Gadgetory

in the smartphone eco system the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups the conglomerates who claim to provide innovative new products and the verge bubble show hosts who call them out on their shenanigans these are their stories hi I'm dieter bohn a blast hello i'm chris sigler and this is the verge mobile show this is this is a virgin mobile lon lon verge episode of 12 week of August thirteenth thank you very much to the in decimal shot hollister for our introduction this week I thought that was pretty special he's the man with the voice of gold and by the way dieter I think I speak for Vlad when I say that I very much missed you last week not to say Ross wasn't an amazing guest host but I personally missed you I I missed you guys as well it was a it was a sad time I instead of you guys I had I had Dan Hesse who is very cool and very tall but not as uh not as fun also we are strongly or anything yeah we're in all beard podcast today we are we are actually I'm being this is a little embarrassing but I haven't actually looked at the live feed yet so I have no idea what led looks like is this beard lush is it is it glorious its glorious I don't know if I'd call it lush though now it's uh it's in the process of growing it's in the process it's getting there finally I'm not looking at a live stream either but i don't think that i mentioned this to you before but when you I think you tweeted a picture of yourself with like a handlebar thing going on and it was I mean to look absolutely amazing and I have no idea why you didn't keep that I don't know I I i kinda ended up feeding wrong like this was just a bra appearance having a mustache you mean I grew that out especially Kris as you know I appreciate that you meant to having a mustache is wrong I don't want anybody to be right just sign oh I feel the same way I hope you look that good the same way actually this we're going down that topic I came across this website I think it's askmen com which okay the website isn't that random were weird but the article was it was like the top 10 web not websites top 10 countries with the most massages in them and so here actually ranked in the top 10 tells relevance of Sasha's yeah i think it probably isn't like absolute numbers its mustaches relative to men or relative to males but I still impressive and surprising and would you say that they're like they're really nice-looking mustaches are they like Ron Swanson caliber mustaches or they kind of thin could they use some work I mean I think most of them a pretty strong fine mustache is it's it's the is that Mediterranean stock we were never short of Fisher or any other sort of that but anyway mobile devices yeah we think we have got it I got it I've got a we are broadcasting on the internet showing you our facial hair live for many of you using flash and flash is going away on Android ki Lee like that that so basically they're there they're gonna stop providing it in Google Play nay android market tomorrow as we record this and I want to say I'm not sad to see it go but a tiny tiny wee bit sad that it is going before we have like good reliable consistent mobile experiences on Android for video I just wanted to watch this morning actually a vimeo video didn't work on the nexus 7 and it's like oh well that sucks then I tried it on the ipad no problem so I am sad that I'm not sad to see flash go on Android because it was never any good at all ever but I am sad that it does mean that like that last fall back solution for watching certain content is just not going to be there well this I think it's an important thing though because it puts really puts the pressure on the entire industry to step up and and replace it right you know as long as flashes around and available on all these new devices that that kind of lessons the impetus to make things work correctly and I think that you know if you'd asked me in in 2008 I would have told you or even 2010 I probably would have told you that I I deeply deeply despised Apple her steadfastly refusing to support flash on mobile but in retrospect I think it was the right move and it helped move the industry along and now this is going to be the next step to push it to the next level where we are completely a you know not a reliant on flash I agree we're not there yet but hopefully this will take us there wait Chris didn't like did it did you not like it when Apple didn't want to support flash because I then can lay claim to being right at a time where she was so terribly wrong because i was in support of apples decision i SD to just said flash on android or any sort of mobile device has never really worked properly and where it's worked its consumed power both in terms of processing power and battery life in ways that just don't fit mobile devices at all so it hasn't really been a useful or functional addition at all so apples decision not to support it not to get into that entire mess was absolutely the right one but I also also thought that was the case at the time you know when when Steve Jobs was writing his thoughts and flash and he had like what was it like six reasons why it was a nightmare it was it was flesh that he broke there but was a six reasons flash is a nightmare i don't i don't remember he wrote his open letter hot flash yeah oh yeah i think it was six reasons for those oh yes it's not opened on some web reliability battery life touch and growing dependent on third-party tools those were six yeah so I don't necessarily agree with every single point on his list but at a time a lot of people divided that is just you know a bit of arrogance or whatever one apples part and just trying to be different from everybody else and it is absolutely true that if flash could be made to work with mobile devices it was the idea of standard because which so ubiquitous on a desktop every video hosting service a video sharing service we've had has been flash-based from the start people are doing html5 video streaming as an add-on as a secondary option and again as leader said is still in the experimental stage not everybody has or I don't know if anybody has really good play like that for html5 so it would have been great if it worked but it never did so why should we be sad no I never worked on mobile it worked fine on the desktop with the exception of the two rendus you know prop dessert matter like there's a whole lot of reasons it didn't it didn't work you know in the past few years but initially it was great my problem is that that html5 just isn't there I mean there was my you know the experience I have every day trying to watch video on Android devices that don't support html5 or rather the way that the app developer the website developer coded their html5 version of the video it doesn't appear on Android and that's really the issue is I feel like there's not a de facto this is how everybody should embed video now solution on html5 I know that there were there's this this fight with Google than Mozilla was in an apple was the in the debate about what exactly the html5 video standard should be in terms of an coding the video and serving it you know the way that you embedded at a page is relatively simple and I don't know exactly the statuses on that battle but I do know that when I'm on a mobile device and there's video that I want to watch from Comedy Central or Vimeo or whomever that I just cannot assume that it's going to work it works on usually iOS because it's so ubiquitous and everybody knows how to code for it but on Android and you know other platforms you know it's just I can never really know and I find myself saving stuff to pocket and then going back in my desktop later so I can watch it and that's annoying I also think that the html5 experience not just with video but in general like you know there are there are some things we have like an html5 experience and a flash experience and the flash experience is still a little bit better or richer and we need to get to the point where we can completely supplant flash we're not there yet a good example is light row which I have right here in my hands you guys probably aren't seeing it but the the Lytro embed to do the interactive depth of field 4-h for the vm just the web-based version is not nearly as good as as the flash embed and so you know that that's one of many examples where we need to we need to improve that ok ok that's fair enough but seriously the portable flash and indeed to said it works for a necessity that's what farm that stuff just today I published this article / editorial where I embedded a number of flash videos and I could tell you that while I was composing it and looking at it in our layout editor the number of times at the flash video just completely blanked out and I was seeing a white space on the page and it sometimes it will come back sometimes I would hover