Gadgetory

so you know the cliche when there's a car crash you can't not look you can't not slow down and gawk and see what happens you know what doesn't happen when there's a car crash the dude in the car doesn't get out and get out a bullhorn and start shouting at traffic that everything's fine i'm gonna be able drive away really soon it's gonna be awesome we pretty much experience that this past week in the mobile world will explain why stay tuned for the Virgin Mobile show I'm dieter bohn i'm chris sigler i'm david pierce yes this really appears oh right this is real this is happening so we were actually we were just talking about this during rehearsal the fact that David Pierce is going to introduce himself and then I was going to make some disparaging remarks about him about how we tried to get literally every other person at the verge to be on this show and everyone said no and then finally we got to David Pierce were like okay well we're out of people we better ask David and he agreed to come on but no that's absolutely not true at all he was our first choice and I'm delighted to say that that he said yes and then I asked every other podcast if I could do that one and then when they all said no I'm here there's another lie there did you just say in rehearsal rehearsal yeah we we didn't matter reverse anything what what do you call that what do you call the period before the the show waiting for chris to get out of the bathroom so we can start that's accurate fair okay yeah we can go with that this is episode 7 for the week of july nine 2012 if you're keeping track and i hope you are and we ended last week on a down note and so we're gonna start on that same down note this week because i'm tired of having it at the end can we talk about just how crazy rim and blackberry is right now like nothing has changed but like just the the insanity of they're their media blitz is blowing my mind and Chris you listened into the entire investor meeting today yeah I did I did and it was basically a repeat of the earnings call torsten this speech uh mirrored what we heard what was that weaker week and a half ago almost word for word and there really wasn't anything new revealed we did get a very brief tidbit as part of the QA that happened after his speech about video chat coming to BBM in blackberry 10 which we kind of threw some leaked screenshots before that crackberry broke last month I believe but we have that on the record now and there were a couple other very minor things here and there but by and large was basically the same doom and gloom that we've been hearing for a while now torsten said that he's not satisfied with performance of the company next few quarters are going to be difficult q1 2013 blackberry 10 now so on and so forth and I was actually surprised I mean there were some somewhat heated questions from shareholders during the Q&A session but it was basically uh it did decorum I that nobody broke decorum let's put it that way it was it was pretty is pretty soft spoken all things considered there were that there was one guy that came up to the mic and said um you know how did the the legacy board members let it get so bad and let it go for so long to the point where we're at now and one of the board members I can't remember her name but one of the board members said excuse me do you have a question and then he just went and sat down that was about as i was about as he does it got still I that kind of surprised me I thought we were gonna hear some some really really tough questions thrown at the at the executives but there were there were just some really random questions that you know you think this might be your only opportunity in your entire life to address the CEO of rim one on one as a shareholder and you go up and ask a question the very first question was nortel had some problems with with being infiltrated by Chinese hackers over the past few years what can you tell us about you her security again what kind of what is the plan man come on that's that's that's a ringer that's that somebody put in the audience to ask that that's a very good point and can through that but one thing that that I thought was really interesting the torsen said in response to that question I thought the question was lame but one thing that he said in response was that rim doesn't make phones in China over security concerns which I'd never thought about before cuz you know rim is pretty well known for being one the only major phone manufacturers not to make phones in China and apparently that's why yeah I mean I don't know that I think I've touched on this before like I don't understand why they are being so public and have been so public in the lead-up to this investor meeting I mean so torsen Heinz gave a really long interview to al Sacco at CIO and I mean he said some interesting stuff there like one thing would that was neat to hear him say was that rim just didn't understand that LTE was important and that nobody in North America cares about saving bandwidth anymore and like they just straight up with that they were focusing on the wrong thing um which you know totally true right but that's I think the first time first time I've heard anybody from rim sort of take a veiled swipe at Lazarus and his his engineering focus well if that was all lazy what I don't get is why don't they do more of that like why wouldn't hunts come out and just constantly say like we blew it we did a lot of things really poorly for a long time and we got this thing wrong but we're gonna get the next thing right and you know they got the last thing right and then this thing wrong and then if they get the next thing right they might be fine but instead they come out and say you know things like we believe there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the company and aren't on and just like why wouldn't he come out and take these swipes at the old guard and say well they screwed up I'm doing my best to fix it well I'll tell you one very big recent is the fact that uh la zurita sits on the board of the company in fact he was just to be elected today so that make making those comments with Leslie is sitting like 15 feet here to your side might be a little intimidating especially considering that Leslie just looks like the kind of guy that could get up and come at you like full bore and nah you will not a douche up yeah he'd lead with his head to he'd like his hair just BAM right beard ass yeah that's though I mean I think that part of it is like we don't know like what their stock is the good at bottom out at if it has I mean it they've lost so much value and there's a whole lot of smoke around you know what is gonna happen are they gonna split the company are they gonna try and spin off hardware they're trying to spin off the software are they gonna do anything you know fundamental a fundamentally different between now and when they launched blackberry 10 or are they you know gonna just try and muscle through 22 the blackberry 10 launch and so I think a lot of that is you know signaling or I think there's like backroom games or like a lot of the stuff that we're hearing them saying the media it's meant for us but it's also meant for you know investors and you know the other companies that they're talking to or trying to hold off right yeah and Heinz did mention on several occasions during the meetings day that discussions with their consulting banks are ongoing and they're still evaluating all their options which is you know the same language they've been using for to earnings calls now yeah so we'll see what happens with that it's a kind of language you use right up until the day that you announce some gigantic you know change yeah and even things they're saying you know they're talking about how they have no debt and all these things that don't typically matter in the sense of I mean really it's about all of this is becoming financial right all of these discussions are about like how are we as a company not what innovative cool things are we doing just every time he comes out and talks it seems more like he's saying here's why you should buy us and less here's why we're a cool company making cool products right right and someone in my twitter feet I apologize I'm not sure who it was off the top my head but somebody mentioned that rim rims closing stock price today puts them at a lower market cap then like the raw value of their cash on hand plus their their assets so I mean wow we have enough and they have no debt so at this point it's almost like it's kind of if you could if a company could come in and buy a and by rim for you know book value and not not pay a premium over the the market cap then it would just be like financially sound to do so based on that alone even if you just came in and shut down the company but but you know of course it doesn't work that way they'd have to pay a premium there there's lots of overhead involved with that but but still that's a really striking fat you know that and and very rare