Gadgetory

hey it's august seven it's been a week since our last fudge bubble show you might notice that i'm not actually dieter bohn which might be a surprise but we're still carrying on uh hopefully we're gonna have quite a few surprises in today's show particularly since we'd actually know what we're doing but let's see what happens stay tuned for the verge mole show hey I'm Blatz hello i'm chris sigler i'm ross miller oh hello Rock hi sorry about that goodness you know you think that a guy who is sort of the consummate professional with 90 seconds on the verge notice that was a nice pimp for your program by the way you think that somebody who is such professional of 90 seconds on the verge would know when to come in on cue but apparently not see where cavemen a 90-second the birds we don't have a mute switch that I was rocking I tried to open my mouth and technology prevented it this is actually a technology podcast that you know there's a good transition to us talking about something more important hi I'm rambling we're not making this under an hour um well actually this is 90 seconds on the verge mobile show now we're combining both programs so we're actually shortening it from an hour and a half to 90 seconds which is convenient for everybody by the way for those of you who are watching live I just want to apologize for my video quality uh we were just having this discussion right before we started broadcasting here's what happened I'm gonna start this show Vlad I know that you're supposed to take it from here and startop talking about actual mobile news but I'm going to do a little aside here what happens this I am recording on a macbook air 2 2010 model MEK no 20 lot early 2011 macbook air I don't know what the is there thunder bolt there's no Thunderbolt coats pre I have a 720p logitech webcam that I normally to record myself when I'm doing this show up until last week or the week before I can't remember we were mostly getting SD streams from my location to the New York studio for whatever reason skype decided to start broadcasting me an HD in the last couple weeks it's kind of like mysterious how that process works you can't control it from skype it happens automatically when that happened the macbook air ground to a halt I just now realized after playing with the settings here between the the internal webcam and the logitech that when I'm broadcasting in HD the air just completely I mean it can't handle it skype consumes a hundred percent of the CPU nothing works right i was having terrible sync issues last week now i'm on the internal camera which is why i look a little fuzzier uh so hopefully that's not going to be too big of a problem for you hopefully won't be too distracting you know that you like to see me in full 720p quality 1080p if it was an option fortunately it's not so your complexion has never looked better thank you thank you rob you're welcome / lee i'm gonna be on an imac with a core i7 in this won't be an issue anymore anyway tomorrow the stories get a real computer ouch hey you have a macbook air do you not do I'm doing this on a macbook air it's actually the generation before yours and i still think is the best computer ever but it has its limitations and you just highlights it one of the big ones yeah also sorry just wanted to mention on a topic of professionalism i do want to say that that was basically the beta intro that i just did because it kinda sucked scarlet egg beater interning with the beep I like it yeah um I think that would be a bit of audience approbation but you know the most professional intro producer on our team is DITA who's done it many a time he's a complete veteran Chris has done a couple of times and I've done it once i can say that was the beta soon we'll have the Gamma Delta cetera versions eventually we'll get to stage where it's all smooth and awesome and we actually talked about mobile devices what intro Omega will happen differ having trouble mega the dieter is a stone-cold killer with these opens um by the way you might be wondering why heaters in here he is on a very secret mission in our great nation's heartland doing some reporting and you'll be seeing that shortly you'll also be seeing him on this program next week I believe not to say we don't want ross miller here every week because we do an echo since you are since you are in the studio for 90 seconds on the verge anyway maybe we'll just you know commandeer you every week I don't mind um and to be honest I have backup in case I do suffer a heart attack um right now I want you gonna pull this guy into frame right here we have Nathan uh Nathan Ingram Lily everybody oh nothing what's up guys he exists he's real yes Nathan not only exists but he is a quite frankly there would be no news on the verge if it were not for for Nathan and TC and Brian who are our dear news managers and make the site tick so a round of applause for nathan everybody out there watching right now we can't hear you but you know wherever you're sitting if you're in a public library watching this program on a computer to start clapping make some noise in fact it'd be great that clapping you're screaming wow yeah we as in you know libraries quiet please do okay it would let i'm sorry for de railing this program bled please continue I think we're food a five-minute quota of number will talk to make sure that anybody who's later the show has joined in and everybody's here because I'll talking about phones finally um I think the biggest at least from my perspective piece of new / rumor from the past week is this 5-inch smartphone from HTC and what we're dealing with here is ok first of all the primary source is didga x which you know everybody like well digits x is like 50 50 if you're lucky but there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that goes with it but the rumor is that HTS preparing a 5 inch android smartphone with a full 1080p display which canna ties him with Chris's proposition that he really needs a 1080p webcam so people can see him on their future HTC phones working so yeah and and that phone is expected okay september-october which makes sense because that's about the time that HC likes to refresh HDD likes to do two major refreshes of its android flagship one is around them that we see time already been done and the other is around the Woodson time september-october it didn't do much with that last year we had the sensation XL and some really quite I mean that was it really oh here in Europe and then you had the the resound over in the u.s. later the year but it looks like a pretty major upgrade on the 1x 5-inch 1080p phone also there's a geo benchmark result which indicates the same resolution we've seen on that resolution listing it also shows it's not exactly 9 20 x 1080 so 126 vertical lines are taken up by what's presumed to be the android on-screen buttons it all kind of just meshes together and flows together so it does seem like this thing is legitimate like it's real and the other thing is that vacuum a LG announced that is built IPS display with 1080p resolution at five inches so all of the things like that all the pieces are there for this phone to exist yeah it sounds like it's great super phablet phone lit thing phablet super Fab five inches so I mean my question is why are they doing refreshed so fast like you said last year with sensation XL was not a big update was more iterative than it was substantial this seems more substantial did something happen with the 1-series that just did not mesh as well they hoped my theory is that they want to create as large of a gap between them and Samsung as they possibly can because there's a lot of you know obviously all the all the attention right now is the battle between Samsung and Apple but in the Android space there is this this this less public battle going on between Samsung and HTC for premier Android OEM and you know HTC just got a very very brief jump on samsung with the One X versus the gs3 I think that they might be looking to create a slightly larger gap with their next device versus Samsung's next device and of course there will be some sort of battle between the note 2 which is going to be almost certainly announced it at Aoife and whatever HTC is bringing to the table but I consider this as if this is 5 inches exactly 5 inches I do think of it as more of a an up-market 1x or you know refresh the 1x tonight then I would think of it as a galaxy no competitor personally no I agree but that's also kind of a funny thing to say enough market 1x cuz the 1x was supposed to be the top of the market right and I think that's also the point that Ross is getting at but to answer his question I don't feel like HTC got too much wrong with the 1-series aside from the Sun software which chris that i bemoaned at length so but again if you want to fix sense that there's a very easy way to do it that's a software thing you don't fix sense by introducing a 1080p display and just stretching it out over a larger display I think Chris this point is exactly accurate like HTC has had issues with its financials which we'll discuss in a little bit and it's not making the property used to be making and it's losing sales & like mike vs if HTC can get out ahead of samsung and actually hold onto the spec lead in android for prolonged period of time you know that might be the thing that fixes thanks for for the company so