oh hello you're you're here welcome I
guess we should talk about phones
smartphones not so smart phones and
everything in between I promise you we
won't have any fire alarms going off
during today's taping all that and more
coming up on the verge mobile show I'm
dieter bohn I'm glad Sawa and I'm Chris
Diggler I would just like to say a
couple thing before I let you talk
what's up Peter uh first of all uh thank
god you're back because I didn't
absolutely terrible intro last week so
thank you for coming back and gracing us
with your presence secondly actually
know three things secondly thinking is
your life actually can I can I say point
five thing is this is the verge of all
show or we talk about mobile things it's
episode 5 for the week of june twenty
fifth I just want to but I was out there
yeah that's what I was trying to
interrupt I was trying to get checked
before you got that that T's are in um
the third thing is that I don't want to
cut my beard until Google releases or
excuse me until Samsung releases an
android 4.1 update for the galaxy s3 so
you are gonna end up I looking just like
Jim to ripple you were gonna have you're
gonna be your to be ZZ top up in this
action that sounds about accurate anyway
please continue I have nothing else to
continue with welcome I'm happy to be
back i'm sorry that i missed last week
what I was at the windows phone last
week that's that's why I missed right
yes yes yes I hope so yes that was a
shame it was it was a shindig of the
highest order like if I do say so myself
it was it was quite the shindig and you
know I got to look at Windows Phone 7.8
on a Lumia 900 myself or at least a
prototype version of 7.8 it might have
just been the home screen which i guess
is all 7.8 is but i'm guessing that you
guys talked 7.8 to death and you don't
need my
inside an opinion on 7.8 do I would love
to get your input on 7.8 actually
because I you know we had the the buyers
guide the smartphone buyers guide go up
last week and there's a lot of debate
internally before the guide went up on
whether we should be recommending the
Lumia 900 because of the fact that it
isn't getting eight point 0 and my
belief is that for the price that you're
getting it for answering the fact that
it's an LTE phone that you can use as a
hotspot still looks great especially in
cyan and the fact that it's getting some
point out 7.8 upgrade there's still a
value proposition there but I'm curious
to get your take on this no I agree I
think that um well I have two thoughts
on 7.8 the first one is Microsoft
deserves a ton of credit for coming out
and saying this isn't going to happen
they have been as clear as can be about
what their update roadmap is for various
phones and I mean if you think about the
fact that you just mentioned you know
you're waiting for samsung to put you
know 4.1 jelly bean on the galaxy s3 one
is Samsung going to announce whether or
not it's going to get jelly bean is
Google going to announce what phones are
going to get jelly bean in the Android
world you just literally have no idea
and you're scraping for rumors and
leaked real roms and blah blah blah
Microsoft just said it's not getting it
it's getting 7.8 instead and they
deserve a little bit of credit for that
as far as 7.8 itself and actually i
guess what we know of Windows Phone 8
i'm a huge fan of the Start screen I
think adding that smaller tile it sounds
really stupid but it makes a big
difference to me and it makes the
Windows Phone Start screen probably the
best power user start screen that you
can get on a smartphone it it reminds me
of what it was like back in the days of
Windows Mobile would I could cram a
million things on to my Start screen and
just know everything you know just from
looking you know and you know now that
you can actually have things that are
basically icons but they are a little up
live tile updates you can get much more
a single screen than you can on android
order especially on the iphone so from
that perspective i think that you know
lumia 800 and 900
should feel okay about just getting that
but from you know a larger perspective I
mean I go back to discussions we had a
long time ago you know why are they
releasing you know this flagship phone
when they knew that they weren't going
to give it you know the full big windows
phone update yeah that's just hard yeah
he wants me teaser there is no I want to
I want to say something about these live
tiles because I I do really like the
theory and concept of the live tiles on
Windows Phone the problem is that even
in 7.5 I find that they stopped updating
frequently is prom on Android to like it
a lot of Android widgets will just stop
updating and then you have to go into
the app and then the widget will
magically update then you go back to the
home screen and works for maybe another
day or two windows phone has the same
problem so I think that the value of the
windows phone 7.8 / 8 point 0 home
screen pivots almost entirely on
Microsoft's ability to get that straight
but um since we have decided to
completely deviate from our banter this
I might as well pictured on this and say
that the most appealing thing for me
with this 7.8 / a point 0 home screen
update is actually the customizability
of the size so yes you can have tiny
icons and you can have really big o
tires Radha you can have them tiny
midsize or large and that's just handy
you know because a lot of times I mean
with the current windows phone is just
pictures is a big tile calendar is a big
set whether you like it a lot whereas
you know seeing the demo of the windows
phone 7.8 home screen it shows that you
know customizability and something we
were also winching about was the fact
that it's quite a lot of disuse space on
the home screen there's a lot of black
space around those house whereas now you
can really as d through setting be a
power user and we load up your home
screen with the tile / widgets that sure
whatever thanks so that's handy but also
we thought if i can get back to the
discretion of wise nokia release it as a
service
possible to be honest there is an answer
in the answer is no kidneys or cell
phones and when you're trying to market
phones you can't market them in a half a
special need to go with both cheeks and
the weighted luck is doing that is the
BB a 900 is the new smartphone etc
that's what we discussed last week on
the podcast stash show it is a podcast
oh we released a show it's both i I'm
I'm leaning towards show but I think
it's both I think I think it qualifies
as both yeah I mean reverse I am like
that um and since in some building up to
this awesome segue I might as well
executed and say there is another device
that Nokia just recently release or
about release which also makes you
wonder and ask why is it being released
at all and that is the 808 PureView
which I pure incidents and accidents and
manage to review over this weekend and
boy is a crazy crazy phone yes so I mean
first of all I mean obviously we're
gonna spend the majority of the time
talking about the camera but can we talk
about the the state of symbian you know
I said in the intro we're going to talk
about not so smart phones it's not fair
to cry out a feature phone I guess but I
think it's totally it's it's a not so
smart phone that's that's what we should
be calling it I think somebody in
comments said okay you know I get that
symbian isn't a smartphone OS but it has
a lot of really good functions to it
he'd already know into the details of
what those functions are but maybe
calling this a function phone might be
you know the diplomatic thing we're all
sides of the coin are satisfied because
of the one hand there's the guys who
appreciate applications the guys who
appreciate the response of user
experience the guys who appreciate
having a browser on the phone they won't
accept the 808 PPP called a smartphone
and on the other hand you have guys who
loves Indian in some irrational passion
um so you know to please everyone it's a
fun going phone look III would put up
same
against any proprietary feature phone
platform on the market today and I would
take symbian hands down that that
includes Nokia's on s40 but but to your
point flat I mean you put it up against
any legitimate smartphone platform uh we
you know it name one could be iOS could
be Android could be windows phone could
be webos could be any of these things
and it just fail it falls flat on its
face well is that somebody said were
friday's words that is worse and samsung
also tries to pitch bad as a smartphone
platform but honestly i don't case is
it's kind of like picking between free
three-day good horses it's just ah i
mean this is the thing with the 808 they
just said we've spent a lot of time
talking about the camera I don't know
that will I mean it's very very simple
the camera is just flat out amazing it's
the best camera you've ever seen on the
phone and I don't even see the point in
buying a point issue compared to this
like most point of shoot cameras don't
have that much of a bigger sensor then
you get in this phone they don't get the
opportunity or the option for you to
take 13 megapixel photo which are
actually good like this is the finish
shocked me but it is a 38 megapixels
located closer to creative mode when you
take those pictures but they're actually
good like my comparison is that at full
resolution to the HTC One X at eight
megapixel resolution it's just as good
and sometimes even better like this is
how much of a gap you have like the 808
PureView records how many is it nearly
five times as much information nearly
five times the megapixels is a 1x at the
same level quality or higher whereas the
5 megapixels date away just post
everything else out of the way so that
part is a given I have to say taking a
13 megapixel photos was just thrilling
to me because it's just browsing them I
like loading them up when you're look on
your laptop or your computer and seeing
your computer struggle and you know you
click on the one hundred percent zoom
and then you know you're gonna have to
wait for like three seconds the two
computers like okay
okay I'm still zooming I'm still getting
to the point where I'm at a hundred
percent I mean it's just amazing and
it's like no other phone in recent
memory has like threw me in this fashion
so it is truly a unique phone and so if
I mean I were if I were somebody and I
if I were somebody I were human and I
told you I don't care about having a
smartphone as long as it can make calls
and do texts every now and then that's
enough for me I care if nothing else
except for the camera I want the most
amazing camera possible would you tell
this person that the 808 is legitimate
option or would you tell them to run
screaming for the hills because even
