Gadgetory

so in college finals week you'd have to write all these papers and you'd stay up all night studying and go to take tests and it was the worst and you'd spend all this time working for what you're supposed to do for your job but really what you really just wanted to do is party because you're almost done well this week is basically finals week in the mobile tech news world and instead of actually working we're gonna party and that party will be the Virgin Mobile show so stay tuned for the verge bolts show I'm dieter Baumann I'm Vlad settle i'm dan seifert i'm chris sigler and it is episode 22 for the week of october twenty seconds 2012 and yeah we're midway through this insanity I think the infinity is just beginning I I think we're very much in the thick of it okay so we're not midway through we're like it's were at the beginning of the beginning the beginning of the year all the end of the beginning we're all going to be bloody corpses by the time this thing is over and then I really don't know is going to host this program uh we'll find like a squirrel or something I could host a bureau that we good yeah we can find Pataki if we can find a talking a squirrel I really don't think that putting them on the Virgin Mobile show is the best use of his time I think that we should you know go around the the world showing off this amazing creature and make millions and millions and millions of dollars just think there's a better way to use that kind of novelty and then we can keep Nokia float yes yes that is the the cure for all of nokia's troubles train a squirrel to talk put them on a tour and profit becky no wasn't there not a bad there's so much there's so much insane new this week to talk about this topic list is huge I'm gonna go ahead and take Vlad's a lead here and let's just start talking about nokia at the outset because what the heck um the lumia 510 has launched um yep I'm trying very much to care about the lumia 510 can someone convince me that I ought to I'm sure it'll be French in certain markets I'm not sure it'll be super relevant to us in the West but where it's launching it's very important because it's got a very important price point and it kind of what nokia has been very successful with its Asha line in india and asia and markets in the east so the fact that it's centered putting in a really entry-level windows phone is kind of a smart move yes me write the questions just like go ahead right yeah just thinking I was going to mention first of all dan is completely right because Jim before we started the podcast today tisa was talking about having a galaxy note 2 an optimus G on 18 th sprint and I a galaxy s2 length mike is swinging hired for dieter and he was complaining about the fact that he does have a good enough android device and he's just stuck and doesn't have a good choice so yes I don't think the lumia 510 is going to have a massive effect on that kind of an audience but to try and also do this point about why we should care the whole reason lucky is still kind of creeping creeping along and not completely sinking it's actually symbian it is a windows phone yet nokia is still selling more symbian devices the windows phones which is kind of amazing reported yeah yeah your imported his latest financial figures Lumia sales of AXA shrunken and we should be surprised because of the osborne effect where Nokia microsoft announced you're not gonna get upgrade to Windows Phone 8 or Windows Phone 8 is gonna be so hot it's just wait so that was predictable enough and the future is going to be more interesting but again is down was saying the azure line and the silver line are the things that have been setting for nokia so going with lumia 510 dragging down the entry price point for Windows Phone app into windows phone 7.8 it's probably a good play for the company yeah what would you say like the Nokia picture Oh would you say that the picture of Nokia's financials is going to be much clearer once they launched the 920 it is a pretty dark time for nokia right now yeah I mean to me and maybe I'm being overly dramatic here everything as far as the company's long-term survival goes it needs to win with the 920 and potentially with the 820 which also looks like a really solid phone like if those don't work out I don't see anything within like 6-9 months a year when okay could again say okay here's the big reboot here's the big new flagship like those are the flagship devices that need to work right now Chris you're gonna jump in before I interrupted with my terrible joke I was just I was just wondering what what Symbian devices nokia still sells i mean they can't possibly be making money off the 808 who's going to 80 well exactly right i think it's the Asha phones yeah Astra phones are definitely keeping it the company afloat but there are no asha Symbian phones no they're all s40 so I'm wondering what these Symbian devices are but that doesn't think Chris I think this is the case where we're really lacking in our coverage of the Indian subcontinent because if we had somebody based in india in singapore and those markets I mean you eat you know rim launch one of its BlackBerry's not too long ago and it was like Singapore is our fullest market is such a huge market for us and those are the places where these phones are selling the other thing is they're a riot when that blackberry was launched like I think they were here at a few of the store and like thousands