Gadgetory

so we talked a lot about cell phones and carriers on the show but we don't really talk about our thoughts and our feelings about where we are in the universe and where this tiny little orb is that's hurtling through space this rough blue little marble in a universe that's rapidly expanding and heading towards a cold uncaring oblivion where no one sees us no one cares we're just dying and gone we might talk about that of the original so actually on a related topic we're probably gonna talk about nokia stay tuned for the Virgin Mobile show hi I'm Peter bone Oh blood cell i'm david pierce i'm chris ziegler actually I see there it's really good to be here you are makes you more mysterious to have a different name underneath your your face it done you nobody knows who I am it's great this is a virgin mobile show it's episode 9 for the week of july twenty third and lads back and we are incredibly happy to have him back and he's wearing a shirt which is which is great disappoint and he has that yeah isn't that great all over in two weeks ago yeah I am so I don't know if you guys heard but my apartment flooded like a month ago it's a sprinkler went off in the bathroom and most my stuff was fine but i did lose like my electric razor so i bought a new one and i decided okay I'm gonna shave this beard off and um my girlfriend had you know complained about the beard a little bit so she comes home after I do this favor shave it off and she's like wow you you look kind of stupid you should grow that beard back just I wasn't gonna take it I 3mon so just cool it's okay we're saying this is a virtue and all that stuff yeah you can make for me it's just a case of not shaving this morning yeah I like to think that's like 45 minutes of Vlad growing his hair yeah just this is the black 15 minutes shadow I like it's a blad shaved right before the mumble show so he actually just constantly walks around with the razor just all the time just shaving Wow so in terms of news this week it was pretty much all financial results financial results financial results um we we got from yeah we've got it from verizon AT&T and like they do they're making a ton of money I think verizon the big news out of verizon was that half they finally reached the halfway point for smartphones so hassard postpaid subscribers are using smartphones they added almost 900,000 new subscribers as well and I don't even know what their profit was with something ridiculous I mean it always is yeah 15 and Asian maybe he's almost feet ahead of that 18 he's a bit ahead of variety in terms of smartphones grabbers is proportion of the overall number i believe 480 is now sixty one point nine percent so they're few percentage points ahead which may be 0 into the iphone and the fact that AT&T had so much more time to start selling that to people before verizon maybe i don't know a european I don't even know was verizon yeah uh what's up what's verizon's percentage oh yeah uh no I just mean what is that is that a thing yeah you're just jealous you coming up my jokes I promise to have funny ones by the end of podcast you're just jealous because carriers don't control every moment of your life all the time and you wish that they did is really what it is that is correct I think I do find myself family I do find myself in existential moments where I wish your mobile carrier would just step in and take care of me we get by taking my money right so the thing about 18 tease results is they they're bragging that there are poo which we have talked about before the average revenue per user is a still getting larger it's the highest in the industry they're making what like 60 50 65 bucks per customer which is and that's per month I'm assuming that's pretty high I don't know I it's we complained a whole lot about eighteen t last week with the the rumor that they might be charging extra for facetime access and I mean I don't know their companies they're making money they're making plenty of money I I don't have any sympathy with with profits like these that you know they don't have the resources to build out their networks and and get the spectrum that they need and I'm absolutely on board with you and here's the thing that comes to my mind one thing that I thought about today when we addressed the 18th earrings it was I believe for the quarter they had 3.9 billion dollars in profit net profit native everything else and the thing you have to consider with that is that 3.9 billion over three months is over a billion a month I mean it's really complicated mathematics but ok and that's how much the company's making in just pure unadulterated cash falling down into their coffers like this isn't reinvestment money and I don't even know that it's necessarily dividend money I don't know what AT&T is position is it serves a student it's just cash so for example if AT&T wants to reinvest if AT&T wants to make investments into infrastructure that stuff actually shows up as an expense on a tts you no-account sheets so when you see 3.9 billion in net profit what you're saying isn't money that is potentially go to be reinvested it's the stuff that's ATT investors well I don't know but investors again that fence didn't but I mean what it what how this profit actually go it's actually good point which I don't even know like you get pure profit you don't do a dividend who gets that money but the point is it doesn't stay in the industry it doesn't benefit or help anybody it just kind of gets sucked out you know so that's the money that comes out of your pocket it doesn't come back in to rebuild the industry or to build up 4g infrastructure it just go someone we are such communists I mean I am let me screw it like how is it beneficial okay we have this and and this is the thing that people say about capital is it's a great great season for extracting value right but the point is okay we've extracted 3.9 billion dollars worth value and then it just kind of disappeared the thing about profit is it doesn't benefit anybody like if profit in all circumstances was reinvestment money that would be awesome terrific like if every single quarter AT&T just reinvested like nearly four billion dollars into everything into systems and then AT&T came back and said actually guys we don't have money we need to raise your prices I think people would understand you know but at the moment I mean as European like one of the big scary things for me if I ever thought about really came to the US was how horribly I will be raped by American carriers and the fact that I would even have a choice about who's doing it to me right it will be a teensy of horizon and it probably just a teensy because verizon cdma and that's horrible you know yeah I need a phone that i can swap sims in and out of well I think the theory like the the counter-argument to this seems to be that Verizon and AT&T come out and say well we invested all this money and infrastructure and you know we built these networks and now you're paying off all this money that we already put in but at the same time I can't imagine that you know if they're taking in four billion dollars in profit every quarter that that money you know that they're constantly paying for this infrastructure that they already paid out for and eventually you know they've paid it off and now it's just as you said filling somebody's pockets and going nowhere but then again lots of companies have excess money apple has whatever 100 billion dollars in cash and we've all been for ya ya know well the director sample doesn't doesn't least spectrum from you know the people of the United States disparity so I mean yeah there's this is so good he know I was gonna say there's a there used to be a history when 18t had monopoly of the company feeling like it had a public duty and a public trust to serve you know the phone lines and provide good call quality and you know respective their customers basically and now that it's been broken up and you know we live in the world we live in in the US it seems like there's there's less of that and so I mean it's you know we can't begrudge a corporation to earn profits that's what a corporation does that's what it's for that's what their charters say but nevertheless it's still like just in terms of thinking about you know the next time AT&T or Verizon comes out and you know spins a poor me story I'm just saying like I don't have any sympathy for that no agreed and the point you raised is exactly why I'm having this mini rant and I promise to have a full-size ramp late to run today I homes and did the point where exactly the important one which is there AT&T and Verizon operating systems which are fundamentally important to American people and to the American economy like if you don't have reliable 3g and now soon 4g networks you're falling behind you can't compete economically and a big strength of the united states is the fact that particularly with LTE and particularly with myself being in the UK and see how delayed that rollout is you know you you're one of the leading nations you in terms of rolling out ot like Verizon AT&T