over the white space in the video pop up and sometimes I would need to refresh entirely in order to see the video again so that's one thing it was happening with me on chrome but you could you can see those issues in every browser and all of us have had this issue of having a flash video playing somewhere in a tab somewhere on your browser and then your mouse pointer jerz disappears right maybe this is again chrome specific but we've all had this issue before cried and moaned about this issue Adobe's never fixed it and I mean we already know that a dog is you know abandoning flash everywhere um which again to me is good riddance but I don't want us to UM speak a flash in overly positive terms just because it's dying and that's a habit not to speak badly of the dead right to drive me nice I I just don't want us to sugarcoat flashes sucked was such a such a long time um and it's really it's really time for us to just accept that we've got the internet we've got things like video that want to stream and it's up to people coders to figure out how to do that in the best way flash wasn't it so move on but I have no problem speaking terribly Oh symbian I don't know what you're talking about Chris's email address is Chris at the verge com if you want to talk to him about your thoughts on sybian oh man yeah uh I mean I guess we will see if it would be nice if there were a clear open standard to replace flash with html5 video that everybody sort of knew but i knows i feel like it's just gonna be a mess for a while and that's fine it's better better to have that I guess that flash um but you know I mean Adobe should be that company they said they were gonna be they were they made comments like they were going to help solve this problem but who knows if they're actually able to pull it off because adobe hasn't they're not exactly firing on all cylinders right now if if you know what I mean I know I mean and yeah um which we talked about so motorola Google's gonna lay off twenty percent of motorola's workforce which is Yankee more people has decided that it doesn't want all of Motorola cylinders yeah it's like you know you guys go we don't need you yeah and they're gonna kick out fewer phones to right right so so these are I was trying to figure this out earlier in the week are these Google's first publicly announced layoffs in the company's history ooh if if if they aren't it then then it's one of the very few I know that they've they've quietly pushed some people out of the door in the past but I don't know if this is ever really happen on this scale before um it's it's yeah I'm this game definitely and this is some 4,000 employees to being right by it right yes it's a big deal for these guys and I think you know I have mixed feelings about it as I think we all have mixed feelings about motorola I don't think that if Motorola had stayed an independent company they would have gone this route as drastically and as quickly as they have uh and and I think that Google is really anxious to push the non Android hardware out of its portfolio really that's what what it's all about right Motorola has a lot of low-end devices still that it sells in emerging markets Brazil and China and India where you know if they aren't android-based that that just isn't that doesn't play into Google's business model for motorola at all so it's getting rid of those right at the top one thing but that I heard yesterday that's kind of interesting at least to the the local economy since I'm chicago-based here is that they had specific incentives uh to I believe to move their headquarters to downtown Chicago it's right now they're they're actually based way out in a suburb but in order to qualify for those incentives they had to maintain local employment of at least 2500 this this round of layoffs pushes them below 2,500 so they actually are now disqualified for incentives that they had had before so I don't know what that means in terms of uh you know where their headquarters is going to ultimately be I think they're still moving downtown here but I see you know I've said for many months now and I still think this is true that in the long term it makes a ton of sense for them to be either co-located with Google or at least in the same neighborhood and they do have an office on the west coast but you know they've got most of what i heard is that most of their local employees in chicago our engineers those are the kinds of people that you want on the west coast so i wouldn't be surprised to see them about West sooner or later I would guess it would take a while before they move out west I think that at some point Mel annoy or even Chicago would be like well you know we really do want you to stay you'll see if we can change our tone on those incentives yeah yeah I mean I personally like the idea of there being innovative you know technology company not located in California I think that's you know that's good for the diversity of thought and what goes into smartphones and I'm now giving motorola praised for its diversity of thought which is a weird thing but nevertheless I'm doing it I don't know I mean I look at photon q I wonder just what's going on over there but i agree with detail does absolutely need to diversify the sources for our designs and our ideas for phones whether it be you know outside of the west coast of the United States or entirely outside of the United States it is good to have fresh ideas I mean one of the most innovative phones which never actually materialized if you guys remember it was the first else and that was thought up over in Israel and the innovation with it was that the whole you I was supposed to be done based so you only use one hand one thumb I know kinda like the UI grows around your fingers and your interaction with it which probably was like too ambitious a project and that's why I never materialized but you know it didn't come from a san francisco area it didn't come from the bay area so i agree i also go to Toluca Motorola and I need to mention this I got a droid razr maxx here because I wanted to see it good for motorola i want to see it for the first time and the first thing is this thing is a mess better inside it but i can't tell that it doesn't feel fat like I expects you to be smushed thicker than it actually is and I just unplugged it from charge at the moment we started the show so I love that you guys somewhere somehow the victory is not going to decrease during the course if if you actually see the battery go down while we're podcasting that means we've been podcasting way too long no no I was talking about the the podcast of the show I'm talking that in general like during the week because I also I've also given my slack we took vaca for a week so I'm not tweeting for a week just see that I can do it so I can't tweet when the battery runs out but maybe again I her on Google+ so I mean yeah really I don't mean any disrespect Vlad but that really isn't as ambitious of a project as Paul is undertaking hmm well what is Chris after well stop going up against the pyramids and a be less ambitious oh this is true this is true yeah the droid that my concern with the droid razr maxx i just tweeted this yesterday is that i don't know if they can repeat the feat of that device with a better display right because the the reason they were able to do that is because they took the razor chassis which is only 7.1 millimeters and the way I got down to 7.1 millimeters is by using a really crappy self-illuminating explain AMOLED and and just bumping it back up to the regular thickness of a regular like modern smartphone and then using all that rebet remaining capacity for battery I think it's what 3,000 milliamp hours or something so the question is good and a hundred yet yeah so the question is can they take that concept and put in a display that doesn't suck I don't know I mean that thing I don't last a month i mean the the razr maxx has got incredibly good battery life with LTE i mean if you're just running this thing just straight HSPA i mean i can't imagine what you could do to it to kill a batter you would you literally have to like put it in an oven and run a flash video before it goes away tomorrow constantly and maybe you could drain the battery will find that yeah find out but I mean look what I'm saying is is such a fat battery that you could easily have fat phone and feel justified in the phone being chunky like the sample is the PureView 808 which I've had plenty of recent experience with it feels about yeah twice the size of this like the Rays max kind of feels it just feels like a regular size but it is an extra super slim and skinny like the original Ray's oh yeah the new HTC and Samsung phones but I actually don't need it to be like it feels like it's a great size and there's no compromise but as chris says the nerves compromises emphasize