of people rioted it's crazy um yeah and exam BlackBerry's one of BlackBerry's executives in the region was arrested over that incident and I can't remember what happened to him I don't know if he got sent to prison or what story was but he was blamed for inciting the riot wow I love eel ops quote from the the call having spent most of the quarter explaining to the US population about the great innovations that are coming in q4 one could reasonably expect that would impact sales in q3 that's like an underhanded like swipe at consumers not not even underhanded it's just a straight-up swipe yeah that was that was the whole beginning of the sentence Chris we spent a whole quarter explaining to you people why this fig matters this is how long it took us free moms okay so I'm looking right now at nokia's list of symbian devices that they currently sell they sell the c5 03 the c7 which was discontinued on tmobile like two years ago the e7 which is the basically the the na with a qwerty keyboard it was the one that it was the last phone that uh that s sorry not at sorry uh that an SI van yogi uh like pimped before he left nokia yep um and and i remember very very well i was at that nokia world and he was all so fired up over this phone he's like I camera damn you were you there was no you know I was not okay get know you he was like he was like insane at this over the phone he's like you know oh and I'm gonna have to go back and watch the the keynote again cuz he was just he was insane he was like on cocaine or something um so so then they still sell that Nate they sell the 700 and they sell the 808 that's the extent of their symbian range right now by the way you can pick up an NH for just three 3999 unlocked which is not I mean if you can get that Simeon it's actually not that bad of a deal considering the camera that you're getting and the construction it's a very very well-built phone but there is the symbian issue also you can get a a c5 dash 034 just 129 99 unlocked I don't know what I am William straight devolved into Chris scanning amazon for what Nokia phones are available unlocked no I nokia's site I'm actually looking at nokia a calm right now then all these prices match on amazon for what it's worth 3 30 and 70 to meet viene okay the Lumia 920 needs to be a flagship phone for nokia it needs to do really well to help turn the company around my question is you know in the US will it be able to do that or do they need to depend on sales internationally I mean we know that 18 tease got exclusivity for the 920 and there's a rumor that it's going to be six months of exclusivity and then best buy is pricing it I want to say it 149 is what we saw Tom it's correct it and I mean you know it's not like the 900 was you know att's singular massive focus I don't expect that it will be the 920 will be their singular focus for the holiday season they're going to be pushing a lot of stuff we know the iphone does really well on AT&T so I guess I'm just wondering it seems to me like you know Nokia's gonna get a little bit of a foothold in the US market but it doesn't seem to me like they should be assuming that the US market is gonna lead the charge for whatever come back they're going to get that what they really need to do is kill it in Europe and you know they need to be here in the US but I don't think that it is there depending on AT&T to turn them around with a 920 I think that's not going to happen well yeah but at the same time I kind of I kind of feel like Nokia's extra strategy is unlike the strategy that we want not get to pursue and what I mean by that is that we want nokia to go for all the marbles try and seize real market share asserts itself be bold audacious etc whereas what Stephen Elop seems to be doing is be very focused on the bottom line so he's got an exclusive or 18 which obviously earns donkey a bunch of money the reason nokia work with microsoft windows phone instead of android does have something to do with the fact that Nokia gets a billion dollars from Microsoft every single year right and also Nokia just recently issued new bonds which is basically just financial instruments it's dead yeah so it's taken on new debt for 2017 to the tune of another 1 billion dollars in order to solidify its liquidity s financial position so really and truly I think what Nokia is actually trying to do is lock in some gains in terms of just pure money just in terms of pure cash flow before its launch happens like that doesn't really Express much confidence in the final product it has to be said but you know as a CEO as a CEO of a company that's losing and hemorrhaging money and which actually has a lot more employees than it needs right because like I still need to trim its wage bill and its facilities which is doing but it still needs to keep shrinking because it basically was a massive massive company built to sell massive massive phones and it doesn't do that anymore and the two things need to be realigned so like the cold harsh reality is that Nokia is just going for the shura thing discover these exclusives and at the same show in the UK has exclusive with e 4g carrier for the 928 yeah just the 920 I don't think it has it for the a 20 I which again is a limited term exclusive but it's not going to end every single carrier which is kind of unusual now it's been a couple of years since we had a true flagship phone exclusive to a single carrier I think the question here though