that that's my reasoning I guess for you know going for this kind of aggressive thing but then the other thing is if oh gee has this 5-inch 1080p display why don't you want to use it like why would you let somebody else grab it well this here here's my question though why and I've mentioned this many times before on this show and on the podcast before it why in the world do you need a pixel density in excess of 400 PPI on a mobile device or any device in somebody else a date dude this is this happened actually in in the common thread on our news reports on this 5 inch HD super phone you know like the first couple of comments were like it's overkill it's unnecessary is too much and then write the responses to those were well yeah but when but what was the response specifically but the point is that you you say it's too much but if he if you you take that perspective you never move forward you know I'm do one of those guys who was really quite content with monochrome displays back in the day uh again I've kind of mentioned this before the first color display is really sucked but so they weren't all that attractive but then people were actually asking okay you're only looking at text messages snake and phone numbers why do you the color display and the point is you can't answer the question why do you need a 1080p display until you have one and then people start putting it to use well I mean I don't know who the answers of my head other than 1080p movies so here's my perspective I think that that 1080p in a mobile display is the most clear-cut example of a specs pissing contest that I can recall in recent memory I mean there's been a problem for a very long time in the Android space but this there is no more clear demonstration of that than with this particular respect what I would like to see component providers and OEMs do instead is concentrate on taking these four to five inch or four point eight inch 720p displays and start working on technologies for better daylight viewability better viewing angles better you know laminate display technologies because that's the kind of stuff that you notice every single second that you're using the device and it you know of course the the Sony source component on the One X is already absolutely fantastic it's i think i rated it a 10 x remember correctly I can't it's not possible to make a display much better than that i think on a mobile device but one area where they they could improve where they can always improve his daylight viewability so in fact we were we were talking about this on last week's show those old transflective displays on the I packs from the early 2000s like it actually got better when you were viewing the display and sunlight then it then it was indoors and you know at some point hopefully we'll get to that point again where it's just as good and in direct sunlight as it is anywhere else so I'd like to see them work on that and then then rather than resolution at this point so why is that to say that we're hitting this kind of Zenith point where we don't need higher resolution if we're gonna have a 4k televisions we don't need a 1080p phone or a 2k phone at some point I mean well here's there's my question to you Chris her vlogs I don't have an answer to this what is the highest pixel density of a phone you've seen or that's been out so far um probably your the resound I guess 4.3 inch 720p ya think so that would be that would be the most popular recent one I mean yeah I a conflict of anything else I'm you know obviously the i believe the xperia s matches it with 720p at 4.3 inches but i don't think that's a better display but in any case yeah i think those are the densest once 4.3 inches with 720p I i I'm with you Chris actually like in practical terms when you think about it even though this display we're talking about is a 1080p one it is actually five inches which makes it even bigger whereas I've already been on the record complaining that 4.7 inches in itself is too bulky for me so for whole point right whole bunch of people you have the HTC One X you have as you say the best display technology seen on the phone yet it looks superb but it's big and now you're just making it bigger and you're not going to have the same display to them because LG isn't the company that built the display in the 1x and it's IPS display so generally not not always but generally been that's like bit worse than the IPS displays it being inside the iphone you know so you might see expect an expansionist size which for most people isn't going to be benefit and a decrease in quality so actually this is really deflating everywhere I was excited about this that's why I'm here to do man I mean keep in mind going back to the announcement of the iphone 4 and the whole concept of the retina displays that it's that pixel density at which individual pixels can no longer be perceived and that's what's I'm around 275 PPI I think and yeah beyond that it's it's unclear what I mean no one has given me a logical answer when I asked it will you know what is the the actual material advantage of pushing a pixel density beyond that I mean because you know even if you're watching say a 1080p movie or in the future down the road of a 4k movie you're gonna end up you know you're not going to be able to perceive the pixels that are that small so you would downscale it anyway to to 720p nutwood look every bit as good at the same screen size and its ass I don't know what's your point it's the same screen size at the same retinal difference like I'm not going to hold a phone up this close what I will hold up that close so is maybe like a visor and I can see this like the pixel density argument continuing a new when we start getting to the google glass era if they're really can start pushing yet at that point we'll start noticing pixel density at that level of two inch whatever i don't know how big glasses are anymore I that's really bright for me to say right now actually and what's it suppose X be our thing uh-oh the oculus VR goggles yes yes which is like I think x 640 x 320 really you can tell the pixels that wasn't yet it's a good test case but it's definitely far and away not ready for prime time yeah I was going to ask about those I think they were freed egos that junk comic head that you tested Ross whose resolution and oats uh I think there's the oculus rift that's now in kickstarter i believe it was like 40 x 320 960 x 320 something like that oh I'm so off thank you Nathan my fact checker right here 1280 by 800 but that's split in half so it's essentially 640 or 720 / I thank you yeah so it's uh you can tell it's not good if you're you know if you have a good prescription I did without glasses so I can't see very well so it's really nice and blurry great complexion all that uh but anyway so yeah so the point is like I think krista thank you you might have convinced me in suede me there is no point for a 1080p 5-inch phone or at least nothing beyond that but going forward i think the next pixel density battle is going to be once we get screens closer to us by necessity virtual reality and augmented reality headsets i think then this whole screen war begins anew that's it i'm actually a little a little sad to think that we're hitting this kind of breaking point with cellphone density that we just don't need a higher resolution like we've hit this kind of pinnacle where it becomes kind of a moot point yeah i think if you look at circus but if we look at apple's history with pushing resolution and pushing the retina branding one of the notable things for me is that Apple didn't just raise the resolution of his displays it really raised the quality so when it did it with the iphone 4 it was up so much better display than he had in the iphone 3gs when it when it called a Retina display the really high resolution one in the new ipad of this year again everybody was fawning over it they were like this is the best display I've seen anywhere ever and what I did it with the retina MacBook Pro same situation so I do you feel like in Apple's case there's a disposal raised in resolution and a raising quality which kind of meshes and gives meaning to the whole retina branding and it also gives value and and something that people could actually you know feel right where as opposed to if you just double up the resolution or quadruple the resolution whatever but leave the quality the same or worse you degrade equality in order to get more pixels and ultimately people aren't I going to appreciate it and liked it as much so I think that's the difference that they made it make maybe agencies kind of falling into that pit full of thinking also more phones if we can say with the only 1080p phone on the market which they wish they might very well do right but it is exactly as chris says turning into a bit of a pissing contest thing and i'm not even sure I mean how psyched the people about specs anymore I can kind of see them catching on to like branding messages like I said with retina with Apple is like does he have the rights in the display they know what it means but it's so widespread you can pick it up but if it's like a 1080p versus 720p display then it becomes a spec comparison as opposed to a big branding message that you can you know attach yourself to I think there's stop ulation I think there's a certain population of the market that is still receptive to you