is down to the amal to display now which is okay no it's actually doing a better motor oil itself because this is interesting to me um I mean just look at this particular phone which I don't know why I'm carrying on about it so much but nobody else has really tried to match that yeah we'll just go crazy with a battery thing Samsung has done I stuck a pretty big battery inside to get it here it's free but I just part of the whole package and sounds like an HTC like I've been complaining for a long time keep going for bigger and bigger displays and trying to crank out specs but all is doing something different so if the company is now going to focus on a few good phones uh maybe hopefully that diversity that dieter and I spoke about will help and then we'll see some hyuga phones that are actually different from the good phones that everybody else trying to build what do you guys think right yeah I would like to see something you know inspiring i mean i mean the the razor it's a cool design and I like the aesthetic of the hardware of course you know the software I don't know whatever but I mean it just it didn't catch my attention because I was more focused on the Galaxy Nexus and the innovation that was happening there and it you know took them forever to get ice cream sandwich on the razor and you know we've obviously seen samsung just dominate and we've seen HTC at least try to sort of reinvent itself but I'm interested to see if Motorola can I don't elucidate a similar vision for you know fewer phones and this is what Motorola is this is what it means to buy a motorola phone now because right now if you ask somebody what does it mean to buy a motorola phone they'll tell you what do they tell you they'll tell you it me it's a start tag or razor the original razor or the tell you that oh yeah that razr maxx has got ridiculously long battery life and those are cool you know features and that's you know there's people still know motorola but nobody thinks about motorola as like having a corporate identity as an android manufacturer I don't want to see if they can actually pull that off I want to pebble too that's all I want double to that the original pebble was amazing device then yeah the spring-loaded hinge the way that you opened it by like sliding it off the the magnet I think I've I've wax poetic about this phone three or four times in the past but it's worth doing again century since we're talking about motorola my question is you know we've heard google say on many occasions that they're going to run motorola at arm's length which i think is good for many reasons one is that there's less an appearance of you know favoritism among other android oems but then also it makes it easier for google to offload motor oil in the future if they want to which i wouldn't be surprised if he or two or three down the road that happened but by the same token you can kind of tell you definitely get the impression that google is not a fan of OEM skins and and they are probably not a fan of the fact that they're there really isn't anyone other than google doing anything with the stock android experience with the nexus series and we've heard these rumors about the wall street journal rumor about a series of nexus devices coming out later this year nexus found specifically so i'm wondering whether motorola is going to continue to develop a blur whatever it is that they're calling it these days or if they are i mean is that going to rub google the wrong way enough that they kind of steer motor oil in the direction of going stock the raisin nexus I'm just thinking of the name yeah that sounds uber my mother that's good i'm on a pond on record as what I could what did I commit to buying a hundred razors if they ship it with a stock Android is that that what I said this is like from up two months ago three months ago I I hope it happens but then you know I guess motorola becomes the company that ships stock Android that could be cool I could get on board with that actually I'm shadow just waiting for the next Nexus device I am sticking to death about not having a stock Android LTE device on AT&T I'm running cyanogenmod 9 i'm HTC One X developed by a guy over at XDA and it's running pretty well but it's still not quite you know fully stable so I'm gonna be seen by eating a Galaxy Nexus and oh oh oh you switch it back to the guys I'm gonna get back to that but let me just say that quote from you was just the perfect distillation of a first-world problem I'm sick to death of not having an AT&T LTE phone with such as such specs in such as such capabilities as the Android not having that is literally making me sick I am getting closer to death because this thing whatever I learn look okay europe europe and asia lead uh led the entire wireless industry for a solid 20 or even 30 years and now it's America's turn freedom prevails bald eagles flying over in fact Creighton Brennan if you guys can add some bald eagles behind me right now I'd appreciate that it sort of CGI thing maybe a flag maybe some fireworks it is our turn to to leave the world with LTE and I am reveling in it and I know deters as well and you know I'm just gonna go out and buy PS veto on behalf of the Euro Japanese tea just really good job sitting here because I really want to deal with it but I don't have my sunglasses nearby so the surging to make the point though theory switching back to a Galaxy Nexus Chris granted Oh weekend switching power Galaxy Nexus I mean you got this temporarily until I is temporary would both of you I know is temporary until the next next spy okay uh but seriously I'm the guy who wrote the piece against Chris's piece saying the guy's a nexus is the best and remote and then you guys I use in the guys next again I can't speak for themselves no listen Vlad but I'm just gonna put an end to this rampant and baseless speculation right now okay yes my sim is in a Galaxy Nexus everything yes but the only reason I did it is because like there is no good reason I just like yeah I'll switch phones sure cuz I to be at very honest I haven't played with 4.1 that much on the outside I played with a nexus 7 a lot but not 4.1 on a phone I only used it on the galaxy nexus for like 15 minutes before I put it back in the gs3 before so I wanted to give it like an honest and fair shake although AT&T HSPA in Chicago is just as bad as ever it's completely non-functional during weekdays so this isn't going to Stanford very long I I'm sure that by the end of this week I will be back into another device so the fact that we started a conversation on motorola and ended talking about the Galaxy Nexus is a perfect example of where companies right now we have I want to talk about this new mobile payments committee which I want to say sounds really ominous but maybe it's not so I've been complaining at length about the fact that mobile payments as fragmented and there's no unified ecosystem and you never know if you're gonna be able to use it and apparently all the big players listen to me to me specifically and in reaction to my specific complaints because I'm so influential and powerful in the industry they have formed the mobile payments committee which consists of Google Isis paypal verifone into it ATT Sprint t-mobile and Verizon beacon and I just drop a quote in here just very very high I believe I'm quoting correctly from civilization here and co is the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the growing needs of the bureaucracy that's how this fiercely let's have a committee to organize the organizational bodies but it is hey it's an laugh about it all you want but it is a very important step it is a step that was needed because it was starting to look like you know this was just going to devolve into a really consumer hostile fiefdom that served nobody's benefits or best interests Cuse me and and I have to say after using google the latest version of google wallet on the Galaxy Nexus the past couple days like it's starting to congealed starting to really come together and I want to see all of these carriers and Google and Apple I want to see all these guys get on the same page because this is something that has to happen yeah I mean uh the what was the takeaway at CTI forget what what that big you know article about fragmentation what we call but one of the one of the original headlines was you know mobile payments nobody's winning but we're all losing and it's all you know everybody was trying to win and that just meant that you had no way of knowing if you know your particular wallet would work and in theory anyway all these guys being out of committee together sure it's more bureaucracy and it's all star chamber and there's going to be back room deals and blah blah blah but you know what if the thing that gets kicked out of this is here's the standard you can have all these fragmented