Gadgetory

hello and welcome to control-alt-delete a podcast is now over but that's in front of a live audience hi I'm Eli Patel on the editor-in-chief of The Verge I'm joined as always by my friend Virge executive editor recode editor at large the Walter keishon himself Walter s Mossberg all right well I don't think we have any other business to attend to let's just get started so this is the last control-alt-delete it's our 76th one and you know I've been waiting haven't said much about this but I have to bring this up tonight of a huge Greek grievance and the grievances my whole life that we have we have to see the name of a certain Virg employee in every episode of podcast I'm only going to say it I'm retiring I don't care I'm going to say it one more time dieter bone cannot can I say this before we came on that's my song when I think of theater I think of the song that plays over a drone shot of Spring Break with someone just yelling turn it up because that's what deters like everyday body shots every morning before work all right let's do this podcast we've had enough famous billionaires telling Wall fell great here so well on the last show yeah we talked big big idea they got your computing soaring pronouncements the industry could you finally gave me enough time to read I'll give you three weeks man but since then there's been the code conference it was your last code conference you founded the code conference in D you had a bunch of people on stage talking to you Andy Rubin talking about his new phone ambient OS right well named after that Congress and initiative and then we at WWC and both of you were there I think it's go for both of you were there and we saw a bunch of apples vision for what's coming next right so I want to not do too deep in the weeds and the actual news that I'm pretty sure everybody here saw it but I want to talk about those things in the context of bigger stuff right so your WABC tell me what you suck uh well this year I think Apple was intent on sending several they're always intent on sending messages yeah I think they were super strong I think Peter would agree with this on sending a handful of particular messages one was reassuring all the Mac users particularly the Pro users that although they had kind of maybe screwed up a little on the MacBook Pro and I'm not you know revising their certaPro yeah for years a lot a lot that they were SD card reader that they were doing it don't you taught at the headphone jack so has one better and so so they announced you know an iMac Pro but this was a keynote it lasted two and half hours they went I mean that we were trying to live blog it and they were going so fast they were going Apple use apples I was talking about to some folks outside before a volcanoes are usually really chill like because Apple really wants you to understand what they're doing and so they go through it really really deliberatively here's the thing here's why it matters we're going to tell you about the thing here this back serious tax reminder we here's the thing here's the thing now we're going to do demo here's why it matters again and you can just like write the news in the live blog and then write why it matters and then make a joke and then make a snarky joke and then wait for KC new to make a much funnier joke yeah meanwhile Samsung keynote it's like what do you want you want a washing machine you want to dryer we make nuclear power plants we got five phones look like it's like yes like they're just a very different style keynote felt like a Samsung keynote a little tiny bit yeah yeah because they don't know so fast it had so much stuff any whoa diss on yeah yeah okay good so I don't know it's an L is the Samsung mic back off man it's gonna any minute now yeah good so so this so they were like racing through the first part of this keynote and and then they really devoted a lot to the Mac because they had a that was one of their missions was to say hey we're still make max we're gonna we're finally because we've got the memo we're going to make them faster better you know we're doing this iMac Pro and I mean the specs on it were just insane and so that was one thing the other thing was they are continue to be on and this is Tim Cook is personally extremely invested in this they're still on this big crusade to make the iPad a true productivity device not unlike what Microsoft is doing except in a really a different way with with with really I mean I would go so far as to say that if they were to succeed this hi it's really the replacement of the graphical user interface ultimately now they may not ever succeed in it don't give me the know yet I know they're not going to totally replace it but the more tasks during a day that people do on the multi-touch interface whether it's theirs or somebody else's only they kind of have a lead on that on tablets right now sales are down but they have a lead in the number of apps and developers I think it if it succeeds one day will be looked upon as the transition to the next UX but so they spent time on that I think however the probably historically looking back on that keynote the most interesting thing was the announcement of a our kit not the whole pod no not the home pod although we should talk about that a our kit is a foundational thing they've done to allow hundreds of millions of iOS devices to run augmented reality you know it's got an it's got various api's in the new iOS it's got various it's got an SDK right and so they're not they didn't announce a first-party AR app it's not like the tango a phone which is the Android equivalent but you know it's not like there's a million tango phone sirs am i right Jeff there's one tango phones that right there's the lenovo PR Linnell both PR right there in the front row by the way we see all the rest of you too will be come back more products one by one and so I know I just think you know they they they said hundreds of millions of iOS devices would be able to use this so it has backward compatibility I talked to them later about it and they said they think it's about 90 percent of their actively used devices will be able to use this so I mean to me maybe AR won't amount to anything I doubt it I think it's going to be a big deal I'm not saying Apple is going to be the leader in it but they sort of put their stake in the ground and said hey our approaches you know you can just go to town and all of these people install base who by the way they made a point as they do often of saying all of them upgrade to the newest version within a matter of months which is always a shot at Android but if they do upgrade to this newest version they'll have this AR capability well hey let's go did it feel like there shot an Android this year was like they were so rushed they didn't spend a lot of time on it like they do it every year this year sounds like yeah they have one slide bad it's boring now we make fun of a bad day up they had the upgrade to my yeah I think they only had the 7% Android devices are running the latest version 86% of iOS devices right that was the only shot at Android yeah well they had a million other things to announce yeah but on ar10 it's what's interesting to me because we have been expecting this next iPhone to be such a radical change a arcade on the existing iPhone iPad 2 they demoed it on is it very good very good just using the camera on the phone they had other sensors other to be the plus size iPhone have two cameras which lets you fight what kinds of things you can see how can get even better and that I think is that's the problem for the Android ecosystem right because Google can't guarantee what kind of hardware you have and with Apple can certainly guarantee what kind of I heart with it next item well the other interesting thing is Google's play here is tango which requires a suite of like crazy sensors you know special death cameras the whole thing Apple has you told that gamma depth not death but maybe maybe it was like we're we're just evil now well I'm sorry I had a follow-up joke and I lost your you see I'm and you know Apple stuff works on like a bunch of current devices because they figured out what stuff they needed that they could do with the depth camera on the iPhone 7 and what stuff actually works so when you do the AR kit on an iPhone it doesn't create a full perfect 3d map of the room or the universe that you're in the way the tango phone does because they're like yeah we don't need that we just need to know what surfaces there are the and then we'll track those and it turns out that getting 90% of the way there is pretty darn good and like that's really interesting and it sets them up in this like there's this next you know AR platform battle and like the players are really weird right the ones you expect Apple Facebook Google and then there's like snapchat hanging out like yeah we're about to do this to it snapchat can just build all their stuff on a arcade right yes that's it they're not please