of actually done that really aggressively and really well so credit to them for that but the fact is they're still operating something that is fundamental to the nation in the country so in those circumstances you kind of have to impute an extra level responsibility on these companies whereas Apple I mean what would the hell if Apple stops making iPads and iPhones you know i just might shock a lot of people but the world isn't gonna end right we American economic competitiveness isn't gonna end because there are no more iphones there are replacement-level devices for iPhones and iPads and all of these things but there is no replacement level alternative for verizon's 3g or 4g network or AT&T which actually if i can come come up with a very small little digression to do with the olympics in the UK they had a similar snafu if you like where they privatize the security around the Olympics and they hired out private company and they pick the one that of a lowest bid the lowest cost like they do like you do and then what ended up happening is that now the government is having to call in soldiers from the army to fill in because the private company couldn't provide a security personnel she's just bring it um and my conclusion putting the two things together is that when you have something that's really fundamental to a country you kind of have to think long and hard about why you would ever want to privatize it you know if it's so important that the government can't let it fail such as Olympic security and at least in my opinion mobile networks then maybe the government should be running those things in the first place and then maybe as teacher says guys are getting T and Verizon kasuba do their private operations by leasing that from the government or from mistake do you treat them like utility we've got you know power companies yes honors where I mean the those are all run by private companies and most countries at least in the US and they're just well regulated and yeah yeah so I mean yeah does one thing that's my thinking you kinda have to regulate either regulate tightly oh just run it run it by the government I mean I could say that it was companies to get here in the UK yes they run private operations but they don't do particularly well I don't really see the whole point of privatization seriously I just a hundred percent taxes and let's go information cording to their ability to each according to what Blatt feels like I mean that's yeah I'd sign up for that actually I've been on there yeah um another earnings story came out nokia so before we go no I have one more thing that this is and this is just occurring to me as I read over the earnings things again um do you guys think that it seems to me from reading these earnings reports that 18t still has a huge iphone advantage and that that's kind of driving AT&T and I wonder like they you know everybody sells the iphone now you can buy the iphone on US cellular now but it seems like you know 18t sold more iphones than verizon did and thus I think in a related note it's smart phone numbers are higher it's like a lot of the new people who come are buying iphones more than are buying android phones percentage-wise versus verizon and it seems like you know people still think of ATT as the carrier where you buy an iphone then i would make a good point though H&T don't actually say how many iphones are sold as usual with these financial reports they're being tricky with their wording so they say this sojourn quotes of 5.1 million smartphones so sales but they've activated three-point-something million iphones which means we don't really have a direct comparison between a direct way to say of AT&T smartphone sales they've sold so many iphone because for example you could you could have bought one in Europe we could have bought one elsewhere portable to AT&T network you could be a replacement device that you're talking about so we don't necessarily know but I think your point David is solid that I do feel similarly that people think of ATT first when they think about that's kind of taking a while to finish the fruit I guess the message that you can get it on every single carrier well don't forget that AT&T you know even though their LTE network is is getting pretty widespread they still are way behind verizon and so verizon was pushing LTE phones more than probably 18 t was so I mean on AT&T in most places in the country the fastest you know networking you get on worked with the iphone with the verizon you could get out a faster network if you've got another device so i would expect that once we see an LTE iphone that those numbers will probably start to be a little bit closer but i mean your larger point that people think of ett is an iphone network or think of the iphone on AT&T i think is totally true and i think that the fact that there are so many older iphones out there that you know are still perfectly good still getting handed down to teenagers still getting you know given to friends or whatever when somebody upgrades is another reason why a tts continues to activate a ton of iphones okay perfect segue you know what else is on ATT the news on Android yay not very many of them though flat are you using that phone as your daily driver now I am I am I honestly am this is Olivia 900 and I honestly am using it as my daily driver and I am not actually suffering for what it really it's it does a decent job and you switched on someone else right yeah I mean this is part of my rent I don't really want to get into me a little weight then um but so long as you you imagine there are no apps in the world if you just think there's this software which is on the phone and that's it and there's no other ecosystem to tap into your fire I know some problems so that means you don't think dropbox exists you're fine it's so good now I'm screwing around but honestly like I use the media player I really like the calendar the email client is decent has issues but it's decent I mean look it's fine it's a vulnerable phone I think and okay i'll just say the big reason why i actually switch to this and also these review units by the way i'm not spending my money on like a billion poems I'll hand these review units back eventually but yes I had a 1x and while I was away in Bulgaria I used the galaxy nexus two weeks with jelly bean which is gorgeous I was so right when i was logging into the galaxy nexus till the best android phone like I'm convinced now and chris is just completely nuts and bonkers um but yeah so I use a Galaxy Nexus and then it came back and I switch to the 1x and just the on-screen keyboard and some of the other escorted media sync recedes of sense just pissed me off to such a degree that I was like screw this and I went to leave me a 900 which actually has a really really nice on-screen keyboard like this again windows phone they really have the basic fundamentals in place and ready tell you that the on-screen keyboard of the camera app which jellybean actually kind of tease a little you know the whole swiping in from the side to look at images you've already taken yeah so the fundamentals me we've said this before the fundamentals winner phone are there an air in place so I wouldn't necessarily well I wouldn't at all say that I would use the Lumia 900 permanently but for a while it was a change of pace I think it's pretty pretty cool hey is that one of the best design phones it's really swing so I am a trading my personal galaxy nexus for Olivia 900 what yeah what's happening what's happening I don't understand oh yeah yeah we have a review unit of Galaxy Nexus around so if I need to use a nexus I i still can but the bottom line is the only windows phone that we have on the west coast is my own personal windows phone which is a original samsung focus no detail shipping you want and be patient please faster man faster it's a it so i'm doing i'm from i need need to have a modern windows phone as modern as you can get right now on so um i'm straight up i'm doing it i'm excited this is gonna be I feel like I've had this experience with you like a dozen times now Jeter where you're like I am switching it's gonna be great and then eight minutes in your like this is terrible i'm going back to the Galaxy Nexus yeah well I've been on the the galaxy s3 for about a week and it's grown on me quite a bit although i'm still out using s voice um and i still wish that the multitasking key was there instead of a long press but uh you know chris is right he's like the ghost looking over the entire podcast like touch was is so much better than sense it is so much better than sense um I guy I think my one I just got a cyanogen mod alpha on it right now and there's a bunch of stuff that's broken on it and I don't care like I'd rather use that than sense at this point um okay I i I'd yeah on that point though I need to show you something and I think it's available on my lumia 900 that might be good this has been a bit unstable but okay people who are listening to the audio of this podcast are not going to really benefit from this but take a look at this under