even then the camera isn't the dealing
with the phone isn't worth this camera
oh I would say yes but then they would
need to justify paying the price because
I don't even rice is logical and also
that person doesn't exist like there is
no human being in the world that says I
want I just wanna be able to make phones
or phone calls and Tecna sent text
messages and also I want to be able to
take the most amazing photos on the
planet with the same device I don't
think that person is is real if they are
like right well and actually have them
on the show as a guest Inza think Chris
his ring I mean we we get devices like
the blackberry porsche design which is
way way over priced and ultimately isn't
even better design than anything else on
the market it's just kind of gaudiya you
know so you're not actually buying
anything extra whereas I do appreciate
getting a unique device which is also
technically and technologically better
than everything else and stands out in a
technological in a real way even though
I soo considered completely over price
because jesus said it has two functions
really well phone calls and pictures and
I mean give it credit for its phone
calls and also for nokia is designed
like yes it has a massive huge bump on
the back because that's how big the
sensor needs to be its physical
limitation you can't get away from but
physically is well designed it feels you
know really strong and durable and it's
the back of it is molded really nicely
so it fits in your hand
though spits up heavy around the camera
and has a great piece and a great loud
speakers or the sound is great phone
calls also pretty great you know in my
sleep in CW go ahead here speaking of
sound uh what's the deal with the
headphones they only work with the
bundled headphones isn't a standard 3.5
jack it is it is embo I don't understand
it myself I mean Nokia's marketing says
that you get some special Dolby surround
sound yeah they are the other
optimizations but and also let's clarify
you can stick in a regular set of
headphones and their work its third
party headsets you know with a lion a
bit of micro in the lion like something
like this they don't work which is just
kind of annoying because i have about 20
of those but at the same time look his
own headset works and it's actually
really decent one satisfy the the
problem with the 808 I i think is
indicative of everything virtually
everything goes wrong with nokia and
it's the exact same situation we saw
with n9 where they make this one off
device that really sort of puts a puts a
product to the immense engineering and
design talent that the company actually
has and then then it just sort of
vanishes into thin air the only hope we
have with the 808 is that you know
presumably this technology and we've
heard this going all the way back to mwc
presumably this technology it's gonna
find its way into wp8 can't believe I
just said wp8 is that even fewer
syllables in Windows Phone 8 I don't
know it we can only hope this technology
is going to find its way into windows
phone 8 devices because it and I said
this on Twitter yesterday I really truly
believe that this camera and an
attractive windows phone 8 body from
Nokia could be a very compelling product
of course at the end of the day it still
comes down to marketing and what
carriers pick it up but that could be a
think the closest thing to a
game-changing product that Nokia's had
in a very long time yeah okay so any
what about this what about this camera
in a not so attractive big and bulky
Windows Phone device I mean
I'm sure this thing has been in
development for a long time and and
maybe windows phone 7 7.5 just can't
handle the camera and they need to you
know dedicate more hardware to it in
order to make it work that Windows Phone
just doesn't support but if this phone
were running windows phone 7.5 in this
hardware I don't think it would blow
anybody away but I think it'd be making
a much bigger impact than it is yes yes
now that does absolutely give it and the
other side of the coin with the 808 is
the fact that again symbian just has
issues stacked on top of issues it you
know it's never been good on a
touchscreen and people have accused me
of hating it is absolutely true I do
hate symbian on sunscreen because it's
terrible it is simply as simple as that
i calling any punches I can't put it any
other way it sucks this is why I hate it
if you think there's some irrational
reason why i hate this piece of software
like i don't know my girlfriend cheated
on me with symbian i I don't understand
it like why do people think why do
people think that I love Cindy or any
other reason than the fact it sucks like
I'm a selfish person I want to use the
best software so if it was symbian I've
got no problem with that I would use it
on a daily basis but the fact is it's
not it's terrible like obviously the
browser just does not work on this thing
and everybody is like you know you
should use opera opera mini or whatever
that's not the point at all and
everybody without exception who is so me
you know gives symbian and Charles has
told me use the gravity Twitter
application and it's just so sad because
this is the whole ecosystem for this
platform use the gravity two it's Iraq
that's the only thing people have left
click to clutch holder if there's
nothing left and the other thing is the
gravity app costs eight pounds in the UK
it's a Twitter client I you you you have
I don't know 27 Twitter clients or
Android all of them free iOS same
situation even windows phone has
multiple really good free versions of
Twitter clients and they asking you to
pay eight pounds for these and one on
Sembia well the good news is you have to
spending any of those eight pounds on
any other apps so you might as well
yesterday you know what's really sad to
me is that the nokia s60 browser was a
pioneering browser was the first webkit
browser for smartphones and in the n95
days it was really good and did amazing
things that no other mobile browser did
and the promise that it's effectively
not I mean it has evolved since then but
the the fundamentals and of course the
platform in which it's running remain
the same and that's that's a big problem
let me ask you something blad do you
still get out of many out of memory
messages on this device because for ages
that was this like long-running joke it
was almost like no key was trolling the
world like you'd buy a new s60 device
and without fail after loading one or
two or three apps you'd get this out of
out of RAM message I can't remove the
exact verbiage but anyone who's ever
used net 60 device knows exactly i'm
talking about is this still a problem
with 808 rather they finally fix that no
i never encountered that too but at the
same time the thing i need to mention is
there i never got up to that source that
you know speed where i'm running
multiple applications and i'm
multitasking and I'm doing my symbian
thing because it it just discourages you
from doing anything um it's not so much
like lag the way you might have seen in
previous versions of Android where
everything is kind of chunky but it's
just really consistent little delays and
loads like you open up an application
loading animation uh you get into your
picture gallery loading animation you
put anything you I mean literally
anything you do there's some little
loading thing and it's just stuff this
start stop and start all the time and
and then and by the end of it you kind
of like you know I'd rather just not see
if this app is interesting to me because
I'm tired of seeing that freaking you
know loading circle it just I also
noticed interests you I almost feel like
Nokia should have stripped the GSM radio
out of it left in the Wi-Fi and
Bluetooth and sold it for 449 as the
world's smartest point-and-shoot camera
yeah but you know the free to radio is
good the treachery tia is good I mean I
do feel like no keys look it could have
been a lot more aggressive and bold with
this because okay first of all the price
in the USA is 699 unlocked the price in
the UK is 499 unlocked in the UK is june
thirtieth in the u.s. fhg i ate that you
can get this phone again the price
doesn't make sense so what would you
have had to lose if you decided to just
go completely bonkers with your
promotion for this or the way you pitch
it to people and my idea is its first of
all nakia should have said forget the
photo 1 megapixel number entirely like
that's just a geek number because you
can't take photo I'll megapixel photos
so just say this is a camera it takes 30
8 megapixel photos and if he stepped
down to lower resolution you get the
highest image quality I've seen on phone
that is a sales pitch to people can
understand but it's the way knock is
done it is this 41 megapixels 38-35 85
and five and two big pixels there's just
too many numbers people don't understand
it and I see 41 and they say I it's a
gimmick did they don't get the sales
pitch another thing knock it is
necessarily conveyed the idea of how
amazing the image quality is either so
start off with that call it 30 8
megapixel camera and then just pitch it
as a phone with a camera like I mean
obviously just sell it as a feature
phone like cut cut the whole Nokia Store
cut all that nonsense um I mean uh I
mean look your answers just don't ship
it would simple like it is Rachel try to
work around it don't ship it with
Cynthia that's exactly it here's my
concern is that Nokia is going to draw a
bunch of new customers in with this
product because they'll be intrigued by
the photography capabilities they're
going to be shocked and dismayed by how
bad the software experiences and the
lack of a third-party ecosystem then
when it comes time to ship to finally
ship this technology on a product that
matters ie a windows phone 8 device
those people are gonna pull a you know
fool me once shame on you fool me twice
shame on me they're not going to buy
another nokia product
yeah I mean and this is the same issue
that Nucky is facing with the Lumias
into factor then they'll be an upgrade
to Windows Phone 8 because mmm it
pitched him so hard to people young
people people but I rightly or wrongly
they feel hard done by Nokia because
they would have just bought a Lumia 900
but recently maybe as you saying Chris
now with people knowing the future of
the Lumia 900 they can go into it with
their eyes open maybe it still value
getting that phone but at least they
know what they're getting into cells in
for whereas a month back it was nokia
microsoft this is the best smartphone
you can get and you know maybe in their
world it was um but you know people
people feel a little hard done on that
front right so yeah I just feel here is
that Nokia can't break this narrative