don't make a phone like don't do that that's a bad idea yeah but right so their app just runs on the iPhones they can get weightless and when we mention a company will the representatives right right but they're just going to keep putting an app on the phone yeah so they get the value out of this that's a that helps snapshot right and I think a very specific way but and I think I'm sorry guys i but snapchat needs also like I don't know if the AAR kit thing is true for them because snapchat is a new company just IPO right not well that well they need growth that's what new companies do and the iPhone is dominant you know in the US and certain ways but around the world they need Android they need to actually start getting well but there's nothing said that can't use both there's a but but keep but a pure Apple your thing all new chips on a arc it and that it is but if you're thinking if your Apple and remember you guys know this very well but but cool makes its money over time when you use their services including when you use them on and I on an Apple device Apple makes most not all but most of the money that you're that they're going to make off you when you leave the store or make your monthly payments or whatever you buy the phone and so if your snapchat and a our kid is good and you know it's good for Apple Apple can say well snapchat stuff looks better on our phones because we have this thing and on Google's phones they have to kind of do their own code or you know it's it's going to be it's going to be interesting home pod we should talk about that for a minute I think it's important you know as reporters and reviewers we have to say we don't there's a whole lot we don't know about home pod especially the parts that will directly compete in artificial assistant kind of terms with the echo and the Google home you all know that I mean I've been tweeting and also writing but tweeting per year about Siri fails taking screenshots and putting on two United Airlines yeah that's well whole squares will the United Airlines you are president as their hands sit now returning home podcast right so you know they have apparently gotten more serious about Siri but to the extent that my understanding is they were building a music player they said they've been working on it for years it was pretty clear that the parts of it that did not have to do with music seem seem to have been added pretty much later because the slide was on the was visible for about ten seconds that that said oh and I can also do all these thing you know can do all things you have that musicologist Japanese acknowledge every consumer wants and the best by saying I don't do you have any musicologist because I was and Best Buy says yes that person over there in the blue shirt and I magnolias anytime you're seeking the help of a knowledge us there's something wrong with you so so some of you may may have read about this but if you haven't I'm going to say it anywhere but you just got police do it again they waving its senior equal so a thief at the event they took the turn I guess not all the journalists but a selected group of journalists broke us into groups of one or two or three and then we were entered this little room they had set up inside the convention center where they had they made it sort of a fake little living room and they had a sonís play three which is a very good speaker for those who are those who and one know this I think it's very good it's a not for an audiophile lunatic left you but for normal for podcast listeners I made the and they have had an echo which is a garbage garbage but you don't expect you know by an echo thing no I'm buying the best speaker in the world and then they had this home pod set up and of course the home pod literally blew them away I mean it just sounded pancakes went through a series of four or five songs they point of different things out at one point they combine two home pods and in gan Hotel California the acoustic version and you could hear that that's what the young people walk yeah and $700 to get Hotel California rendered is excellent ever been already sure acoustic version pretty sure people that want to listen to a perfect rendition of the acoustic version of Hotel California live is the exact target market that they are originally yeah it could be yeah but I get it going did you not think it sounded got some class by the way open it Salah weakly like you expand your mind I thought the I thought the home pod sounded incredible I think that whatever it is they're doing on a single speaker to like craft the audio and bounce in different directions is very confusing Neil and I have had many fights about this many many fine I think that the Alexa sound like garbage but the Alexa was playing over Bluetooth instead of drugs and li-fi oh yeah yeah the echo get it right I'm sorry no I'm not everybody else calls it like so I can't do okay dad silent I am Telling You this room of nerds you'd not vote with us bro like it's an echo I just kept quiet after I chaste says you and waited for the other well my first up parents on controls Willie's going just ya know it is so-so it sounded good it sounded good but the Sonos sounded weird yeah I agree and when I was not I was in a different session than you and in our session which had the great John Patrick patch Kowski there used to be a colleague of mine now is at BuzzFeed we were both looking at each other and we actually both several times asked the Apple people I usually say were saying well we took it out of the box we tuned it you know how Sonos has a tuning system on your phone and they said oh we level set everything it's all you know we're liking doesn't sound like our cirrhosis so so the big question with how God is not I'm sure it sounds great right I mean it is a just it has better speaker stuff in it than the other speakers of its class whether or not you think it sounds better than various Sonos things a matter of taste yeah but I'm sure it is good yeah it's a high end of good the real question is how does it compete with the Amazon echo yeah and Alexa family of products how does it compete with them you know I have zero information on that right colleges they're not they didn't show it it isn't ready yeah those parts of it I suspect are not ready right and so if they're expecting to fill in with what also Syria you saw Siri that means your expectations are immediately low right because right now people are buying Amazon products and talking to them in their homes instead of talking to Siri on their phone right or they're buying the Google home and talking that instead of Siri on their phone so why would you buy this other thing and I there's as far as I can tell no information no innovation but I will say two things because I think you put it really well I think one reason they don't talk to Siri on their phone is that it has disappointed them that's over the years but the other reason is there is something to be said and we talked about this on this podcast in The Verge cast many times that the idea of it being ambient in the home it's not fully ambient cause there's a device there but still it's kind of ambient you can talk to it is a different use case it's a different experience and and it's very engaging once you start doing it as long as you believe it's not listening all the time and really it's not listening until the wake word is said but that's the same of the rails right not only so I think that despite that experience which has made people want to talk to the echo I don't know anything about the sales of Google home I know I have a vague idea about the sales of the echo just because of what analysts have been saying and I guess they I don't I haven't read anything about the Google home sailes it hasn't sold amazingly but it's done pretty well and I give Amazon a lot of credit for it and yet most of the people who own an echo do not use the 6000 skills it has which is the their word for a voice-controlled app because you have to say another trigger word after the main trigger word nobody can remember the other trigger words and it's a whole thing so I mean we're very early on all these things an Apple jumping in now presuming that they can make Siri fulfill its potential it isn't too late to jump in I mean everybody knows that every product they did which people ten years later think they invented they really didn't invent they just kind of perfected it or protected it enough to commercialize it you're just trying to goad me to talk about the trio and I'm not going to do it I I have no problem we can devote the rest of weekend about the rest of podcast to you and I defending the trio and Neil I not Harbhajan the other thing I'd point out I love the to dear God neither I need to leave the stage the thing about Syria the whole Ponder's Mobile trio best trio ever made actually yes oh god oh god I had to take it one today I attended that goats Rio pro was actually supposed to be the first Android prototype