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we're not really saying goodbye we're saying hello in Reverse this is first I'm Josh Topolsky i'm ross miller and this is first okay ya know that we practical over and over and over again you really enjoyed it this time I really did gave you what you were looking for it's a clear sign I haven't slept in two it's obvious that you are having problems anyhow this is a this is first it's our last verse first last that is it doesn't salute him I'll allow it this morning but ultimately not does that doesn't make any sense that's a clear sign you're all sorry it's our last first of CES this is a the show still going on yes but it's really starting to wind down a bit now tomorrow is the last official day of CES right it's also a half day really everyone still setting down as soon as they can if we attempted to do first tomorrow a forklift would would actually finally yes truly drive through the set it wouldn't it would no longer be a joke video your doctor we've been talking about that it sounds like forklifts are going to drive to the seven it would actually happy happening cuz they be deconstructed but there's still stuff talking about em we we actually have a special guest today Paul pew from frog design you guys probably know you if you don't know frog design by name you know frog design because they are responsible for some of the most infamous all right it's name is designed in hardware and some really great software as well stuff like the next cube the Apple Snow White designs anyhow we're gonna be talking about design where it's going where it's gonna be going in the next few years and so that should be interesting and he's also very close to me right now and I'm is this cool this is an intro working for you okay good you're 50 says but first let's get to the head loss spread lies but first we've had some headlines Ross right so I've jam into it a lot of the big news this week are live in news today rather I did not come from CS directly today Microsoft or yesterday rather microsoft announced illumiroom it's a project they're working on with our good friend Andy Wilson bloomer illumiroom not illumiroom not a loop is I when I for somebody first said this to me i thought it was related to the Lumia but it's not know this out this is due all right so basically what they do is they have a kinect sensor that's detecting basically mapping out where your furniture is and from there it knows accurately how you can basically extend the screen vision with projector Wow beyond the television this is insane I've not seen this video yet I told people told me about it yesterday this is truly outrageous this is really awesome no it's just actual footage I mean I know they're doing some effect their but is none of this stuff that's not actual footage we're not we're not until I sure yet they say this is actual footage or really close to what its gonna be like I'm sorry I have to leave I've got to go they found me my people need me well that were that or I'm a hero okay the hero or the villain doors our victim the clay out there something looks like completely insane yes detective so yeah our good friend andy wilson who on the verge did a lot of crazy projector stuff clearly he's still done we saw any wilson he was projecting onto my back and now he's projecting I directly into my world yes that doesn't uh anyway we don't we don't know how accurate this video is just yet yeah they're not showing it off here they just wanted to announce it here is this do you think this could be new new xbox stuff like this is like a new you know you saw connected now we've got this next thing that is part of the next Xbox experience it is and it isn't what I'm interested in if it's actually sitting to the screen the Kinect sensors gonna have to be behind you looking at the TV is that where it is it's it's behind you know they have a connect in the living I thought it's a connect facing forward and then you've got the projector behind you right but how is the how is the kinect mapping the room that I can't see um you know it's just really good it's just that it has it got it finally got a google maps app anyway we won't over sure we will find out in April they're doing a conference in Paris one person laughter that okay yeah we have a what else okay know what else this is entirely not really to see us but I had to talk about it arrested development is coming back all 49 we do is coming back we knew was coming back now we know how many episodes in exists that women yeah and we know that just like they did with the other series it's all coming back at one time yeah so Mitchell whore away the entire thing all at once every so i can literally just sit down for on a saturday and just jam through it yeah the day comes out oh my god everything so this is gonna be netflix is going to go down again what's gonna happen it's gonna be like christmas the exact moment no everybody's gonna hit play and then they'll realize what they've made a terrible mistake no it's interesting because the you know we talked about how TV is very good credit for that huh uh I'm just moving on uh isn't cuz we talked about how like um oh yeah no no I don't think it'd take me okay I don't know I I don't want to hurt your finger point all right fourteen episodes um there's something of a chronology to it but mitchell hurwitz said a press tour it doesn't have you watched an order there's not so much consistency the only character that's in every episode is Jason Bateman's character otherwise they're kind of self-contained with a little bit of order if you want to watch them that way see that makes me worried really that makes me feel like they did something I don't know geared for for budgetary reasons or don't think budget wasn't concerned netflix have been pushing appointing a lot of money from a not maybe they were gonna make a movie or they not making the movie I don't think they're making the movie unless they're not talking about i think they basically took the movie concept be put in till I got arrested well is that it was you know it had a fairly good balance of serialized in episodic you know there was a story right and that evolved there's a story that of all I'm worried that you know I would expect in the next season that you would get to see the evolution and maybe the conclusion of some of those storylines maybe I'm putting it maybe I invested too much in the narrative I think your recipe oh this isn't lost anything I just want to know like I don't know what does it have smoke monster which ultimately in the hatch it's I think I know sirs I know there was stuff there but I think there's something else that we didn't see it I need to know what it