solutions but here's a baseline standard that they are all going to use so that you can trust that your wallet will work when you go to CVS or 7-eleven or Tiffany's or people shop that's good and I hope that that actually happens now the interesting thing about this crazy committee is that there's one company that's not on it that you would expect to be on it and that square aka the company that's actually doing the best job at mobile payments right now yeah I I wouldn't actually expect Square to be on that committee and just very briefly to come back to the the reason I was flippant with the point about your ma cracy was the es is a beautiful dream that they were organized themselves and have a cogent plan that applies to everybody but I kind of feel like we've seen this with a whole bunch of such loose voluntary organization swings like the open handset alliance me what does that stand for with Android like who who does what there how does that contribute to the overall landscape I don't think it does anything and I kind of feel like this is going to go the same way but also this committee that has now been gathered seems to be exclusively focused on enabling mobile payments via the mobile phone itself we're square is focused on its own service and also on its own appendage for a phone right so in order you need the square card reader in order to have you cards read out of things square has a master's square has square has geofencing where you walk in and the the cashiers got an ipad and they're like oh Vlad just walked in and you're like hey I'm glad like hey Vlad I would like this coffee and now here's your coffee and then you say thanks and you walk away and that's the whole transaction that you don't pull out your phone you don't swipe a card you don't tap an NFC thing they just they know who you are they have your picture pops up and you know because you walked into their geofence and then you ask for what you want to buy and they sell it to you and you're done okay so i had like completely missed this business model pivot from square i still remember the square card reader oh no they stopped it still exists it's still the most popular option in fact they recently I want to say like six months ago they they finally switched it to being encrypted it used to be that would just send the credit card data unencrypted but now it's encrypted so it'll only work with squares app which was the thing that paypal and Intuit were yelling at them about or saying or better at anyway so like but the thing about square is like you know you want to root for them you know Dorsey is that his name and you know little startup and is it an exciting story and that's great but that's not what gets you at the checkout register at you know Macy's but then got him in the checkout registered starbucks so maybe I'm which is a big thing just really big deal yeah well it looks a little my exception of square from the very beginning was like if you looked at their business model number one of the on the list of goals with Starbucks it was just obviously I think even the initial pitch was like here's how you pay for a cup of coffee it's like where do you go to bring that sort of functionality other than Starbucks which is outlets so far and wide and so many of them it's it's a huge coup for them but just to savage quickly my initial point about not expecting Square to be part of this committee chameleon organization again the even with geofencing that their business model is different you know that they're not trying to do mobile apps for phones in the same way that everybody else is kind of trying to do like Google Wallet well yeah but do they need to I mean you know they don't think I don't the argument that we've been making is that mobile payments in order to not suck need to be ubiquitous and is square on a path to be Vic with us like you know yeah ubiquitous games I gotta get in the dirty dirty mess of talking to these gigantic players they control the market Visa and MasterCard and you know any scene whoever else makes a checkout registers like that whole thing like square could disrupt it and they've done it a little bit with their their little dongle and you know direct payments on devices in yada yada yada but you know these other companies aren't gonna just go away and they're going to fight back and so I would like to c square go ahead and get its hands dirty and corrupt its ideals just a little bit to get us all on the path to you know a single ubiquitous solution that's you know maybe it's a meta solution but it's at least something that you know we know will work and like that's been my thing for you know since i started talk about mobile payments what's the little surprising to me is that starbucks i feel like starbucks is in the process of seating its own very advanced mobile payment system i mean they have one of the most successful mobile payment systems in the world already right i think there was some that came out earlier this week or last week that what 40 or 50 or 60 some ridiculous percentage of all transactions at starbucks currently in the united states are our our mobile based which is insane and i don't think there's any other major retailer that can claim that it be you know because they have their their Starbucks app that that is on iOS now right right and you just you know you link up whatever card to it and it displays that that 2d barcode and these they have those those 2d scanners in every Starbucks already so I mean it's really cool that the starbucks is being so proactive about this in advancing the cause but at the same time they were already there so I don't quite understand why they were the ones to step forward and support this on a really broad scale when they already had that capability and they've been pushing that capability for four years that's a really good point then III can't even come up with a good answer that situation I'm a surprise as d2 that's a high number but then we also have to consider that you know starbucks outlets aren't going to be you know park next to motel on the highway in Montana's on some place I their most style box are you know anybody urbanized central city areas where people already have smartphones and techies tend to hang out oh there's starbucks at Montana you'd be surprised start okay yeah yes should be um alright what's next so I'm or has got a rumor that the apples going to take pre-orders for the new iphone right away on the twelfth that they'll start internationally October fifth and they should be shipping I think relatively quickly pretty much right away since ever 21st is when people will be able to start buying a device I mean if we if we buy that you know they're gonna be announcing a product the 12th then you know Apple has always had pre-orders right away and ship right away right after so it's pretty much par for the course so I don't I don't really have any reason to doubt this I'm just I'm excited for an LTE iphone which is weird for me to say because i'm totally not inspired by iOS 6 but I'm excited to see what an iphone feels like was crazy fast LTE data yeah euro I've got bad news for you dieter your LTE is not going to be crazy fast because you and somewhere between 10 and 50 million other Americans are all going to be experiencing LTE on iOS for the first time or on an iphone for the first time I should say and these networks are gonna slow to a crawl I think that I talked about this a week or two ago maybe i did but i think i did that that uh that LTE in 18 TLT in chicago has already noticeably started slow down and I think that's the gs3 effect because I've seen GS threes everywhere since they launched and and I think that that's really started to have a negative pressure on an LTE speeds so the gs3 is doing that I can only imagine what the iPhones going to do you okay so is it time for me to give up on eighteen t is that it that like it's it's time for you it's time for you to give up on wireless uh everybody is moving back to corded phones and just stay on your cable modem don't leave your house that's all I can recommend you know it's long if I was in your shoes detail I would just switch t-mobile just cuz everybody else off switch t-mobile and support the little guy because that company is struggling and yes I am in the process of doing a really kick-ass great right now because T mama reported its quarterly results yadda yadda yadda and they tried to patch over things but they've lost half a million of their contract subscribers in in the last quarter or relative to the previous year I think which is you know I'm hugely worrying number like everybody else sprint cat was kind of able to hold on to subscribers AT&T and Verizon keep growing subscribers but the guys who are losing subscribers a team over and then losing hair the interesting thing about that I mean I'm not too