Windows Mobile trios yeah well now they do yeah again Thank You Diderot meaning give a quiet room but one guy said wow I'm taking that front of that the other thing that was interesting about Syria and the home pod is the way Apple talked about it on stage they talked about how Siri is going to support certain domains and then use that same language on the iPhone and like the way that Siri is going to open itself up to third parties Amazon's like any app you want if you can remember the key word sure what the hell it can work Google is like well we're going to try making or like work like the web and I don't know what that looks like but we'll see Apple seems to be somewhere in the middle they want more control so that it isn't chaos but doing that and getting a bunch of people to throw in and the way that everybody threw in like what they did on the App Store is very very difficult and I don't know how they're going to do is I would only point out to you that if my you know I sit here and at my age and brain cells are dying every second we sit here but as best as I can recall the theory the original company app Siri would it was before Apple bought it debuted at my conference they came and demoed it to me I I was in charge of the demo so I put it on stage they called them domains also and they did they had done deals because they were a little company nobody understood what they were doing every cared so they had done deals with you know companies that aggregated sports scores companies that did weather companies that did moving in fact they had many more domain skills Apple actually got rid of a bunch of them and I suspect part I can't I don't know the history but I think part of it might have even been legal I'm not sure once if it's a little startup company and they want to use your stuff it's okay it's fine there's a big company with deep pockets that want to use your stuff suddenly the calculus changes but yeah I mean I think they're I dare use of the word domain is not unlike skills per Alexa what I want to talk about the Google version compared to the Apple version right I think we are I'm just speaking for you all we are probably familiar with how the oh let them speak for you you download the ox app you go through the skills you have this go do it on an echo not a common Alexa Alexa system and one down and then there's the Apple version in the Apple version it seems like it's gonna be the same as we know nothing about let me know nothing that I put but the way they talked about Siri and the way it will be extended is basically you download an app on your phone and that Apple taught Syria then series email address that app that is Siri kids is they've talked about for a couple years now you can do that with iOS 10 so anyways but the Apple's answer to every problem is we made an app store like what's a Smart Watch good for an app store what's iMessage it for the wildly successful iMessage and the Google Ads is whole other idea yeah and I think you probably know more about it than anybody can you try to explain that Google's idea is they want to make these assistants work like a website so instead of saying hey Google I made this app for the Google assistant put it on your thing and them saying yes we approve of your app now it's available in our store for people to find they just want you to say hey we made our assistant app it's over here at this you know web address and I'm like cool we'll look at it it works cool now you can ask for it so they're trying to the same way that you don't install a website on your phone unless you're cool put the verge comm on your homescreen let's take a five minute break everything that you they don't think that you should have to install a website on the Google assistant now that's a very beautiful dream which I don't believe they can actually pull off anywhere nearly as easily as they can because the assistant gives you one answer if you ask for a thing vocally and you get five results you are super unhappy with that experience so they're always going to give you the top result and that top result that could be garbage could be garbage and there's no transparency to whether that top result arrived because it like won the search algorithm or because they made a backdoor deal with Google's look even even very hard to know where this is going to go there is like you know look as I said before I'm the king of pointing out Siri fails I think but it doesn't fail all the time and if you ask it about sports for instance you get a beautifully on the phone or it's a visual experience and again don't know about home pod but does have a screen on top strange place to have a screen I don't know but where you want is a screen facing directly up in the corner of your room well maybe it'll maybe it'll project like reject down to the healing room like those alarm clocks to do that you know but yeah Apple built in 1986 radio panic alarm clock I've been waitin by the way you can have for $300 only plays Hotel California but here's the thing the the domains they've chosen to really work on do better are presented in a better way and I found actually a more accurate way if I say how are the Red Sox doing it's actually smart which I do for the most part how are the Patriots doing those are there Cheetos the right team out there really do you think that's wait a minute do you think that's a right answer because to me the right answer is it's the ones they just won their fifth Super Bowl I didn't say they did it just won their fifth Super Ball super you really want to you really want to throw down and is doing later are they doing well not nice no but he I was actually making a tech point using using a heroic example the Red Sox so if I say hired the Red Sox doing and there's a game underway CIRA will give me the score of the game if I say how are the Red Sox doing and there's not a game underway at that moment they'll give me the standings and they'll actually say something that seer will actually say something intelligence like the Red Sox are they'll use verbs like Red Sox are creaming the the Blue Jays or the Yankees are are edging the Reds or whatever it is you know and it sounds almost like you're talking to a person with a funny voice but you know it's one of the better things they do and that's I think one of the reasons they they do this domain approach the thing that apples about the run face first into is the thing that Google has really not done a great job messaging which is Siri on the home pod is going to be able to do a smaller set of thing what Siri on the phone can do so when I talked to the Google assistant on a phone on my watch or in Google home or in my car it will randomly fail to achieve the thing I asked it to do because it doesn't work on that particular device and Apple's already admitted its going to do a smaller domain of thing well Siri already does different things on the different device right even before home plus with the iPad 2 but like having a speaker tell you sorry I can't do that when you know the phone can do it is incredibly frustrating right it is frustrating although in and this is not a debate cuz I agree with you but I would just note yeah that at least in my experience in our house that go in the Google home say I can't I don't know that or I didn't understand that or and my favorite on the echo is that has all the songs because you've connected it to some service or I'm actually I think on Amazon so music service whatever and you asked for song and it gives you a version by somebody you've never heard of that it's like a cover by it's like I don't know it's aw you have to be really specific and then you try to get more specific no I want the you know I want Adele's version of Adele's number one and from the album 25 or whatever you know and and then it says well I don't the light goes out it hasn't understood you so and it's insisting on playing the cover by somebody you never heard of and that kind of thing goes on well I think the other thing is interesting is Google is so far I think is the only company that's really figured out multiple users yeah the assistants Apple is like surprisingly bad at knowing that more than one person lives in a house like the Apple TV's like it's you now you're not as friends the only person I've ever encountered in this living that you're misunderstanding a want multiple Apple tea being so into the house yours is Becky their neighbors you have just in case they come over about the street right um but I think that's like another home hard question right they haven't really solved multiple you so we're spending all this time talking about something we really have admitted six times we don't know everything too much about but except what we know what Peter and I know is that under certain controlled circumstances it sounds amazingly good yeah it's all I can tell you and it has you know you can touch the top of it to change the ball you so I know this so zoom out for me well so