video it's a big button on this phone that means one of the most disused pieces of capacity key software I've ever seen like I've never touched that I i think if you dust this phone for fingerprints the onespot you never find my fingerprint is the big button it's just useless like I don't even use search on a google phone which is google search which is better than being searched and the very rare times when i use it actually do search with a microphone so i do voice search run android which works decently well but that's the only time i ever bought it to do if i want to actually search something i open up a browser window it's quicker for me aah i didn't go to a really nice conversation with i got a really long conversation with our news manager out here brian bishop talking about how underutilized search is on phones just because it's I don't know it it doesn't seem to be as fast as and as convenient as it needs to be on Android and iOS and even Windows Phone like we stepped backwards from where we were with blackberry and windows mobile and webos where you had a keyboard just there waiting for you to start typing into it to search for stuff and like hitting that extra button and waiting for the UI to pop up the search bar and then waiting for the keyboard to appear and then start typing like that's just enough wait time where I just I don't want to bother I'd rather just you know look for the icon or you know pop up the browser window but datura see it's the economics of it as well um if you have an application and you know where it is what in order to access it what you do is you swipe to unlock the phone you do a few swipes you might have to open up a folder but it's just kind of big motions and big sweeps that you do we give thumb let's say whereas if you want to search for something as you say you have to bring up a search menu too game with and then he had start typing away and big rough in precise wipes are so much easier than actually typing something specifically as a name this is why i use voice search on Android as I mentioned because again that could be more impressing it can be something you do actually on the move as opposed to stopping and typing something in I mean it's my book like okay we gotta we gotta get into it like so Nokia's earnings they they only sold 600,000 handsets in the quarter lumia handsets in the North America and I think overall they sold for the quarter i want to say four million yeah i was four million yeah four million and then seven million to date and then their their quote was that it was gloomy activations were flat up after the windows phone 8 announcement which i mean basically my sense is that the windows phone 8 announcement and all the convention that we did about oh it's going to destroy Lumia sales is it going to hurt Lumia sales it's like it maybe it did but they were already you know so borderline and low to begin with that like you know even a hit from that wasn't a huge blip on their their sales radar like they they are already out of selling it to people that we're in the know is my concern or my fear at least in the US yeah I think that's a fair point I mean look to me it's encouraging insofar as nokia still seeing growth in terms of Lumia sales um and I do also like to take the contrarian view with respect to nokia which couple years ago was we have so much market share how could things ever turn bad and Chris and myself and Thomas recovery in Europe was saying dudes you need to figure out touch screens are you gonna you know crash and so now I'm actually taking the opposite position nokia has been persistent in saying we have the cash yes we're losing money but have cash cover it so i guess that's where those profits go they go into coffers and people actually save them it's kind of unusual for the Western world and but yeah okay so nokia has the cash it says you can do this periods this transitional period yes it's stretching out to be you know months and months and now over a year i guess but there is some sunshine on the horizon with Windows Phone 8 and with whatever is going to come later in the year I I mean my perspective is yes the numbers themselves are rough and Nokia lost what was it like a billion dollars during the quarter or something other yeah yeah i mean that's rough i I get it but then and nokia still has reserves it can still kind of weather the storm and then come back so if we get something with the sort of iconic design that we saw from nokia n9 which got continued in figs like the Lumia 900 nokia still has a chance like as far as I'm concerned the latter part of this year is just going to be the crunch time for nokia um and I think the what's what's really interesting to me about Windows Phone 8 is less the software changes which are fine but that finally Windows Phone 8 will have real you know top-of-the-line specs attached to its handsets and it makes me think like Nokia I think did the absolute best it could have within the constraints of Windows Phone and it made a gorgeous phone it has you know it has its issues it's not a fantastic processor it has you know the obvious ecosystem issues but with Windows Phone 8 the Lumia 900 won't it might get a little better but what could be much much better is the next Lumia phone and I think that is I mean if I were nokia I'd be furious right now because like as soon as you launch this flagship phone they say oh we have potential for much better phones running this better operating system so I think it's for right now they just need to stall as long as they can until they get a real shot to launch the best phone they can possibly launch which will be you know 720p and multi-core and NFC and all this stuff and then say here's a phone that we think can actually compete on the broader market well that was supposed to be the Lumia 900 I mean that's that's the thing I mean we talked about the Lumia sales are doing well well Lumia sales is a you know the distinction that they made for their windows phone products and of course are going to grow because they started at nothing when they first started selling these you know earlier so I mean I don't the thing that's interesting to me that you brought up David is nokia hasn't competed directly against iphone and android sort of on the same spec war and there's always been this sense like we know that there's another version of Windows Phone Cummings can be better we know that their hands are tied in terms of specs I can't remember how long it's been since nokia was like straight-up head-to-head going against other flagships you know with no caveats in the market I mean like in 95 I mean how far back do we need to go that's so like that'll be really interesting and I think the most interesting thing is at least as far as the u.s. goes windows phone 8 is going to see probably verizon putting some serious marketing muscle behind it and we're going to see these these carriers you know once again starting up the game of playing the different OS providers against each other and they're going to be throwing Windows Phone into that ring and you know we saw 18t do it a little bit but I think with Windows Phone 8 we're going to see it a lot we're going to see not just nokia but you know other manufacturers that are you know still playing in the Windows Phone game really get a big push from US carriers and I think it's going to be really interesting to see if at that point with modern hardware with competitive specs and with competitive marketing help from the carriers if it can compete like if all that happens if they get all of that and it still doesn't take off in some small way that's a big problem like there's only so long that Microsoft can can stick around and keep trying with this stuff and they really need a win with Windows Phone 8 oh absolutely i'm to your point about when knockos lost competing if you speak with the fanboys Nokia's never stop and it's just that the world has kind of gone weird and stop by okay device which is a totally awesome blog I think even the most strident symbian fanboy would have to admit that now those idea you don't know get a man's phone is sort of knowing that you're you're buying into a different ecosystem relative to what else is out there like it's a smaller ecosystem in terms of apps and yeah it's in terms of apps in terms of support from developers and like it could you could still say it's competing on a one-to-one ratio but there's there's that little caveat that like sure yeah you know the peer review is competing on 121 but really it's not really your sort of you understand that you're getting into a different kind of ecosystem with that and and I feel like Nokia hasn't as always had that little caveat you know for the past few years in our way of course and and also to did you say didn't okay so 600,000 a muse in the US it was that the number they look at in the UN water yeah yeah quarter yeah I don't America it wasn't it wasn't just the u.s. it was North America so can opener but I believe that's roughly the same as the previous course of the quarter before that I was by