is it's an illusion I am tired that I was I'm so sorry so water so you're very excited about that why I'm enjoying that give me one thing anyway the last story of the day is Hulu and this comes from you actually this comes your supersession lazy through this argue the future to return of the future yeah so you talked to by the way so we did we did a super session yesterday with Andy for cell from hulu eric chang from Lytro walt mossberg and neil i was on it and me so 33 angry journalists and two poor guys who had to talk to them and it was actually really interested it was called argue the future to return of the future but for some reason right before we went on i was convinced it was our subtitles revenge of the future which i think is actually better i got her name now that i think of it i believe i pitched the name revenge of the future and everybody shot me down so you had you an actual george lucas moment cuz it's like a return attended exactly I know I now know exactly how George Lucas feels in every conceivable way except the part where he's filthy stinking rich and can own no no that large chunk of san francisco and i also have known you felt i also have a large ranch where i produced films and in cool of graphics that's nice anyway let's get to the story uh so you talked to andy forssell he's a senior vice president of hulu is e the possible future president of hulu I mean that's the that's the there's a rumor going rumor that I mean he's got a he's got a CEO swagger certainly you know he's got I mean he's a really smart guy I need that he's making announcements that you would think a president would make he was basically saying we're we as a company i'm reducing the number of ads this was actually surprised we started talking about it and i think i mentioned it i made some joke about while I pay for service and i also get ads and then Walt said and you know I more ads lately and I and I would agree one hundred percent in fact i recently timed the ads and it was almost the same amount of ads that you would get on a standard viewing of a show on television right which would be you know then it's like well why don't i just DVR you know some of these things that have watch on it what I mean like you don't think of course there's but but so the heat said we actually we added ads and we've reduced them in January based on user feedback right which is uh you know new was news to me yeah and they also said later that they're gonna gradually reduce them more even more in the coming months yeah so there should be one at just be a six-minute out and it's gonna be actually during the the show so next time you try to watch I don't know Project Runway oh no that's actually a giant ad anyway I don't know what is what if what if you'll watch the 30 rock 30 rock yeah before that goes off there it's gonna be one in ten outside Detroit sis is not leaving Laura but seven Neil parks and recreation all right that's right anyhow but I thought that was interesting are you gonna throw that it's somebody yeah I thought that was really interesting point and we actually have we have a clip we have a clip and when we're done correct me if I'm wrong but when we're done with the clip Paul pew will be sitting here I will materialize you're going to be you're gonna be materialized only team and he's going to materialize and we'll be talking to him about where design is headed which I'm excited about but but take a look at this and we will be right back the TV looks better than it has ever looked before there is there are more channels than ever do consumer our consumers actually I know we talked about cord cutters and that's a thing and I think you talked to Ari Emanuel and he he said there aren't cord cutters and you use no but here's here's that if I could just anticipate what I think you shouldn't go everywhere I think I think there are cord cutters here's one I think there are fewer of them then we might have expected for five years ago because because the cable companies have been good at holding on to what they have yeah they've been good at holding on to it and I think this whole rights world Danny was talking about has hurt the efforts to do better more integrated over the top services that make the TV more attractive and easier to use and all that kind of stuff but I think there's something that this is what I was talking to Ari Emanuel about or trying to talk to him about which was there something called cable Nevers right and this is the most dangerous thing if I'm Brian Roberts Brian Roberts that being the head of calm yes I have I have two sons who were once married ones not there they're both around 30 my youngest son would go without food before he wouldn't have internet right he has to have internet but he would never go without anything to buy a cable subscription he doesn't have a cable his entire case he never would and he never will and I think that that cord Nevers combined with even the people who buy the cable thinking to themselves this is secondary to what I see on the internet or where I get distributed online that is the biggest danger of the cable entry and I think that's why they're gonna be pushed to make but luckily do you love you Lee that you see more kind of like deal flow because they know I mean that would be well I guess I'd say I think the cable satellite telco are having to pay more close attention to consumers than ever before and that's a good thing I mean they're you eyes are slowly getting better too slow but but slowly they're better if you if you look three or four years ago they're wildly better it's still not enough I think I think they're worried about that and I think they're they know they're gonna have to do some repackaging but they look at multi-channel subs and they've hung in around 100 million homes and it wavers a little bit but it hasn't hasn't dropped so they're all looking at the cord Nevers they're all doing a bunch of research but so far it hasn't hit the bottom line and I don't think they're going to anticipate that and start doing things differently so i think it's gonna be slow our guest today is a guy that I've actually want to talk to you for a while we traded some emails uh he's he works it to frog he is the hang on a second a VP of creative software innovation is that right that's something around there welcome Paul Pia thanks for coming to the show rabun appreciate you being up this early oh yeah because it's it it's happening to bed early dude do you normally get up early early early early riser yeah yeah so so frog I mentioned this in the in the in the intro but frog has been a company that historically has just created some of the most innovative and interesting designs I think I think frog is