1,000,000 then they're that much better if it's two million even better if it's 50,000 that's both right and well and you said it best Tony they don't want you to know those specific numbers because of the lay of the land you're gonna get a lot of people who aren't going to upgrade to it because it's not really enough grade it's a downgrade and not just in size but also you know not having a Retina display and in yada yada yada so you're gonna start seeing those types of numbers reported and I think there'll be impressive numbers with the ipad mini 2 which i'm gonna go on the record here and if i'm wrong Michael will eat my hat that this is it will have a Retina display and it will most likely have an a6 processor in it it will be in and ipad 4 mini right and that's what everyone will be interested in i will i will also disagree and i'll say that there will only be a Retina display if Apple will be bold enough to introduce a new resolution the ipad 3 and ipad 4's resolution in 7.9 inches I think we will never see so we will probably see retina if they introduce another intermediate resolution which I don't see Apple doing at the moment and if I'm wrong Michael will eat my hat hi I'm nom you know I got it I got so many hats in the buffer it we will see what they do it with screen resolution I agree that that is a concern that that Apple has until now well apple continues to do to kind of sidestep really well this issue of like are we going to alienate developers with a new screen resolution because you know when they did with retina they just doubled everything and with the ipad mini they're like yeah remember that old resolution we're at now it's set a smaller screen size and so just keep still still that resolution is still the standard for the app store because there are still the majority of iPads there are iPad ones and twos so those who have ipad threes are less than those who have ipad ones and twos and this mini is basically using the same resolution as the ipad 1 and ipad 2 so developers are not affected in any case right well that's what I'm so and that's that's why why Apple is really really good at dealing with this thing because they're like either either you have the double resolution or you have the single resolution that you can recode for whatever and blah blah blah so I agree Tony I don't think that they would be terribly likely to launch a third screen resolution but then again we have an entire year presumably before the ipad mini sequel launches show and anything going to happen between now and then including you know iOS gaining even more traction and an apple saying sorry to do this to developers but you're going to make a lot more money here's a third screen resolution they're there already is a third resolution we have the tall resolution now a what for that so my question yeah for the iphone 5 so my question is could we see in the future an ipad mini that is a little bit narrower and a lot taller and would that be a red nose but i canno it looks like that no they they went with that with the phone but they will never do that with the tablet because tablets as far as they are concerned our content consumption devices and thus far as Apple is concerned they think that the only or the perfect aspect ratio for content consumption is 4 by 3 same time same time I agree Tony and and for me I I kind of like that too but Apple was also once the company that said we're not going to do a 7-inch tablet you know not they didn't they did an 8-inch don't know whatever you know what I mean I had someone else sees that well i'm thinking can't if we're talking content consumption what content are we talking about are we talking about books are we talking about websites are we talking about everything in general so except for a video for by face is the best except for video exactly now so if video expands and we see even more offerings like we're seeing with Hulu Plus getting more stuff Netflix getting the no more stuff but not losing as much it we're getting all of this widescreen video content I've already got this nice wide screen android tablet and what is Apple half well that you can watch it wide screen on your iphone 5 but not on a bigger screen yes Joe but it's only one out of the four so we have the web we have books we have pictures and we have videos so except for videos books and web and pictures are better off on the 4 by 3 inch screen so I think they they won't change the entire perception just because videos by themselves well we don't know what do it you know I will have to we'll have to see i think it's gonna be fun to talk about it's gonna be fun to talk about iOS as if we start especially as we start to hear what what sir Jony ive is going to do yeah I what quit kind of mark he's gonna leave on the software side of things in the wake of forced also until then let's let's let's move on because we have very little to speculate on and even though we could speculate all day we have to wrap it up so and it's it's so much fun to speculate it really is but let's weave we have two relevant pieces of listener mail this week and as always we thank our listeners for sending them in and I this what the first one is from someone who says I don't mind if you get my name wrong because i live in serbia so it doesn't matter that is verbatim thank you well I'm going to try my bestest is from sieben said lon that's correct yeah that is correct except except for the fact if his from Serbia if he missed some diacritics but if his name is written like this then he's sitting said Lance even said lon okay well good i got one right for once maybe he says hi i love the podcast it makes an early trip to school very fun thank you that's that's great to hear a couple episodes back Brandon talked about how we could change the screen texture on a smartphone so that when you use the stylus it feels like pen on paper recently I read about a company called tactile which is promising a drastic change in screen technology they believe that when you're typing on a soft keyboard the glass could change so that buttons appear on it when you're done typing the buttons just disappear and he says that's pretty much possible today's technology you can find the commercial on on youtube so