know what number is bigger and they may not even necessarily know what that number means they just say well this number is 1080 and this number 7 20 I want the bigger number and and and to be honest I think that that sometimes is those kinds of silly things that factor into how carriers price devices um you know and of course your point flight there are also certain specs that are very prominent and very well known or their there are certain branded specs that people understand LTE is big one right now that all the carriers are pushing of course retina as well so it we'll see we'll see it's going to be I mean I I think that people might be able to equate 1080p to their TVs because you know for the past decade you know the six years to a decade HDTV really saturated the television market and so consumers are probably still used to being sold on you know 720p and 1080p there may be that number will you know is still in their brain somewhere and they when they see that on a phone it's going to register for them so we'll see sure and just wrap up this 5 inch phone I do feel like the rest of the specs very much in line with a HC has been doing in such just pushing every single thing the Geo benchmark result mentioned Adreno 320 graphics which means Snapdragon s4 chip and we haven't had any that I recall at least any phones that are released with the 320 the upgraded graphics chip this year so that's gonna make it one of the you know hands-down best performing devices and you know pairing that with 1080p display and all of that stuff is just going to make a spectacular recipe in terms of specs right but I mean I also kind of fear that you've already got plenty plenty of specs and firepower with the 1s and the 1x so you know even if you don't put it up I mean what is there to use it but what are you gonna do are you going to actually start encoding 1080p video and you don't start editing and doing all of that stuff how does quainton feel about that obviously recent you're not really gonna do that right so well all of this processing power kind of seems to be going the same way as of the resolution well I have a more important question to pose to you guys regarding this device which is what's a better name the HTC one two or the HTC 2x uh one XL wait did it not as already been done yeah shoot yeah they're uh XXL I kind of like 12 I don't see it ht2 so then they can do one two three and it can be like a whole thing they'll be there stick oh I'll keep adding numbers Creighton is timing in 12 but comma t 00 the one also this is why Creighton does not do branding for major self actress is why I one of those of deep breath come on yeah I mean I actually miss those gressive adjective names the ones here is just kind of feels the 20 steer to me now maybe 80 g to get back I would just like to make the same pay at the same point that I make on every single show which is that mega is an underutilized term in cell phone names so HTC one mega might be good or HTC mega 1 i'm just gonna throw those better I like that sticks some of the commoners uh they'd said one mega we've got the ACC XXL we've got the 2x we've got the HTC One up actually I kind of like that and of course the HTC fast cast thank you crazy talky aficionado longtime listeners of the verge mobile podcast and even the engadget mobile podcast will recall the HTC bacon which still hasn't been used as far as I now so maybe based on whatever your vicious Chris no that was a commoner I believe on an engadget mobile podcast several years ago and I think Neil I was a special guest on that show if I if memory serves me correctly and somehow the topic of HTC phone names came up but we we should that we're not even done talking about HTC we have a bunch of different HTC thanks to talk about right look at big news let's make a quick mention of the menu button update / upgrade which diese has been extremely excited and happy about yeah yeah this isn't a quick mention thing why this is big news in the Android world this sent shockwaves and it fixes one of census many floors now this is I think you're significantly under estimating being poor into this the fact that the fact that HTC I never mind the specific change right the fact that HTC is proactively responding to a very common complaint about like you ex can without upgrading to a new version of Android and and going out there and patching and actually changing the functionality is pretty crazy and I think it's it's more or less without precedent so that's that's an encouraging sign that they're out there very very closely listening to people they're out they've obviously been trawling through threads on XDA and probably some of our sites and this is I think this is really a really positive sign for the way they're going that's not to say that I think that sense for is where it needs to be and we've talked about this at length but this is a this very good sign by the way for those of you who don't know have no clue what we're talking about it the the problem that HTC has with the One X and the one asks is that there's no menu bar excuse me no menu button on the fixed row of buttons at the bottom of the device so for legacy applications that haven't been updated to move the menu up into the action bar like you're supposed to supposed to do with Google's holo design guidelines you get this this extra soft a button bar across the bottom of the screen that takes up an additional what is it hundred make hundred pixels or something with just a single button on it that Center aligned that is three vertical dots which is the menu indicator in android 4.2 it looks weird it's it's bad and we call them out for it in our review and they they went back and and and patched it so that it you you don't you can actually change the functionality of the multitasking button to be a menu button now yeah thanks pretty cool you need to hold it down Oh how's that what I yeah there's a Ivan Ivan updated in mind so I've been played with yet but this is where we need dieter because dieter is like the biggest 1x phonetic in the world and he would be able to talk about this at length but I think you need to hold it down for a second or two but but the the point is that that virtual bar is now gone which was one of the biggest annoyances of not having not adopting the Galaxy Nexus style virtual bar the way the galaxy s3 does it where they have a hard menu button alright well just just to say that you said it's a unprecedented for HTC to adjust the software response to feedback which is true in terms of like adjusting the like the fundamental and the really basic interface and interaction but let's not forget that the company has always been very attentive to feedback if you remember back when the bootloaders book being locked down and then they did the unlocked bootloaders and when they announced they would upgrade the galaxy the AC not the galaxy won't talk about the desire to Gingerbread and oh I mean that all of these things have I mean they're not hd's happiest moments in the company's history but they have Illustrated that when people have cried out and complain about something the company's really tried to make an effort like the the point about the desire is it announced it wouldn't get the upgrade but everybody really complained the sybaris lee and i think HD chopped out a couple of features just to get that upgrade in there which is good you know i mean it's a it's how companies should behave you know they should react yep and and why should they act that way because they're having trouble in in the financial side of the business nice transition that was i planned that one I had that bat waiting for a while that was I'm a little proud of myself right now that was that was perfectly timed perfectly executed but white I'm gonna rely on you to talk about this because I'm not good with numbers nice cover but what's happened with HTC they reported the second quarter revenues mean HTC also funny thing with them is that their financial reports that kind of all over the map so they report an audited numbers at the beginning of a given then three or four weeks later to get around to auditing them so we end up you know usually writing two posts want to say hcs quota for this year is such-and-such the other one is yes somebody rubber-stamped it etc and then it was a third part to this this time around we're HTC reported specific numbers for the month of what much just expired July now I'm so out of it today and they also gave a forecast for quota-free which actually is not a very happy forecast like agency saying and one of his roughest the first quarters of the year this year it improved in the second quarter but it's actually forecasting that things are going to go back to being a stuff as in the first quarter um wish to be is kind of odd because the first course you could say well look at what HC had to present people okay the Rose Island was a strong phone but most of his lineup like was saying was things like the sensation Excel and just uninspiring kind of old designs the one series came in every refresh things it really came up with good designs you know unique selling points like the one X's display and the one assistant pneus any image sense camera sweet and all of these things she then I thought well okay they've corrected themselves in the second quarter and now it's on the up and up but then they're