when you when you take it coming like Facebook which is the exact opposite of that where they have well like 100-something p/e ratio which is completely insane and absurd uh so yeah I mean they're just getting pummeled in every sense of the word right now it's gonna be a stretch I mean I posited the theory last week that well that blackberry 10 at least as we know what today will never see the light of day it's just not going to happen and I think that tourists in hinds may already know that I had was really really really I know that you this is your your thing but I just can't believe that they're not gonna at least put it on they've come so far they're dropping a whole bunch of money on developers all right well what do you mean they've come so far well it show me one shred of evidence of that besides blackberry jam blackberry jam we can get blackberry jam there was a story that they're dropped day that are investing I don't know 100 million or something I can't remember exactly what it was um and you know they're developing the OS it's probably close to ready well I got it now because it's not launching till 2013 now but my opinion is that the blackberry developer ecosystem is still small enough so that they would not hesitate to throw the entire thing to the dogs if the right company came along and said we're gonna snap you up and do whatever with you and I I strongly believe that I won one thing that we've talked about at least on a couple occasions now is the fact that I think that you know a palm one palm source type of situation might be happening here we're brims software business would would spin off as that the quote unquote healthy business and the hardware business would just kind of wither up and die on the vine I think that could happen I don't know I just don't see a scenario where rim in its current state can march through the next few quarters turning in terrible results every quarter and deliver blackberry 10 in q1 2013 and have it be a successful product I just don't see that as being a viable roadmap for them oh and by the way speaking of their their line on why it's a good thing they're launching 1 2013 it's like well there's a lot of noise in the queue for there's always you know chatter and there's all these you know companies vying for attention for the holiday quarter so if we you know wait and launch in q1 then we'll have everybody's attention to ourselves and we'll have a better launch yeah okay nobody wants to buy phones for Christmas and nobody ever announces anything at CES in January now right exactly nobody yeah well see that's the thing so rim is lining itself up to maybe be at CES in a big way maybe they'll try and do something at CES I mean how weird would that be that could be an event for them the weird thing about rim at trade shows CES included is that they always come with this huge fancy booth and don't announce anything yeah that's true with CES certainly truth mwc where they they they ran out like almost an entire hall to themselves and then don't show anything and the ctia is as well so yeah maybe maybe that could be their big coming-out party I don't think you know I posited before that maybe we see something big from the fall CGI a show which is enterprise-focused and they're keynoting there I think their cio is is keynoting there but at this point because of the delay i think that's probably a little early for them right um okay well actually you know as long as we're talking about Chris's predictions could we talk before we get into the big fight that we're going to have about the Galaxy Nexus we talked about this rumor that the Bloomberg put out about I was on developing and an android phone android based phone want to talk about the fact that I'm in Oracle is that is that what you're driving at I I have been calling this for like a year now I'm various podcast including twits forecast we can go in and watch watch the video which is preserved for all of posterity to see uh is come on it's pretty obvious I mean I can't take too much credit for this right like come out with an android-based tablet it's it's not a far stretch to think that you can come out with android based phone as well they have the the ecosystem that they've been working on I mean the way I know I've talked about this a lot before but the way they sort of set themselves up with Amazon Appstore ended up being really brilliant when they first announced the apps from like what are you doing amazon this is stupid nobody's gonna care about this turns out they they knew exactly what they were doing and they really executed well on it and now why not take full advantage of it I think Amazon is one of the few companies in North America that is positioned to make a meaningful entrance into the cellular market and that's saying something because it's probably one of the most difficult markets in the world to break into well that's the question right is how does like if Amazon does decide to do this and their whole route so far has been let's do our own thing and you know screw everybody else we're just gonna make how we want to make it and market it through amazon.com but like the phones don't really sell that way in the US so right ahead are they gonna have to show up and beg at verizon's feet and say carry this phone even though we have this otherwise kind of non functioning relationship so I think I think they have a couple things going for them one is uh they have the amazon wireless portal which is pretty successful and i think they can make a go at just selling through that as a channel and of course amazoncom is kind of important but uh Rick but nobody spends seven hundred dollars on a cell phone in the u.s. right but it so you know they already have these relationships built up through launching whispernet right so they they have a legacy relationship with sprint they have an active relationship with AT&T oh dude verizon by sprint or sprint oh my god amazon by sprint or tmobile about that think about that think about it no I I'm hey I'm totally on board sprint or or tmobile they could amazon i think could probably relatively easily swallow either one of those companies whole Wow and that would well so I mean the reason I brought it up her the idea is you know what is Amazon's metric for success in launching a phone right you know with the kindle you know they're gonna make some money on the hardware at once they hit you know scale and get there you know supply chain running smoothly and they're gonna make money on you know selling their services on you know the video the music and you know just buying stuff on the thing from amazon it's a really good system for that actually but you know is amazon hoping to get you know ten percent market share it's like what is what is there need to get into the phone business what what does it get them what do they what what or why would they be screwed if they didn't I think that because of the amount of development they've already put into the fire the cost of entry for Amazon is a lot lower than it would be for a lot of other companies uh so a you know even if they just look at it as an experiment IIIi think that there's there really isn't a whole lot to lose and I think they can do some very compelling things around the kindle branding but yeah i mean like at the end of the day you're absolutely right carriers still rule the US market and amazon is going a very difficult time getting around that unless they do by a t-mobile or sprint um and I wouldn't put it past them I really want we know that that DT would still like a regardless of what they say on the record i'm sure they would still like to sell t-mobile if the opportunity presents itself and amazon is one of the few companies is probably in a position to make that happen yeah and i think that the reason i think this is really interesting is because the whole content play they made at the kindle fire right where it's like the it's the razor and then their content is the blades that makes them all the money it makes so much more sense even with a phone than a tablet because it's the thing you have with you all the time and we all buy apps and we all buy content and if they can have this thing that's in your pocket on you at all times in your buying everything through amazon like that business prop zishan makes even more sense for them to sell a phone possibly the loss leader than a tablet does which is why I think it it makes a lot of sense yeah I just think a tablet is so much better for consuming Amazon's digital content than a phone I mean yeah maybe not for music but I mean is music really a big play for amazon I mean I know they've got the store but I don't think people are you know desperate to buy music from amazon's mp3 store desperate no but if you have a device it's there yeah and cloud player is good uh you know they certainly have the infrastructure in place to support all this they're you know they're ends drm free so you know whatever what are they gonna call it though that's