surprised to see them lose postpaid subscribers but both t-mobile and Sprint are seeing huge grill in prepaid subscribers and you know there's this has sort of been floating around on the internet this idea that you know why are we all on these super expensive postpaid plans when prepaid pant plans are so much cheaper month to month for basically the exact same service and I'm getting to the point where like I don't have a good answer for that like at all like I you know right I by phone so often that the subsidies don't matter to me i'm basically subsidizing nothing except for att's profit margin at this point i mean the only reason for me to not move to a prepaid model is basically phone choice and phone selection and that's a prepaid with prepaid you just get at least on tmobile you just get a sim anyway or you can just get a sim if you want and then you do it right well what I want is for there to be an LTE option yeah yeah what's up by the way this isn't this isn't on the topic list but we should briefly mention it we are hearing rumors this actually came in through TmoNews but we've kind of been able to semi corroborated there's there's discussion of am a temp song s ght 899 for tmobile that appears to be able to phone 8 device with a 720p display and LTE oh yeah I see right yes this is the the phone that we rumored as the odyssey well not rumored it was in Samsung's court documents from the apple core case last month that which appears to be basically a gs3 chassis for for apollo which you know when you think about it is exactly what Apollo needs and uh and so so if t-mobile gets this device and it's one of their launch LTE devices that'll be a pretty compelling windows phone 8 argument but my guess since t-mobile's previously said that they won't have commercial LTE until 2013 my guess is that they'll launch it with LTE dormant and if it launches in 2012 at all we don't even know that much but if it launches this year you probably won't realistically be able to get into any real LTE service until next year that's too long the wait man I can't handle it you know I know I hear you um no but I mean so I mean volte I mean you know I have this this article about about sprint trying to be like the nice guy but it's in what's interesting with both of these guys is they're struggling but they make are managing to you know pick up some customers in the prepaid market but the prepay market just isn't as profitable as opposed paid market and so like I would be really interested to know like if you go into the boardroom of t-mobile and Sprint how they really feel about all these customers on these other plans that are cheaper for the customer but not making them as much money like a they're there right there at least offsetting their losses and postpaid customers but they're doing it with people that bring in less are boo we owe the tmail God has been rules all I don't know about sprint but the t-mobile has actively been trying to reduce subsidies for a long time I think that there's a perception at t-mobile that that really weighs on their bottom line having to subsidy havily subsidized hardware so they I mean of their I can think of several examples of hardware that they've launched in the past couple years that they've launched at a higher price point even on postpaid than AT&T and Verizon have and that's because they you know they they're not as willing to to put these giant subsidies on those devices so from that perspective you would think that moving to this subsidy free model even at the cost of monthly arpu would be exactly what they've been trying to do on some level at least extrema we end up in this this this they're doing this like this equipment installment plan which again like in principle I think it's a good idea where you still get a subsidy you still sign a contract but once you're done paying off the subsidy the 20 bucks a month extra then you just go back down to your regular cheaper plan like it's a great idea in principle but in practice it just sort of is like a another confusing mess I just wish that somebody verizon hi verizon would you know start listing the full unsubsidized price of phones even if you're paying the subsidized price like they should list next to every phone this is the full on subsidized price first and then this is the subsidized price if you're willing to sign it to your contract very sometime they do and and the thing is when they do that and they were convinced that us legitimate because Dale is things like six five nine nine spot man and a woman okay 659 dot 99 yeah and they kind of seem like inflated prices and and they seem like way too perfect prices when you consider that they bind off those phones in box from you know phone makers so I never really trust those prices when they say this is how much it used to be and this is how much you could be otherwise it cetera like that doesn't feel like the right price well hey they're not selling the phone at cost right there said even when they're selling it off contractor selling it with a with a profit margin yeah I mean that's right that's their their right as a retailer but i think what deters suggesting is that it would be nice to see the American carriers and we've said this countless times would be nice to see the American carries move to a slightly more European model where yeah it really is about it is about the the cost of the phone and then if you want a tariff that knocks some some of that you know that that reduces sting of that hardware costs then go ahead and sign up for it yeah now I totally agree totally agree I mean to me this this proceeding conversation is kind of absurd because I see exactly what you're talking about the European model Chris we're in the UK you have Amazon you have a bunch of importance guys like expenses hand tech home etc etc like this actually really well developed mini industry people importing bringing in phones and then competing on price each other is kind of absurd to the US bond market but it do compete on price just on the phone itself and Amazon because it doesn't pay any tax in the UK because tax dodging such and such really go in some dependency low prices and that creates great competition and then I mean then you could you have a choice then you could go prepaid you could have a contract but just get the sim card is supposed to bind the phone to the host subsidy dance which is diva says it gives people better output because the subsidy automatically includes it selects your cash for them like however much you subsidize because the phone is not perfect it was you know tack on a couple of extra dollars and that's how you increase the output so I mean my advice to anybody who's always buy the phone by itself by the dates and the contract by itself the perfectly separable things they don't need to go together now let's see that's a lie because you cannot go into eighteen t Verizon today on a postpaid plan and say give me the data and don't charge the extra that you would have charged me if I had bought a foam with the subsidy you can do that on t-mobile and you can do it on some of the prepaid stuff that are both NB knows on sprints and blah blah blah but if you go and go into ATT and pay for an android phone straight up you do not you still are paying the same amount per month that you would be paying if you had ATT subsidizing the phone by four hundred bucks over the course of two years so if you if you think I'd be switching phones a lot sure hey don't pay the subsidy but in the US on ATT and Verizon I think that you should go for the subsidy even though you're stuck in a contract and it sucks and blah blah blah at least you know that you're getting at four hundred bucks ah you know off the price of the phone and that gets spread out over the cost you to your contract you're actually paying more by buying a phone straight out if you're not getting a discount on your data and voice under contract by the way uh creighton just whispered into my ear he said I know what arpu is but for the benefit of of our listeners every week I know it well you know and he knows what I pro is we all know what arpu is but but we should say arpu is average revenue per user arp it's how much money the carrier's squeeze out of you every month and they all basically verizon i think at record ARPU the highest of any carrier 18t was very high springs very proud of theirs I don't know what t-mobile's was it probably wasn't great but they're all making a ton of money and I hate them I hate everybody well actually it is princess looping a ton of money is losing billions but that's because of because of extra financial engineering that goes on behind you see use with all of these corporations and the complexity in terms of as you say these are just selling stuff to people yeah they're making way too much money we should okay so I want