predicting that things won't go on the apple app which honestly kind of leaves me be followed I don't really understand this like the galaxy is free is a great phone but how its managed to sell like well over 10 million units versus the HTC One X which doesn't seem to be generating enough of a pro for HTC just be follows me because I see those phones have been much closer than that I think there are a few explanations I mean you you can't deny the sheer force and momentum of Samsung's scale right this is one of the largest corporations in the world versus you know going up against HTC and so they can they have they have the the manpower and the resources to put the full court press on literally every carrier of import around the world simultaneously and you saw that happen with with s3 and how well coordinated that launch was and and I think that Samsung you know of course what you know we're seeing a lot of this come out in the apple vs samsung trial but i think that they're they're finally learning how to get their ducks in a row and become a very innovative force not just in the android space but in the smartphone space overall and that makes them very dangerous considering how profitable they are every quarter and of course there's the the undeniable advantage of making your own processors and memory and flash and displays and that's an advantage that HTC doesn't have and we've seen all these predictions from analysts over the past year and I think this kind of heated up or the past couple months in particular saying that long-term there are only two players capable of surviving this brutal business Apple and Samsung everybody else is just going to kind of peter out and die which which is really sad considering what great devices HTC makes and what great devices Nokia makes and you know obviously we be its to everybody's benefit to see those companies survive even if you don't own their devices so yes it's just a brutal business yeah but in a sense I've actually if we're bringing back to HTC then launch of the 1x here in the UK was accompanied by a huge marketing saw you know there's a few free papers floating about London which had you know that they're outside covers were plastered with 1x promotional stuff on the front in the back and then he had the paper inside it every carrier in the UK was only seem to be spending quite a bit of money promoting that handset when HTC introduced the one exit said that carriers have never loved a phone or a series of phones as much as they've loved the one series so there was already a whole bunch of carrier buying the it wasn't like the phones were launched without the commensurate amount of hype and promotion material round them and yet you just do this you like gap between them and get it a tree which I don't know as you can explain to myself and also do you point Chris about what people are predicting about long-term the thing about long-term predictions is that they all suck right we actually had this conversation in our chat channel today we're we're like Samsung is today Sony right and then somebody's well Samsung is yesterday's Sony and then somebody in Sony's yesterday Sega and you know you go be pretty that is mean by the way that is very mean it's like I think it's kind of true though it's very true so Vlad I want to cut in just for one second um it's interesting you mentioned like HTC's campaign Chris correct me if you've seen differently but i will say in the united states samsung has gone crazy with the ad campaigns it's in front of every single movie in front of every single newspaper magazine flyer yeah i was all over the olympics and that's course global if HTC had a huge campaign here it was very short-lived I don't remember too much of it especially in the video realm but Samsung has the budget I guess arguably to just go all out it just advertised everywhere I ridiculous yet out yeah the entire city of Chicago is plastered and galaxy s3 ads right now I mean complete saturation if you think android I mean Samsung's point is to come out there and say we're the only choice for that and I think they've done a great job I mean I don't see a lot for LG HTC's maybe the one other company besides Samsung that I'm seeing any advertisements for and it's been a long time and relative to Samsung's like weight of advertising and a huge campaign it's minimal at best ok but I mean that's obviously good to know but like the question I'm trying to get to the bottom of is whether it's just a matter of advertising saturation like can you really I mean obviously you need a strong product to start with to promote but then can you really just ensure success by just carpet bombing everyone maybe you can if you can what does blood let me ask you what when you see HTC ads what are the advertising with the 1x how are they showing it off primarily over here in the UK it was this uh it was this video of skydivers skydivers and taking photos with the 1x oh yeah sure I know it right that it can it can take photos really quickly etc and you know they so edgy and sporty and fun and super quick and stuff potentially yeah what we see over here is the same time sharing we will not stop talking about NFC bump sharing which yes I don't think that's not even unique to galaxy s3 is it I mean that's a android feature I think they enhanced it but they danced it in the same way that that Android 4.1 enhances it like it you know it can it can transfer more types of information and larger chunks of information than Android Beam could and point oh so yeah it it it also uses Wi-Fi direct to in the phones but unhelpfully it's not Universal Wi-Fi direct connectivity is only samsung phones of which the only supporting devices galaxy is free but yeah basically you can initiate a link between two galaxy s fries by bumping them with the NFC connection and then from that you can establish a Wi-Fi direct which means you don't need to have them side by side then they just kind of Bend is just working with their wireless radios the Wi-Fi ready right so apples or an apple sorry excuse me Samsung's entire ad campaign for this is like this is what we can do that no one else can do as far as we want you to know in America they're doing a pretty good job of doing that I think taking a page from Apple's playbook which is to say let's show functionality let's not say this is just a sexy device that has these specs it could go this fast we're just going to say you can do this with our phone and the assumption is it's only our phone and it's something no one else can do and by the way we're everywhere so you're going to think about us anyway yeah I mean pretty much that seems to be the case I would factor a lot of it on their impressive ad campaign name recognition in the fact there's just one galaxy s3 it's not the evo 4g LTE it's not the yeah the XV are as with varying qualities of varying tears Samsung has come out One flagship phone it has made their baby across all carriers I mean Jamie Samson has come out with I think half a dozen phone yeah well they're only advertising the one though right yes three right I mean I think I yes the bus the mini the something did this is actually 0 4g i faint as a galaxy is a stew like how did you manage to get the tune of a phone that nobody ever cared or knew about stuff I most of those are there but then maybe maybe Samsung is such a massive company that it might even be operating like two separate businesses where one is the old-fashioned you know Turner as many phones as you can try and reach the low price points sell it to you know developing markets to emerging markets for yada yada and then a separate business which is like the beat Apple a section of the office basically we're digit but it's just saying okay app was doing this we're gonna do it but just differently enough so we don't get sued into oblivion I don't think you're that far off I think that that they definitely are still producing a wide variety of nameless you know practically nameless devices with the sole goal of placating there uh you know there's they're sold in carrier base they you know they know that they have all these slots they need to fill and they're just like I you know we have such scale we can we can pump out you know a dozen bespoke models for metropcs if we want to and you know nobody cares and they'll sell 5,000 and no you know it's it's fine and then they have their their real Samsung strategy which is that the s3 the note and and now the note 10.1 and all that is built around the Samsung ecosystem and things like like all share and you know that ties into what they're doing trying to do in the living room and you know that's that's that's the real Samsung as far as I'm concerned the rest is just you know MIT you know make a quick buck by selling into these carriers that are expecting us to fill these slots yeah that's burner but um I was just thinking on that point actually because you're saying just a little earlier Chris about the note too that he might come out I think Samsung has already made it official that is announcing the note 2 yeah but I believe so so is that it's definitely announcing the note 2 at the end of August Eddie fur which you know the rumor and speculation and the expectation was that it would be a 5.5 inch device and be all sorts of amazing whatever do you think Samsung would at any point just kind of say we're actually these