what I want to know is it the kindle spark cuz if it's not I'm gonna be really angry it's gotta be looking to spark I mean the kindle match would that be good to shed well gosh this is spark they might run into some some trademark problems with Chevy dick maybe they'll by Chevy maybe no gloss a phone hey maybe they'll by Chevrolet and turn it into a phone company that's a torch oh that's blackberry nevermind maybe they'll buy rim maybe the way yeah amazon has been associated with i'm in rumors for a solid yeah 30 uh so yeah maybe that's still gonna happen who knows man um okay I it'll come and I it's just you know I'm gonna tell everybody not to buy one because you could get an android phone that's running a newer version of the OS that's fully participating in the ecosystem like the Galaxy Nexus like Galaxy Nexus this is gonna get interesting sparks are gonna hi yeah you plan on defending Vlad's point of view don't you that's exactly what I plan on funny but before we get into that argument we do need to talk about the the band that was imposed and then lifted uh yes it is now lifted in the Galaxy Nexus now available so it was temporarily unavailable and pulled from the Google Play website thanks to Apple winning and injunction against it for patent and the patent in question related to searching on the phone and supposedly Google is going to be rolling out and over the air software update to basically change its functionality and possibly remove the functionality of when you search for something on the phone it also brings up local results like Gmail and apps and so on and so forth um I mean I can't speak to the you know the legal stuff and the validity of the patent and who's going to win there but i can say that i have been using local search on a phone since the visor phone so there's that yeah i mean many of the the patents that Apple asserts in its in its various lawsuits around the world are a decade or more old right so this isn't necessarily an iphone patent it could be a mac OS 9 or a backhoe is a pad right right like one of the one of the patents in the apple motorola case dated back to I think 94 so um it's something to do with the notification screen and Android so yeah I mean I pants is that's an indiscretion there's actually a great piece on the site right now which you should read but not until this show is over because I don't want to lose your attention but if you go to the top of our site and look on the side you'll see a patent piece that is live that has been contributed to by the lovely Nilay Patel and Matt makari I believe who are our they updated it with new information from the path the time it was originally published and all the comments from this is my necks are still there I actually went through and cleaned up a bunch of dupes stuff and came across a comment from Richard Stallman actually Wow which seems legit legitimately him up so I mean I don't know the local search thing i do want to take the opportunity to complain that like Google search on Android for searching Google totally fine i use it all the time but and there are not a lot of phones where I find that like use typing into search locally is convenient or at all I know a lot of people use it on the iphone i find it slow and a pain like windows mobile blackberry and webos all did a better job and bass did a better job of like just start jamming on your keyboard to find stuff on your phone and I wish that I wish I enjoy to get there and now who knows how it's going to work with the software updates that's supposedly coming right in fact we just talked about this a couple weeks ago I think right the the engineer responsible for just type at palm is now back at Apple he came from Apple went to Palma now he's back at Apple so via the nexus of no pun intended of the universal search world is it's in cupertino reina Wow I'm sorry I didn't mean to do that that was I I'm not kidding when I say that was unintentional I kind of I really don't wanted to use the term next I kind of agree that like it doesn't really matter this seems like a feature that nobody cares about I don't like I see people everyone I know with an iphone has basically forgotten the fact that you can swipe left from the home screen to get to the local search and everything it's just like you know I you Siri for some of that stuff now but not really but it's just I don't know I feel like it's faster to do almost anything else then try to search that for something you know Anna such a convenient thing yeah yeah could be done really well I out how deeply this update will go and if it's going to affect third-party applications as well but one thing that I i noticed when i was testing a jelly bean galaxy nexus is that when you're doing the voice search you can you know you can turn on and off different search providers and like so for instance foursquare plugs into it so you can search for square places with your voice or with text of course and I don't know if those are going to be affected as well but that is is really cool like the fact that that companies like Yelp and Foursquare so and so forth can plug into that that system I need to try that it's pretty cool or yeah okay uh so the other thing about the Galaxy Nexus is a Christian glad put up a very contentious piece a point-counterpoint pink counter ping what are we calling it pink a pink and this happened yeah I just want to say this happened amazingly quickly you like you both clearly had this in the can like ready to go minutes after somebody suggested you're like oh it's done here we go here we go I've been restless my whole life so this is just glad being a go-getter I I would like to be able to take credit for this but it was sunday sunday afternoon and i said hey you know sometime we should do this thing about the fact that the Galaxy Nexus sucks that's not what I said cuz the galaxy next dose I'm praising um and and like 15 minutes later Vlad emailed me an entire argument that I I responded to and then we ended up turning into a piece and yeah why not monday so yeah it was basically 24 hour turnaround time okay so Chris you get you get one minute explain why the Galaxy Nexus is not the best android smartphone so I think I can best sum this up with my final pull quote in the piece which is that I learned to stop worrying and love the galaxy s3 used to be in the galaxy s2 days or in the HTC Rezound days that that I looked at skins as a scourge on the Android ecosystem that needed to be eliminated all costs and what I've now realized is that we've entered a very different phase we talked a little bit about this last week but we've entered a very different phase in androids existence right there is a OSP there's the open source project which which maintains the the core ultra plain vanilla android root not even Nexus devices are our stock Android if you want to use AOSP as your basis their Google Experience devices that are based on AOSP what I'm saying is that we're getting to the point where we need to elevate the the galaxy s3 for instance to the same parallel as a Nexus device galaxy s3 is running a samsung experience that is based on Android just as a Galaxy Nexus is running a google experience that is based on Android and they can both run Android binaries but Samsung na you know used to be that samsung will get left out of the part because they're designers were so bad at making a skin a UI but it's gotten to the point with the gs3 where that's no longer the case is it it's a good-looking UX and it works very well and I can no longer conclusively say that I prefer stock ICS to what I see on the gs3 of course i'd like to have jellybeans I mean I'm course I've used the android 4.1 gal connect your phone it's still don't get me wrong still great phone and 4.1 is great but it is not enough better than four-point-oh for me to drop back to that lower baseline of hardware that the Galaxy Nexus provides just to get it I need LTE I need 18 TLT I like the better display and the camera on the galaxy night camera yeah is the worst camera of any flagship phone manufactured in the last two years so there I've said my piece so okay we need to break out there there's two arguments here um one argument is like the Galaxy Nexus software is old and tired God says it's hardware excuse me is old and tired which is kind of hilarious because it's less than a year hold still but the camera is terrible and there's only the verizon LTE version and I mean the sprint LTE version I suppose but you know melty and sprint doesn't matter yet and you know I don't think you're wrong i think the camera is terrible i'm tired of it and so the question is can we give those things a pass if the hardware but you know based on the quality and software and yeah i think that jelly bean at least and even even stock an Ice Cream Sandwich feels faster and is a better skin so to speak for Android than what HTC and Samsung ACC i would agree HTC is not there yet was sense for gs3 I'm less convinced a nature UX is very good I hate the