you see the big feature of Andy of computing you see all these little Apple moves you see iOS 11 turning the iPad into something that looks more like a computer just wrap up where you think Apple's position now business well I think Apple first of all I can't prove what I'm about to say but I believe Apple has a huge significant effort on a are I think they have a smaller effort on VR I think it's interesting to talk to people I was just talking to somebody who knows a lot about it outside in the reception I think there is a changing perception about VR and AR nobody thinks I mean everybody thinks both of them are going to be significant but I think people think AR is going to be the more broadly adopted thing both for consumers and for enterprise and verticals obviously VR will also have roles in both those domains to use the term but Apple has a small VR effort they did do a VR demo on what the iMac the iMac Pro or just the regular new iMac which is also beefed up but really I think they're putting their principal weapon and AR now Google is doing obviously famously has daydream and some other VR things but I think they're doing a huge effort on AR and I think really everybody I think the secret story is that everybody is trying to get AR to look like this yeah and I think until it looks like this we're going to be seeing it on 2d screens until somebody can get this and this by the way is not necessarily a 10 year time frame um one big temper company talked to me about and I don't know if they'll pull it off but they talked to me about their hopes to do it in three or four years something like that and they actually you know how to have a timeline for it so I think I think Apple wants to be in the AR game in a big way and so that even though we saw Big Mac demos and and the home pod which everybody wrote about and the iPad stuff of which they managed to make very impressive but I'm sure it is I mean you and you've got a chance I get a chance our colleagues got a chance to hold those iPads they're very nice and they I said iPod did not but I mean I've had they they mean the specs that on the iPad are better than on a lot of laptops and the specs on the new iPad pros just feel like apples just showing off like that there's literally nobody in the planet that is within like three years of producing like a pure tablet experience except maybe the surface which is sort of a different category and apples like yeah well we just we made it better because we had nothing else right but I think again just to repeat maybe the maybe we'll be done with the with WGC but I just think that that ARS is a is a but one of the book you know they're working doing something with cars I can't tell you what it is but I think a are is a big focus for them yeah so we were just a code always together yeah right codes your last code here you just assume they all know what it is so they're Kafka knows what it's a room for billionaires just like this room you want to tell the same ticket price you there's no VIP reception that you know kept you know Karen I killed that really yes some years ago just kill the open bar make a billionaire Spears right tell mother get your of conference somewhere yeah so well I mean so Kara Swisher who's a fantastic journalist and has been my my business partner for years and I in 2003 started this conference the idea of which was to put the leaders of tech and media industry on stage interview them and we've done that I think there's pretty much nobody major running a tech company could think of who hasn't at least once been on our stage some have been on multiple times and we now call it the code conference and it's just finished and these guys were there and he'd be amazed at the budget they have for tickets I mean it's just like incredible and you know there are always are a number of highlights but brass purposes this podcast I think one of the interesting highlights and we talked about this a little before is that Andy Rubin came I interviewed him on stage he as you know is the guy who invented Android and then sold it to Google and then ran it at Google for its most you know kind of its launch and then follow-on period for about what ten years yeah and really built the Android organization the Android ecosystem and but before that he had another smartphone called the the sidekick he really wanted to call it the hip hop which was the codename the cool kids called it the hip hop no t-mobile vetoed it on them and and when you would go into their headquarters it was maybe 40 mobiles renegade baby behind yeah he's a pro hip hop signs all over the place but company was called danger and it was kind of it was a cool thing so Andy knows a lot about engineering he knows a lot about heart he loves hardware he has a company it's kind of an incubator for hardware other hardware companies and then part of it he explained on stage as a studio where I guess they fiddled with their own things he loves robots he has some robotic stuff that we didn't talk too much about we didn't talk too much about it because they announced the day of his interview that they were bringing out a phone and a home device like the ones who have been - maybe not like maybe better who knows they're talking about and it's this ambien OS you mentioned and you know the phone is well dieter what did you think of the pump yeah but I think the only two people who don't work at that company who like play with them right so we're just think I thought that it felt a lot like a contrition no it's a phone that knows what it is and that's a weird thing to say but it's it's kind of square and blocky it doesn't try to have rounded edges it's got a ceramic back but it just feels like glass but that's all like standard stuff honestly well titanium titanium sure I I want to be more impressed with titanium but it's like it's another metal like I don't they make Joe Penna dieter bone with just on the metal yes yeah they make jet not Liam they get out of my face ceramic get out of here but the the gimmick insofar as are like it has a thing that differentiates it is one it's made by an a/d Ruben - it has a couple of pogo pins on the back and a little magnet like Mickey your what - Pogo pin logo Palin is a little spring loaded metal contact that you can use to charge things without having to like actually plug it into a jack can I just - thank you some inside baseball here yeah so well it's like has any onstage she's like talking Andy Andy agrees with Walt to let us publish a bunch of information about this device yeah tonight before which is like very normal journalism stuff well lets us know that this deal has been made I would say 12:30 a.m. the night before dieter and I are sitting in the bar my name bars always 3 a.m. in the Austrian we're sitting in a bargain or with like you know the c-suite our company like drinking whiskey we going to call from Walt and he's like good to work so you're not a true story what we did for dinner and I truck it but you understand I called you five minutes after huh from Andy I'm sure not like I was like I'll watch a TV show and then I'll call him five minutes Sabir are furiously blogging and work and we just keep saying the word that drinking an ordinary I don't my mom's listening to it we're we just ate a whole bunch of skittles and we just kept saying the word pogo pins I did just get getting increasingly funny saga bins by the way are not funny i case you're wondering they're just small spring-loaded pins yeah yeah but a the plugger pants are just there for peace or the story really ends on a low note a reality of code opens sets in what they're there to do is charge up a bunch of modules because he's trying to make a modular ecosystem of things that you can clip on to the phone or to the home speaker tear wall or to your sister like I like whatever he wants like what else very strange energy was our environments everywhere oh my god very nerdy i/o happening and think of fun while inevitable technology behind the module I'm just going to keep powering through this yeah keep going Pogo pin fro do it I think was better than we just said his name now he would eat me good okay keep talking other than the fact that his name is Andy Rubin what makes him think that he can launch a brand-new OS a home speaker and Android phone and have any of them actually be successful okay so I think that that is the key question here's my take on it so the phone is a little bit of an outlier I think he just want I well I know this he wanted to do a phone he's wanted to do a phone for years now he said in his blog post which also ran an oddly as a print ad I mean look I worked for print newspaper for a long time so I'm not going to knock print but for guy like him to buy a print ad and the Wall Street Journal in New York Times is a little bit odd we're looking for when you open the New York Times nowadays is self relief I think nobody you want relief from the news so there I go anyway he criticized Android and