are our top three selling devices this is our range of devices say galaxy it's free you know the flagship break it a smartphone the note or note 2 or note whatever in the five inches middle ground whatever like Ross was saying a phablet range and then something like the note 10.1 for the full-size tablet you think Sam so we'll ever get to the stage where say okay we're just gonna work on these free products and I'll be outraged I don't think they're in there showing any signs of that let's put it that way I mean I the galaxy s I mean maybe they're trying to set a precedent with the way they handled the galaxy s3 launch but I I don't think so I i'm not i'm not seeing that if you look at some of the court documents and look at the at the road maps that they have for 2012 i mean there's all sorts of weird garbage on the mid-range and low end for for the US market on all these carriers and it you know i think that samsung has the design and manufacture of these meaningless devices down to such a science that their development costs are as close to zero as they could possibly be and so it's it's almost to the point where these things are just pure profit as long as carriers are saying we want this stupid phone with this keyboard and it's got to have a a button to our web portal on the keyboard and junk like that as long as carriers keep saying that and paying for them to range them Samsung is going to be one of the companies that that honors those requests along with huawei and ZTE in the long term I think that you're gonna see I mean obviously apple doesn't play that game nokia i don't think is going to ever play that game and I don't think Sony is either so under subject of companies who pees carriers as a matter of course and we've done a bit more coverage on rims fortunes and faith recently um and I'm hoping one of you guys actually wanted to read this stuff and slip by me well but so good yeah so so so so let's just say that if you haven't read Jesse's piece Jesse actually lives in Metro Detroit which is not far from from Waterloo which of course is rim headquarters so he he traveled up there and and and talked to some of the people in Waterloo to see how rims fortunes and misfortunes actually affect people on the ground and I and please take the time to read this piece because it's a very interesting piece of course Jesse had a rim piece that went up was a 23 months ago as well and you should read both of those those articles because it's it's a really fascinating look at the decline of the company and what it means for the local economy but um uh what what what fascinated me about this piece is how uh how these people are realists I mean I guess that shouldn't be a surprise right um they eat you you you wouldn't expect I think these are smart people they're they're good people and you wouldn't expect them to be fleeced by rim necessarily but they say I mean most of the people that he talked to are realists about rims fortunes and where they stand in the market and what their opportunities are and and it's it's uh it's kind of it's it's it's sad to read and it really makes you hope that that RIM finds a way to uh to make it in this market but it's safe I don't know where they're going to go from here torsten Hines has not shown me anything that proves that he is able to lead this company out of the nightmare that it's in and that's not to say anything about whether he's a good CEO or not because I don't think I think that that all the you know every single possible set of odds was stacked against him by the time he took the helm it sits squarely on Jim Balsillie and Mike Lazaridis who brought that Connie to where it is today it's it's not not Hines so I don't think we can really make any ruling on what kind of guy he is but yeah it's it's it's a good piece please take the time to read it do your do your pocket or how it is that you read these sorts of things um but but speaking of times we should we should talk a little bit about this latest thing that he's saying which kind of goes along with what he's been saying along with it's the strongest now he's saying he's hinting very strongly that they could license blackberry 10 because rim itself is not able to achieve the economies of scale that it needs to to compete with who it needs to compete with in the smartphone market and I think the the perennial question then that everyone has been asking since day one is who would have licensed blackberry 10 and why so I want to get your guys take who do you think would realistically license blackberry 10 and what good would it do them um i would need blackberry tend to exist first of all but the sauce um i don't have much better answer i was gonna say Samsung because why not they have everything else they make windows phones that are by the way really bad you can definitely tell where Samsung actually cares to put in some design and I don't know I mean I feel like those you know people if if rim can leverage any carrier and I don't know if it can't anymore but if it can it could maybe talk to the people who do make those orders for cares to Samsung's of Huawei is eet EEZ I don't see anyone going like really jumping at this saying this is the way I'm going to differentiate I'm going to get a blackberry 10 device out there I want a manufacturer one I don't see anyone really wanting to do that anything I've seen from blackberry 10 doesn't impress me enough beyond windows phone or android which have become more the de facto choice yeah i agree i think the only opportunity that that they have here is for an oem to get fed up with google shenanigans or Microsoft shenanigans enough to say you know we the the only way we can do this only way we can continue to make phones the way we want to make them is to go a different direction that has a chance of surviving and they might be led to believe that the only way to do that is to license something that has a name brand and is already built and exists and it kind of does everything that needs to do is an operating system and of course that would be blackberry 10 the other hand the other option would be open webOS I guess but it's not not showing any signs of doing anything interesting in all about the time is cute yes right Tizen which is what the fourth or fifth transformation of that platform skirted as Moblin right moblin and then me go and my mo and all this jazz so yeah I mean that's the only thing that I could I can think I don't know who that would I don't know if that would be a ZTE or a huawei or what I don't know it would be nobody Chris and it is there's so much so much wishful thinking / conditional circumstances that you need in order for somebody to even give a damn about licensing blackberry 10 it's it's silly yeah when you're saying that the people Waterloo arraylists my interpretation of that is basically that they're leaving town because that that's the only thing a realist can do in the circumstances that room is in and when you said we can't judge thorsten heins the CEO I completely agree and I think we'll ever be able to judge him because as far as I'm concerned he's stuck in this sea Quinn's like it if you think of the CEOs job as a game of chess he's stuck in the sequence where he's basically being repeatedly and very slowly very methodically being taken apart and he's trying to do the right move but there's only one right move which is always the wrong way so the best he can do is you know make the least wrong move in these circumstances I don't even know what that is anymore I don't end yeah okay there's only two circumstances in which blackberry 10 licensing would ever be a significant thing in the mobile market one is if blackberry 10 is amazing and actually compels people to go and use it which would be such as such a high standard because everybody who's taken up windows phone has clashed with the fact it doesn't have an app ecosystem and it is the reason why people are sticking with Android as long and as much as they are because it has a built-in ecosystem and you know people will dance to Google's tuned because so much is kind of given to them and so much is there already in the software so I mean even if your profit margin is a huge would Android at least the things that your consumers seek are there blackberry 10 you are extremely likely to have the full set of basic always functionality to start with if we use the blackberry playbook as an example I think it's a very instructive example but even if you did the apple ecosystem will never be there from day one so the idea that bb10 will be so compelling that guy's exits you be thinking yes we license this we get ahead of the curve get ahead of everybody else i I just find I Xtreme Ian like yeah asleep let me let me just play real quick let me play devil's advocate with you here because I think that's exactly what black or what room is trying to do this year with the blackberry jam events and by delaying the platform into q1 2013 is they're trying to make sure that they don't have another playbook on their hands they want to come out of the gate a with with excited and ready developers and be with a functionally complete platform okay but excited and ready developers I'm not an ecosystem there um you know to put it bluntly they're like the sperm before the ecosystem they had the seeds of one right but then I write an ecosystem in existence so nobody's