name but but what they've put together is very good I mean okay so let's say that there's a new galaxy or a new Nexus device out tomorrow that is jelly bean a better screen better camera LTE basically take a galaxy s3 and have it running stock jelly bean I mean the question is does the same argument apply know if if tomorrow uh Google came out with a galaxy s3 that was running stock jelly bean I would absolutely take it but the difference in quality between nature UX when Samsung is calling nature UX and stock Android is now sufficiently small so that it is possible to overcome the benefits of owning a Nexus device with the hardware alone which is what I'm I'm suggesting with the gs3 versus the Galaxy Nexus it if you're just talking about software then yes uh the Google Experience still wins but it's no longer a vast canyon of difference like it used to be in the GS two days I think the problem is though that for everyone who's not you know one of the three of us you buy a phone and you don't buy another phone until your contracts up and the problem is like whatever i buy today is going to be outdated in two years like that's just how does the hardware isn't going to be good in two years when I'm ready to buy a new phone but if i buy a Galaxy Nexus today the odds of my phone running the latest software are just infinitely higher on a nexus then they would be on the galaxy s3 and I blame Samsung a hundred percent for that because if Samsung would come out and say like we are going to ensure that you get the updates if not first at least in a timely manner they'd you know they'd blow everything out of the water because that's the only knock at this point because I agree i think the software is if not as good really really close and close enough that it's kind of a necklet negligible difference um but it if I have you know four-point-oh now and then for one is out and 4.2 might come out in four point three or five point 0 or whatever and you're probably still going to be stuck on four point oh because that's how it always happened but but so yes you're absolutely right but but what I'm saying and and I'm gonna take a lot of flack for saying this but I at some point you just need to give up and move on with reality just that I don't even think of the gs3 as an Android for device I think of it running as running a samsung operating system that's compatible with Android binaries and the this the sooner you you forget the notion that the gs3 is running ICS and should be running jellybean the the sooner you can be happy with the gs3 as a phone and yeah so the thing that I've been wanting to say on the podcast to keep myself doing it cuz I was gonna you know write an editorial but I just haven't got around to it is we should stop calling a ice cream sandwich ice cream sandwich when it's on non-google devices ice cream sandwiches stock Android 4.2 le bean is stock Android 4.1 and on those other stuff like the samsung touchwiz stuff and HTC Sense that's Android so they're running Android and you know like Krista they're compatible to binaries but it's not the same thing as jelly bean and you just sort of need to accept that they've gotten to the point where they're at least in the same ballpark experience wise as the stock google experience it's not you need to stop thinking of these devices as like you know they took the stock google experience and then ruined it with their crap it's that they they took the stock android base and put their experience on it and Google does the same thing they just happen to give that experience away to other customers if they want it right mostly not entirely right like gmail and android market and and stuff like that i am home as well like the nexus 7 ships with chrome i think that that by default if accompanied grabs they owe SP trunk code they're not getting chrome they're still getting the android browser in fact what's interesting is that jelly bean does actually have enhancements to the stock browser even though the Nexus 7 is in shipping with the stock browser shipping with chrome in its place ya know we we totally we wrote about that that that chrome was not going to be part of the the android open source product that's another google app just like the other google apps and like they're like chromium is still out there and you know companies are free to build their own but if you're not you know approved for you know the google experience in google apps and gmail and everything else on your android phone that includes chrome like it that doesn't come for free with android it's not part of the open source yeah yeah so it's it's I if you round the Android ecosystem three or four years and asked Andy Rubin if he thought that things were going to go this way I'm pretty sure he would have said no because it the way this is ended up playing out is really weird hey yeah I can't imagine this was ever Google's intention particularly with the fire but when you look at devices like the gs3 where Samsung has crafted this entire experience around AOSP and called it its own they're just a very very small step away from being able to break free from the Google Experience entirely which I'm sure is is is a probably a pain point for them because they they do need to get that sign off from ruben and and they don't have as much freedom as they would have if they were just going to be alone so that's it I mean I I find it very difficult to believe that that was ever Rubens intention well I think that Google now is going to be a really interesting thing to see if all these other companies that are you know building their own ecosystems ecosystems that compete directly with Google's ecosystems in terms of music stores and movie stores and even search you know Samsung's s voice vs google now will these companies when they move up to android 4.1 for you know the the buttery smoothness and all the performance enhancements will they also be including Google now and if they don't then I think that we can say that like there is the touch with skin the nature UX skin and there's the jelly bean quote unquote skin that includes Google stuff the problem with that though is that in a design sense what you're like for third-party apps they're still developing based on these new Android guidelines with the hollow themes and we've got these great swipe columns now at but it's and that's all based on for whatever you want to call it the google experience and so now what you're getting and this happened to me and was really jarring with the galaxy s3 was every app I downloaded looked kind of unlike the native experience of the phone because you're getting things that are designed to look great on the Galaxy Nexus and to go well with its fonts and its colors and just don't work at all with the nature UX and I think to me that's that's a problem yeah that that's that's fair and and in android 4.1 i get the sense that you know you matias duarte is obviously at a very heavy hand in shaping the UX of the platform since he got there but I think that that's really even more evident in 4.1 than it wasn't for point O which itself was a big jump and the colors there's a very methodical approach to how things are colored in 4.1 it the colors are very muted and um and you know frankly pleasing I mean it that the palette works very well and I would agree with you that Samsung has not mastered the art of a pleasing color palette and and that that's made more unfortunate by the fact that Samsung has had has been using amyloids more extensively and for longer than just about anybody else and Emma let's have a tendency to do really weird things with colors and particularly like oranges and reds so they tend to really pop and sang like a lot and but but that was that was a bigger prominent with the gs2 with the gs3 I really believe that their designers are doing the right things I feel like like Steve Kondik has had an influence Phil Mickelson from Android Central tells me that conduct actually is not working on android at all at samsung but but I don't know if I find that very difficult to believe it what else what do you do the the gs3 sizing baby tizen right did the gs3 skin looks so much like cm7 yeah thought your route yeah anyway I an amazing I'm back on the Galaxy Nexus you know since jelly bean and um I'm really happy with it i miss LTE and i miss a decent camera and those might pull me back to galaxy s3 or HTC One X um but uh you know i just i don't really like those skins the the galaxy s3 is better and the fact that it does you know a proper classic Ice Cream Sandwich multi-tasking menu I'm happy with although I really do miss um just having it be a single button which is why tell me that I'm crazy to be kind of interested in the h er atrix HD it looks pretty good to me my nuts is that okay no I've spent this whole morning trying to figure this whole day really trying to figure out what's wrong with this phone ah yeah cuz it's it's like why on earth is at $99 it has it checks all of the boxes I wanted to check