is glad you mentioned going with the carrier exclusives as a safe thing how safe really is it though for nokia with the 900 on ATT we could see that it definitely didn't pay off what was what was the total sales of the 980 on AT&T was it 600,000 or something in that ballpark so I would assume that the 920 would sell more I think it's a more higher profile products it's obviously much more competitive than the 900 plus but at the same time eighteen t is a carrier that sells like more than seventy five percent of its smartphones or iPhones so I don't know if that's really the safest that that Nokia could have made yeah I'm just saying it's kind of a more of a short-term strategy and what I'm saying a safe bet I'm saying take 18 tease money because ATT is going to pony up the exclusive money up front presumably right so you know even if the product flops ATT is paid up the exclusive money ee has paid up the exclusive money and again a like I say this doesn't really seem like no keys all that confident its own product which is kind of weird because the 920 is still the most exciting thing at least for me when it comes to the new windows phone 8 Rangers yeah so okay we're gonna get the official unveil windows 18 on the twenty-ninth um and we'll finally like get to play with the phone with the lock screen turned off um I honestly I want to believe that they've got something crazy and amazing up their sleeve but as much as I want to believe that I pretty much don't think that's the case does anybody think that Microsoft has got something shocking and like game-changing that they're gonna be showing us with with Windows Phone 8 oh yeah yeah forever ooh I hope so for their benefit I hope so um I don't know what their ace in the hole is at this point because you can't sell you know the developer focused capabilities of Windows Phone 8 that Microsoft was selling back at their their event earlier this year really can't translate into something that consumers can or want to understand I mean you can say things like multi-core and you know there's been enough marketing push for four terms like that you know consumers generally know that bigger numbers are usually better or at least that's what they've been trained to believe so you can say things like that but but otherwise they need a they need a lot of whiz-bang I think to really get this thing to say I mean they've already tried the trick of blowing out these phones and surprisingly low prices and that hasn't worked for it with the Lumia 900 debuted 9999 contract right so and that didn't work very well it was the I was 99 99 then it was very quickly free when it didn't work right and Nokia had to scramble right so I think it's going to be a tough sell to say to consumers this here's a phone that looks almost exactly like the Lumia 900 we were selling six months ago but it's fifty dollars more and it looks generally the st. like the software looks generally the same here are these two new features and by the way it has to course now like that's a that's a really tough sell night and I don't know if they're gonna be able to pull it off not only well as far as Apple pulls it off with the iphone yeah but that that's Apple lives in its in it own world and it has the luxury of playing by its own rules and that is luxury that Nokia nor any other company in the world hacked and to follow up the the difficulties that Nokia will have to selling this it will be the 920 on AT&T will be there sitting right next to an HTC 8x four fifty dollars less that arguably extremely similar runs the same software is you know I ID probably just as quick we haven't really tested them to be honest with you so we don't know that for a hundred percent sure but it's you know a thinner lighter version of the 920 in most people's eyes so they've got a lot of challenges ahead as far as getting that message to the consumers as the why they should buy this I mean look this is the thing that I was complaining about what is it now is going to be two months ago while two months ago like stem effect when Nokia had this big blur event for the Lumia 920 at night 20 it was where's the release date what is this thing happening I want one now because that was the time when everything was novel and everything was fresh and this is the thing you know I've been kind of banging on about when Apple does an event it's either ships today pre-order today or pre-order within a couple of days a week style apple doesn't waste time I mean look Apple whole secrecy thing is just gone completely to crap this year we do pretty much everything about the iphone 5 we learn three much everything about the ipad mini I mean everybody pretty much called it an ipad mini event even though I've recorded a special event again but that tradition that I / has of here's our announcement here's when we reach out to mass-market here's when you know the big news corporation's like the BBC for example was covering this on radio on television the apple event that just happened this week this is when we reach out to the mainstream and then immediately after you can go and get now Nokia's big opportunity big chance to do that same thing was a tempest and I think they had a really good presentation I think but the whole thing of being able to sell the 920 is a form that you can use with gloves is nice I mean honestly that's like a it's a major feature in particularly we make fun of it but people in Nordic countries