really best on I mean you're a software guy but when you think a frog you do think of the hardware stuff Apple to see Mac to next cube the snow white design language which I think we have some images of if you guys haven't seen these you definitely should yeah here's some of these are some rototiller putte types of a phone here way before the iphone obviously these are and these are designed by a heart been a singer that's right yeah and this stuff we actually just ran some of these photos these are prototypes these are obviously never came to to the market but just some really out there design me even now I mean these are from when the eighties right even now you look at you think this is just wildly inventive but you also worked on the nokia n9 that's right for i worked on the n9 i think we got a few shots of that as well and more recently there it is and more recently the sharp feel feel you act that's right now we actually did a big piece of this is only in Japan but it's a fully skin full of full skin for Android that's right guys pretty much touched everything here so you know actually I let's talk about that for a second what is your take on I mean obviously you're familiar with with the stock or Android interface which I think has gotten pretty good ya know pretty greedy i think it's i think it's really good now i mean the question i was always like why why you go down this road like why would om decide to customize it i think that it's very difficult to distinguish your handset in this market if you go to the floor at the show it's just overwhelming you know how did how many handsets there are how little differentiation there is we know they're all slapped essentially I mean do you think that consumers and maybe it's different Japan and I certainly can't speak for the japanese market but i do you feel consumers go into a store and they look at the the five android phones and they do they are looking for the software difference between them no well a couple of these it's not five it's like 15 right okay even like you go to 18 tea store or verizon store there's a lot of handsets and they're all kind of like shiny black hardware and you know the like when you when you touch them you're like that this experiences are pretty similar right so like what's you know if you either can compete on price or you can present up something that's a unique experience to them and and so like I think android it meets you know most of those needs but there are still needs that users have we did research that found you know that there was opportunity to really do more with the lock screen for example right and the users would you know like respond to that they connect to that those features and then hopefully they decide to buy that phone based on that and and it's not so much about you know like what Android wasn't doing from a platform strategy or google strategy just really trying to find those things that users are going to see the say you know i want that right i'd be really enthused around that having that on my mama device I Android is still not nearly as approachable something like iOS I think there is that for a consumer there is that barrier right where you just don't know everything that it does or you don't know how to get it to do everything you want it to do you know and and so that makes sense to you I just think it's a balance king Pope sorry guys gonna say there's kind of an interesting intersection I think with that moment where we're with Android it's still you know like it's it's still difficult to distinguish the handsets and I think also both the operators and the device manufacturers are really looking for opportunities to to be able to shape that a no more that customer experience so you see these new platforms emerging like Tizen and abou two and Mozilla OS and and some excuse me Firefox OS x Mozilla that to actually be more catered towards that direction right any future do you think you know and I know that you're focused on software but is there a lacked as a seem like you know maybe some of the software differentiation is coming because there is no real Hardware differentiation I mean it feels like everybody kind of pulling the same parts off of a line somewhere and with their slight tweaks right you know like I think the cycle I mean it's sort of like you can look at the the Android system versus the iOS system we mean the Iowa system kind of is normalized and their innovation cycle we got a cadence that you can almost predict the way it's going to work out you know the name the way they named the devices and why not on Android it's you know like it's it's the cycle is so much shorter and that differentiation is you know so much more difficult because of that it's a very more reactionary and so I think that on the software side you know there'll be it's always going to be a balance probably some handsets it will get further ahead with customization and they'll they may pay for that to some degree because they'll have to there now to some degree committed to that model and you know like going back and forth is the challenge I think so I said I hate to cut you off i do i think what you talk about this too or whatever but we're at i did we only have a few moments but we're at CES and we are surrounded by these you know people making attempts at new user experiences you know we just saw this this new microsoft thing which is obviously this very immersive experience for a user you've got all these new UI UX ideas voice control and motion sense and we saw a bunch of that stuff last year on TVs where is this headed I mean obviously we're now starting to get into the the era of touch as a real part of our computing lives and in fact probably the almost all of the future of our at least the main in a focal point right for computing and interaction so what what else is that what's coming up next I mean what is you know you're obviously here looking at what all these people are doing does anybody getting it right is what I said anything's gonna actually yeah I mean I think you know like I was looking at the samsung voice control TVs and yeah like I think it's we're making progress I mean it's still really hard you know like I think that these technologies are they're very nascent in their in their very immature but they're rapidly evolving but i think it's when we bring them together then I think they're gonna be a lot stronger a voice on its own is is solve some types of interaction issues but when you add in gestures with it it is actually much more powerful so like the sort of a layered interaction model is what we call it for the you know the right voice control or the right natural interface at the right moment I is is where I