to talk real quick about the the this federal port they're going to maybe reassess quote-unquote the how cellphone radiation gets measured and approved in in the US for compliance with the FCC and you know we've got this report from Adrian you know describing how the process looks now and that's fine and we can have an argument that is completely uninformed about which study is more likely to be correct or not correct about whether or not it causes cancer but what's crazy to me is these things are designed as though they assume you're carrying your phone and a holster and I guess like it's not recommended that you carry your phone in the pocket like so like the radiation stuff is set assuming the phone is on a holster on your belt not in your pocket and it seems like a really small difference in terms of its proximity to your body but it's enough to make me go uh I'm not going to start carrying on my ulcer because that's crazy this is but I mean let's be real this is only a problem if if if you have any desire to have children whatsoever which you know that's fair enough yeah which I don't right I mean maybe they do who wants to reproduce yeah yeah no I haven't seen a normal human being put their phone in a holster in a very very long time I mean there's Dwight on the office use as a whole but other than that I it's not really a common sight it's more I think it's more a common sight these days for someone who's using a blackberry or an ID n device that's essentially if you want to see a phone in a holster go to a Microsoft Store and you'll see those Lumia 900 in like I phone holsters I foam other cases are you serious yeah so what do you think is doing Matthew perizaad Oh on a Twitter he was he was tweeting about it the other day too like we both seen it that's pretty amazing yeah she's away i'm going to i wait I'm sorry but I have to interrupt before I forget there is a very important tumblr that everyone should check out that I just found out about myself today I called celebrity Windows Phone sightings that tumblr com uh where you'll see some crazing real-life celebrities why you see I'm the construction still awaiting building materials you didn't know about celebrity Windows Phone sightings tumblr com no I had no idea but you're dancing I know I had no idea is the most amazing thing me about this site is that they're like tons of b and c and d listers uh and ii Lister's like myself uh and and all of the B&C Lister's are using glossy white nokia lumia 900 sometimes with the matching monster headphones and my suspicion is that nokia like blanketed the entire B&C list community with these devices at some point earlier this year and then you know they all felt compelled to take instagrams of themselves you know using these phones it's great that's really wonderful I hope know if he does it again for their Apollo launches memories Photoshop this um this cyan Lumia 900 in your hand there chris but it's not not a very good photoshop it wasn't me that's all i can tell you that it definitely was not me yeah i mean before we get stuff from first anyway he is quite proud of his windows phone usage so i gotta think christmas who hide from that fact but quick correction there is absolutely never a justification to say there's a really important tumblr that everybody needs over like that census you can just you know slide it away file it away is now going to use that again honey my only question was do think that there is somebody who used to work for HTC when they design the nexus one who has moved to the US government's testing facility because this is the same kind of thing remember when okay wait is it's a it's a dubious connection but it's that stick it a phone and a host that not put in at newpark remember what a nexus one has some screen issues with people popping it in a pocket and HTC's first reaction was tantamount or what's the goose I don't know but the first reaction was sent about saying well you're not supposed to put the phone in your pocket and everyone was like what I don't remember this at all are you guys serious the next one crazy it was very good past few years people okay was the next one it had some screen issues with scratching on the screen and oh okay outside okay well I'm sure that some of our listeners / viewers uh oh that's me about scratching okay I do vaguely remember this yes yeah according to HTC's technical support they don't go in pockets let's the screen gets cracked I think they were referring two back pockets like you're not supposed to sit on the damn things right which I think expenses will happen to people sitting on them that things are kind of get axed shattering effect sir also i read that there are a lot of people that there are probably a lot of people who just throw their phone in a pocket with like keys and coins and stuff which i mean it doesn't matter what kind of material you know space-age materials the phone is made out of you still should be doing that so that's one conceivable explanation speaking of phones and holsters rim says that it is totally ready to license blackberry 10 so somebody should lanes it yeah they have the a now they need to be you know yeah I mean we'll see no you won't know I mean who man oh no we we don't need to go into room anymore that's dead I mean we also had the rumor that like IBM was like poking around at their Enterprise Services Unit and maybe wanted to buy it came out of Bloomberg like my sensen like it's been this from the beginning since these rumors started is like the board has like drank the kool-aid they fully want to see what happens they fully think that like they're gonna launch blackberry 10 and then something's gonna happen i know of course you don't think they're even going to get that far but i think they're gonna get that far and it's gonna be it's gonna be like it'll be out of the market for a month and then the board will be like yeah it didn't work let's sell the company i think that you you could very well be right they could end up in a touchpad kind of situation where these phones hit the market for a very short period of time and then there's a you know a bait-and-switch kind of thing and the company goes away or you know they they break it up and sell it piecemeal or who knows they're there are many many different scenarios none of them that i can see and well for rim and you know i'm not a professional analyst and I don't have an MBA and I don't have a PhD in economics so I don't want to make any diehard predictions on what's going to happen with this company but I just you know you look at every possible scenario I don't know how or where they can succeed and I'm sure you know to a to sort of backup this IBM thing that went around I'm sure that there is a lot of value in what rim has done and continues to do in that space they have a lot of expertise in enterprise security and infrastructure and they they can tie into all these different services and they're good supporting devices from an IT perspective and that business undoubtedly has a lot of value but as far as blackberry 10 specifically goes there starting from scratch there's also the the UNIX business which has a lot of value to their in a lot of cars there are a lot of other kinds of embedded systems so they there is value in the company that's waiting to be unlocked but I don't see how you know I think that the end game for rim is probably going to be that they they break up pieces of the company that are worth a lot of money and sell them off and whatever's left just withers on the vine that's that's dire I know but I it's I mean we've we've been through too much a that you know the the downfall of the symbian foundation broke my heart I'll never be able to get over that and since then I've just been a jaded son of a gun I don't know well you know blackberry 10 like the playbook probably well no I'm fact I'm sure well we'll run cute apps based on the the QT application framework cute that nokia has just sold off to what is it digia de guia yeah digia and so like the core application it it's this framework because actually like was pretty good for cross-platform stuff and I suppose still is it was you know for developing on symbian and then on Miko I know that cute apps were running on webos they've got it running on the play book so it seems like it's a relatively flexible application framework but you know if they'll they'll get it running for android iOS Windows 8 they say but I mean I think it's like I'm not a cute fanboy because I don't know that much about it but it's always been like an interesting thing it's always seemed like it was the closest to actually being cross platform app development before html5 and still probably better performance than some html5 stuff and I'm a little bit sad to see Nokia drop it but I'm not at all surprised but maybe doesn't really going to