Android phones I think he said Android makes you fight with yourself with something and and he said on phase of you there are no good Android phone yeah so he wanted to make a phone I think at roughly the same time or a little bit afterward he got this idea for this broader vision which is really amazing so the phone is Android it's a nice Android phone it could have been a nexus or a pixel coming out of Google if he still was there he probably would have done the thing with the pins on one of those I think the you have to show you have to put that to one side the real story of what Andy is trying to do at this is company which is called the central is is the ambient OS new platform designed for the era where we're heading toward ambient computing we're heading toward the computer kind of controlling everything and being less of an object that you're focused on and being more of a you know I think ultimately the the carpets the walls your clothing everything will have sensors and chips and you won't be talking into his device or the home pod or the echo or the Google home just be sort of like you and I book uses phrase and columns in the last few months it'll be like on the Starship Enterprise you to speak and the thing has a big it will talk back to you and if it needs to can throw something on a giant screen so I think that's a ways out but the steps along the way are to try to be ambient so I don't know what this OS is going to look like and I don't think I mean he and his team may have some rough idea but I don't know but I think his intention is for it to be different than Android and iOS not just because it would be insane if it wasn't different but because he's aiming at a different thing obviously Google and Apple think they can get there with her with modifications of what they've got obviously he thinks it's better to start fresh and also maybe there's some legal issues I don't know but that's so that I think that's the more important thing and I I don't think the home device is his last device that he's going to try to do I think he's going to try to do a kind of hardware ecosystem backed up by this new software platform but will UPS what seems to be a microphone you have to have the phone right the mellor what he made the point you don't have that problem for the rest of the network if you are trying to watch this kind of body regardless of what happens in future handy computing I think the screen in your pocket is tremendously important I think yeah for the next ten years I would agree with you yeah short and then we'll just fill the screens into our arms and then neither sister well Wireless Exhibit A with all she was a very nice person but no but like if he wants to build this ecosystem of things having the phone under his control means he's going to put essentials assistant onto that song if we'd even mentioned that kealoha he has anna city wants to do an assistant also but his home device he claims he claims it will interoperate with Siri Google assistant Cortana yeah I don't know Bixby which is the Samsung one I mean I say onstage well what's it a bunch of them and then he said I didn't mention Bixby and Andy Rubin said thank you for not mentioning it because can we can we get him to record his phone call when he calls up Tim Cook and asks him to put Siri on his snake they're running MVNOs what I would love to be a fly on that one this is like the big question and I Walt and I basically just directly threatened eater that we'd make him talk about the open web no con but I'm going to come at it sideways we're now entering a world you brought up the one true answer earlier so you asked Google for a question that you kind of don't know why it's going to give you the answer right is it it's easier which we see it on so you're easier if you can see illiteracy this is promoted advertising Google stuff and here presumably is what the algorithm that you know everyone tries to game has delivered to you here's some other stuff here are some YouTube videos you know where that stuff is coming from because you see it all in context with an assistant you get one true answer there's been a lot of criticism particularly of Google and how they deliver lunch I answer but all of these assistants are fragmented in extremely serious ways like do you see that ever interoperating the way that the web has trained us all to see you know in our operable devices and services I mean the way I see it the metaphor is think of the assistants as your browser so like Alexa is navigator and sure they're pretty has a firebox serious Safari Google is chrome right and the stuff that they go out to get is you know web pages and early information off the web the thing that makes navigator Thunder why hello I'm school that's good man a vagator in Safari one at Chrome version how many people in the audience were alive when navigator was a big deal yeah one all right here a lot if you got a thing in your car graphic a lot of not raised hand a lot of people furiously googling the thing that makes I think it makes all those browsers work is when you make a web page you're like I'm making this web page that it's going to work in this way it's going to here to the spec it's gonna here's where the header is here's where this is and they're all standardized and they all everybody agrees is what it looks like when you ask an assistant to go get you information the thing that the assistant goes and seeks out is not standardized at all and the big question I have for Apple and Google and Amazon and Microsoft and essential and who else is making assistants and Amazon or favorite robot comm and it sounds like a dog machines just none of them so far as I can tell are talking to each other about how this assistant should interoperate with apps or with information on the web or anything else they're all just racing to build the best algorithm for their assistants to figure the stuff out on their own and build it builds deals on the backend to make all of their you know assistants get you the information and so one of the things is that I made this our current tech revolution happen was that there was for a period I don't know if it still is here but there was for a period a big open web where everybody competed on a level playing field and you know as long as they could like pay for servers to keep their website running if they just made a better product customers could just go to them and nobody would stop them like for instance to travel sites yes what is the number one travel site and I don't know the answer to this as of this moment but I know it has changed yeah every couple years Hipmunk kayak whatever something separately Abed right in a world of ambient computing where you don't know how that information gets to your computer and like if anybody is like we're to make sure there's a standard for it I don't know that we have that open web thing and I actually even Google who says they want to follow that model I don't know if I trust that they're actually doing it well and and you know one of the limitations of Syria and I think they've actually one of the things they've actually fixed a little bit still have a lot more work to do is they started Syria the company before after bought an apple kept this relationship they had to deal with this outfit WolframAlpha which is a very I think a very high quality but very but it's limited in what it kinds of things it knows repository of you know site that has a lot of information on it and that's the that's where it initially drew a lot of answers then they did a deal with being and for wild thing was you know in a very serious race they never caught Google but they were pouring a lot of money and so they were you know they had a plausible base I think now I mean I far as I can tell Microsoft has not if you're listening Microsoft I'm not saying you've officially given up on being but I think as a priority it's certainly a much lower priority than it once was at Microsoft and but it's what Siri goes to for a lot of information because Apple and Google are competitors so they're going to have to figure all that out in it so your points I agree all your points about the web I think we can't close off this part of the discussion are we done yet by the way our last thanks we can't close up this part of discussion without talking about privacy and security because I think they're really important there really is no proof independent proof that I've ever seen that these things are not listening and are not recording what you say until you say the wake word they all say don't worry even though this is set up in your bedroom or your kitchen or wherever and Amazon's putting cameras on it man yeah the Amazon has one that is called the echo show that they actually want you to use in your bedroom because they it can show whether your looks great is the camera I'm sorry yeah I'm sorry the look and supposedly it has the intelligence to say whether you look good in whatever you're