think it's going to be successful also just that the devices are working together in a much more holistic way and so it's not you're not just dependent on on a single device to make all those things work but that they're the devices are much more aware and and able to respond to each other so I'm looking at how the environments are around a mobile device are actually going to start to respond to that device and how much of that is is the ideas you know happening and how much of it is our sensors and our software the actual hardware what can actually do getting better I mean is this is it just a perfect storm right now or or is it is it that you know we didn't just simply couldn't do this stuff I think we simply couldn't do that's do a lot of this stuff until just recently and I mean I still think that a lot of the things that we are imagining that we want to do are still a few generations of both processor battery life and things like that still affect what what we imagine that will want to be able to do with it so but you know like the ideas here you know like you start to see them you like to start to imagine how they can be sort of brought together and I mean that's sort of like the CSS of two to three years out hope you know that we're starting rise to the roots of you know like the big you know the big story here is like definitely the 4k TVs and the gigantic TVs I think even saw something in ktv like you of course they have to have a date yeah the 16k you know like it but like that stuff will start to normalize and like we'll we'll be able to sort of bend those big displays to do new things when the price comes down and that's to me that's really exciting so so I really only have time for one more question this one is kind of I don't know it's a sort of a rest for you on the spot no it's not a resident but what is there something you think out of all the stuff that we're seeing out of just the stuff that you may be that you're working on earth Inca God is there one trend or type of interaction or type of interface that we're going to see that you think will rise above the rest oh no because I think that I don't think there's one I mean because it's all about context so like what what interface is working at that moment may not work at the next time with your driving vs. walking it's a completely different experience but you know like I there's all those things like there's a you know I tracking that's a you know like really interesting to me as a way to get to be able to serve the right type of information there's some interesting things happening in the automotive space around eye tracking like to that help with safety but you but like when the like I said when the environments become more aware of what they're expecting us to do they think the interactions are going to be pretty amazing so right alright well thank you so much for joining us really really appreciate it and we've got you'll want to check this out I think you'll enjoy it we've got some video David and Ross went to the show floor to see to kind of give you guys a look at what happens when you start getting really really tired at CES and worn down and delusional so check it out let me see us as if he does this is only three actually that's my third or fourth to I didn't need to make a loop around central hall every 15 feet is a trash my god there's nobody be able I don't like it what is what I've never heard of heights what does hi sins do ro you're lost I literally never been more lost my entire life whoa holy look at that TV with the glasses on that's bananas what's the last time you remember the outside world weeks ago like July I think I legitimately thought yesterday was Sunday all day and then looked at my calendar as I wait it's Tuesday oh easel this is crazy town I want this so bad I'm literally wearing through the bottom of my shoes God this booth is enormous washing machine or bust now Furillo this is our best chance to see like a washing machine what no no this is not okay what is going on this is hurting my brain it's 220 watch as people know what we look like we look like two men who are deeply in love with each other I'm actually happy here this is like my happy face I mean you can really tell it starts to wear where are you down emotionally that's a I'm not shocking look into into the mind of a CES journalist yeah I'm not proud but I wouldn't have it any other way yeah no I like that I like that a lot and I'm glad that you guys finally got to you know really express yourselves on the show we definitely fell asleep a few times filming that really just like we were to sit down and just stare something I like cuz we're just filming shots like just stare yeah stare at the sky playing guitar start this couch cat Sarah this fake dog yeah uh and they're doing these back shots not just like you're already tired I I litter already exact they'll sleep standing up at least three times yesterday that's insane um so this is our I just want to say you know we gotta wrap up here but this is our and this is our final first of CES yes uh but what an incredible uh what incredible four days it's been it's feels like we've been I have to say the show's really matured I remember when we first had down here it seems like only yesterday and in fact it was the only four days ago and technically if you think of all three days has just been one day it's one long it's been one long sleepless day yes but uh really pretty crazy and we've done do you know many videos we've done at CES hundreds at this point yeah it's been hundreds all right yeah I mean that's the sheer volume I didn't say everybody who's working on the video team and putting this stuff together is insane because i don't know i mean we were we left last night late and the video guys were sitting there just heads down editing we did have this great argument about how the long videos it takes a little so long to do anything in video because you got a process and edit and there's so many pieces so i think it's been incredible and I really I'm glad that we've had some you know ton of people watching absolutely and and I've really enjoyed it i want to say I've enjoyed my time uh with you as a co-host arco are co-hosting has been really special I'm really gonna miss you Josh I'm gonna miss you yeah because this is it's been a good run no that's it that was a bad shake can we get like it it's been a good runs I've been it's more like it is that we will just edit that impose any what to we'll just make that seemed like we had a smooth let's just let's just keep this going to keep your shelf later top shelf later today 90 on 90 merged cast after hours course I verge cast after hours and and uh that's it yeah first it did we still up