going to license bb10 in q1 2013 if that was licensing it then how long is this game that pulls the high since playing because I I mean his plans seem to actually extend beyond the point at which rim needs to essentially sell out or go bankrupt like that's that's kind of the way that it seems to be you know going back to the old joke that somebody made in our comments it was rumors postpone the release a blackberry 10 until afterwards shut down and go bankrupt and gone out of business yeah which is a really neat way of summing it up but yet the second scenario that I think you alluded to chris is this idea that people feel I guess oppressed by google in the Android ecosystem oppressed by the fact they can't generate profits which you know LG can't but then LG has its other issues that are not just relates to Android and then maybe people don't feel like Windows Phone is competitive enough and then out of the spiration they go and jump to branded alternative I just don't see that desperation happening within the next how many months until q1 2013 what seven eight months I just don't see that happening that quickly yeah yeah thnkx arias just free there in the proverbial her locker you know what they really need there's there's a lot of money to be made here in inventing some sort of supercomputer the scale of which has never before been seen in the super computing industry where torsten hines can sit down at a terminal and simulate in in their entirety every possible scenario um we're like you know if we sell then here's what happens if we if we don't sell here's what happens right down to like simulating individual consumers everywhere around the world and what they buy and why they buy it someone's got to come up with this up or maybe it already exists and I just don't know anything about it because I'm not a businessman but someone needs to do that software we are being told uh dear listeners by our by our production team that our window to broadcast is closing rapidly so we we are going to have to pick and choose from our remaining topics and it's probably just as well because it's kind of slim pickins this week should we talk very very quickly in like one minute about the tmobile mytouch because David Pierce who has been a guest on this program before reviewed these devices and they are from Huawei and Vlad I know that you're a huge Huawei fan and and rocks I think you are normal actually oh yeah yeah Ross actually little-known fact about Ross Ross if you go into his home he has a collection of every Huawei device ever released in the US plus a selection of a few European and Asian Huawei devices this is a so little known that i didn't even know myself Wow like uh okay self-realization here so here's the thing it we don't need to talk too much about these because I already played with them before we talked about him on the show that they're they're very mid-range low-end mid-range and I feel like t-mobile has been pushing the mytouch line lower and lower and lower with each subsequent generation of device they are very heavily carrier branded because t-mobile is the owner of the mytouch brand this isn't like a global range for them this is a bespoke device or set of devices from Huawei that they made specifically for t-mobile and I think that David sums it up very nicely these could have been say six and a half to seven scoring devices on one condition if they ran Android 4 4.1 out of the gate the fact that they are launching in August of 2012 with android 2.3 is it's not even ridiculous anymore it's just that they're there isn't a word in the English language to describe this travesty I don't want to bad-mouth David but I think we did score these a little too high like at 6.6 for a phone that I can't possibly recommend to anybody and any given moment is a little a little tune nice is too forgiving it's definitely Huawei fanboyism at its finest so with linux boy recording time and we're discussing gingerbread phones I new outrage okay Vlad you you lead the way tell me what you want to talk about yeah what's next on the like it was it sister talking about my outrage um Aaron from our European see from our UK team wrote he wrote this is my next article which you know on our website is an homage for a device which we or well one particular member of our staff it was particularly passionate about and tends to purchase as his or her next gadget device machine a significant dollar they do talk about this the the latest deep dark desire from the world technology is this my next description Aaron took deep and dark way way too serious yes that's yeah that's a good way putting it uh I mean Neil I put it as this is the craziest thing we have ever published and he's probably accurate in that respect and the subject of errands desires and passions was actually the nokia 808 you which suffered i Ross mentioned before the photo show today was does iron actually know that his fingers the phone as opposed to camera well that's the thing right like we've said before that if Nokia had stripped this of its gsm radio and positioned it as a novelty like you know really cool point-and-shoot camera with like a giant touchscreen display on the back they probably could have could have sold it in a completely different way for less money and it may have been moderately successful I don't know but now because it's a it's there you know it's a symbian phone that completely changes the the landscape of how you sell this device and the kinds of people who are gonna buy it which is nobody hey come on now all right Aaron yes there's an excuse me I mean if you have spent as much money on a cutting-edge camera why not get the lytro I mean it just if is he if he's using this as a phone I haven't I haven't stomached to get through pass like graph five flower tea doing over there across the pond even you train this man yeah this is an extension of you I hope you realize and and I'm also the guy who introduced into the 808 PureView so this is really just the my influence playing havoc on to the world but I think to defend arrows point which I yeah but to defend this point is a local colleague he does make the point that being on the cutting edge of technology is rarely a comfortable experience right so so he's as far as he's concerned the compromises of symbian and the compromises of losing essentially losing smart phone functionality were using the 808 PureView okay stop laughing Ross come on now and you know he's never said that he wants this to be his only phone right to him this is the perfect secondary phone which you might um but you might you might be able to sympathize with because if your secondary phone is just something you many phone calls with and in this particular case is something that you specifically for photos it can work I mean the thing that I know for a fact is that it pretty kind of blows to have this with a purple foam because it's bulky and heavy and carry two phones around is a pain in every side um so personally I just I just feel he's wrong but I mean he has a point he's wrong but he has a point to some degree I mean I can see you know it's empathy right where you don't agree but you can kind of see where persons coming from well I mean we can we can revisit this once per voi peer review actually comes to a windows phone ya voy there you go this is what we called the DHD phone I would love to own a phone call p oh boy pure boy your boy your boy yeah it sounds classy k it sounds kind of like savoy or something but in an ozone word you just can't eat it you know how people make things sound frenched make me sound classy well that's it ah i see everyone first I at first a walk drove wha at first I superiors Boyd a voi d pure void and and there are many different ways that you could take that i was thinking like you know and this is this is going to be a little disgusting but you know like when you drink way too much water that's like a pure void you know I'm talking about like it's just you know I do Chris Agee I think everybody got it we should just move on okay uh we should we should talk about exactly one more topic before Creighton kills us and I think that should be your dead trigger interview personally okay okay Oh before was he before with you I wanna repeat the shoutout formerly run for Brian because he's killing it with the Apple window yes I'm covered he really is I i know i work at the verge which makes me inherently biased and I oh I'm sorry not inherently biased apparently bias I should not be trusted but seriously like I come to the side and I see how much firsthand reporting we have from the Apple and Samsung lawsuit and I am just in priced bike and it is most of it is done by Brian who's killing it and but but that's not to say that he's my favorite news manager nathan which mike asleep i actually want to say not just Brian I say Brian sigh great support support staff neil has been helping out a ton madakari is our another resident legal expert we have who can't be there at the trial person he's actually very depressed about that cries himself to sleep at night thinking about reports and all that but matt is helping from a distance as much as he can Neil eyes chiming in a bunch of you know a dozen other writers on staff have done everything they can to help Brian it's been a huge collaborative effort obviously brian has been killing it in every single way possible