half a million units the luckiest owed in the US so it does seem again North America sorry it does seem like no kids penetration of that market which again has been a critical one it's the one that project Thunder was about and the Stephen Elop empathy empathy emphasized you know growing in the u.s. and North America in general it hasn't happened so that again that's that's a problem today but the reason why I do speaks excited I'm excited but choosy look at nokia's chances positively is precisely the thing that David social it's the fact that you kind of finally drop the chains of Windows Phone 7 like I like the fact we're on this phone 7 I the fact that you get a unified user experience across all devices it's good thing but and the bad thing is that the very latest devices are stuck with limitations that were present with the very first devices so as we've discussed nokia not upgrading the Lumia 920's phone 8 is rough right well no other windows phone 7 device is getting windows phone 8 is rough for everybody who's bought one and who maybe was an early adopter and wanted to show faith in microsoft cetera et cetera one at the same time you got the Apple fridge is getting iOS 6 and all these things that you know you kind of want to try and ignore if you want to be happy with your life in it smartphone but aside from all of those things um while i was in Bulgaria as i said i've been using the galaxy nexus and i recall i tweeted about three weeks ago the perfect smartphone today is the galaxy nexus with the Nokia 808 PureView as the camera because as we know the Nexus camera sucks so while oh sweet Bulgaria for a couple weeks I tried that experimented and to poke with me right and I try to live that lifestyle the first thing to say is it has a really work you can't really have two phones you gotta need to use one phone and then just kind of accept the camera set up for the camera or pick a phone with a really great camera and instead of for the software which aaron from our european team is inclined to do with the 808 PureView i would argue very much against it because uh yeah yeah i mean this is what whole bunch of reasons but one really great example if i was answered is when i was on a bulgarian seaside and we'll me my friend was struggling to get any sort of web connection we didn't have sim cards I mean it's a massive thing to even like procureur sim card never what a micro sim like a micro sim is a mystery to those guys and put okay will you have a sim card will finally found a Wi-Fi spot and I left my galaxy nexus in the hotel room went out with the aid away p of you because i thought i would want to take pictures we got Wi-Fi I got into Wi-Fi with the 80 IP of you ma that's the other thing my friend had Olivia 900 with it he was fine right he could skype with people he could twist good um but I had the 808 and I was like what can I do now can i upload pictures but i don't have dropbox and here the only option bri that I had was like emailing pictures to myself which kind of sucks the preloaded official Twitter client with it which everybody has said is bad but he really shouldn't be bad it has this peculiarity where if you don't have a sim card in the phone you can't turn the application on you can't use the app to talk without sim card which is equal parts stupid and absurd and this wasn't no skype client so I couldn't get in touch with anybody so I was literally at a cafe with Wi-Fi out in this phone and wondering what in the hell can I actually do with this connection and this phone and it was basically nothing like that there's nothing it's like you could take pictures with it or you can make phone calls with and that's where I went but the reason I can be kind of optimistic about nokia is because i thought well if i could still have this camera and I could take my friends leave me a 900 functionality essentially take Windows Phone and slap it on to the camera of the 808 PG I might actually be okay with the fact the Galaxy Nexus was in my hotel room or if it was no one any you know and then I might even say that's a phone that's worth swapping against alexis ford eater but not a losing 100 yeah what you should do is you should just you know by some duct tape or like a little hinge and make yourself uh a fold-out flip phone with the purity on the back and the Lumia 900 on the front just just crammed together it's gonna be easy to just get a DSLR and stick a freaking tiny smartphone on to it honestly but this is my point like your trading guy successfully 100 I'm saying no don't do it Aaron wants to trade um what is he using at the moment I think he's got a galaxy s 248 away p of you or maybe use the 808 PureView the second phone in either case no but if you combined to you take the pair of you stay bulimia any I just stick Windows Phone 8 on top of all of that that's a competitive phone you know particularly like nothing can sush the 808 PureView on camera performance like my family had pointed shoot cameras with them I was taking the best photos with the pew I just left every other camera at home it's a great camera and and nokia has exactly what you need to push windows phone 8 forward it has ability to design great things and when you have the specs and when you have the software together it can do it and I do feel like they can survive until let's say October time and do it come on four year of nokia for europe well but then we're back to the point that you made a little while ago about how like if apps weren't a thing windows phone would be fantastic but apps are thing as I have this conversation somebody while ago saying like if it were two thousand seven windows phone is the best operating system and it's not even close and I really believe that but then it you know everybody else came out with app stores but that's why I think windows 8 could potentially be huge for windows phone 8 because now you can develop the apps together and you know even in like that they're launching Windows Phone 8 after windows 8 and that could be huge because then you've got a month for people to start really developing apps for Windows 8 that can start migrating their way to Windows Phone 8 and I think that's the real chance that they have it's just a quick correction Aaron just even me to say it's not true he's not swapping any phone for the excess faithless users second phone so Aaron is saner than dieter at the moment we're just saying something if you I've ever seen the guy's haircut yeah Aaron's crazy we can just say that um okay so well while we have been podcasting apples earnings have come out and 8.8 billion profit on 35 billion revenue 17 million iPads which is a big increase sales of iphones dropped to 26 million compared to 35 million the previous quarter but you know they always drop this quarter basically it I mean it looks like I mean the calls going on right now and so you know we'll have more color as as the day goes on but it looks like you know it was a small miss but it's a small miss relative to what analysts you know have been expecting and so I know it's still huge like they've got 117 billion dollars in cash on hand they're doing fine it just seems like finally finally after so many years everybody sort of figured out that Apple post big numbers and are starting to expect big numbers from Apple well instead of yeah yeah they're finally getting used to this game that Apple plays where they way underestimate what their next quarter is going to be and so then it always looks great because they you know out do all of their own expectations so analysts are like well they're clearly lying so we're just gonna weigh over shoot that and then that'll maybe be the answer yeah yeah what I'm gonna say dieter is kind of understanding it when you say people are getting used to I proposing big numbers either on big numbers these are just you know industry crushing numbers take humongous I mean this is why that's the other thing analysts if you if you've ever read analyst reports and estimates they aren't afraid to be aggressive like some of them make their name on the basis of the fact that they go way overboard with things and way overestimate things like Google stock price and all of that stuff just because you know they want to stand out so they go really aggressive and then maybe they get lucky and Kings actually pan out so even when you take the really aggressive guys and their estimates are beaten Apple was just the as Davis says I mean yes Apple underestimates things to do the classic thing of under promise over the liver and now maybe analysts are wising up but the scale of it is I mean I don't think it's really comprehend oh I mean let's let's let this into context we just talked about nokia having enough cash on hand to survive through this dip and you know get itself re-established in the smartphone game i think we're looking at 5.15 billion cash on hand and US dollars that nokia has or let their liquid assets that's less than what Apple added to their cash on hand this past quarter 117 billion is where they're at now so like you know the amount that Nokia was able