including what seems to be a really scaled back skin like my Motorola's skin has always been really kind of overwrought and awful but they've scaled it way back and like i've been using a razr maxx with ice cream sandwich on it and it's a giant improvement and they still have the cool things like smart actions and you know this comes out with LTE and the big 720p display and like I I don't know i'm i'm into this phone yeah i mean if the processor is terrible and it's slow and like the skin turns out to be more over rot and slow than then you know what we're thinking then sorry about that then you know that'll suck but like it's you know a good sized battery it's right in between the razr and razr maxx is battery it it's got a great screen it's got eight megapixel camera like there's nothing on paper that makes me go I don't want this like it might be my next phone so I biggest concern is so there are there are a couple things actually this ties back into the Galaxy Nexus which I'm going to continue a harp on for many podcasts but I was surprised at how much the on-screen buttons bothered me on the Galaxy Nexus after I've been using the gs3 for a while which really shocked me because I'd always assumed that that this was like you know a big step in the right direction moving to those soft buttons but you don't realize how much screen real estate those buttons actually take it would be one thing if the Galaxy Nexus had a longer to split like an actually physically longer display then these other devices but it doesn't just so you just eat up what is it a hundred pixels or something permanently devoted to these soft buttons and motorola's doing that as well with the razr HD so that's one thing to think about i guess i don't know i don't know that i really have that particular problem i love the physical buttons on the gs3 like and the fact that those made it to the US was the best thing about that phone if you ask me but yeah but I really I've always been a fan of the on-screen buttons I feel like I trained myself just kind of where to tap no matter what so I don't really notice and with the capacitive buttons or whichever it just feels like it's kind of the same people are saying it's this giant advantage there were a couple of comments that were like super excited about it and I don't really get that but I don't I think it's I don't think it's a huge issue well I mean I just like it because it's a more intelligent layout right i mean you get you know the back button turn into a down button when you got the keyboard up the menu button appears down there where it ought to be and it's one tap to multitasking instead of having to hold down button if someone were to you know just give us the Galaxy Nexus is basic button layout of back home multitasking and then I don't know hold down back to get the menu to pop up I'd be perfectly final physical buttons and getting that extra screen real estate but I just I find that it works better to have that button layout and stock ICS / jellybean devices are the ones that give me that button layout actually what I would love to see and I suspect there's there's already a rom for the International gs3 that does this and if there isn't there should be soon because it's really obvious but what I would like to see is the menu button fungus only replaced with multitasking one tap multitasking and then like reprogram the ROM so that it it displays the menus in the action bar like you would expect on a Galaxy Nexus which can't be that hard it's got to be just a flag somewhere in the in the operating system because you know right now that weird thing about the gs3 is said that the phone knows not to show the the the menu buttons in the action bar at the top and instead instead reassigns that functionality to the physical menu button which I've mixed feelings about I can see why Samsung did it but I don't know how I feel about it so they if they just turned that into a multitasking button got the operating system display that the menu button in the action bar is normal that would be huge I would love that so uh breaking news apparently the sprint galaxy s3 got a quote unquote security update that also happened to wait for it remove local on device search results according to android central haha super fast um and a bummer but like we said that search sucks anyway so right yeah like I mean that could start I mean okay two thoughts one week should we might start seeing it on other devices pretty soon and to like you know if you can push out an update that quickly really that changes the core functionality the phone how about how about some jelly bean action how about not waiting se wait making its way to year and a half for that well it just goes to show you like it proves it you know it proves what I think everybody kind of knew already which is that the what really takes a long time with some of these rom updates is not the fact that it actually takes that long but the fact that there's no there's no financial incentive for either the OEM or the carrier to rush that update when they have newer phones that they'd rather be selling right that whereas this update is on a brand new phone that is at injunctive risk presumably right so the you know that that's what that's what got them moving but you know rest assured you're not going to see jelly bean updates for the gs3 a month from now it's going to be six months if we're lucky so what we it is like Congress to come out and say if you haven't updated your phone in four months you can't sell in America anymore and then all of a sudden everybody would update I'm running for Congress guys that's at yeah I i support your platform one hundred percent David I I think this is a good idea I mean I mean okay we saw I mean you know the Android for pointing out for the the eighteen t Galaxy Note um today yeah actually yeah really out today and I mean we saw that leave three months ago and it basically is unchanged since that leaked three months ago so I mean it's not just that you know there's not financial incentive but it's also you know it's it scarier stuff but I think Chris you got it exactly right like the fact that this was at risk for an injunction as totally what's going on here yeah but but so so tell us about your experience with the the Galaxy Note refresh because you tested it did you not am I crazy yeah I 10 no no I tested it we've got got a video up of it and it's fast and the multitasking works fine and you know they added a whole bunch of stuff s note which you know which is what most of what they're pushing on this update is so you can search bowl from alpha and drop draw shapes and during math equations and you know it's cute but I still feel like there's not a strong enough app ecosystem to support the S Pen for me to be able to justify owning a giant phone um but you know all that said I still have a soft spot for the note I mean I use it as my main phone for a few days um and you know as long as you're not holding up to your head it's fine you've almost bought that thing like five times now I know it's just I don't feel one or two things is going to happen dieter either you're going to eventually cave and buy it or I think more likely the second the note 2 comes out you're going to own it well isn't the rumor that it's gonna have an even bigger screen yeah 5.5 inches right Oh 5.5 is just the beginning just wait till you get into the sixes that's true the note the note 9 will just be like a table right well actually you know I'll just I should just start using the nexus 7 as a phone yeah there was a period where if you google did a Google image search for tablet phone I was the number one result holding the original Galaxy Tab 7-inch up to my head now of course it's you know there's a million of these things that have come out but there's there's a picture of me out there going like hey with a with a tablet I remember that picture I've seen a picture that's um yeah that original oh yeah was a seven inch device it's easy right like it it's easy to kind of like consider the 10.1 is the first galaxy tab but no there was that 2.3 a galaxy tab from a couple years back and I like the thing about that and we were talked about this before typing on that was great typing out on the the Nexus 7 is great that it's just really nice it's like a landscape keyboard on a phone but in a portrait orientation on a tablet I really like it and and David correct me if i'm wrong i think there is a video floating around of you talking on an ipad no no it's give me a pad phone I can neither confirm nor deny no children that somehow like it was one of those it was made into a gift just that one scene of me and just holding up the tablet to my head and I friends of mine who don't read The Verge don't know what the PadFone is have never heard of technology are sending me this gift to this day being look look at this three or so on the internet and that will be my my legend forever will be that gif of me being hulu but you know by the time David