that it's been in for a long time now of
you know every company has a narrative
so like rooms narrative is like oh
here's another blackberry it's not what
it should be it's good for business
users I guess I've apples narrative is
oh it's an iphone it's the best thing
ever and androids is fragmentation I
guess but no kisses is nokia back can
dokie make a comeback this next thing is
no heater I can come back probably not
but they've been at a hard times this is
more interesting the last thing that
they had and this doesn't break that
narrative it's it's interesting but
nobody thinks it's going to be there
come back and and so like it doesn't
move the narrative for what the company
is when people think of it forward
enough it you know it shows that they've
got some chops to do interesting
technology but you know that's not a
consumer product strategy that's a you
know that's a tech preview now right no
it does exactly it is also something
that reminded me when you are asking
what if this shipped with windows phone
seven or 7.5 and I don't believe what
does phone 7 has support with 1080p
video recording yet which might have
been one of the big obstacles yeah no I
think that they should have held your
view and shipped it on on Windows Phone
8 I I think that they would have been
better served to keep this technology
under the covers until they were able to
ship it on on a platform
mattered Dennis said that I just think
that this 808 is is not serving them at
all well yeah that much is true but then
there's also the rumor that I don't know
where I heard it from but that windows
the windows phone 8 version of peer
review will still use the same
technology they're still over sample
take a whole bunch of pixels and create
one super pixel and that kind of thing
but use a smaller sensor and it's grated
as you were saying crease into a more
attractive design phone because the 808
as much as you might like it as a crazy
geek device is not a mainstream device
because it's it's nearly 40 millimeters
thick that's well over half an inch I
believe yeah that just needs yeah it's
huge teach that's like that's as thick
as some QWERTY devices I think qwerty
sliders dude I lift it up no I yeah okay
way back in two thousand seven when this
phone was starting to be designed there
were thicker sliders on the market no
sale mm-hmm but this is issue like if
Nokia takes five years to bring
technology like this to market the
original dimensions that he was working
with just don't exist anymore like the
rest of the market moves along and then
you kind of stuck with this the design
which is awesome ince great technology
but it just doesn't fit in the modern
economics so maybe that's happening
maybe now no case shrinking it down to
model design well so here's my question
does that mean that Nokia is right now
starting work on a 400 megapixel sensor
the dell debut in 2017 running on a
symbian OS yeah running running on
symbian uh but what would the name be by
then it would be like an effigy name
probably Francine symbian Francine this
hurts you even thinking about that just
hurts me nicely I have nothing odd about
that yet my thoughts on the 808 I mean I
think we just keep going about it but
like I can't have a commission your type
of performance earlier is the is
the poor performance of the rest of the
phone OS reflected in the camera or does
a camera launch fast and uber shot fine
you're not you're not waiting around to
shoot pictures are you know and there's
a processing delay understandable one
when you shoot a 13 megapixel photos
it's about second of a second but beyond
that the gallery in the camera
applications are clearly really really
well optimized so you there's no
complaints about it pinterest even those
applications works brilliantly posting
works very well at the only thing I
notice is that video can have little
freeze frames where the post it just
isn't handling all that information
because during video you've got 16
pixels or rather the camera read 16
pixels to create one so you're looking
at a 41 megapixel image and then I guess
shrunken down to a 1080p resolution so
there's a ton of processing happening
during video I mean I'm I'm amazed and
impressed that Nucky can do it with a
single core one point for us broke so I
mean on the software side the photo
camera nokia is on a really good job so
it does show that nokia can do good
software it's just not symbian and that
that's a great bottom line and we can
move on to something else now well
speaking of phones that are too thick
and running and antiquated OS ah we took
I took a quick look at the Sony Xperia
ion over the weekend well I actually had
a quite a bit longer and so it's on 18t
its LTE it's 99 bucks on contract and it
just is like totally I don't even know
what to say it's it's running android
2.3 there i've done like that's it it's
it's not running android 4.0 that's
completely ridiculous it has a
quote-unquote 12 megapixel camera which
in my experience with it was very very
noisy and grainy and you know it's
pretty thick i think it's point for six
inches you know which is thicker than
the other LTE phones out there it's like
it has a great screen point six inches
in the thickness data but point
five or six excuse me point four shows
that although if it were 4.6 that would
be pretty amazing right that was easily
go over stuff like that designed is it
looking at it and feeling it's like oh
this is meant to be a flagship phone
this is meant to be a top-tier
smartphone but it's not it's nowhere
near top to your smartphone when you
compare it to the 1x or the galaxy s3 so
it's you know it's an xperia so you know
that it got released eight months later
than sony meant to release it and so you
know how they got it out on time this
could have been you know a really hit
flagship phone because you know it's a I
gave it a pretty low score for design
because the buttons are really hard to
hit and it's pretty thick but you know
it looks cool it's got this aluminum
back it could have been a contender but
it's just too late I I think we first
mentioned this back at CES but I'm dying
to know i wish i was a fly on the wall
for the discussion at eighteen t
headquarters where they said well so
he's pitching us this really awesome
looking Xperia S but we'd like to dumb
it down a bit and make it look like hot
garbage is that that's that's harsh it
doesn't look like hot garbage but it
looks like a completely anonymous black
slate just like every other smartphone
on the market these days they had an
opportunity to have a differentiated
product and I don't understand a why
AT&T went that route why they didn't
just launched the Xperia S & B why Sony
didn't push back and said hey the design
that you're pitching or the design that
you want looks looks like trash compared
to what we're pitching which is the
Xperia S because really this is just a
localized version of the of the Xperia S
is it not well yeah so does he there's
no there's no region that's on the
Xperia S with LTE is there right yeah as
far as I know there's not so I mean
here's my sense it's also running the s3
process or not the s4 processor that the
other LTE phones out there are running
so like my genuine belief is this thing
was designed like a year ago like well
18t says it's got to have LTE and at the
time you like well nobody knows how to
do LTE in a thin hot phone like the
Xperia S so we can chunk it up like this
and 18t said sure go for it and then you
know a year later they finally get
around to releasing the thing
I mean to be clear in between the time
we first saw this at CES both HTC and
samsung announced and shipped phones
they're way better than this yeah yeah
now it's a big issue in them the thing
that I've noticed with Sony previously
sony ericsson is that they do do it up
to have the biggest flagship phones
introduced around CES or mwc so to your
point is it does look like this device
along with the experience was being
designed in the latter half of last year
but you know when you're working up to
see yes the idea of thing is to then
release like two weeks out to sea es not
yeah my mom's why didn't they learn
their local it was all a ton of these if
they had managed to pull that off yes
absolutely that I have no idea this has
been happening for years and years and
years with this goes back to the to the
days when like we were waiting for the
n95 dash three or no the n95 eight gig i
think was it was announced in or no no
no no that the sony the sony ericsson x1
i believe this one now the is the one
there was a photo that was like the
first xperia to write it was running
windows mon yeah and we waited forever
for it it had this insanely awesome
looking metal design it was a really
great slider the keyboard yeah but you
know we waited forever it was super
expensive they've finally got Carrie
relationships I finally brought the
price down but it's still just too late
yeah I mean it took him so long to bring
it to market I have no idea why they
haven't learned their lesson and and if
the carrier gets in their way they
should they should be pulling the Prada
mean Sony isn't making any money in the
u.s. off phones right now anyway so so
stop being Precious about about
maintaining these relationships either
ship it or don't but don't don't wait
people don't make people wait for six
months it's it's just terrible well see
my question is is you know we're talking
about this like like it was an
intentional strategic decision but my
sense is that they just can't execute
they just couldn't get it done in time
and out the door in time and that the
problem with Sony making phones is
they're just not as fast as they need to
be and and I think that they don't have
yeah I I think that it takes very
particular people with very particular
skills and talents to maintain a
successful relationship with the carrier
in the US and I don't think that Sony
has those relationships HTC has worked
very hard over the past decade to build
those relationships and of course
Samsung has those relationships Sony is
not showing any evidence that they have
those well Sony's also not coming from a
position of strength in the u.s. I mean
you can look at HTC's relationships
they're you know they're very friendly
with the carrier's they you know they've
got the evo line with sprint and they'll
change things up for the carrier's when
they need to you know they you know they
unified stuff a bit with the one line
but there's still you know giving the
carries a little bit of what they want
Samsung's relationship with the
carrier's at this point in time it's
just one of like brute force that you
know they're not Apple but you know the
fact that they got the galaxy s3 out on
all four carriers with that Center home