to add or lost from its cash on hand was like literally a rounding error when you put it on the scale of what Apple's been doing that made me really sad actually I mean and Athens revenue is bigger than Microsoft and Google combined which is just wild yeah I mean uh you know really amazed me is that uh ipod sales are only down ten percent over last year like who is still buying ipods if you don't already own an ipod why are you buying an ipod it just doesn't make any sense to me i do feel like it's that is ipod touch yeah I mean it's saying it accounts for more than half of their ipod sales but like just buy an iphone or I mean is it kids that's my only theory is that yeah kids are still getting me touches writing the London on the ground today that was my impression I saw a couple of ipod touches and it was kids playing games so maybe it's you know Steve Jobs was absolutely spot on what he said it's a great gaming machine and it's been at the time he was saying it to cover the fact you didn't have a front facing camera but yeah and it's the cheap gateway drug to all of apple's other bigger more expensive devices too yeah yeah good man I mean Apple can actually like retire right now not release another product not ship another product for how many decades whatever is keep the exact same level of staffing exact same level expenses and yeah we never can like take a decade of it and still be one of the Mafia's companies in tech yeah I mean they're they're content stores the app store in the itunes store was 4.1 billion in revenue like nobody's operating at this scale nobody else is even close to operating at this scale i and and like every quarter I promise that I'm not gonna sit here in boggle at how much how big apple is and how much money they're they're breaking in but even with this you know relatively disappointing quarter it's still like the thing that I just can't get away from is just the scale relative to what anybody else is doing its it's like one or two orders of magnitude bigger even even in a down corner it doesn't matter because the scale is home bigger it's like whatever no I agree but let's let's think about the positives though I mean I I do feel like the Nexus 7 is gonna be really really significant device for Google and it's a space with the kindle fire where we also expect to have a new kindle fire sometime or anything too soon we're in terms of the price range anyway it's just a place where Apple isn't competing right now in those affordable tablets google has a strong enough app and contest or Amazon is a strong enough having contests or so at least even-even while Apple is generating one of this profit and revenue at least that do you see good you know a good opportunity and good potential for competition so I'm not really as worried as you might have been looking at intel's dominance of chips let's say a few years back say a decade ago or whatever um it's always good to have competition so it's kind of like okay apples making a little bunny but at least Google's making moves I do like Microsoft's aggressiveness you know with a surface tablet and wood windows 8 and all of that stuff we'll see how it all pans out but at least this competition going on and we we don't really it doesn't really seem to me like we're gonna end up in the situation where we just have you know an incumbent who isn't forced to keep innovating you know like for example the iphone let's call it the iphone 5 the next-generation iphone it can't really afford to be just an iphone 4 T right like right ever fall in the oven for s way too similar but you can't afford to have another one that is just the same you do need to upgrade there are other guys pushing you and guys who will take your position if you just kind of sit in the same spot and he's a hope so that is how we're not just buying things because their iPhones right anyone we are yeah we go I mean look I mean when someone asks when someone asks you on the street here what phone should i buy and you don't know them from p what do you say ma'am just get an iphone I mean that's that's just how it's gonna be for a while but that really took yer I really took your your attempt at being hopeful and just shut it down no I kind of disagree I think I i still recommend iphones to people but i think if if they if I mean and is there's no way this is going to happen I really can't imagine this happening but if Apple comes out with another iphone that doesn't have LTE well I'll stop recommending iPhones to people and like that's you know it's an obvious thing that they have to upgrade but that's that's to your point Vlad that like people have come out you know Apple claimed it was a battery thing and then motorola comes out with the razr maxx which both has LTE and lasts forever and so like that's not an issue anymore and they need to Apple needs to figure out a way to compete with these things and especially as Android gets better and the skins get better like Motorola's Ice Cream Sandwich skin is great and the Smart Actions is really cool and I'm a huge fan so and now Apple has these real things that it's lacking in and I like the razr maxx last longer than the current iphone even though it has LTE and it's faster and the Smart Actions is cool and it has NFC and all this stuff and like Apple legitimately has some catching up that it needs to do especially in these particular features which i think is great how so totally I agree and the other thing is I I have been noticing the fact that the gap has been narrowing like we kind of you know being involved in the industry all the time we kind of missed these things and the way things change but I I think back to when the iphone 3gs was the latest iPhone just before the iphone 4 came out um so what was that two thousand nine ish yeah yannick that's right whatever I mean maybe 2 2 2010 um when the iphone 3gs was the latest iPhone it was so far ahead of any Android phone it wasn't even close by the smoothness of the interface was untouchable by god that's bedtime reviewing a playing around with android phones for months and then i picked up a 3gs start scrolling around it i was like dude I've been wasting my time like this thing is so far ahead of everything else why are we even bothering like 3gs at the time was just a massive chunk ahead of everything else it was just way too easy to say best smartphone Ivan free Jess you're done clear finished whereas now we can have arguments and they can be legitimate arguments as opposed to like drunk nilay patel rants well it's like no god dammit for the sake of such as such it used to be this and that again that gives me hope that will continue to have a competitive environment in Mobile which is what we need ultimately and and you know part of that part of what we need is still knock it like whatever happens I do feel like we need some European design Flair so we don't end up with a whole bunch of products called Max and capitalized like the razor and missing vows or inter cap like the iPhone mean seriously iphone ipad all of these names they're ridiculous Ice Cream Sandwich honestly like if you're gonna name a product don't have Japanese people named it cuz you'll be a sequence of alphanumeric nonsense and I have America's name it cuz then it'll be just straight nonsense like I don't know who ed maybe French people right French ping sound classy you don't understand what i mean but it just sound classy right that's true yes i like a live phone from live oh yeah that was a chinese company coming up with that name for you know what see uh do we want to talk about Beats Audio now beats audio bought a controlling interest back in their company back from HTC CNN had reported that HTC maybe wasn't doing everything they needed to keep the relationship going like not meeting their financial something I mean I'm just I'm just disappointed that HTC has had such a rough time of it lately I was really hoping that the one series that they will come ring back and instead you know they add this I think what we have to call as a boondoggle with with beats just a distraction mmm like they're they're just I it's really disappointing because I really kind of want to root for them but like they're not winning anywhere right now yeah i mean look as far as I'm concerned it's hcs vote because of sense like Android the Android that Google gives you has a rock-solid perfectly usable on-screen keyboard and then you screw that up yeah and you force me to come back and fix it and people are telling me who uses the stock keyboard on sense get swiftkey gets the antigen mod get such and such it's like mmm I don't want to write I paid my money for this device NHC screwed it up and now you want me to work on removing the screw up like that's the exact opposite thing this is why we commend guys like vizio right because sean hollister just reviewed recently the vizio thin and light laptop and I mean as a laptop it's not great but one of the great things about it is that it's just straight windows with no bloatware right yep yeah and thumbs up keep doing that you know we everybody