by the time you die they're gonna have the technology to put like a animated gifs on on tombstones and so that will actually be on your tombstone that's um I'm living until that happens yeah just a matter of time they could do one of those um I don't know what they call those those like parallax effect things were like when you know when you look back and forth like it it moves I guess they could turn that made Jeff into one of those and and that would be a very low-tech way I can walk across my tombstone it would be me holding it up that'd be pretty good so I of course I'm more of like an e-ink to mr. that's true i have a question related to this this software patch and the the ban one of our commenters asked on the post we just wrote from the android central report and said does this affect stuff like voice actions such as call John or navigate to Joshua Topolsky house which I do constantly um does it I actually don't know cuz that's I mean that's a really it's the same thing basically right it's searching your contacts and the web and your phone book and all this stuff but it's just not text does it affect that I don't know until I can actually test this out on a Sprint Galaxy Nexus myself directly only one way to find out it's true it's just to try to navigate to Joshua Topolsky house and see what I by later are our chat is filled with amazing Jeff's right now i will i will bet you i will bet you one dollar that samsung has submitted this patch to all for receiving all five however many US carriers are carrying the gs3 right now we're in the next couple weeks and it's just a question of how quickly they they approve the patches sprint was first but uh i guarantee you so it's good to be a verizon customer right now is what you're saying cuz you'll ever see the patch or a chef yeah uh ya know this will actually be a very interesting test let's let's wait and see how long it takes eighteen t and verizon who are notoriously the slowest for for approving these firmware updates let's see how long it takes them to push these out i'm really curious hmm yeah well speaking of carriers dragging their feet if you haven't read neil eyes editorial five years after the iphone carriers are the biggest threat to innovation you absolutely must yeah but that's all i have to say i mean it's it's it's full of truth and goodness and like we've got examples just from this week about it like so they rise and lock the bootloader on the galaxy s3 why I mean you know that they're protecting you know their customer service reps from dealing with Android hackers I guess is the reasoning but nobody else is bothering to do it it's just verizon and it's you know it it's a hurdle that everybody can get over but it's still like wah wah why are you bothering well yeah you yeah and the droid incredible 4G LTE is an awesome example of that too because it's like it hcc made a bunch of really good phones and you said this in your view DHEC made a bunch of really good phones and then it seems like Verizon Colin was like well we want that but not as good because we have these other phones we want to sell so just make us kind of a crappier version yeah and so the thing that drives me crazy about the droid incredible 2 he did we talk about it on the podcast last week like it could be a good phone it it's really close to being a really good phone I'm like you know the form factor would be really nice for some people but like sense and then some of the extra stuff on top of that just Shh try as we create and so if the question is does it make well one of my questions is does it make an appropriate resound successor and I'm not sure it does because the Razon is 720p and this is qhd right right it makes an appropriate droid incredible successor right right which you know it's called droid incredible so there you go yeah um yeah I mean I mean obviously you guys read knee-highs piece have you got any additional insight or stuff you want to say about it either I know it was talked about quite a bit on the verge cast so we're kind of getting repetitious here but yeah yeah it's just it it it really hit home uh and and it's it's spot on and and I think that you know I wish that I had a very succinct follow-on to how we can go about fixing this and Neela and I have been talking about this past few days you know how can we how can we move the industry and the discussion in the right direction in a positive direction that doesn't make everyone want to cry yeah iiiii don't have the answer yet but um you know there are so many extremely powerful political forces at play here that prevent this industry in the u.s. from being competitive in a way that is truly to the consumers benefit that it's very it's just kind of depressing and there's don't get me wrong there's some great people in in in high places that are fighting for the consumer people like a free press and public knowledge are are in Washington and they're there they're doing an excellent job what I'm on all their PR blast and they're doing a really good job of calling out the the questionable choices that are being made by the SEC in the DOJ in the end the lobbying forces that are trying to work to get the wrong piece of legislation push through but as an uphill battle and and there are many you know the the failure of the AT&T t-mobile deal was a very powerful pro-consumer message but actually this is a segue that it didn't intend to get to but we kind of stumbled into it do it it looks like the FCC is now going to approve Verizon's purchase of AWS spectrum from a consortium of cable companies spectrum co which we've been writing about pretty extensively for the past six months and the reason why this is such there are several reasons this is such a controversial deal one is that there are other carriers that are better suited to get this spectrum including t-mobile they were a very very loud opponent of this deal as a result until a deal was struck in the past couple weeks that would end up like it's a multi-part deal it's kind of like an NBA trade deal there there are seven there are seven different things that need to fall into place in order for this this tragic transaction to conclude but basically t-mobile would end up getting a pretty significant chunk of that AWS spectrum if Verizon were allowed to complete the spectrum code deal but the other really controversial part of it is that tied into the spectrum acquisition there are deals that would have verizon cross-marketing its services in comcast and time warner locations and vice versa and the concern there is that it dis incentivizes verizon from building out fios in locations that are currently served by Comcast or Time Warner Cable and the then result is they end up with less competition for really important vital services like a landline broadband and so this is you know it that there are two different organizations that are looking at this yielders the FCC that is looking at the spectrum side then there's the DOJ that's looking at the competition implications the DOJ looks less poised to sign off on this deal then the FCC does right now and I think that kind of mirrors public sentiment this is the spectrum side of it isn't quite as controversial as the the copy the the cross marketing deals are so and DOJ is expected rule in August it's it's a mess as is every spectrum policy thing in Washington but we're kind of keeping an eye on it right now we'll let you know how it goes bottom line is that it's a very scary time to be in this business like every single deal that happens in Washington has literally a hundred different implications some which are short-term some which are very very long term and I always try to find ways to get people engaged in these policy stories when I write about about them on the site can be very difficult because it's hard to express why this stuff matters you know five or ten years down the road but you know we have some big spectrum auctions coming up I think there are some later this year i'm not mistaken and and we we just need to stay engaged on this stuff because it the the spectrum crunch over the past couple years i think is really sort of put this in the spotlight but people still haven't made the connection between i can't get data on my iphone and all these weird deals that are happening in Washington every single day and yeah the carriers have all the power innovation is being stifled I totally agree with everything Neil I said in that piece and it's all tied into these weird policy things that are happening constantly so it's yeah it's it's not just like I can't get data on my iPhone I've got no jeebies it's you know I'm paying 25 cents a pop for text messages yeah I can't do I don't interoperable video chat it's I can't take my phone from tmobile and use it on sprint like oh well you know that's because they've got incompatible spectrum and you know they're using different radio technologies opposed exactly and those are those are problems that aren't unfixable those are like that you don't