button same design called the galaxy s3
like we've talked about this a half a
dozen times but like their relationship
is just raw power and right aneese
relationship is like I don't even know
how to how to describe it it's you know
they're just lucky to get in the door
and get phones released right now yeah
but that's really looking I just get
phones released the fact that the ion is
what they're putting out is really
troubling ya know I was going to say
exactly the same thing a decent just
said which is that even if sony has
really great negotiation staff on his
team and it has a really nice guys who
know how it's also carries if it doesn't
have any compelling hardware to pitch to
the carrier's what does any of it matter
it's absolutely true like if Sony had a
phone that every carrier says well
actually we need to have this on our
network I mean that's the galaxy s3 like
you're stuck if your AT&T and you start
demanding that you rebrand the galaxy is
free in some success will never forget
you guys who set up the others you know
you suck you have to have that phone I
mean we'll get we'll get around to the
galaxy s4 you later but just today some
analysts was saying that approximately
two million shipments were affected by
I assures you of components for the
galaxy s free like Samson come make pots
fast enough to appease the sales that is
making with this device it's that but
early indications is that it's beating
the galaxy s tues first couple of months
like that's insane right right but Vlad
I have to disagree with you i think that
the xperia s particularly around CES was
a very compelling looking device with
great specs and they should have been in
carriers faces like in in
august/september october of last year
saying hey guys sony is back wait you
know we're going with the sony branding
here's here's this really gorgeous sony
designed but even if they're lying about
it they can say with ya designed
in-house like it one sony that whole
message uh it check out this this
amazing phone though that were you know
that we want to get out to a to
consumers early next year they should
have been trying everything in their
power to build those relations that they
are doing what they need to do to me in
a successful relationship not just with
US carriers but with us consumers this
device isn't going to do it but theater
i do have to ask you at $99 would you
recommend this over the lumia 900 which
is the same price man that's a really
hard call I mean this thing is supposed
to get android 4.0 I don't recommend you
buy it on the assumption that that will
come in a timely fashion I think the
Lumia 900 is a much better looking
device it's just this is pretty here and
so I would probably I mean if you're I
would say no if you want Windows Phone
you know you're going to get a Lumia 900
but if you're interested in android you
should save up however long it takes you
to save up to get a 1x or galaxy s3
right it's fair advice and I mean it's
the same story that we were just how
about don't get like when is Sony going
to come back in the US they tried with
the xperia play on verizon let's not
forget about that thing and now this
this ion is uninspiring I you know we
all want to be inspired by Sony we all
remember when we were inspired by Sony
and we're just we're still waiting yep
we're not there yet
so I'm still using a one acts still it's
been like three weeks or a month I don't
know but Chris you abandoned me in my
one exodus and got a galaxy s3 well no
no I did so I am I just I accosted Josh
and David long enough and hard enough so
that they would send me uh the the
galaxy s3 review unit for AT&T is that
music wait a minute wait a minute no no
no no that is not cool I call dibs on
the AT&T review unit for galaxy s3 way
before I like I David I I called dibs I
put my finger on my nose whatever you
need to do in chat and he said hahaha
yeah okay it's yours and he sent it to
you anyway well I am so so here's the
thing i see how they're made fine no no
it's cool it's cool man there may have
been something lost in the communication
shame because by the time i asked for it
it was in josh's hands and i actually
went through Michael to get it uh who is
of course Josh's assistant so um uh I
don't know what to tell you beyond that
but uh let me try to smooth things over
by telling you that it is not much
better than the 1x you're not missing it
as much better I think that if I were
forced if somebody put a gun to my head
and said ranked the 1 X versus the
galaxy s3 I'm gonna blow your brains out
i would say uh the galaxy s3 ranks like
0.01 higher on the scale than the 1x
they're both absolutely terrific phones
best-in-class best you can get right now
for android um Josh would just agree
with me tell you the Galaxy Nexus is the
better device and it may very well be by
then this week we'll see what happens
with jelly bean but it yeah the the the
the galaxy s3 there are a few things
that I like about it one and dieter I
think that you kind of got a sense of
this at ctia and so did I that the skin
is less offensive than since
four-point-oh is um yeah it i would say
that's true yeah it does a better job of
of augmenting and enhancing
android 4.9 to fight it be the best way
to describe it i think and that's really
shocked that's a shocking thing for me
to say considering where TouchWiz has
been right if you go back to the galaxy
s2 it looked like complete garbage so
Samsung has really reinvented and
rethought TouchWiz on the native Android
for experience and I give him a lot of
credit for that the camera is far far
for our superior to the Galaxy Nexus and
arguably a little better than the 1x I'm
sure of lad will will agree with me on
that definitely um yes and and that the
materials that the the in in the in the
hand and when it's sitting on a table I
think that the phone looks better and
feels better than any photo that I've
seen of it when you look at a photo of
it looks like you know typical kind of
cheapish Samsung hardware and it still
is you you're not going to be fooled
into thinking that this is an apple
device or an HTC device or any other
kind of device it looks and feels like a
samsung but it's probably the best
looking and feeling Samsung that I can
remember the materials is it's a very
solid feeling device the plastic is of a
very high quality the biggest problem I
had with the hardware was that when I
first got the device it had the reviews
a minute and it was literally impossible
to eject it it the Samsung uses this
really stupid sim tray that's a it's a
push push spring-loaded tray so to get a
sim out you press down and it clicks and
then it pops out in theory right but in
practice you you press it and it just it
would stay and like it would it would it
would go down like a millimeter and then
spring back into place but would never
reject so I ended up having to
completely disassemble the phone it come
it comes apart into two pieces with like
eight or nine screws something like that
took the back plate off and then use
tweezers very very small tweezers to
sort of gently wiggle the sim until it
popped out without releasing the
mechanism and I did it without doing any
damage to the phone because when I put
my sim in it was fine but I think Chris
what the repair ability rating would you
give it then now that you've got the
whole sat down i I've never had to do an
iFixit style
repairability rating before but i would
rate it as good to very good and Emin
roger is one of our writers has taken
apart as gs2 and apparently i didn't
know this but apparently the gs2 is
pretty well known for being a very
disassembled if that's a word device I'm
pretty repairable and the gs3 looks to
follow in those footsteps so that's
that's an encouraging sign but but yeah
overall I would say if you are buying if
you are buying an Android device right
now today on any US carrier of import
the gs3 is the phone that you want I'm
very comfortable saying that I would
have said that if the dad sent the
review it to me I'll send it to you
today I'll drop it in the mail I'll drop
it in the frickin mail this is this is a
bullshit we are if we get their own will
recommend a if we know what yeah I know
someone in chat said why don't we just
use apex to deal these skin issues and i
do want to bring bring up that like it's
more than just the launcher with this
stuff especially especially with sense
it goes pretty deep into the OS and in
all of the apps and it can be kind of
annoying so i've actually you know i'm
on the custom rom train with with my one
x and right now i'm running Paul
O'Brien's modaco vanilla rom and i got
to say i highly recommend it it's quite
good you get the the stock apps and you
know pretty close to stock experience
where it possible there are still places
where he still have you know it's still
the HTC stuff it's still the HTC
multitasking it's still home screen
settings in a few other places but other
than that you know done a really good
job and so i am going to hold out and
stick with the HTC phones to the galaxy
s3 for a while longer just because it's
been so long since i used anything other
than the samsung phone as my main phone
for an extended period of time that uh I
feel like I I owe it to the smartphone
world to switched up hardware actually
oh yeah I you know exactly making a mess
of compromise hadita yeah so that's
major major sacrifice right yeah the One
X and the and the the gs3 are seriously
stone's throw apart from each other in
terms of which phone is best and if you
ask 10 people that use both phones i'll
bet you would get a 55 split seriously
they're that close but there I am lucky
that the One X has got pretty good
battery life because if the battery life
on this thing we're poor the removable
battery on the gs3 would be a huge huge
deal for me I figured it would be anyway
but I'm turning out to manage pretty
well without a removable battery yeah
and actually battery life does not
appear to be great for me on the 18 TG
s3 and that's probably because I'm using
it on LTE a lot and an AMOLED is an
issue to write because you're looking a
lot of white things and white consumes
the most power on an AMOLED but there's
one other problem with the gs3 that I
should bring up and Valetta I'm sorry I
can't remember how much you talk about
this in your review but I don't think I
like Samsung's decision to go with this
weird wonky custom menu paradigm where
they hate you know the gs3 has a
physical menu key which goes against
google's design guidelines right android
for completely so i don't know how they
do this in software but somehow the
phone knows I all apps know that they
shouldn't show the menu button in the
action bar at the top like you would get