people in Finland people in diversity in January yes I've been in New York City in January you guys are nuts right but the point is that happened nearly two months ago and now Nokia essentially has to reheat that exact same message and and that's the issue that is facing took it about total 29 it is you given people the sales pitch and I have to redo it well enter the Chris's point they've given people the sales pitch they have to redo it but the sales pitch isn't all that different from what the sales pitch was for the 900 right it's not it's not it's not a rapidly different message well yeah I think that also depends like we can say or Windows Phone 8 like we need to be windows phone 8 a chance we need to find out exactly what it is because microsoft itself has been keeping a really tight lock on it and then find out how it compares I mean personally my anticipation of it is that i'm just way too much of an android like abusive way to any habits around android around the negative G Jim application you to your application cetera and that's the thing I was mentioned before the podcast it was funny that previously Windows Phone were saying it's lacking because doesn't have a proper YouTube application its email client isn't as good as the native gmail client on Android it doesn't have google maps and now those exact same things were actually the same place we can have about iOS there's a very important difference though there's a very important difference which is that google offers its own YouTube application for iOS and the webview of gmail on iOS works extremely well in fact its my primary email client when i'm using an iphone and and there's something yeah and and that's something that that Windows Phone does not have to this day if you if you navigate to I think I mentioned this before on the show if you navigate to gmail on a Windows Phone you get the web view which is designed for like a flip phone from 2003 it's it's embarrassing and I think I think it's a combination of I mean I'm sure it just has to do with like ie9 having like quirks or ie8 excuse me in 75 having quirks that that Google just doesn't like there's not enough scale you know for Google to bother dealing with that maybe ie9 in Windows Phone 8 will be different I don't know we haven't tried yet so my fingers are crossed if if they if they have a functional gmail web view in Windows Phone 8 that could be a game changer for me personally because that was honestly when I was using Lumia when I was trying to use a Lumia 900 full time that was the only thing that was really stopping me was the lack of any acceptable gmail experience I can make it work on iOS it kind of sucks but I can do it on windows phone is just a non-starter right now I'm trying really hard not to complain about my iphone right now but now I brought it up i'm going to save if you follow me on twitter you may have seen that my iphone 5 has randomly and inexplicably started uh just uploading or downloading or doing something with massive amounts of data I've chug through six gigs of data in the past two weeks don't know why don't know what happened don't know which app it is I you know I started looking at the console stuff but it's really hard to like figure it out after the fact um I'm really unhappy i'm deeply unhappy AT&T has been great you know I called him up I talked to him they're gonna give me a call when my bill comes in to talk about dealing with it um and they are still swearing up and down it's not suffering from this bug that the verizon version suffered from but i've seen reports for you TT seeing it and like Rogers and a few other carriers get it too so it's either the podcast app or like might be like Dropbox going crazy or it's just a huge iOS 6 bug but I'm good pretty unhappy could it be i clawed back ups could be icon backups well I'll say I use iCloud backups and I haven't seen this bug myself yeah the way those days they showed us like I'm sorry blood drop box they did a phone 5 compatibility update and some photo size stuff so the drugs application for us got updated recently but I don't think it's been two weeks ago so probably isn't it yeah no I think it might actually been Dropbox which is a voice recording application um that was trying to upload some crazy stuff up but I don't know like I genuinely have no idea I thought that was just a vocal typo that you did there um ya series of the above troubleshooting dietz's iphone I I do I should want to switch us over to the Android segment of October 29 because Google get through an events happening then as well and I'm actually kind of scratching my head because I physically scratched my head for no good reason it wasn't eating buddy I'm scratching my head about exactly what Google's gonna do because we've anticipated multiple Nexus devices for a while which put next to smartphones but then there's kind of cool down that rumor hasn't it again do we expect gonna do yeah we haven't heard that rumor I don't think we've heard that rumor since the original was it Wall Street Journal rumor months and months ago but you know there's been a lot of bubbling of you know other Nexus devices whether they be tablets we're various sized tablets so maybe that's what that will morph into instead of it being a multitude of Nexus phones Google presents you know a big tablet of the revised Nexus 7 or something well we know a 32 gigabyte Nexus 7 is coming that's pretty much all been confirmed