appreciates those things and I'm sure Vizio gonna be able to so at least on these laptops just on the strength of the fact that there's no bloatware there's no noise it just windows and you can just get on with using it and you don't need to go for all of these hoops and as what HD does with sense i mean AC try to minimize senza to try to improve it and all really helpful and enthusiastic ababa I mean it's a you wrote up a mini editorial about AC finding its design roots again but it just wasn't good enough I don't think yeah didn't make it yeah so I mean look HTC is going to come back probably later this year with new devices jellybean devices for sure right and did hopefully they do something strong and impressively Windows Phone and that kicks awesome back up again I do i do you feel like we need um you know HTC and guys ago G by David you reviewed the LG 4x HD and that was the highest-rated LG we ever had and we need those guys keep guys exam second check because the whole apple vs samsung conversation i am so sick inside of it I would love for 2013 to be a conversation about apple vs samsung vs LG vs. HTC vs nokia but is Sony right if Sony's still alive and kicking yeah I mean and the thing is it seems like everyone is just a little ways off like Sony makes great phones uh Aaron are crazy Aaron just reviewed the expiry you and you know there's a lot to like about it especially design wise but they ship it with Gingerbread and that's just you can't do that anymore um that's the same right but they've also updated I think it was the Xperia P to ice cream sandwich and it's a huge improvement and actually makes that a much more compelling phone and there was the Xperia ion in the US which is the same way like it's a great phone except that it has gingerbread which is just absolutely unforgivable and then HTC makes a gorgeous phone with an incredible display and sense is too much and you know on and on and on there's just one small thing removed from having a really really really compelling system and my great hope and I'm sure this won't be true because it never is is that at least one more person will figure it out in the next six months and we'll have a real legitimate third competitor because we're not that all day yeah um Judy for me samsung samsung is the closest with the the gut luck cs3 I mean honestly I mean they're selling a ton of them and you know it's like I the way the 1x looks to it but like it's a good phone it's a good experience and you know they haven't messed up android too much but it's just I don't know I find it boring and I i find the iphone boring like i'm just i'm bored i want more charged action I want more people you know legitimately fighting instead of getting eaten down dieter wants to see the nokia n-gage may come back that's good work oh man I would be all about that means it works we don't had a sidekick in a wily there might be time actually did you see this uh this this droid x fake thing that that's getting made somebody made a fake PS vita shell and loaded it up with ice cream sandwich and has also pre loaded it with a whole bunch of rom emulators so it's just a straight-up completely fake PS vita running android so that you can play roms on it that's amazing and it's cool toy to 360 so it takes into the droid x 360 yeah that's pretty good that's like everything the Xperia Play should have been and wasn't at all at all at all at all yeah dude that's actually hard were designed by SEO principles so it's like how do I get on anybody's search engine for any reason to do with gaming your android call it a droid stick x360 in the name make it into a PS vita look alike and it oh and it can play playstation 1 games something about why the emulator but yeah all you need is let's see how many people we can get to sue us if they can find us before we saw oh you can sell spray-z phones in china that's okay Oh should we talk about Sparrow the google acquired them and they're not gonna update their app anymore yes i want it there i'm just can I just sit here in saab for the next like 40 to 45 no sound a Gazette is not allowed but we will permit you to have good proper rights please no so I actually don't have I don't even really have a rant I think this is the most for me it's like the most high risk high reward thing ever I'm a serial switcher between apps and the gmail app for Android is legitimately great gmail app for iOS is just you know a nightmare hell works the world yeah it's awful I hate it I hate it I wanted to die that's just the end um and so my great hope is that DOM and his team will show up at Google and say listen let's just you know call Sparrow gmail change some of the colors and here's our new app you know it has this multiple accounts it doesn't crash all the time it has push because gmail has figured out how to do that so that like I'm excited about that and if they're if the sparrow ideas are just brought to the Gmail team I think that's really exciting and especially really exciting for iOS users because the email system on iOS is awful and it's the thing I like the least about my iphone by a million miles so the like that's a beautiful dream but I mean listen it's not gonna happen that quickly even if that is what the goal is or you know just add some like sparrow features to the existing gmail app or you know whatever they're going to do the thing that was great about sparrow was they iterated it so quickly and they can move quick and they're nimble and you know they can make a great app independently and they can respond directly to use your requests and features and they talk to everybody and inside the giant corporation that is Google on the team within the team with the manager who has another manager even even if google has like you know perfected not having crappy bureaucracy and I imagine they're better than most companies there's no way that they're going to be able to iterate as quickly as I did as an independent company or yeah or like you know just be as responsive to user requests because it's going to need to get put through the corporate machine um you know I don't want to you know say they shouldn't have done it but I mean that google offered to buy my company that doesn't exist I would probably seriously consider it um but nevertheless like it's it's a bummer for people who love the idea of independent apps I mean the thing I tweeted when I saw this news was rip chat or email back in the palm OS days there was you know the equivalent of Sparrow back then was a sinkhole chat or email that was basically the first app that could handle I'm at idle which gave you push email over i'm at and had a million configuration options basically anything a user asked for he he baked it in and so calm hired and like chat or email died and look the palms email client at the time which was called of i forget what it was called starts with a V Paul meatballs email time like got like one percent better and then died so I mean in terms of like loving apps and loving responsive developers think it just it can't get better there's no way this purchase is going to turn into something that is more awesome than what Sparrow is was becoming so my counter to that and this is again back to my great you know dream of rainbows and unicorns is that Google with Google+ did kind of proved that it can iterate quickly and make a really good at like Google+ what I care right what Google really really cared about making Google+ a good experience and in a matter of only a couple of months went from a pretty bad app that was just a wrapper on a you know crappy mobile site to a really good really attractive app that's you know one of the best out there for social networking stuff and so when it wants to do it it moves quickly and does well and especially with this you know newfound design sense that Google seems to have found can do some pretty great stuff and so what I hope is that you know Sparrow didn't take a billion dollars and just you know go rest on their laurels at Google they think I hope that the pitch was we think you can do this great thing for a lot more people in a lot more places and I hope that that's real and i believe that Google can do it I just hope that they do and if not I will literally come on this podcast and cry every single every single well it's also interesting in light of the fact that you know Apple has taken google maps out of iOS 6 and so like Google you know they've got you know some apps on the iphone and you know we just have been complaining about gmail like they need to that you know they know the iphones not going anywhere and they need to have a bed experience for their apps on the iphone and you know assuming that that's what day they're gonna put the sparrow teams toward you could be right I could be doom and gloom for nothing and I take it all back and I'm still blanking on the name of that palm OS email client and I'm not gonna rest until I remember it I have just add to take deep decide on this V anniversary because first mail and congrats theta good Joe Lee because I mean the point about the flexibility of the