on the One X or or the Galaxy Nexus and
instead you just had the physical menu
button and when you hit that it doesn't
show up by the action bar where you
would expect it show up it shows up as
this text only weird list thing at the
bottom of the display now in practice
that's good in a way because you can
actually reach it with your thumb but it
still feels hacky and I also you know in
the u.s. I've never had to deal with a
galaxy s phone that had the physical
home and after using the gs3 I don't
understand it I don't know why Samsung
would want to do that because it's it's
it's like it's unnecessary effort like I
know that we're living in an age where
people are lazy Chris you you guys are
complaining about the effort of pressing
in a physical sense yes Wow require it's
nice though to hit a physical button I
mean you use an iphone it's nice to have
that fizz
but the the menu thing is totally all
about ice cream sandwich and how Google
has directed developers to code their
apps I see the same thing you know on my
hacked rom that doesn't have the menu
button anymore but uses the you know
it's a multitasking button as a menu
button and if you do find you can you
can still find apps that have the action
bar that don't hide the menu button like
they're supposed to and on those apps
that will pop the menu up in the action
bar which is weird so you know it's all
about just consistency and you know
Google with with ice cream sandwich kind
of failed at shoving the new design
guidelines Matias Duarte put together on
all the carriers to go deep down into
their skins and it just means going to
be dealing with you know weird behavior
issues on stuff like the menu for a long
time to come I think well let's bring it
back to chris's point though because
this is the one way is not a hundred
percent right on where's which you know
I measured him because he's being a
hundred percent right so for the whole
show and he was you know passing a
hundred percent but seriously the home
button you need it Chris I me know if
you have you put if you put any smart
phone any tablet any smart digital
device in a non-techie person's hands
the thing they want to know is how do I
get back to the start how do I get back
to the beginning I don't get back to
home and presses work at home what keeps
having yet this is why Apple keeps
having the home button the physical home
button um whereas if he you have I mean
okay I'll take the point if you have a
soft software home button or competitive
home button centered as it is on Ice
Cream Sandwich it does the same job
right but having it as a physical one is
just really unmistakable and to me it is
an upgrade to have two capacitive keys
at one home button in the middle
assassins doing rather than with the
galaxy s2 variants in the US where you
still have the for Android keys at the
bottom because there it's like I need to
find a home icon and then press it and
then there's the other thing which is
that every android phone as in a
different spot every android
own as a slightly different home icon it
starts to get annoying so that's very
wait to get back home needs to be in the
middle and if it's the one physical
button on the whole front of the phone
it just makes it that much easier point
taken and I if we're really going to get
into this let's get into the fact that
the menu button is on the left hand side
and the back button is on inside you can
understand do you think you can sense or
lower left okay so my theory is that
they did that because I thought about
that dieter I think the reason they did
that is that the back button is used
significantly more than the menu button
and they're designing it to sort of
favor a right-handed person is my guess
but but that's just a guess I mean I
don't really know but but back to your
point Vlad I point taken i think that
the the center home but makes a lot of
sense and maybe i'm complaining more
about it more than a normal person would
because i'm coming from the 1x which has
a center-mounted capacitive home button
which i think is kind of the optimal
solution but one thing that I've noticed
in using the gs3 that is that i'm using
the multitasking feature less i I'd
really gotten into the habit alti
tasking between apps on the 1x I don't
know why I can't explain why but I just
did and now I'm not because I you have
to hold the home button down for what is
like a second or something which just
feels like an eternity when you're
holding it down waiting for the the menu
to appear now that's a very valid point
i'll be using the 1x as well and I do
find myself increasingly starting to
rely on it so just jumping between like
for example today the music app Maps
application gmail go back and forth
usually I'll do that by going back to
the home screen and getting back into
the app via the link there now I'm
starting to rely on the motor task in
part because it is quick and it does i
should work like it's posted so i mean
i'm actually getting the feeling that
google knows what the hell is doing
because google is the one that it falls
this idea of forget the menu pots and
you don't need that anymore what you
really need is a multi tasking key and
you know a lot of people might recall a
few weeks and months back me saying well
what asking menu doesn't really seem
like that much of a useful thing to be
but it's kind of like the ipad is
starting to sneak into my life yeah they
annoying way where you kind of grasp day
oh actually this thing is useful right
so yeah I'm going yeah I have nothing
other night well let me think I want to
go through my usage of the gs3 in the
past three days see if there's anything
else notable that I want to talk about
um I don't think so go buy it go buy
this phone if you're if you're in a
market if you're in the market for an
android phone this week by it ja if josh
Topolsky we're listening he would tell
you that I'm completely wrong and you
should get a Galaxy Nexus which is also
a great phone not a badge ya see I'm
going to tell you that if you're in the
market for an android phone this week
you should wait at least until thursday
when we have finished with our to live
blogs of google i/o when we are
expecting android 4.1 jelly bean to be
announced and maybe Google will actually
do something about this upgrade
situation and then you'll know what
phone that you buy is going to get an
upgrade come on you know better than
that they tried last year at i/o it they
failed what are they gonna say or do
this year that they didn't say or do
last year regarding gum every motorola
phone is gonna ship android 4.1 next
month hmm oh it's not gonna happen if
yeah and if they if they did that there
would be riots in the streets led by
samsung and HTC and all these other guys
so yeah was damaged i'm a good i'll but
uh so we're expecting the nexus tablet
of course or whatever it's called maybe
it'll be a nexus maybe it won't 7-inch
looks like they're targeting the low end
of the market right something that would
go up against like the the the kindle
fire which i think is is a product that
andy rubin even though he's never gone
on the record saying anything negative
particularly negative about the fire I
think he would love to see that product
torpedoed and I think that um you know
Android as a platform has escaped his
control enough at this point so that
there's nothing Google could say or do
or produce that would torpedo the fire
but
gosh darn if he's going to try and I i
think that the nexus tablet is designed
to do exactly that is not designed to
kill the ipad they tried that last year
and they failed well if we looking back
off from the Americanism of trying to
kill something with every product here
releasing yes i used term kill you know
what i mean III know and I um nervously
I mean he it does very much seem like
this Nexus tablet okay first of all you
pretty much take it as given that this
nexus tablet is coming out good pretty
much take it is even though seven inches
may buy issues feature a Tegra 3
processor inside those have been rumored
so hard so thoroughly so consistently by
so many upstream components maker
sources but so many people familiar with
the matter that we can trust it this
point so that's a given um and and the
other thing is that this whole heap of
circumstantial evidence from previous
information from a suit as we all know
is you still loves launch devices at
least three times that's now a new at
Taiwan tradition you'd go to the vice
three times may be four times you try to
keep people on their toes and then maybe
eventually you release it okay they
showed off I don't even know if they
show look but they announced together
with NVIDIA at CES that they would do a
two hundred or was a two hundred fifty
dollar tablets it's gotta have Tegra
free inside it and it's gonna is going
to be a seven inch device and they
quoted the memo even though the memo had
previously been announced as a model
device in any case the point is this
advice already exists but after CES they
were just complete silence about it so
it does seem like between CES and I know
a couple of months ago four months ago
Google decided you know we will call
this the Nexus tablet will you know
brand it with you guys is hetero cetera
and this is why we never heard of that
cheap Asus tablet again and it should
now resurfaced as the nexus tablet with
Google's branding what's going to be
really interesting about it though is
most tablets so far android tablets they
have already
stuck with stock Android they've already
been shipping the stock software and it
just hasn't been good enough you know I
screw side which is gonna upgrade but it
still is really good enough to compete
with the ipad is chris's been saying so
now that Google is brand new one is a
Nexus device how is it going to
differentiate it from its partners
because differentiation with Nexus
phones was his stock Android here's the
pure Android experience but on tablets
yo to gain the piano experience it is
not good enough so what is google going
to add right and they've already got the
ecosystem they've got google play video
google play music google play books you
know they got all that very dangerous
tablets are already running something
very close to stock if not straight
stock they just they need the apps man
like the apps are just not there for
android tablets in the way that they are
in android phones or of course iOS
tablets and phones and you know unless
Google can give us you know unless
they're going to go and kidnap all the
top developers and then put them in
Mountain View and chain them up and make
them write apps for android tablets I
you know it's not going to kill the fire
but I I'm also just I'm not bullish on
Google being able to convince me that I