I interests a fascinating it's a fascinating case to watch and clearly the judge hates both sides so so I love this is part that I love that the judges just so finds the whole thing so repugnant like Apple and Samsung gettin into nitty gritty and trying to argue this really woolly you know well it looks like this therefore such and such such and such and the judge is just like ah you guys disgust me go away yeah I love those reactions I love this little ablas it's a it's a wild case and like literally every single day that the case has been progressing there have been a really insane revelations that have come out of it or really insane rulings from the judge and I a feeling thats can continue for the entire duration of the trial so we have um we have one of our very special story streams may have heard of them devoted to this case and all of the news it's coming out of that case is getting attached the story stream will post link to on the site attached to the podcast post that you can get right to that stream and stay tuned last week I'm sure on the verge cast Brian will make another cameos we're hoping he will every week and then some to talk about row yes we need we need some more West Coast buddies in west coast accents uh to you know diversify a video this this brian i'm trying to think I don't think Brian or Scott or certainly not dieter since he's not from the west coast but those guys don't really have quote-unquote west coast accents do they do they maybe they do I don't know um we're talking about this a little early on when when we're saying about mispronouncing things because you never actually hear people say them you just read things you just respect me engaged in rhythm yeah I don't actually know many people from the verge I just see text from them sir brave new world man did use the world but yeah okay let's let's discuss dead trigger and this whole hype / controversy / whatever is developed around it so mething games the guys who make dead trigger shadowgun and some samurai to some of the more popular by war games I spoke with their CEO Mara grab-ass and we just discussed the whole thing we're dead forget I should go in to free to pay free to pay yeah like that friends play monetization model he used to be a paid app it used to be 99 cents both on iOS and Android is switched to a free-to-play model and one is switched on Android the word from matt finger was that there's an unbelievably high rates of piracy on android when it made the same switch on iOS there wasn't the same outburst which I think struck a lot of people as kind of disingenuous because they didn't you know you know they didn't have the same outpost by iOS but but in any case what I did was exchanged a few emails with him what a conversation about that and he provided me with some stats behind what were they were saying so on Android the piracy rate is apparently eighty percent so eighty percent of players of dead trigger were playing unlicensed copies and their basic apparently sales data versus analytics data which might not be perfect but it gives you kind of a rough idea and on iOS is sixty percent and in general the point from him is that it's it's an unsatisfactory situation for people and they kind of forced into the hole let's make it free to play let's make that's essentially nickel and dime people and just try and make make our money by selling tiny little things in the game which to me is kind of annoying i am much preferred to pay for the game up front and then just enjoy it and use it and not have to pay real money again for small parts in it I know how you feel Chris no I totally agree and I also want to point out that I was shocked when when he came out with the thigh OS piracy rate I you know I assumed it would be like single digits or something but it's it's nearly as outrageous as then right number it's like what are these people like I you know I I get that that people don't like to pay for stuff I get it but he lose sight of the fact there are real people doing real work to bring these games to the market and it's very easy to obscure that when you're looking at the at the android market google play market so is a little just disheartening but he did kind of he he was surprisingly upbeat i would say once you I mean I he's generated a lot of press from this I'm sure it's helping his download rates and yeah yeah he's free-to-play model quite a bit to have it in the news yeah yeah just just to clarify the CEOs name is Merrick rabbits grab-ass 8r a bass crab basket oh okay go I got it okay listen dude is late I am tired and I haven't had a drink in a while okay I drink of water obviously a water yes so my lip service parched all right um well actually I asked him about that about whether this was essentially a ploy for publicity and the thing that he said was that um enemy again you kinda have to take him at his word here is that the company wasn't actually so happy about all the hype that came out of it they were asked why you reducing the price to free they said what will you know they gave a blunt response they said wow it's really high Paris away and honestly I have to agree with that if eighty percent if that figure is the jit summer of players of a 99-cent game are playing unlicensed copies then something is really wrong there let's just but beyond their sorry go ahead gross no no cuz I mean I'll get off at tanger I finish your thought I'm sorry okay but beyond that what I'm what a girl from him was that they actually had to spend a whole bunch of time answering questions from guys such as myself and they had to dedicate a whole bunch of time repeating the same houses over and over again talking to people as opposed to you know using that time to produce plan etc do whatever game studios do so you know for them it was a it was a big time sink even if it increased you know publicity a little is temporarily um so I kind of see that perspective but you're going to launch it on Tangier us that's how much attention I you know I I'm happy that he actually got back to you and kind of explain the kind of methodology of coming to that figure still sixty percent seems really high I was trying to find I couldn't find a good number for Lee cyanogenmod downloads even get a feel for how big that is versus the entire iOS field it's interesting too is shadowgun and you know samurai to and dead trigger is that market just so tied and connected to the jailbreak audience I find it surprising however to disagree with both you on the business model section I'm actually really happy about free to play I think it's actually quite an interesting model and I'm curious to see kind of how it goes you're offering something for free getting people into it giving you some free experience it's actually really high quality and then kind of adding on to of course the question is what you do beyond that we've seen this kind of happen for a long time Xbox Live has mandated demos for all its big releases so you have a somewhat free-to-play model there where you're getting a demo experience and you play you pay for the full game and you're seeing lot of people experiment with obviously more disingenuous sometimes even more genuine ideas depending on how it affects the gameplay specifically single versus multiplayer I am off I'm all honestly for trying out this new business model that helps them great for them what is your specific concern with a free-to-play business model in this case let me give you a very specific example this has nothing to do with dead trigger but I want to give you a very specific example of where free to play is uh is super annoying for freemium I guess would be the correct term here Triple Town Triple Town is the most annoying freemium model in history the and you know I mean like you're gonna end up paying because like they you know they it's brilliant it's both brilliant and extremely annoying because you get a certain number of like moves and then you run out of moves and you can't make any more moves unless you pay or you can wait summer Achilles amount of time to get a new move and actually I think a lot of those turn based games work the same way but it's it's super annoying in electric because you terrible you want to make you want to make like 10,000 moves every time you play and you can only make like 50 and then you have to pay like you know a dollar 400 moves or something right now that's that is insane and unfair I don't there's I like that model at all but there are other things you can do like you can value I think team fortress 2 valve is of course an exception because they've made millions and billions of dollars you know pretty much just kind of doing what the one they have a loyal fan base there are ways of making it work I think they're still experimenting that is a great example of a terrible way of making something free to play yeah I would with done with you I'd much rather just pay ten dollars and just have unlimited moods for a game that I played Triple Town I'm with you on this is a big waste of time but I can't stop playing yeah well just to make that distinction as well because Merrick was really keen to make it between the idea freemium where you do have to pay to continue and free-to-play like as far as he's concerned there are two very distinct things because free-to-play game is one that you can complete without ever need to make any extra purchases