independent developer and also just the decision-making authority to be able to make decisions quickly is an important one it really is I recall an article where it was mentioned that some research was done in to brainstorming right because brainstorming is a really popular thing that took off in line to 1950s and 60s where you get a whole team together and you say this is our problem let's come up with solutions and then they all start thinking up things and putting things up on a chalkboard or whatever they were using at a time I mean you guys watch Mad Men you will know better than me and and what they found actually with the research is that bracelet me doesn't she work it slows things down in fact like there's too many scattershot ideas this like one person speaking one direction other person speaking another direction and and what you actually benefit from is essentially dictatorial rule where one person sets a tone sets the agenda etc and everybody follows along and works to that kind of thing and my evidence to say that the same is true in goo goo is Mattias towards his arrival like he arrived ice cream sandwich pops up and all of us were like holy crap Google now actually has android design like there is actually a thing called Android design as opposed to android has apparently been designed by somebody or something somewhere right this is this an idea that is some sort of frost some sort of direction where the designs go um now I am wary of how much 30 disparity we're going to get because with their own app it was a case of if you want to make a change if david p is emails us and says guys this is really important let's do it or you should do it uh you know the sacrifice person team right they can just decide yeah you know David Pierce is a intelligent handsome man we should follow this advice let's do so this is the one Jesus point about being nimble it's like fine there's a change it happened and it's probably a good change and it moves things forward in goo how do you get that sort of authority I mean I feel I feel like Matty's was the exception right Google hide him and recruited him on the premise that they would give him a really wide brain you know there was they would essentially let him decide whatever the hell we wanted to do with Android and you can kind of tell that he has this freedom to make design changes and design language changes are we going to see the same with a sparrow team are they going to be allowed to run loose with gmail I don't think so because Jamie was so fundamental to Google's web services and Sparrow are still kind of you know he who wanted it they're just a small group of you know successful designers yes a successful that's why they were both but again do you trust the sparrow team enough to just let them have gmail and firm bar with it I don't think Google would I think you're probably right and that makes me sad but you know what I'm more worried about is is Twitter and and then the corporate policy coming down to the third party apps makes me really really nervous yeah so go ahead dinner okay well so I mean uh I was at the the all things media conference and the CEO Dick Costolo was there and I wrote an article cotton ma a social broadcasting network instead of just a social network and um I was totally right like so they've been they've been making noises recently that they're going to do something to change the rules for third-party apps they took linkedin its integration and they killed that and they've just been making a lot of noise about these coming changes to their developer api's that are going to be stricter and they say they're saying stuff like we want people to build off of twitter we don't want people to build off Twitter want people to build into Twitter you know they need to make money they need to make advertising and they can do that in their own apps and on their own website more easily than they can off of tweet bot or plume or whatever other third-party app you you can name and so like nobody knows exactly what the rules are gonna be but you know it's clear that somebody somewhere wants to just kill off third party apps and all the efforts party apps and make it look like a big allure like Facebook actually where you know there are third-party facebook apps but they're not really you know that bite use they're not very official blah blah blah but everything sort of plugs into the Facebook ecosystem as a platform yeah an app platform even and ben popper actually wrote a really good article about this back on July night like it's coming twitter is gonna look more like facebook and your favorite third-party app may not work nobody knows or it'll work differently or something which blows I mean completely blows because I am so freaking invested into Twitter I I start to feel anxious if I don't tweet for like two days in a row I am like one of Twitter's most loyal employees and yes I do work at it I have multiple jobs i work with twitter for flickr or google+ very occasionally um and your male model yeah yeah that does the one unpaid job oh yeah it was also the unappreciated one I tweeted a picture of myself she lost me 10 followers ah we know at the same time has to be actually at the same time uh that's that's a really interesting one about manipulating your Twitter audience because i lost 10 followers the immediate wake of posting a picture and then the next morning I had gained 20 so it's kind of like okay I lost one chunk of my audience who okay just using and abusing me just for tech news and again the new chunk that appreciated me for myself and my body just really important ok this is this is some food Twitter um whatever it is bad if you could make this segue work I will prove you without I'm so curious where this is going right now whoa okay that's the point the point is that I feel like I personally am over-invested in Twitter I feel like a lot of people are and Twitter strength is always being the fact that it's just kind of there you know it it just gives you the foundation and the basics and then I mean it kind of like what the Costello said you build on top of that you say things you use twitter to do things right and yeah part of it you know whatever is Twitter or where there is any other web service mobile is a huge part of it and a huge part of it going forward so killing of the point clients is not good because third point clients have consistently been better than Twitter some clients this is my biggest problem and Twitter be more like Facebook again makes me wanna cry like David wants to cry with respect sparrow because facebook is not the direction I want Twitter to move into I want other things to be like Twitter I don't want Twitter to be like Facebook where things are so tiring you know clogged up and nasty and unpleasant just yeah you know I I kind of just want Twitter to stay exactly as it is whatever chain is twitter i mean this this whole argument the Twitter's making sounds like the one that the carriers are making which is we don't want to be a dumb pipe that we funnel your data where you want it to go and the end there they're wanting to do again what you said what Facebook is doing which is say we own the whole experience and facebook went has gone even further and on the Facebook Connect stuff where it kind of underpins these other sites but and Twitter does that to an extent but not quite as much but Twitter seems to be saying like we don't want to be just the thing that you know delivers your data we want to be in control of everything and be able to advertise to you ourselves and you know I'm not it on the desk this is what if urance has Twitter's I mean Twitter doesn't isn't a you know their private company they have a private network basically and they're api's exist at the I don't know what the words that the will of the king like they can they can change or pull whatever they want because it's not an open spec it suspect controlled by them I mean there's this this group called a app net that's trying to basically build an open-source Twitter competitor and so they're doing something kind of like Kickstarter they've got 20 days they want to reach a half a million dollars and then they're gonna you know try and launch and I mean there's been some other attempts to create sort of open api's for something that's a lot like Twitter and I mean if they go down this path and their ends up being a huge backlash and they don't you know carefully manage how they're going to turn themselves into Facebook more like they don't have a you know a monopoly on this kind of service like if somebody can build something and enough people move to it it'll it'll change I mean you know maybe maybe Google is excited to try and swoop in on that I don't think that's likely i think that twitter the different kind of service from google plus but like they I don't know what percentage of there was a study that like somebody figured out he analyzed million tweets and what percentage of users actually use third-party clients yeah was this guy Benjamin Mayo who went through and found this is a you know