need this thing I mean you know I really
see it of course I predict that at the
tail end of tomorrow's keynote or or
thursdays keynote I guess we don't
really know their key notes on both days
but at the end of one of these two key
notes they're going to parade a long
long line of top-tier developers on
stage to show off new apps that or
redesigns of existing apps that have
been designed specifically to run on the
7 inch device and because I google
cannot be stupid enough to believe that
their tablet failure has been anything
other than a nap story and and so I
think we're going to hear a very strong
at message and it's been a while yeah
that I message on on this nexus tablet
like they need to thank amazon for the
fire for actually being successful
because we're finally seeing
start to move towards that you know
7-inch form factor that was that was
mark comment with instant paper he's
like well I didn't want to do an Android
tablet app but you know there's this
kindle fire and it's doing pretty well
and so whatever success Google can get
at convincing developers to get trotted
out on stage to show off apps on the
7-inch android 4.1 tablet i think a
large part of that comes because of
amazon yeah that's a fair point i could
i can see their justification i mean if
the kindle fire never came out though
let's make no mistake about it this
device that Cougars about to introduce
would have been seen as a real break for
and would it be like a Google is going
to walk Google with such and such such
so now I mean let's face it amazon beat
google to the punch with us it bacc be
everyone to the punch with reaching that
low price point and now amazon is burned
a fruits of that hopefully the whole
Android ecosystem is better fruit that
um I think that's the whole benefit to
it but coming back to chris's earlier
point and the reason google has a droid
in the first place is not to do some
magical wonderful thing for the whole of
humanity it does it so it can distribute
google services so just because the
kindle fire is based on android doesn't
help doesn't serve google's interests
google wants its maps it saps its
application store and most importantly
as well its content source you know
music books etc on those tablets and
this is the device is going to do that
is going to drag down the android entry
price point it's going to thereby open
up a new audience for google services
and google's content distribution
services and in-app payment and all the
other junk and nonsense that Google
might want to pitch along with that but
as you guys say I'm not convinced that
there's going to be something unique
about this and stuffing a Google pitch
as a nexus thing and I don't even know
what's going to happen with this whole
Nexus branding thing because ok you
stick another tablet now the tablet is
you
nique enough to justify it and then soon
enough as it would be hearing few months
from now they'll be like five Nexus
device manufacturer so what does next is
become then does it just become another
byword for android yeah I think the next
the term Nexus is going to be the
replacement for what we called in the
early days the the Google Experience
Android I think that's what its evolving
into yeah and and and let me say
something else about this tablet i think
that the key to its success i think that
that they that they stand a very real
chance of selling a lot of them and one
of the ways they're going to do that is
by undercutting the fire i think that
will see an entry-level product and we
heard we've been hearing rumors about
this for several months now but i
suspect we'll see an entry-level product
for somewhere between 149 and 179 and of
course the fires really yeah can you
imagine can you imagine if they
announced tomorrow a 149 8 or 16 gig
tablet gig because all your stuff is in
the cloud and that's still plenty of
storage space for for a single movie and
then you can just swap in whatever you
want to watch for any more you do that
with tegra breakers a six-lane maybe it
involved they could take to it I
understand white 16gb is gonna make it
cheaper I'm saying Tegra free is a both
counts that's expensive that's just one
ship to grab and stick it to your google
voice so that I think they didn't volume
I mean that would be crazy aggressive
because I think that a sous was cutting
its profit margins really thin by
pitching it at 200 250 and if Google is
subsidizing it that would it d be
extremely aggressive I mean I would buy
one of those well let's put it this way
bathroom they certainly can't sell it
for more than the fire which is one
onion oh yeah no that is their upper
limit it can't it's got a top out at 199
that's it yeah i think it could be 250 I
mean at the expectation is let's get
straight the expiration is that it would
be two hundred dollars yes or 199
but I think 250 is also a realistic
scenario quick house I mean it looks
like getting a splinter is realistic
it's it's it's gonna happen it could
happen but it really sucks yeah pretty
much I mean compared to the rest of the
so to speak full powered android tablets
they still don't cost 250 so even at two
hundred fifty dollars go who is on the
cutting its OEM his partners which day
I'm sure to appreciate they will love it
they'll be like yes build up the Android
ecosystem so we can have zero profit
margins that works or I mean you really
think that Google's om partners are
going to be crying profusely and weeping
in the streets because they can't sell
more android tablets like they're
they're fine with phones I mean thank
rise already had a raging success with
Android tablets no and I mean I think it
was last week we're discussing LG
decided that she's gonna bail out on
tablets for now cuz yeah it's either you
seems like their ways to right when is
the last time HTC showed an android
tablet jetstream baby jet stream I know
it that's a really good point Chris HTC
has just being completely excited he
hasn't said we're not doing tablets but
it hasn't done I'm all right right in
fact the last HTC tablet rumor we heard
was that they got shut out of making a
Windows RT devices yeah that's right oh
that's right yeah god I wish I hadn't
brought up the jet you hadn't brought
the jet stream because now all I can
think about was the fact that thing
retailed for like five thousand dollars
I'm contracts with it really was yeah it
was it yet at launch it was something
insane and everybody just laughed it off
the stage so mad been successful for 200
on contract right maybe I actually have
something of a nonsense to my question
earlier on about what Nexus branding is
gonna mean um and is it it's also kind
of a predictable answer actually but let
me say it anyway I've started so I'll
finish whatever um the point is so maybe
Google with the Nexus branding is going
to
but there by distinguish the device is
that it considers part of its inner
circle or part of its Android the part
that it can control and the user
experience that he wants to pitch and
promote I mean I'm sure google is be
saying that as well in his marketing but
but like we've discussed previously the
whole idea that Android is bigger than
what Google can control him what Google
can it force and you have all these
android phones in China that cause like
forty nine dollars and have resistive
touchscreens and all sorts of crazy
stupid skins like iOS games and whatnot
so maybe maybe that is the best way to
look at it we have Android as this
sprawling massive crazy thing which
Google is given to the world its
charitable ways and then you have the
nexus program which is actually the
device is adhering to the Google design
guidelines because I don't think anybody
is going to buy should GU design
guidelines have more to do with apps
aren't they less so yeah but I could
they could say you you can't skin beyond
this point with the the Nexus line yeah
I mean I hope you're right i hope google
really makes a go of it and really tries
to get a whole bunch of manufacturers on
board with the nexus program and really
tries to get more you know pure Android
or nexus class android phones in front
of consumers in a bigger way because i
would like for that to work i would like
for that to win i would like for samsung
and HTC and sony and whomever else
motorola to recognize that like that can
work in that people will buy those
phones or it will be a huge failure
nobody will buy the phones nobody will
actually care the way we do about a
stock experience and then we'll know but
we don't know right now because as much
as google has tried with the the Galaxy
Nexus Nexus S and yada yada yada I don't
feel like it's really gotten any serious
carrier support and I would like to see
that happen at least once even if it
fails because then we'll know and we can
stop complaining about it just accept
that we live in a world of TouchWiz and
since I widget rent I think the spring
has tried very hard to be buddy-buddy of
in the Nexus program they remember they
they originally announced the next
one was going to it they said that was
going to be coming to sprint and they
canceled it a couple months later if you
remember that and then they you know
they launched the the nexus s of course
before that they were the first US
carrier do so and now they have the
Galaxy Nexus and that they're the only
carrier that has that really tight
although wonky google voice integration
so I they're trying it's just that it
doesn't run Google Wallet to sprint yeah
google wallet yes um yeah the point I
was going to raise is that for a long
time you know google has been held
responsible for all of android and you
know it just really grown way too big
like I was just saying so in having its
next program in having this partnership
with the big phone manufacturers at
least think Google can kind of put a
circle around its ecosystem so you can
say this is the nexus program can be
said to be the Google ecosystem within
Android and then everybody else guys
like the amazon kindle fire and the
Chinese OEMs could trying to sell cheap
phones they could just be taken to be
responsible to themselves and using
Android and I didn't feel like Google
needs that in PR terms because Apple can
say okay we take care of the iphone and
we take every variable Microsoft soon is
going to be able to say go windows phone
8 and we take care of everybody who has
that very well hopefully right so
everybody has the little stable of
devices let's say Microsoft's going to
have that Apple is going to have its iOS
devices and how Google can say okay we
have the nexus program hold us
accountable for that don't hold us
accountable for the crazy OEMs and
Amazon and whoever else yeah I like that
that's a that's a beautiful dream and I
want to drink no and Google wants I do I