wearing but I think of Amazon I think a computer telling me about yeah right exactly in your bedroom so you know there's I don't I don't think Amazon would do this based on what I know about Jeff Bezos and the company but there's no actual guarantee that somebody at Amazon didn't make a mistake somehow they aren't listening and even if they're being perfect and they don't ever do anything until you say Alexa and by the way I'm not singling them out it could be just they made this thing for your bedroom with a camera I don't know but kind of aggressive it's an aggressive move but the the others will have the same issue so the other problem is hacking what I mean what's to stop someone even if all these companies are doing exactly what they say and they're being really scrupulous about it what is to stop somebody from hacking into either the servers or somehow into the devices and there's no it's not just hacking it because it is there's also governments like yeah I consider the knackers yeah well thank you hackers for the common book their control all it's doing with the rest of his career right okay look right now Haley I know we're not going to get into this subject I swear and I'll kill you guys if you try to get into it but this subject so James Comey is a big hero but let us let us not forget no let us not forget that James Comey tried to try to make Apple make a version of iOS with a backdoor and said don't worry give it to the FBI no one will ever get it yeah three weeks ago my right about three weeks ago it was a global ramp somwhere attack that was based on an exploit supposedly locked up and some the digital vault at the NSA and somehow it was stolen so uh you know yes the government is a factor hackers are a factor eight up rogue employees could be a factor there's all kinds of back but was Alexa in particular there has already been one criminal case where the government went to Amazon and said give us the voice commands that this echo device received so we can construct the timeline of when this person was home or not it actually end up going nowhere because I think I just confessed Amazon was like well we don't have thought about this right but it's going to happen again and again and right and that but that would be venting work that was even asking I mean that was limited to asking what happened after you said the wake words yeah an issue demands I'm talking about what happens before you say the wake word I mean there are lots of people who don't want that thing in their kitchen or in their house because they are not a hundred percent sure that somebody is somebody whether it's the company or some intruder or the government somebody isn't recording what you're basically putting a big microphone on an array of seven microphones or the home pod is six and I what does the Google homeless three geez just to yeah your book basically putting a bunch of microphone you're bugging your own house that is what you're doing you really you're bugging your are next I wish I had written that in a column that's a good phrase yeah got a couple hours I give it to you guys get to work you're bugging that's a headline you're bugging your own house and you're trusting that a the bug won't record anything until you say of some magic word that they give you and B once it does it will only act on certain commands and see it will erase the will only use the recording guru bits machine learning and then it will erase it and this is Apple kind of like huge advantage because their business is selling you things discrete right and also services I think you should all be aware that Apple yeah but they don't sell they don't still ads right and they don't but Google's business is collecting the data and using it to do all this other stuff particularly on rising Amazon's yeah I mean Amazon will tell you constantly that they're about privacy Amazon relative to Google I think Amazon and they collect a lot but they collected in a particular going to use the word domain which has to do with what you buy obviously they try to build psychographic profiles of you and all demographic profiles but it's really about Commerce and so does Google but and certainly Apple knows what you bought from Apple but Apple sells Apple stuff they don't you know they don't sell you can't buy tied from Apple so you know there's a progression they're very nineteen that purchase I have a question goober novo announces like a really high-end speaker worth election see yes is that coming out give me due date when how much fun trying to break some news here on the stage there's our what those of you those of you who are not journalists first of all congratulations but secondly that exchange with one of the one of the best and most honest PR people I know is what happens that's our life what is that coming out soon all right so we got a few minutes left before day questions giving me we always do stay in the state I think we did say said last show we talked to the big companies but give these people who listeners submit advice how do you how should they start thinking about these companies which they expect from these companies these companies are asking for our money our time our attention our data in different ways explain like what's your view of what we should be asking for in return and what is too far so first of all you know we've been most we talking about the and we really haven't talked much at all about Facebook which by the way now has a hardware lab can you can raise your hand if you love Facebook raiser everyone person do you love Instagram like yeah okay I think this is Facebook's biggest Pro I was talking about raise your hand if you love Apple raise your hand if you love my clothes a lot of hands not like but love this is love really words is what I hesitate okay all right that's fine fine no judgment pretend you're in your therapists office just no judge picture sauce guy raise your hand if you love Google Wow all right your hands an anvil but more vocal so but I think your Facebook point is well-taken and what I was about to say is addition to everything they do including owning Instagram as you pointed out earning whatsapp owning oculus which is you know it's a hard work company and a software company with an fabulous app store so I understand it ah they have a certain I have to disclose that my wife is where the audience works for oculus is App Store it's my my favorite app and I can now disclose that after I retire I'm becoming their nationals folks for the oculus aster because I am the demographic they want because no I but what Facebook does have this thing called building 8 they hired this really smart woman who primarily is a heart Wiz a hardware engineer and used to run DARPA the secret research agency to Pentagon she's really smart and really terrific to interview name is Regina Dugan and she's running a thing called building 8 and I don't know what they're doing except when she's what did she say they're they're going to eventually figure out or they're working on trying to figure I can type with your brain and some others you can hear with your skin I think here with your skin yeah pick a body part right - yeah thanks thanks for putting em in my head so I don't want to I'm not going to go through the list of come and say this this this run buttons which here's what we with these big companies which are have a lot of power over a lot of aspects of your life and are going to get more I think we need to expect a very high level of a consumer care and by that I don't just mean oh if it's broken they'll fix it if they have a bug in their software or there's some problem in their hardware they'll take it back you know I think what we need is for the big companies as well as the small smaller startups like I don't know tinder or something is one example with as many others so knows we talked about is a very good company but it's not giant like these guys and then a lot of companies whose names we don't know yet who are working on some of the stuff the closer we get to ambient the and there are these steps if you get a are glasses if you get a home device that kind of literally so good that it fades into the background in your mind and does a wide variety of things it knows a lot about you because that's the way it gets better I think we have to have not like micromanagement kind of regulations but we need at least a broad set of principles in a statute passed by the United States Congress I'm laughing already and there's like waltz retirement role is like Congress Congress will do it passed by a United States Congress that might be inclined to actually be intelligent do something bipartisan and think it through that would talk about prime you know we're the only developed country in the world that has no privacy law the Supreme Court has evinced a you know a privacy doctrine but it's there's no statute covering this kind of stuff and also security may may be one law then maybe two laws I don't know but it