do anything with it yeah right he was part of its former strategy the one that revolved around the various symbian me go combinations that nokia was going to hopefully try and develop and create so it makes sense to set it up and then nokia initially sort of her beliefs and licensing rights to this year which is another finished company so at least at least cute is sticking around in Finland even if Nokia's manufacturing facilities aren't zing and anyway the other thing really to be said about this is that he's paying four million euros to complete this deal which tells you everything you need to know Nokia's cutting ties with his former strategy for operations I mean Stephen Elop has already cut quite a few jobs so which presumably you know touch on this cute development team so you know the price of four million euros in corporate terms I mean to you to you and I it's a lot of money but in corporate terms it is like well here is a little loose change it's like he's village enemy as well just open sourced it and giving it away you know that I sort of got my you know a little bit of a goodwill but I mean yeah I think it's a little bit like I think it's a little bit like dig I think that there's a lot more to the story than the five hundred thousand dollars that was paid for dig I think there's more to the story than the four million euro that did you play a paid for cute because I mean if nothing else there's the ongoing expense of paying the the the engineers that are moving to digia I mean that you know there's there's a whole thing it's not just up front four million euro oh yeah no no that's a good point i mean nokia could be saving a lot of money I in redundancy payments if you decided ok world person was in this we shutting down development he might have had to pay off a whole bunch of these engineers whereas did you might be picking that up a great example of a similar thing is over here in the UK with soccer clubs a few of them have had debt problems and you know a club will be taken over for the price of a pound like a single pound coin but then the guy who takes over the club takes on the cost of like a hundred million two hundred million pounds worth debts so didja might will be taking on some of that extra toxic baggage on nokia's behalf and you know improving Nokia's bottom line at the end because seriously this formula euros if we took an apple profits it's like a rounding error yeah it's not kind of it blood you want to talk just really I mean it's not strictly like smartphone related but this this piece that you wrote about the the surface and how it sort of might affect nokia it's just a piece and I just wanted to at least tell people to go read it but maybe you want to say something well yes briefly uh to try and get people not to chop my head off for it like I'm not trying to attack anybody with this it was it was more a rumination on the situation rather than anything else in all so I readily admit this kind of late analysis to Microsoft Surface enhancement like Microsoft on ourselves back in June I'm writing this this week but it just kind of doin to me he was surprising and but part of the reason why I came back to nokia is because somebody emailed me asking do you have any news about like a tablet and then I was like wait hang on a second we haven't heard anything about this um and the thing for me with surface is first of all Microsoft in terms of publicity it was massive success just getting people hyped up interested in the product etc it was Britt was a brilliant success and now it is it when you say windows 8 and you say what is the characteristic device for this platform its surface and Microsoft is not shying away from that because it recently had held a party to celebrate windows 8 going gold be released to manufacturing and at that party it made a massive massive cake and it has surface tablets with the keyboards attached at the top of the cake I mean actually the table was a cake that would have really big discussion about this crazy Microsoft cake table was a cake and then the surface on top there was like three or four parts which were all cake it's matt is nuts salata cam is what it is right but the thing is how does that impact nokia and some of the comments oh my piece were like well you're overrating the importance of this nokia tablet to luckys future because nokia has never been in tablet snuck it's about folks I don't think I am like we would all my love respect to our readers I think the ablett part of Nokia strategy is gonna be as huge as smartphone part of a stretch go forward what do you guys think am I crazy I think no no God speak tell you you didn't you go I was just going to say yes I think that Nokia in another world where Microsoft didn't create the surface definitely should have jumped into Windows RT tablet and could have had a pretty decent level of success with it since we don't live in that world then I if I were nokia i would scuttle plans for tablets as quickly as possible i would yeah i put them in the same building as all those cute developers were you know just like oh yeah sure you know you guys work on some other future stuff we'll get to it later because I just I don't see how even if they make something amazing like you said like it's what's the point the people don't act be able to compete with Microsoft on on that space I kind of agree with you but but I also feel like their expense in developing a Windows RT tablet has the potential to be pretty minimal because it's it it really is essentially a scaled-up phone the the software is written for them they have their their design language which is still very attractive largely because you know it the their phone their phones that use this design language pretty low volume at this point so it's still a kind of a novel thing that won't be true forever once they have a lot of success that's no longer going to be a very interesting ID but at this point it is so if they made a scaled-up Lumia 900 that was a Windows RT tablet I I think that that they would be able to do something with that they could sit for one thing this is a very important point Microsoft correct me if I'm wrong maybe I'm completely crazy on this but I don't think Microsoft has said anything about availability of lte windows I receive me surfaces is that right that's true that's totally right they want to be in Wi-Fi huh right so so what so maybe Nokia's angle can be okay we are going to work directly with the carrier is we're going to do bundles by this Lumia nine ten or whatever they call their Apollo device and and get this uh this great LTE Windows RT tablet that looks exactly like your your Lumia if or some discount I don't know no seriously I mean I find these suggestion crazy that knock it would just cuddle plans for tablet I do feel like the company is already really heavily invested in developing this tablet like I don't think Nokia would do a tablet without like blowing it out and just doing something really impressive and in that respect to do you feel like doc is very much kind of like Apple and so where those guys don't enter a new product category without having something to blow people away you know and just recapture the hype and this is the thing Nokia's first tablet is a momentous product completely separate of its specs and it looks as operating system and whatever it's like iconic brand iconic company entering a new market segment let's see what happens let's see what they do you know they have such a great history of design but then like Microsoft completely just took the wind out of that sale because Microsoft did the really nicely designed Windows RT tablet it did the really nice little innovation which the touch cover and the type cover and all these other tweaks and the integrated the you know kickstand which is like put the design so it's like wait my hands like what is left for nokia to do to blow people away how do you do windows RT tablet that is so secure to surface that it makes people not think about it I don't know I think you can do that right now well I think their only option they're only smart option if they're going to continue with the tablet strategy is to search for a demographic search for kinds of customers that aren't completely or appropriately served with the surface running RT or or pro and I don't know I'm not you know I'm not enough of an expert to know if those demographics exist but if they do that what you know I I find hard to believe that that those two products are the be-all end-all solution to the quote unquote Windows tablet there have to be other ways that that market can be addressed well I will say this the the surface we don't know what the distribution is going to be on it so nokia is going to can get in every carrier store and no k can get in every best buy and everywhere else we don't know if microsoft is