have to accept that baseline if a problem like you know phones having different incompatible radio technologies is like oh well that explains that well but there's still something that made that happen it's um I've heard it's like words they played I when I was when I was teaching English like you know that I try and like explain why some you know short story matter you know why is he on the bridge and like well the author chose to put him there those words didn't just magically appear on the page against the authors will link the author chose to make that happen and these incompatible radio things like when they were setting up that stuff sure there's there's a few things that are like unintended consequences but by and large the company's verizon and AT&T especially they're sitting with pretty much where they want to be they want to get more spectrum they want to you know change some stuff around but the sort of technical hassles that you experience and the pricing that you're experiencing on AT&T and Verizon especially like they set it up that way and they want it that way it's not like you know that's just oh that happened I guess we had no control of that that's a sick world that we live in the world that we live in is a world that they helped set up and we could set up a different world if we wanted to AT&T has been fighting very hard in Washington over the past two years to prevent 700 megahertz interoperability from becoming law and it wasn't until earlier this year that the FCC agreed to even look into the issue so that's that's a perfect example right that that we could have we absolutely could have radios that can support all these 70 megahertz bands the technology exists but because 18teen verizon are such powerful lobbying forces and are pretty much able to get what they want that issue has been that can has been kicked down the road repeatedly and it's not the type that there are no technical issues but the impetus to solve those technical issues has been significantly impeded by the fact that 18 teen verizon see no need to solve them and and actually we wrote about this a few weeks ago ceasefire which is a really small carrier in the southeast filed a pretty damning lawsuit with some wild claims that AT&T and Qualcomm and I think Motorola and they named a bunch of company as as as colluding on preventing 700 megahertz interoperability from from coming to be and it's really interesting reader it reads like high drama and I think it is and I I truly believe that summer all this stuff is is is happening behind the scenes that's what I thought was the most interesting just go kill her yeah right that was what I thought was so interesting that knee lights piece was uh that he had spoke to a verizon spokesperson and this is after he's talking about how if companies like HTC and Samsung were able to compete at the consumer level the carriers to turn into dumb pipes and then they'd have to compete and that would be you know good for all of us and terrible for them and then the response is not oh there are technical challenges the response is from a verizon spokesperson there's a business model that needs to be cared for uh and so it's like that's that's the most I don't know it's about a damning a thing as you could say I think where you get to this point where it's like that's all the matters like we make a ton of money from making your life a lot harder and there's no reason for us to keep or for us to stop making a ton of money so why would we right yeah yeah I think the most striking thing that Neil I pointed out in that piece and this is something that we all need to remember is that these companies don't own this spectrum they are licensing it from the federal government and in turn it is property of the American people so it is on us as US citizens to demand that these these companies be good stewards of the of this of the spectrum which is a national resource and a precious resource that can twist Chris Chris I'm sorry I want to pay attention what you're saying but I think I see some American Idol news and so I need to go some American Idol news I just say I'd like the problem with this this whole issue is it's really hard to connect the effects on the consumer with the really boring dry spectrum discussion and like you know we rant about it on the on the show we write about it on the site but you know unless we get to like a sope internet shut down kind of moment with this stuff I mean one we need a unified policy to promote and to like there needs to be like a real visceral connection between the pain that you know we're feeling and like what's causing it and there's you know three or four steps between those things that where it's really easy to rationalize you know rationalize it away and right it's just you know easier to you know pay attention to the next top new phone that's that's coming out and not think about the crazy Mecca nations that limit it and keep it on one carrier and so on I feel like the answer is we need to just tell everybody to go to Europe for like 20 minutes ah because they seem to have nailed it um and this occurs to me every time I'm editing a review from one of the guys in the UK and they never really mentioned the price and they never mention like a particular carrier and I'm always like oh you forgot those parts and it's like no they didn't if it's just you just buy the phone and then you use it wherever you want to and it's not you just it's just not a thing that they're terribly separated from each other you're David the stock response that someone from the CEA or ctia or any other American organization or carrier in the cellular business will tell you the stock response is that's all well and good but in recent years the US has innovated far faster than Europe or even Asia in the wireless space and the rebuttal to that is yes but it has evolved and innovated in a very bizarre and consumer hostile way and we're starting to send a bottle to that is your mom yes the rebuttal to that and all other arguments is your mom no I mean there are a couple dieter infects your point earlier about how do you get this in consumers faces make the connection between spectrum and real-world problems I think that we're starting to see some some very some very real-world effects that any consumer can relate to you right one is in in the city of Chicago as in many other places around the country New York City certainly you cannot you literally cannot between the hours of 8am and 6 p.m. on a weekday get HSPA data in downtown Chicago it's not just slow it doesn't work I mean it literally doesn't work and I this has been going on for at least year now and that's why I can't go back from an LTE phone so that's one effect right where you get where consumer can say why cant i send this email on my iphone oh let me tell you why it's because our entire system is is hosed and you need to think so that's what I'm the other is you know to say t-mobile being unable to get the iphone or US cellular being being unable to carry almost any competitive device outside the gs3 which congrats to them by the way because that's pretty big one for them but yeah I think that there are finally some very consumer-facing ways that you can relate wide spectrum matters and why it's important and I just should have podcasts down with that no I mean you know we're gonna we're gonna wrote about this again in three weeks and we're still not going to have a revolution that's fine well we'll have these small steps and hopefully we'll get them moving in the right direction at least a couple of times ok oh and actually I want to talk about good news we're gonna end up good news this week I swear that is the goal and the first piece of good news David is the optimus 4x HD from LG the first piece of cake is it LG learned how to make cell phones so you're saying basically yeah yeah it's it's like it's that bad right no it's it's actually it's great on like I did it was it's been really fun because I've reviewed a bunch of different LG phones over the last you know six months and they always had one thing just horribly wrong like the the LG nitro remember when I wrote the review like the first comment said so basically this phone with cyanogenmod would be the best thing ever because the software was just awful and then I reviewed the spectrum which was super fast and had a really great display and just you just touched it and wanted to stop touching it forever and then they've had a couple of other phones that were underpowered or had outdated software or both or whatever and then finally you read the spec sheet of the optimus 4x HD and it's like oh my gosh it has all of the things that I want it to have it has new software it has a new processor it has good build quality it's big and has a nice display all this stuff and I writing this review was was almost bizarre because I got to the end of it was like wait I didn't really hate anything and I just I kind of expected to having reviewed a bunch of these phones