me an tomorrow yeah google wants to I I
really believe that Google wants to
control something and they've lost
controlled Android and I think that they
they have every reason to want to regain
some semblance of control to the
platform
I mean going back to the Xperia ion it
is patently absurd to think that the
Xperia ion is becoming available in
retail channels the same week that the
the version of Android two versions
later is being announced yeah I this is
up to an adapter later if you want to
couch gingerbread or I'm sorry honey
comb sure yeah good point and and so
that is a sure if that's not a sign of a
broken platform I don't know what is
yeah man is totally it's a tolerably
broken platform because in the end of
the day when all is said and done I come
back to Android it's a I know my mouth
do you come anyway come back to gmail
let's see that's the thing with me is I
came back to google maps and I come back
to gmail I don't come back to Android
yeah I realized like but I much is true
but then where do you get the best
experience of both Android right right
guys it's launched struggling with gmail
app on the iPad but you know it's a yeah
its ecosystem lock in just like any
other I mean the same goes for for Apple
and and and Microsoft would like for it
to go the same way for them and maybe
they'll have that success in Windows
Phone 8 but yeah I mean it's only
tolerable in so much that you can run
roughly the same number of apps and all
these versions chrome is a very notable
exception right where you need
four-point-oh to run it and a big
problem because chrome is notably better
than than the built in android browser
yeah I kind you're just like it could be
poison and they just said no to try and
force people to upgrade it to know I
believe it and and here's another
nightmare thought for you dieter what if
they tomorrow or Thursday they announced
that Chrome for Android is going gold
and oh by the way you need four point oh
excuse me 4.1 to run the gold version oh
not here that would be horrible I don't
know well I will do this I will just
walk away I'm just gone
get up in the middle you'll get up and
leave I doubt don't do that but I just
wanted to draw a distinction before
somebody tries to call me out because
we're just discussing early on in the
podcast I'm saying the default browser
symbian isn't good enough whereas now
we're saying chrome beta is the thing
and there I go again I said Peter in the
podcast every solution without fail I
will talk about a pre-final hot software
anyway but the reason there's a
difference between the symbian situation
we have to download upper many and this
one is because chrome is the product of
goo right so if Nokia was producing a
better proud browser and just ask you to
download it the way that Google does
then is fine you know but relying on
third-party applications just to get
basic functionality running on your
phone is not acceptable and that's me
done with the whingeing about Cindy I
really promise and then we're gonna talk
about some good anymore I think our chat
room just exploded with people trying to
spell beta it's it simply amazing it's
that we have the best listeners know
I've got a solution I'm just gonna say
in Bulgarian we're just at them it's
better that's a son I like that but but
that still sounds like you're saying
better with an English accent or beater
with an English accent that's the
problem glad Chris there is no problem
just let it go well um well you should
talk about do we want to talk about
Microsoft saying it's not going to build
windows phones which i guess is
enjoyable because they you know they
just started building saying they're
gonna build tablets I mean the thing
about them not building windows phones
is to me is like well yeah that's cuz
they've got nokia so they don't have to
but if they hadn't you know i was gonna
say if they hadn't bought nokia which
isn't true but if they had you know
partners so closely with nokia
I think that this would be a much more
open question but it didn't surprise me
at all to hear the reiterate that
they're not going to build Windows
Phones directly no I don't think that
it's cut and dried at all I mark my
words i think that within 10 years and
maybe this will be this will be
accelerated in here come on man wasn't a
weight wine cars and jetpacks that's why
i said 1960 and it's still not true dude
it's my 2015 roadmap it's happening look
well if even if Ballmer doesn't leave in
the next 10 years which I'm assuming he
will but but at some point microsoft is
going to become a fully vertically
integrated company Allah Apple mark my
words HP is going to be screwed asus is
going to be screwed acer is going to be
screwed dell is going to be screwed and
it's it's not to say that they won't be
licensing out windows just as they do
know but i think you're going to see
microsoft makes them extremely
compelling hardware across the board
surface and devices like surface in the
surface family to use microsoft
terminology have the potential to
replace every single pc in your life
right that they show that dock and so
they have that angle covered they are
one CEO whim away from becoming a phone
manufacturer at which case you'll in in
which case you will not want any other
windows phone on the market you just
won't yeah no sir do you think they did
buy Nokia to do it I mean do they need
to I mean okay as we've seen nobody's
got a lesser point extra stuff that does
appeal and the rumor with the Microsoft
and the reason it did surface was that
Microsoft but it was a really a rumor it
just microsoft wasn't happy with the
hardware that's Steve Ballmer said that
in the surface introduction he was
saying sometimes we feel we need to
produce the hardware to support the
software where we see the need for
hardware we be too hard word supports or
school and he started talking about
Microsoft Mouse's from 1980 11 whatever
but that that was his point this is why
the surface tablets exist he's not happy
and Mike
isn't happy with the windows tablets
that others are doing so it's doing it
uh itself the thing would knock here is
that I don't even think Microsoft is
convinced that it can outdo knock it on
design and I'm me personally I don't
think it can like I still think Nokia
sound the best Hardware designers just
anywhere anyway so you know I the point
the point is put on you know you have
nokia and the kicking out these awesome
designs why buy them I mean how are you
going to improve on things in yes if
you're gonna build hardware you buy
Nokia because that's the cheapest
cheapest you know mobile motor factory
kit you can get now is just going for
bargain now you can get them for like a
billion of something they're like ninety
percent are gonna play a few instagrams
yeah Tim Instagram scroll man you know
they're saying they're still like six or
seven or eight billions on their market
cap and and they'd have to pay a premium
on top of that to satisfy investors i
think but wait wait wait i would point
you the big question mate was there's
more or less than they paid for skype
because they pay less than they paid for
skype then that's that's just the most
embarrassing thing ever look they just
paid 1.2 billion for Yammer which nobody
has ever heard of that's so good I use
Yammer every day and I'm the only one
yeah you're the only actually somebody
ran the numbers and I think they
reported that they paid two hundred
forty dollars per user how ok I need to
ask this question because I'm pretty
sure of the numbers but I just need a
reality check so Instagram arguably the
most popular dedicated photo sharing app
ever cost 1 billion dollars to buy and
in Yammer this limited niche social
enterprise application even those social
enterprises really exist or anybody
apart from theta uses it cause 1.2
billion so cuz twenty percent more than
Instagram I've ethereal if you'd like to
hear it about
amer price i believe and i have specific
reasons to believe this unnamed sources
sources familiar with the matter i think
that in the past month oracle and
microsoft were engaged in a bidding war
for Yammer which drove the price well
beyond reason and oracle finally backed
off and microsoft won the war I think
that's what happened I think that's a
very reasonable no idea to believe you
know I need to I need to have mini rant
here because this is just not to me
because I'd first of all your opaque but
the other thing is the whole idea that
you need specific software for
enterprise it's just flowed to me I know
people gonna say oh well enterprise the
special security needs etc etc but we
all need to sit down and think about the
developments and the trends in software
the software is becoming most prevalent
and most popular in enterprise in
business is actually consumer software
so you know people are moving to gmail
because it's the best consumer email
client I mean we all use gmail I don't
think that's a much of a company secret
and a whole bunch of other people are
using it because it's convenient because
they enjoy it and because they like to
have a consistency between the home and
a work environment and okay I'm not
getting too many other examples on the
top of my head but there are so many
other instances where and okay perfect
example is Twitter right you think
Twitter is a social network it's not
twitter is actually a work network I
it's not it's not shocked or surprised
at all look at the statistics during the
Working Day or the working hours in the
United States that's when you get the
most tweets and you know the BBC when it
does breaking news reports it will say
such and such dead twitter client etc
and the time when tooth dies down and
quietens down is the weekend if twitter
was so true network that's when you will
explode whereas its most popular and
most actually used during working hours
I mean it is what social
come on I mean it is a social isolation
there Peter it's a social network people
are using prime I mean the vast majority
of twitter users are using it to talk to
friends they're not using it you know
the way that we use it as you know
journalists on the web who you know use
it as partially personal and partially
you know to talk about articles and talk
to our other you know journalist
colleagues the vast majority of people
are using it just as a straight-up
social network they just happen to be
doing it at work right but we sit but
that's the point though when you sit in
front of your computer you're using
software and this is a software you use
yet United okay that's fair using things
like Yammer and again I don't think I'm
you know I need to sit down and find
meteor examples of what I'm trying to
say here but it is the truth that to me
there is no distinction anymore between