this we've we've talked about this before and we spent so much time on the air talking about it that we shouldn't talk about it too much right now but you are absolutely correct sipping like we we've seen technology demoed from companies that essentially changes like it places a it changes the voltage of the current that's that the screen is running on so it increases resistance when you touch it based on how much voltage they're running through there which is really really cool I mean like you know you can be running your finger along the thing and then they amp up this you know the amp up the charge and all of a sudden your fingers like sticking to the screen which is awesome and you guys remember we were waiting for the iphone 5 and we got the iphone 4s and one of the features rumored for then the iphone 5 was this thing yeah yeah that would have been so it is Oh would have been great I mean it is it's a really cool idea and it's something I think we will see because I still hear this today guys I just heard it the other day from someone who would switched from his blackberry to an iphone and he was like yeah I love it I love everything about it I can't really get used to the keyboard still and it had been a couple weeks and of course he'll get used to the keyboard at some point but it is going to be inferior for a lot of people regardless of how long they're given to get used to a soft touch keyboard there's something about that tactile response and you know it touch screens will find a way to replicate this and the it'll become widespread once it becomes useful what in a broad sense and I'm looking forward to it because it's going to be the next cool thing I can't wait to review a production version of something like tactile they also even pre-production yeah absolutely ends on that yeah oh man I'm but there's something to be said for that tactile feedback my first and right well windows mobile days all of my windows mobile phones save one had a slide out keyboard I even had the AT&T tilt yeah till to running it on tmobile which apparently is illegal now hunter after January but it had a keyboard when I switched to android my g1 had a keyboard then I went with a nexus one and no keyboard but my next phone after that I went back to a keyboard the g2 it since then I've I've just moved on because devices you have boards because there's going to spec with yeah the ones without people and I live with it but that tactile feedback we're tactile pretty that's why we have fingers that's why we can feel stuff satisfying in a way that either touchscreen is not a still breakout don't make fun of me I still break out the veer every so often and it yet as the tiniest keyboard ever but that key response is so cliquey and it's so it's just so satisfying in a way that a touchscreen can't be sipping also by the way it just by way of note I just got the jelly bean update for my galaxy s3 and I was wondering if you could ask Anton if he's still waiting for you no I got it actually two weeks ago turns out that my galaxy s3 was a UK unit so i got at the moment they started rolling out the UK jelly bean update or congratulations Tony I ain't waiting for my jelly bean update if the rumors are true use and waiting on 2 2013 I know and you know what I'm done waiting I'm hi mum I'm just done Joe are you running a jelly bean on your device over there of course you are one of your for Galaxy Nexus is all the next CD running jellybean the the nexus 7 of course is running jellybean i think the the motorola xoom is running eat early but he's not waiting for 4.2 yeah yeah yeah waiting waiting 7 thank you for the for the for the for the letter he says it's always keep up the good work and I'm a nice day assuming you have a good day too I'm sorry if I did end up butchering your name thank you for the for the letter and finally one from William who says I've been using my iPad once my iPad one excuse me since the launch I've been using it as a computer with I work I only use it like that because I cannot afford a laptop and now I have budget for laptop about the price of a macbook air I'm wondering if that is a smart decision to carry on buying tablets as a laptop replacement all I do is surfing the web using apps playing simple games and doing some homework but now with the ipad mini coming i'm wondering if the ipad mini is going to suit my needs better than the ipad since it has a lower powered processor or i guess as well as the ipad image so what in your opinion is the best suiting product as a three categories for my needs thank you by the way I love your podcasts Thank You William guys this is an interesting question to me because I was in a Starbucks yesterday writing an article and an old woman was kind of walking around you know in a friendly manner hassling people about what computers that were using because she was in the market for a computer and the girl behind me was using an iPad with a keyboard dock and the woman's like now what is that and you know the girl was like well it's an iPad or the keyboard and this is what oh well I could do that I could buy a tablet instead and save some money and have a keyboard attachment and I feel like this is the question of 2012 it's it's it's going to be the question of 2013 it was sort of the question of 2011 do I need to buy a laptop or should I buy a tablet and try and make that my primary device for William specifically for a user who specifically all i do is surfing the web using apps playing simple games and doing some homework I don't see why a computer is necessary to you for those of us who don't know what is I work I work as Apple's suit of so-called office applications so we're not talking remote desktop type no no it just is word processing spreadsheets and presentations yeah in tablet form so I mean it on the top yeah I'm the tablet right so I mean okay for William seems to be the prototypical case of a customer who doesn't need a computer who can actually who's one of these millions of people who are buying tablets in lieu of buying a laptop or a notebook or a net but you know an ultrabook or a netbook so I yeah I mean William just from from my perspective it sounds like you are the perfect case to buy a tablet and I think you should