has to be written you know this you know how many times have you and I talked about it on this very podcast the FCC has keeps depending who's in power they keep jumping between titles of a very old telecommunications law to try to deal with national American one yes I agree with you but the point is I think is a better solution which is to have an actual the law that directly addresses it because that's 2017 and it's going to be 2027 and we need a law that will will be worth something in 2027 so yeah to answer your question I think that's really important and I would tell you something I think the companies and I've talked to some of them about it they would as they move more and more into this ambient stuff they kind of see the benefit of having some guardrails that they know they can live with it now ability in the market yeah and of course they have lobbyists in Washington they'll make sure the bill isn't right too bad for them as consumers in this room in the regime that we currently live in what should we how do we how we ask those companies to get there is it just by the right stuff yeah I think you vote with your dollars I mean that's the most important thing so I mean I'll just be uh this is not a surprise to anybody and I've actually answered it directly before I carry an iPhone it's not I own a Google pixel because I'm a tech reporter and I have to know but I actually think it's quite a good phone I gave it a good review but I value I want Mossberg personally value privacy more than necessarily maybe everybody has a different way of weighting these things I weight privacy very highly and I think Apple because of the business model you explain their lit much less likely to be collecting stuff about me and certainly to be selling it or using it in a way that's bad so and so and the encryption is better on the phone because they don't really they make their money you know as we said when I walk out the door of the store or get it online and so that's a big for me personally that's a big reason I mean I like iOS I like the phones I like the iPad a lot there really isn't a competitor for the iPad but big part of it in my mind is privacy you may have a different set of expectations if there's something you want these companies to do you should vote with your dollars and maybe not upgrade to the same thing next year maybe switch to the one that you think is is standing for something or acting in a way that you want to encourage and don't buy the one from a company you think is doing something you want to discourage basic economics it's great advice but most stuff is free it's hard right like those our attention yeah well but with you never right calm where where where we respect all of your rights all the time unless you're a jerk in my comments in which case I'm Oh baby okay we're going to some questions we got two mics right here get up line up yeah you can't just raise your hand in the back sorry you got to come down here all right we got one over here Wow there's just a lot happening if you're listening um get this a lotta people one going over to stage it is the Thunderdome in here dogs first we're not here all night but we'll take this minute all right well it's not over here oh you guys turn this mic on there we go he has a switch yeah I know hey I just learned it from the birds go yeah my question is that you guys talked about privacy and security a lot but what about Smart TVs tracking us all so I'm here for you it's like really pervasive right I mean if they actually install the tracking at the display driver level so before whatever comes on your screen they're analyzing the picture initially and they know if you're playing a video game they know what video game you're playing you can turn it off and I think it's becoming more and more important for us to explain how to turn it off and it's becoming more and more important for people who review TVs to say don't buy this one because it aggressively tracks you I think it's really difficult because the TV manufacturers also want to sell the services but they don't make the boxes right so roku make some TVs but let's just say on some TVs and plug the roku into it that conversation hasn't happened in a real level yet I think it will actually take another entrant into the TV market who says we're not doing this but our TV is just as good to like actually make a change but it's super pervasive yeah because I mean I have a Samsung and that that turning death thing off is like going through I don't know well we did a whole yeah control off the lead about how how complicated the UI is on TVs after I bought an lg tv which I have the same TV we like the picture on it right speaking of my wife Edie Mossberg sign there I'm the only person at this table who does not have a webOS TV yeah and if you don't know the depth of the agony that causes him we're going to use one that's going to be bad for you all right over here hi sorry I'm just recording this real quick a couple episodes ago you guys spoke about the fab 5 companies you know Apple Google Amazon I think we call them fat but I got my van I made that up sorry so how long do you think before a company can be successful without going through those five and five companies and what do you think they were well you know I mean I can't tell you how long but I think obviously in the first few decades of this whole thing remember this whole personal computing thing that made the web possible that made mobile possible that it's going to make eventually make ambient computing possible autonomous driving that only started in 1977 which sounds like a long time ago for some people but it's only 40 years ago and when you compare that to I don't know the railroads the automobile industry you know the textile industry all these things are much older so I think these weren't always the five big companies and they may not always be the five big companies that could be something that pops up that we don't know that gets into one of the leadership positions and one of these or two these guys may drop away so I don't know how long it will take for there to be changed but any changes in the business and in particularly in the tech business is assured I just don't know what the change would be or when it will and I'm not hoping for any one particular one of these companies to go away but what makes these companies big are they they're all platforms and that's different you know Samsung is is a very powerful electronics company that also is a giant conglomerate that builds ships and buildings and makes chips and does other things but it's not a platform where it's tried constantly keeps trying but it's not a platform and these five companies are big because their platforms for other companies yeah yeah hey my name is Jonathan Walt thanks for taking a picture with me earlier uh-huh no problem myself my question is I've been watching your interviews with a lot of people since fifth grade and I'm curious I'm serious I'm serious I'm curious to know in it I mean really my wife is going you're old yeah I'm curious to know I hope you did something else I must say not really yeah I'm curious to know just because aside from the fact that you are a non tech person reviewing tech products what do you think makes your taste in products and how people interface with their products so perceptive and has become the trade that even tech mogul is really admire and respect I mean Tony Fadell was talking about the yeah we paid everyone that well first of all I meant 10 years as a tech hobbyist at a time when you know to put memory in your computer you had to buy the chips one by one and plug them into a board at a time when you had to learn basic this isn't well known about me but I'm kind of a code I've wrote I wrote like little games and basic you got her to said one point and $79.99 on the App Store laughs a collection uh and and so you know I'm not wasn't when I started my column I wasn't entirely for the time I was pretty tech for that period of time without for somebody who didn't have a computer science degree and wasn't in any way an engineer I knew a lot about the state of the technology then and then I just kept up with it but what I don't know what made it click but I will tell you that I got up every morning to read about tech and to write about tech thinking what would a really smart person who doesn't really care about the insides of the thing and and how the code works and how the hardware works they just want it to work what would they want to know about this whether they should buy it whether they should not buy what are the things that make it great what are the things that make it bad and that was just the mindset I kind of put on my head every day when I would try to evaluate the stuff or write about the stuff and you know other people eventually came around to doing that too so that's the kind of you can find that a lot of places now I just I just kind of took that approach a little earlier