consumer and enterprise software there's
just good software people want to use
and and some people should be making to
support your point Vlad III haven't
logged in to Yammer in a while but last
time I logged into it the interface was
literally a facebook clone uh yeah it's
fishman and that's why I write because
it is it is a facebook clone that I know
is guaranteed not to be shared outside
it's a private facebook just for a small
group of people and it has a few
features like you know mobile alerts and
whatnot that are convenient for me and
like that's what I want and if you can
find me you know something on face you
know Facebook is you know they they use
Facebook you know for internal private
Facebook stuff but there's just like I
just want to have you know a different
URL in a different logo but you know
some of those same features the facebook
what is a here's facebook for enterprise
if they did that tomorrow then this
Yammer purchase would look like the most
ridiculous thing ever you uh you know
what you want a facebook for enterprises
it's called a private group a private
facebook group yeah I know it's a
private group but there's still a little
bit of a there's a at least a sense for
me that like maybe that will work out
and I know that that date just means you
actually you're actually making my point
right now thank you you just went by
point perfectly um because yes I
completely agree Yammer is just a total
and complete Facebook ripoff the only
reason it even exists without getting
sued into the ground is because there's
no intellectual property protection on
all of Facebook's UI features but
everybody has seen it I said two things
about yeah first of all yes my company
uses yeah but I don't which is hilarious
because it's so true for most people
other than data and the second thing is
is just the Facebook Ripper so what
we're saying earlier is here's the the
best social enterprise network that
exists and it's modeled on the consumer
software which is facebook so i am
totally right yeah you are totally but
hey but the secondary point is doesn't
this doesn't the fact that Microsoft
paid so much money for yama which is a
river on Facebook kind of betray a lack
of confidence in microsoft itself like
you paying 1.2 billion for something
that ripped off one of your direct
software competitors shooting you have
the confidence to build a rip off at
least yourself you know or could I see
yourself keep in mind that microsoft
owns a pretty good chunk of facebook hey
they own what like 50 chapters had a
facebook I don't know what I don't know
is that Bank but they owned a chunk yeah
we really need to stop talking about
Yammer even as the one guy who defends
Yammer it's depressing to me yeah this
is getting real boring real fast um do
we want to talk about this rumor that
room might spin off its hardware
business I think we gotta talk about it
there it is the remember I mean it's it
seemed much more likely to me that
they'd spin-off their messaging business
but I think that the the thing that ran
Jim Balsillie out where he wanted to
like be fabia their offer their services
offerings I think that that conflict is
obviously still going on there and you
know it'll come to a head at some point
I think spinning it rather than selling
it but spinning off the hardware
division might make sense but man I mean
that's just there to be hair I've lived
I yeah I mean we've all seen a phone we
know although the example of a phone
company that tried to split itself
up into a hardware and software division
then we all know how that turned out
yeah I'm just Saranoff theatre yeah you
palmone in palm source but but the the
the counter-argument is that there are
lots of examples of companies doing this
successfully and other related
industries right IBM is now largely a
software company barnes and nobles in
the process of of spinning off its its
digital division into new co that is the
joint venture with Microsoft and I I
think that there is reason to believe
that this might be a way to save what
rim perceives to be its core business
which is enterprise framework stuff and
let the hardware side wither on the vine
right like motorola solutions and
motorola mobility is another example
where motorola solutions was tired of
getting dragged down it's an extremely
profitable company and they were tired
of getting dragged down by motorola
mobility which at the time was a very
dangerous sort of a liability in the
company that was constantly dragging
down quarterly reports and so it made a
lot of sense for them to split same
thing here and in barnes a noble same
thing right like it the legacy book
business is dying they want to you know
split the the good part from the bad
part so yeah I mean okay Lou the room
which is good part which is a bad part
well appointed services it's okay well
the services guess what I mean Microsoft
is coming down hard with Windows Phone 8
and you know running the same exact
management software that she used to
manage desktops right and the same
security features and the same you know
not everything but a whole lot like no
I'm sure services are going to do quite
well especially in you know emerging
markets for quite a while but I i think
that rims enterprise business which
every was ago there's strong an
enterprise they'll be strong enterprise
forever and ever I feel like there's a
glass jaw there like it could it looks
strong but it could plummet really fast
and I know that enterprise I'm going to
stop talking a second I know that
enterprise you know has a longer cycle
for choosing the products that they use
but I mean you know the cycle is going
to hit some time and yet once the
once they start slipping and big big
companies start moving away and mass
like there's no way for them to claw
back in okay you start something a shot
okay now ever we need to remember Jimbo
silly and when he left because that was
months and months and months ago no like
now anything room does now is just going
to be over G and too late like whatever
decisions solution the company attempts
to make is going to seem like it's too
late Jim Balsillie wanted to do this
kind of thing start distributing rims
software services a lot more broadly
de-emphasize the hardware side of things
maybe split it into two which is the
rumor now that there'll be hardware
section and there'll be services and
enterprise and all that stuff separately
he wanted to do that I probably a year
ago and longer than that I mean they it
was late last year that they him and
Mike Lazaridis left the disco CEO
positions I think so I mean this this
idea is we were saying the conflict has
been in the works for a long time but I
also feel like the whole discussion has
lot less to do with the consumer facing
aspect of the business and more to do
with just basic trying to appease
stockholders and shit shareholders and
prospective investors let's say because
the hardware side of things is not the
growth area of rooms business at all so
if you can split that off and just give
people proposition where I would look we
have profits and they are actually
growing maybe you can start or rather
maybe you can stop the hemorrhaging of
your overall share price because Raymond
nokia have been just going downhill for
the past you know yea year and a half
it's been nuts for those guys so it
could just be like a financial markets
operation rather than a fundamental
change in how the company operates right
now I could see that I just have a hard
time believing that once you make a
change like that that it seems like it's
it's a sign that like that slide isn't
going to
you know like it I don't I don't know
even the success stories that Chris's
pointed out like let's take IBM as the
example it's um it's not like things
were going terribly for them when they
split off thinkpad tits oldest of lenovo
like where is it where's a company that
was on a downslide and then split up
into two separate divisions and all the
sudden things were like hey back up
everything's awesome I can't think of
any that's that's a good point I can't
think of one of us of my head either
yeah that's that's that's fair I mean
but but but here's here's the the other
point that I would make which is what
what is the other alternative what could
rim do that would instead guarantee
their their continued success or would
put them back in the driver's seat right
cuz i mean i think that palmas orbital I
mean that's their best solution right
now right you've SQ time travel
technology even if blackberry 10 is
perfect even if it's the best thing that
we've ever seen and it just blows minds
throughout the the audience wherever
they they they introduce this product
which it may very well be we saw some
pretty cool things at at at blackberry
world but but assuming it's it's spot-on
perfect they still have this huge huge
uphill battle around the ecosystem
around getting carriers on board and
around convincing consumers that they
want one of these devices instead of an
Android or not an Android device or an
iPhone which the I I don't know how
they're gonna do that I mean well
honestly Chris I think if rim nails
blackberry 10 that is it's so chance to
survival i am i'm actually more positive
because brand loyalty takes a long time
to wither away with people and i think a
lot of people who have been load to
blackberry and potentially moved on to
android devices like I know I know
Joanna stern did that where she
eventually finally gave up on the
blackberry keyboard gave up a BBM and
got herself a droid verizon I think then
she went back to Piper again but in any
case those guys would be willing to give
him another chance if it
really nails or software so this is like
the twinkling tiniest little spark of
hope for him but it needs to execute
perfectly which it hasn't done for years
and years and this is why we're so
downbeat and the company teacher like it
would need to change completely like way
down is root which I don't know how you
do like maybe you do that with one
person one small team massive big
company like that I don't know how
you're able to achieve that sort of
change right which is you know I think
that also kind of tells you that we're
nearing the end of this show because
we're really we're really taking its own
way down that's how I society yeah we
always ended on a depressing note that's
that's our signature well guys if you'd
like to email us you can we are at
mobile show at the verge calm we're also
on Twitter i'm at back lawn Vlad's at
GLAAD sava chris is at z power and we
are all at verge and we'll be back next
week with another positive upbeat
version bubble show thanks guys hey guys
you
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.