relatively unscientific thing he went and found a million tweets which is a lot but nowhere near the actual scale of Twitter obviously and sorted it by clients and the numbers are really interesting that the top see I think he found 70 point eight percent of his total originated from first party clients and at most 29.2 percent of people use third-party Twitter clients which is really interesting yeah in part of it actually be smaller because some of those are coming from like tweet buttons and stuff right right yeah like the i think the the web number is may be skewed i'm not sure how quite how it's all calculated but what i thought was really interesting is that twitter has gone and kind of systematically purchased all of the really popular third-party ones like i expected one this looks totally different than I thought the top for our web with a huge lead and then twitter for iphone twitter for android and twitter for blackberry which is really surprising because you know that those would be the top four but they surprised me but then you get down to like TweetDeck is way up there and then it's like oh well twitter owns them and they're all and the mobile web is high and all these apps as you go down twitter seems to have seen them and said we you know you're clearly doing well and doing something right we're just going to buy you and that makes me wonder like when r is twitter willing to have a bunch of different first party clients because that to me mitigates a lot of the problem like if they're willing to say you can't build a tweet deck competitor but we're going to make tweetdeck really good because it's ours now and you clearly like it then I'm not okay with it but more okay with it but if they're going to come out and say well this is Twitter for Mac this is what it is this is what it looks like this is what you will use and ditto for Android and iOS and the web and so on and so forth that's what makes me nervous oh yeah Twitter actually owns a lot of Twitter clients and a lot of different ones that I had kind of forgotten that no I agree with you and I do you feel like the kinds of Twitter's bought have been uncontroversial e strong ones and good ones right it bought Tweety and I mean oh that's fine so long as Twitter actually maintains a strong user experience that's fine the thing that I'm quoting against is or like the analogy that I was going to go to mention earlier is that the reason cockroaches survive as long as they do is because they're simple and their basic and they don't need to evolve and in many respects twitter is like that I know it's not a very flattering analogy but it's like that it's got something really really right in how basic the communication is between people it's added somebody useful and fundamental and handy features like picture previews and things are there and just kind of enhance things in in the right direction right that's good but for the most part twitter has now really reach the sort of critical mass I mean if you watch BBC news reports over here in the UK nowadays it's like Jonathan English and then underneath is twitter handle it's that widespread you know people finish off news reports and say if you want to comment on the story you can find me on Twitter at such-and-such spot so actually total doesn't really need to be so aggressive about trying to be like something else like Facebook again and the thing that I'm questioning is the thing that I'm worried about is Twitter trying to be too aggressive in whatever sort of evolution it thinks it needs to do because I don't think what does things that need to do is you thinks it needs to go public it thinks it needs to make sure that it is monetized well so that it can pay its employees and then go public and then you know please its future you know current and future shareholders and so that I mean don't don't be confused that you know this move is about making sure that they've got a long-term business where they can make real money and they do it really the questions mean well brio money in quotation marks but they already have a business yeah but we can't we can't ask them to keep their business small just because you know we like it better right I mean what we can do is we can take our business elsewhere if we don't like what they're turning into yeah and if that does that's just a warning point I was gonna make a nice quick one if you recall when dig was a DI GG remember that site when he existed that's it what is absolute peak it felt like it was a juggernaut like you couldn't get away from dick like every website on the that cared about getting traffic cared about getting on dick it was that high was that epic was that great and then dig did this really revolutionary design and kind of screwed itself and now nobody cares now right is the major website serving that kind of audience and big is essentially nowhere to be found so all I'm saying is fine Twitter wants to evolve Twitter wants to do better but it takes very little actually to just completely piss off your entire audience and as he says alternatives can and will crop up like the basic functionality twitter has can be replicated by people smarter than I and uh naw dians can be developed I mean imagine for example such some other company with a lot of um how to put it a lot of credibility with the online community so somebody like valve and a way that they develop ste right mm-hm the same thing can really happen with a new social network you just you just need enough discontent to you know steam up around Twitter which only never happens because I do like it and I have work hard to build up my followers you know you know I already invested just leaving be well I don't change go to too much think that's all I'm saying do you remember um do you remember the dick bar the which drove everyone away from Twitter this oh yeah crazy ass I mean so what's what's crazy about that and you just made me think of this Vlad was that before the things like the dick bar which everybody hated I don't remember was actually called it's just I was the quick bar but it's close it's the tick bar that's better um the dick bar drove everybody to you know tweetbot and tweetdeck and all these other clients and if they get rid of those it's going to drive people to Facebook and Google+ and you know that could be much more dangerous is that they're bad decisions drive people not only away from Twitter apps but away from Twitter and I don't is that might just be a conspiracy theory but it's it's like people really really really hated that quick bar and if if the only other option had been let's go use google plus i really think people would have gone and used google plus that's true because the next I want to go to use google plus I really I'll be fine it's good but no no this butter is it's limited ok finish yeah yeah agree but google plus the only thing I need to do is sort of a freaking web interface which has vast quantities of white space which goes disused and then you have this really narrow band of content in the middle if they could actually have somebody who's familiar with web design work on their website I could you know find myself little bus I can live with that yeah so you know to the needs to watch out I'll take like ten percent of my photos of the Google+ I mean all you have to do is repost that picture you posted on Twitter and everybody's coming to Google Plus for you I think that's that's clear no that's my point about how the other half are going to I don't know find another verge European editor I guess Aaron can be a good substitute for me so long as he gets a haircut hahaha Jersey area there's another thing I met up with the London team I not nobody particularly cares but I met up with London teams today and all of them are scruffy make not one of them is shaved in the past week two of them have haircuts that are like white person afros it's outrageous you know two weeks away and old standards drop it's terrible terrible I mean the only reason I'm keeping the beard again it's a 45-minute shadow I didn't have time to show you to the photo podcast but uh in a reason I'm keeping a beard is to kind of keep that going and chris's absence when chris is back i'll probably make myself presentable yeah it's like it's like the Olympic flame somebody has to keep it and it doesn't matter who it is but as long as somebody has it we're okay oh do you don't don't get me started the Olympic flame the number of times i think is gone out and people to artificially turn it back on is the whole tour of the UK um so we try to snatch it when it was on tour which is like yeah yeah but if you want to steal something don't try to steal the Olympic flame man honestly that's like how are you gonna get away with that think about it what a story yeah yeah so I'm gonna wrap this up cast up now that we've complained about twitter if you want to follow us on twitter while it still exists you can i'm at back line vladas at flats ever David is at Pierce David we're all together at verge and we will be back at you next week thanks for watching thanks guys you