stick with the full size because I think as we just discussed with the ipad mini the second iteration of the mini is going to be better and even though it's less portable the bigger version will probably serve you better particularly if you're using a keyboard dock with it but it what is go ahead let me clear up the his second way I agree if that's all you do then it's not necessary for you to buy a macbook gear or any other laptop for that reason now since i work as Pages Numbers and Keynote as I said there's not a huge difference in doing this particular things which you are doing between the full-sized ipad and the ipad mini yes the ipad mini has a slower processor it's still faster than the ipad one you are using so it's yeah it's the ipad one it's the ipad mini and then it's the ipad 3d ip3 is the fastest among all but just for a comparison sake the ipad one has the same resolution as the ipad mini but the ipad mini has a faster processor so it will drive those applications faster it will be slower than the ipad 3 of course but for word processing homeworks slight games and web browsing you're better off with an ipad mini if if portability is your thing if you don't care about the full size that will go with the the ipad 2 or 3 or 4 make sure your eyes are good yeah now as far as accessories for keyboards and whatnot are there have we seen any keyboard accessories for the ipad mini yet or we look in it you can use any apple bluetooth keyboard to connect to your tablet right but if sure absolutely but yeah you want to go with like a case like the logitech that is a hard back case / keyboard no we don't have any of those for the million we have some ducks but we don't have that form well we've got yen this is something brand-new from yesterday from this company called pad X or PA da CS seems to have a robot a mini case that includes a keyboard for the end of battery for the ipad mini but this is brand-new like this the stories from yesterday that i'm looking at so i don't know if it's if there's a pre production version looking at i think there is no question that many of these are coming and you'll have a lot of options so you know i don't know we'll see how that goes but it's a good question i look forward to seeing more and more tablets with keyboard docks out in public and as people kind of make this decision because it's cool to save money and it's cool to save money and also get something that maybe you didn't expect to work as a full-time replacement it's not for everyone I would as much as I love tablets and mobiles I would just die if I didn't have an actual computer to you yeah because you you know you do videos and photo editing and video editing and stuff like that even just for even just for browsing sometimes I just want to be like okay I'm tired of moving my hand around so much I just want to have the I want to maintain the keyboard and mouse you know touchpad paradigm for sometimes it's just more comfortable so I get it you know it's whatever its lilium let us know what your decision is what you have purchased yeah yeah yeah and keep in mind that this is exactly what Microsoft is trying to figure out with their surface their windows 8 and windows RT yeah all of that is is it a desktop computer or is it a tablet and os limitations of both and what they're trying to do so make sure you you at least look at those articles as we continue to write them on pocket now because yeah we don't know the industry doesn't know exactly how to do it yet you're asking a question that the biggest minds in the industry are still trying to figure out how to get it right so I'm with the opinion of these guys what it sounds like you're doing right now keep doing what you're doing a tablets going to be better for battery life and portability and you've already proven it works for you so don't mess with what works and wrapping this up because I know we're gonna wrap this up I have got to get to add I'm gonna give you guys some homework if we call the phablet's phablets because there are between the smartphones and the tablets how should we call the surface which is between the laptop and the tablet potatoes tap top I borrowed compute tab comput ave sounds like a sweet 1980s sci-fi gadget yes or something that old Steve Ballmer would have announced no it's computer with reversi hey Michael KITT can we find that video just that that advertisement for what was it windows one point of the one oh yeah I have embedded it vertical I have embedded it in the Windows Phone ad with Steve Ballmer oh we've got to put that in there if you haven't seen this commercial it's hilarious I'll throw it in the podcast post tell me if it's alright with you and sure yeah I've listeners if you haven't seen this commercial please do watch it but we have to wrap it up cuz we're so far over time that it's that it's just ridiculous gentlemen anything anything further no it will be a time waster and we already have our comments on the length of our podcast do it so done good job but its its quality it is all quality wheat we hopes and for the sake of all of those who think it's too long jump around that's all I say about that yeah and this is this is an exception this is both quantity and quality yes absolutely and modesty and a lot about modesty to a full extent and hats it had some hats on the buffer that's what the show is gonna be called from now on uh guys that wraps it up for episode of the pocket net weekly feel free to tweet at us most of us are pretty active on the Twittersphere even though Joe Levi has been delinquent in his in his live tweeting of the podcast recently I guess like I realize is getting run away what's that one no I only miss whoa all right you know uh well if I remember all right Tony over there is a tan Tandy Naja a nton dnag why Joe is at Joe Levi jo e le VI and you can find me at captain two phones captain the number two phones follow pocket house official Twitter account at pocket now tweets follow us on facebook and google+ leave us a review on iTunes are soon if you like the podcast and if you have a topic question or suggestion for the podcast or you just want to say hi email us at podcast at pocketnow.com thank you for listening we'll see you next week so have a great day