and I got to the end and it was like they did all of the things that they're supposed to do uh they their software has gotten a lot better again it's the same trend we're seeing with HTC not as much but Samsung and a couple of other companies kind of pulling their skins back and saying like androids doing a really good job we think we can augment it in certain places and sometimes they're right and sometimes they're wrong but it's a much better approach and the hardware has gotten almost universally with high-end phones it's just so fast at this point that the Android has kind of become the limiting factor in the performance of a cell phone so as long as you have kind of the recent high-end specs you're going to be fine there but I really enjoyed using this phone and there are a number of cool nifty things about it I really like the way it does NFC on some of the software and i'm just i'm a fan and i don't know when the phones coming to the US it hasn't been announced here it's just in Europe and I believe Asia right now but if it does like it's it's a real competitor for the first time and they've had big splashy launches for phones that I don't think we're very good and this one could actually be awesome well this time LG had a big phone in the US I mean like a real like oh wow LG in the US Wow g2x I think with less yeah ok Jenny died while on it sling I mean when when the g2x was announced everyone was like who this is going to be like the hot like you know it because at that time like dual core was still like a really novel concept and uh it appeared to run something close to stock froyo and so that that was a really big deal and it ended up just being a complete dud of a phone I owned one for a while and it just it brings back nightmares but LG is weird because they've always been you know a half step behind the the big names in android right like they're half step behind Samsung they're half step behind HTC but not really I mean they were the first to the table with a dual-core device they're right there in the in the quad core race they've been doing 720p as long as anybody to you right so they just need to get their act together and produce a a holistically good device and maybe this is a this is the turning point for them and they need a hit I mean LG I mean to your point eater I mean they haven't had a meaningful hidden in ages yeah and and I are you sad that you're not going to be able to say that about the LG vue coming to the US the this letter that's that was a cheap shot yeah yeah the yeah for by 3i love that um no I i'm actually i'm intersted in trying the 4x HD i would i would be pleased especially now that you know i'm apparently with the galaxy nexus happy being on HSPA again i'm really not but i got Wi-Fi most places one last thing i wanted to bring up the windows phone 7.5 refresh the tango update is coming to lumia 900 which is fine that's great on ATT but as mad as some people might be about lumia not getting windows phone 8 and as unhappy as I maybe with some of the core apps that i need the fact that nokia is coming out with pink version before an orange version like I just give up or dead I don't care pink is on you niggas new white row these are also not going to be on sale ever because i'm going to buy all of them every single you're buying out Nokia's entire stock of pink of me yes no question no mines gonna be next right they're not gonna they're not gonna give you my orange phone they're gonna come out with a zune brown version oh you know what's gonna happen no but but here's the thing about the zune brown is that it was a double shot brown underneath green acrylic like a clear acrylic right so it had kind of like a cool look to it I guess did it though did it cool and air quotes okay here we go I I don't know no I would totally use a pink Lumia and and feel very good about it I truly believe that pink is the new white I agree with you dieter if they came out with like a bright orange I would be very happy with that as well but I could see going with the pink I Amy I could but I mean I'll just I'll just wish it was orange the whole time so yeah I never yellow yellow would be amazing too yep would be cool actually wasn't there there was supposed to be a yellow lumia 800 ya did it disappear I think it did it may have disappeared so i think i think the yellow was one of the colors that was supposed to be glossy instead of matt and it fell off the face of the earth and never came out maybe or maybe I'm making up this entire story but I seem to recall there was something about it taking a while for it to come out it was gonna be in a second batch I can't remember yeah ya do ya I think Nokia makes these Lumias in batches of like a couple weeks each and they switch between colors and I don't know what happened said the yellow doesn't it yeah I don't think they ever got around to the yellow which is a bummer because that was that would've been awesome yeah you won't i pulled out this week that i love all over again and want to use full time is the n9 there are two reasons for that and neither of them have anything to do with me go one is the size which yeah is actually it's it's like the perfect size for that style phone the 900 that the more I used Lumia 900 the more I realized that it is actually a bit big for that style of device and the the integrated glass it is missing from the 909 and 800 both have that too is that the cyan that they use on the n9 is little darker than it is on the 900 and in my opinion actually looks a little bit better so physically i think that the n9 is actually the purest and best implementation of that design language um again neither of these have anything to do with me go whatsoever but but i just want to point out that it's a it's a physically gorgeous device you sound like josh Josh just bought I believe on ebay a palm pixi and has definitely decided that he's going to use it as his phone forever and I feel like equally bad for both of you that you like oh he gave up on it I think already did he already has already done with it hasn't even come yet and he's over it yeah no I think he lasts about 12 hours and had six those hours he was asleep I mean they're so cheap the Pixies are so cheap you can get unlocked GSM Pixies on amazon for like fifty bucks sixty bucks so I mean like what why wouldn't you own one of these in fact I'm gonna buy one right now since this this show is over I that is the first thing I'm doing is buying a pixie I like it ah question though related to me go should I care about this nokia staff leaving to build me go phones thing the java thing yeah uh though i think this is probably going to have about as much success as the Phoenix project or whatever that webos thing is but but Java has one thing going for it which is that I think this is gonna be another one of my crazy theories I loved about these crazy theories on the show I believe that Jolla is actually a nokia skunk works well it like it's a shell opening that and it's it's it's like they're they're go bag like if everything goes to hell in a handbasket at nokia jolla is there a jection seat i and III think that that they are starting the staff up jalwa in the event that they need to throw all caution to the wind and and bail out at all does yeah this is it was totally like a clear and present danger situation like like Elop he he's got plausible deniability on it he sort of you know those guys are gone then someone brought about thing and he said you know I I'm gonna prove this thing in very vague language and I don't want to hear anything more about it and now there's a whole bunch of you know lower you know old school nokia people that are totally running it I totally see it I'm with you yep that's that's I'm telling you man it's gonna be a I think it could be a beautiful mission for it is gonna introduce it it's gonna be amazing if no key did some really amazing things with the user experience in the in the in the end nine that have been completely lost and and when we when we first talked to nokia execs about how they're going to move some of the their UX innovations from from harmison to Windows Phone they gave some wishy-washy answer is on like oh well you know we have we have a lot of say in the future of Windows Phone and how that's going to develop and you know it's we want to see some of those innovations come to a nose phone and in Windows Phone a don't really see any influence from me go whatsoever and and that's a shame because they did some really cool things so maybe they're now saving those directions for jello but again this is all in that little note i'm wrapping up because we've got stuff to go to tonight i believe so thank you very much David for joining us on podcast Vlad's absence and if people want to follow you on twitter i'm gonna get it wrong it's Pierce David Wright that's me that's awesome i'm back on chris's e power will be back next week with another special guest it'll be amazing thanks so much for watching everybody thanks guys you