than some other people so one piece of advice Walt has always given us is to bounce out how much we treat our enthusiast audience with our big consumer audience I think it should be clear that dieter and I care about the enthusiast audience little bit let's go over here I'll well done out of all the podcast interviews and conferences you did if you can relive one moment in time which one would that be yes yes yes deal dieter in Neela I would like to be redoing this one like Groundhog Day again and again I know I mean look if you're talking about the onstage interviews and the TV things and that kind of stuff you know the highlight was obviously getting to people who you could arguably make the case made the computer revolution the personal computer revolution happened there were many other people who also did and what you don't know when we got gates and jobs together on stages that we called out in the audience four or five other big pioneers who were not in that interview but who were around at the time but getting them on stage was was probably the highlight on stage thing the one I would so I would do that again I mean there's many variations of that interview you could do and they I think a lot of them would have been good care and I actually said to the two of them in the green room before they went on there's a whole story about how it almost derailed which I'm not going to tell now but we said to them from our point of view as producers of this conference if you guys want to get up there and have just a giant cat fight that's fine too but they didn't they were sort of like Statesman the one and then there have been some interviews that didn't go very well just because the kit didn't click and look or the person doing the interview it was a very smart CEO successful but that doesn't mean they were good at talking to a reporter on a stage I mean it's a different skill one that I would have liked to had happen differently was with Mark Zuckerberg who I do respect and think is really smart and he just didn't wasn't feeling well unwanted he's been more than once to our conference and he was turning white on stage that because he was afraid of us but he just wasn't feeling well literally and we care and I were both afraid he was going to like faint on stage and care asked him to this is I'm not telling a new story that people known care in fact you can watch it happen on video asked him to take off his hoodie Casey because he was looked like he was getting hot and you know it worked out okay but it was I sort of wish maybe we had known that he wasn't feeling well and we could have pushed boned it to the next day or done something to make it a better experience but I'm like pretty for the audience and us but especially for him yeah so that's your answer uh hey thanks for doing this tonight guys so I work in the health space and on your your recent kind of world tall tour while you mentioned that you know health might have been one of the areas that you that you would have covered if you didn't go into Magnatech and eventually health tech last week at code mary meeker included a health section for I believe the first time in the sign over the first time but she was serving the Internet and which I think really exemplified how much health and big data are actually intertwined well it sold me to tell people ask a question oh sorry I'm setting it up there um yeah but you so where did you see you know the the kind of health tech space today and you know what do you think it's Challenger or what the biggest opportunity well look I I have not written a ton about it but partly I'd be I'm really honest with you over the years I've had briefings companies they're doing interesting things in health and I've typically kind of shied away from doing a review where I recommended or didn't recommend something because I didn't feel that I had any medical qualifications and I would the last thing I wanted to do was to give people what could be construed as medical advice so I didn't do it but I did a few things where I thought I knew something about it but not for the most part I think it's super exciting and important and I think it's part of ambient computing in a way and you know I think that the FDA has got to get more modern in its approach to consumer tech medical devices like glucometers or you know I don't know just stuff that people have to use who have different medical conditions to manage their health in a better way but I also think there's a there's an issue there's an there's a hubris in the valley in Silicon Valley where people who are very fit and very healthy think they can have figured out a way to I don't know cure cancer cure diabetes they don't have the medical basis for it and they just you know there are these fad diets somebody at our conference who I don't know or didn't had just met was proudly telling me that there are a couple of people to conference that were fasting entirely fasting for a week and that this was good for their health and it was part of what his company was pushing and I was like I had a little argument with them and and so because I even I said how many doctors do you have but what kind of doctors are they and you know all that stuff so you know I think those are kind of the push and pull of it but it's it's going to be huge all right we have time for one more if you didn't get we're going to sign a bunch of posters give away t-shirts so don't worry about it but we have time for one more here Thanks what would you retiring it's very much like a change now there's a lot of people here who are no harder than me we're not retiring in fact to us next week all right this is actually for all you guys because it's very much about the changing of the guard from you all to guys like these guys yeah I like them okay but anyways so I really want to know what you guys think about what the future of technology journalism looks like okay spend a lot of time we should all talk about it and and Nilay and either actually think about it more than I do because oh I'm leaving but first of all let me just say and I this is something I absolutely believe and you can doubt me if you want but these are two of the best journalists and particularly the best tech journalists I've ever had the pleasure to work with and remember who my business partner has been the great Kara Swisher she's fantastic these guys are great and they have a fantastic future ahead of them and I'm on their back about certain things fair annoying I and I think so you know tech journalism changes like tech changes the principles the ethical principles the way you do journalism in tech journalism should not be different than the way you do journalism in sports journalism political journalism whatever I mean all this FUD that's been thrown up about fake news and you can't trust you know mainstream media or whatever there's just a lot of junk but people at these news organizations are working very hard and they are ethical for the most part that were like any other profession there are going to be outliers there going to be problems I saw I think the first thing is tech journalism has to stick to principles of good journalism and then you have to go out and you have to do several things one of which is you'd like to be you'd like to bring to your readers news before other people do but not I mean two minutes before in a sloppy way I don't think that's very valuable but I think if you can do it early and have the time to explain it that's great because then readers get the reward of learning something first on your site much more important is explaining it much more important is wading through like we've been stumbling around trying to do on this podcast what it what are the what is the tech industry up to because one of the lines and it's a little more subtle even than what Neil I just described one of the lines is between a genuine enthusiasm for the technology you heard Bill Gates in that video which by the way was completely done without my knowledge and I was stunned when they showed it at the code conference one of the you know one of the of the important things is to bounce an enthusiasm for tech with a balanced approach saying well this works in this product and this part of it doesn't work and and not be a cheerleader you know be happy and and encouraging to the readers about the things tech can do but not be a cheerleader for this company or that country or that company so need to end it I just want to say I convinced Walt to do the podcast with me ages ago it has been just the ride of my life absolute honor to have you work at the verge do this show with me and I know last week you know that the code conference kara through what she called Walter Palooza and all the industry Titans got to say goodbye to you but I am very happy that the last thing you're doing with us is having an audience of consumers say goodbye to their your audience so thank you very much thanks for coming so differences you