going to be doing more than just a microsoft store and online you know these are might not be everywhere they're certainly not gonna be inside carrier stores and so I could see an argument for an Okie tablet from that perspective but from the perspective of like the ecosystem needs nokia to swoop in and save Windows RT talents we're making something that is incredibly compelling hardware I just don't see a huge need for it oh those of you will have the ATT LT that you crave data that cannot live without so there's your in the feature yeah Chris do you speaking of how do i put the speaking of controversial arguments you want to talk about the reserve tank because i think you pretty much lost your mind I think that Ivy this is this is a solution like this is this is just insane I've gotten that exact reaction countless times over the past few days I was actually really surprised that I don't think a single person said oh that's a pretty cool idea everyone's just like it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard you've lost so much give us give us the the a 10 second issue of what you're suggesting so here's the basic idea uh in in the motorcycle world it is very common for there to be this this thing on the somewhere on the engine that is essentially a velvet switches between two gas tank intakes there's a normal and a reserve and they're they're both again they're both going into the same tank but the reserve can access a little bit of extra fuel at the bottom of the tank and the idea is that you have that emergency stash of gas that can't be accessed normally so when that when the when the tank goes quote unquote dry and the engine putters to a stop you have just enough gas to get to a gas station or get your destination by switching over to the reserve and then you you go on and this has been a thing in motorcycles for all of time it's just it's been there for four decades and so I thought why couldn't you would adapt that to phones because i keep there are countless occasions where i don't properly manage the battery life that I have available to me on my device it's not that I couldn't it's that I don't either I over browse I'm checking my email too often I'm sending too many picture messages something stupid is happening and by four or five p.m. the phone is dead how many ex your messages you're you're like you're just yeah messing it up you're all like I have sweet man I totally love sprint picturemail I am gonna just live stream with my life like with little 320 x 320 images that I'm gonna send a my friends look look man mms is the future ok mark my words ah ok go ahead sorry the basic idea is this i want a force shut off of the device before the battery is actually dead so that when that shut off occurs i can do something to the phone that gives me access to that last remaining you know 25 30 35 40 minutes of battery life just enough to make one last call or navigate to my destination or you know get to a charger and my initial thinking and this is what I posited in the piece was that the way to do that would be a physical switch underneath the battery cover that you actually probably battery cover off to get to so there was really like you know it was a a you know a come-to-jesus moment when your battery ran out like you had to do something to the phone to actually switch the battery over to reserve but but with the comments that I got on the piece it got me to thinking about how you could actually do this in software and I think the solution would be this and that there might even be a way to do this with like locale or one of those other situationally aware apps right now I don't haven't looked into it but one option would be for you know when you get down to say 10 or five percent real life the phone just shuts off and then you know you pull the phone out of your pocket so that way it's kind of a self-preservation thing right that the phone shuts itself off early so that you have enough battery life when you when you switch the phone back on so you turn the phone back on at this point you get a dire warning message on the phone that says hey doofus here your battery is just about dead you need to do something about it but you still have a few minutes do those last few things they need to do so maybe you could handle it that way I still like the physical switch but I think I'm literally the only human on the planet that thinks that's a good idea well I'm Smart Actions does this on a recent Motorola devices there's a like a low battery mode i'm pretty sure that the galaxy s3 has a low battery thing where like it alerts you hey you're down to ten percent we are turning off unnecessary services like oh yeah there's a battery saver mode yeah yeah like how is that not a better solution because you're barely favors I'll tell you exactly why because the battery saver mode I've used the battery saver mode on the gs3 first of all I'm not convinced that it does anything I think it might just be psychosomatic it seems to drain at the exact same rate but but that more importantly regardless even if it is saving uh saving power drain it's still draining power I want to I want it to stop draining power period when I get down to a certain threshold so that by the time I recognized by the time I pull the phone on my pocket and see what's happening I had that guaranteed last remaining five or seven or ten percent of the battery look this is very very simple the problem here is that Chris's apply and his petrol head mind to mobile problems and the solutions that are coming out just way too mechanical that that's just the basic simplicity of adding Chris let's face it you're also watch enthusiasts and your favorite watches a really intricate ones a fellow watch enthusiasts get really giddy and excited about things that are actually called complications like a good thing in a watch is a complication so yeah it's coming from that sort of world Christmas yeah a reserve that makes but of course look look guys hey once you try a phone with the reserve switch and I can be able to go back well Chris I'm not even joking your reserve tank in a phone is exactly like these really luxurious really highly designed watches that have I mean a spectacular sophisticated and and you know brilliantly designs movements that represent time in the most obscure way like you need to look at it like it's Japanese and interpret that thing and like one thing is twisting around and another thing is rolling around and the other one is sneaking through and you got the minutes in the seconds and so kind of weird and freaky and whatever and it always takes you like seven seconds to figure out the time uh that is your reserve tank which you know what I think there's room for that like so what you're doing he is there is going to end of that over to here to tell me that this gonna go to because that's designed to be like a watch I mean ideal no I insert and it will be amazing if you're selling virtual phones wouldn't that be kind of a nutty thing to be selling to people like okay we've got a battery you can replace it you can swap it but if everything is desperation stage and you really just need to use the phone for emergencies we've got a special battery this is an extra one so you're gonna have to battery out and the phone will still work because the vertu and it's you know etc etc that's got marketing potential right there it does it does yeah and if they actually do it um we're going to see because we just came up with my the entire pinch for we're suing everybody all the time and I see where you're going with this this is definitely a Segway isn't it Otis the same way is to discussing the you ate the same way Alice steps we do not have time oh we're not going to get into it but the the apple vs samsung trial we do have insanely complete coverage brian bishop is there on the ground every day Matt and Neil I are doing analysis with him there's a huge stream of everything that's happening at the trial and if you're not subscribed to the official verge cast feed they are doing a weekly breakout podcast specifically for this trial Neela and Matt and Brian to talk about all the insanity that is happening there and so if you're at all interested in any of this hit the stream and listen to that podcast and I mean there's just so much stuff that's happened I don't even know if there's like one thing I could pull out for us to talk about that you just say read the bush there it is go there's beef it um will be there you do that and it things would happen yeah and that I think is going to wrap up our mobile show for the week if if you want to follow us we're at merge on twitter i'm at backlog curses NZ power vladas at blatts a bob we've got an email address it's the whole show at the verge calm and next week we'll be here so you should be too thanks for listening okay thanks you