plus a freemium one where you fundamentally can't get to the end of the game without making extra purchases now a lot of people will say this and a lot of people in comments have said this dead trigger is more a freemium game than its free-to-play you basically have to go into the store spend some real money in order to get a gun which will get you through the game in some reasonable amount of time as opposed to commit in your entire life to grind it through it just you know why that's separate point but the other thing and then the thing that actually bothers me more is that ok if you pirate the 99 cent game which relies on in-game purchases to begin with you're not really going to disturb the equilibrium too much it I mean we know where the money's coming for for that game but if you're doing that two games which cost five dollars eight dollars ten dollars right things like shadowgun every lease then you're kind of undermining the entire market for games of that cause right because in order to I mean this isn't just games this is applications as well I mean the reason apps of riding as much as they are on Mac on the desktop is because people are buying them right and and small kind of tailor-made apps the exactly the apps that you lack on windows I mean if you get one of those apps on windows it gets pirated so quickly everybody knows is pirated and available so quickly that nobody bothers to pay for it nobody but us to go and invest have a much cash in it whereas on Mac most people have him pay for and then you kind of get this culture and you also get you know you also get the history of people making their money back when they invest in developing you know more sophisticated high quality applications and games which again encourages further investment in the same thing and that's not going to happen if we're going to you know pirate the crap out of these games right breast thing that bothers me I think the ideas that you can't stop piracy but you can incentivize purchasing in some way however I guess to you know to the point of mad fingers now that if you're going to pirate the game you can only get so far you have to pay for them at some point of course someone will find a workaround for that too but it's another level of a annoyance to the point of users say screw it i'm going to give you a dollar because it's really not a big deal yeah i mean doesn't doesn't thing we would just we started off this podcast last show talking about the HD super folk and we started off with me excited because it has so much potential by given when he comes out that's what we'll be talking about we're talking about the potential of at 8p display and a crazy processor and LTE and all of those things and we'll be like well actually were the games where are the things that make use of the Audrina 320 graphics and they won't be there and it exists my right and my feeling and it is guilty feeling for my perspective as well because I don't make much of a habit of spending in app stores I don't make much of a habit of pirating but I does I just don't like spending a nap so is precisely because when you spend the two amounts you never realize how much you're spending our to you end up spending tons so I tried to refrain from that but the guilty sense that I get is because I'm not doing that i'm not encouraging the things that i want to see well I think there's also a more fundamental problem with the Android Marketplace google play and i'm not trying to hate on too much i could just be snarky and say well you can always get infinity blade to for your HTC device because there's a bootleg version of that now available there is oh there was I don't they don't really took it down it was a breaking news rustled the hell no it's ice never i work with vlad for a long time i've never heard him get that spontaneously excited about anything I know it's actually quite a thing of beauty i knows that there's that fake thing what the point is um I don't trust the google play store i have an inherent distrust of a store that's not vetted properly wear a fake infinity blade to can just be put on there for many many hours oh the fake one right yeah the fake one sorry it's not not actually real but that's my point that was like there is so much I don't know if you see malware I'm sure there's a lot of malware in the google play store it's just not vetted that much there's a level just trust among the consumer I don't want to give money to these people unless they're very very trusted and sifting through that it's still a pain the you know so still painful thing to do even when there's editors choice and there's trusted developers or whatever you want to do to differentiate I hate to give Apple credit for this but the closed gate system of the marketplace really does stand out and if Google Play if Google wanted to marketplaces one I can trust and one that's just everything I think I might learn to trust it a little more in that sense for now that extra freedom has led to a level oh I'm not sure if I want to pay it's been i'm going to download it just means you're not going to get as much of my money and I'm not gonna have as much of a trust level with paying for anything much to vlad's point one thing that really helped was when they used to have the 24-hour a return period which yeah I think that they they came to the conclusion that that was inhibiting like developers really hated that because it made it too easy to develop buyer's remorse over the course of a day and return the app so they reduce that window to 15 minutes which is barely long enough to download and install the app much less test it out and decide whether it actually is any good so even if that were like an hour or two that would I think make a big difference and kind of instill some confidence well is that it really teach people that's an option on how to do it it would even when it was a 24 hour period it wasn't always the most obvious way of getting that and what you know getting to the right turn right no I I do feel like demo versions of any sort of software I just kind of inherently necessary and useful and helpful and anybody who's you know pissing and moaning about they're not paying the upfront price because they think is too high but then you're not offering a demo version you're kind of on the money you're on argument because I always feel if I'm a software developer right I can give people with demonstration I can give them an idea of my software and then hope that they would find it useful enough to use long term and pay the full price for okay I always kind of prefer I mean this is a personal preference but I prefer to just pay how much things cost I personally hate the the American thing with tipping because it's such a precise science and you're supposed to pause the subjective judgments about people's performance and the other guy the other whereas I'd much rather say okay just charge me however much you cost you to produce this food host these facilities hire these people etc etc and that would be there why do I have to tip why do I always have to get so granular with the payments and the money and all of this mess it's beautiful dream beautiful dream he's dreaming by Davis Rio is called Europe hahaha the American Dream is real it's called Europe that's a notable right there tanishaa we we should we should wrap this thing seriously it's retired it's for every time it's uh we're on the hour we precise and now I'm rambling so break it up the decision but whatever okay so good i just want to mention a couple of quick news tidbits before we do run away microsoft was renamed the windows phone marketplace windows phone store so be excited uh fewer syllables yay and AT&T is apparently announced that he was shut down his 2g network by 2017 Chris one sentence reaction who needs to G boom done okay so does that count as a bomb though to download to end the show on I think so 2g you know old school uh nostalgia cetera like yeah maybe maybe maybe the first time you fell in love with someone it was over 2g co on a tease sure that would network that was actually made a good that would have made a good cold open right there glad you were onto something there you know falling in love with someone 2g network you could have made that work yeah same actually awake when I was in the introduction it would have been beautiful but that's a beautiful drink um but anyway you can keep in touch with us you can keep track of us on the virginal come website available on the internet you can find us on Twitter and I've Vlad several uh chris is at z pal as you know Ross is at oh no Rosco Nathan what's nathans to the handle happening and he's looking dick I think I'd wait what at Nate Ingram dating at beta group Nate Ingram which is ing ra h am yes and I know my peoples names even if i don't know the to the handles all together we are at burge you can email us actually we still got that email going on ma show with the volcom i believe it is and you can draw by enough forums you can leave a comment so this life post and you can leave a comment on the adventure post where we publish the whole video in the audio and all of the RSS itunes etc etc if you see is embarrassing huggers if you want that's allowed that's allowed it's permitted and we'll see you next week to get a readout dieter bohn who on Twitter can be found it backhoe pick up I for ladies you