at this point yeah maybe one with connectivity built in cellular connectivity and then obviously this LG nexus 4 that we've seen up and down for the past few weeks I want a new Nexus Q that's what I was yes can't forget about nexus q you know to what what happened to that thing it's just gone right well no not gone it's sitting right there on my desk if you bought one google paid you for it and you got it for free and Google was like we're gonna try again but we're not gonna tell you when or whatever yeah we just know this is not working right agria manufacturing I don't know well yeah I mean that might be part of I mean it was it was a very noble experiment on their part but there were so many complaints about the price to capability ratio of that device that's that I mean that's gonna be if manufacturers continue to try the American or you know just Western experiment for manufacturing this is gonna be this is gonna keep coming up for many many years to come I love that you start the podcast by going through and listing off symbian phones from Nokia and now when we're trying to talk about Google's event you're trolling us by talking bringing up the Nexus Q like you just it's like everybody knows Chris just wants a dog on a podcast entirely that's all of our listeners know that I am only here to derail what you guys are trying to talk about that is my function like everybody has a function everybody has a role on this show my role is to interrupt you and make you talk about something that nobody cares about so anyways so you know the 29th in our little mobile world is probably going to be the most insane day of all the insanity that we're dealing with for this past week because as we were just saying we've got the Google's event is happening in the morning on the East Coast in New York and then later on in the afternoon on the west coast Microsoft's doing its big windows phone event so and then on the end in London yes how can I forget of course and I might go to that you say let me of course the lid why would then you know we might we might actually see this is complete I'm confirmed that i'm just guessing here but we might actually see the samsung achieve s final oh my god what Alex the ultimate paper yeah the ultimate product Brenda yes uh you know one thing I don't think they're gonna dress but I want to address it here is a jelly bean updates for existing phones we've had just a raft of bad news Sony's not updating anything from 2011 they're not going to get their jelly bean updates until next year motorola listed the phones that aren't getting jelly bean a confirm which ones but they also offered 100 dollar update samsung did confirm that 4.1 is coming to the galaxy s3 in the US but not until the quote coming months I just I we talk about this all the time but I just don't I'm tired of like being outraged at this point I just whatever I'm just gonna use a Galaxy Nexus yeah I'm kind of out of outrage too although I feel like Motorola has set an important precedent with this like reimbursement thing and Sonia should seriously consider doing the same because if i'm not mistaken correct me if i'm wrong i think sony was part of that ridiculous meaningless update pact that google announced at a thai o in 2011 and they just completely ignored that or it you know have reneged on that so they owe it to themselves and they owe it to their customers and their future customers to show that they are going to support these guys in some way and it continues to baffle me I mean this is like one of the very fundamental differences right now between Android and iOS is that when you buy an iphone you have a very very safe assurance that you are going to be supported with software updates for a minimum of three years which is well beyond the end of your contract that is not something you don't have an assurance that you gonna be supported in three months with an android device much less three years unless you've got a droid biotic then they're bringing four point out of the droid bionic well I want to talk about Sony for one more second yeah so this really surprised me with Sony because Sony was one of the most aggressive manufacturers with getting ICS onto its older phones that we're already on the market it released beta after beta that users could go download and install if they unlock their phones and then you know it put out ICS on you know virtually its whole line of experience that were available and now for it to be like well we're not going to do anything beyond that is a little bit surprising for the 2011 phones of course yeah nobody else yeah yeah no is it surprising and disappointing I mean uh what surprises me is you know I was had the impression that jelly bean you know shouldn't have been that hard of an update but apparently maybe it's something you know with with project butter apparently it's more difficult for manufacturers to implement them than I anticipated but also I was just thinking about this if somebody like Samsung saying you're gonna get jelly bean but you might be next year oh you know well I'm sure LG's promising jelly bean in like 20 60 that also kind of deflates the expectation at least for me I was seeing an android 4.2 another you know upgrade to the OS and also yeah I don't know if I agree with that Vlad because when android 4.1 was announced there was less than like five percent of android phones on even android 4.2 at the time so I I don't know if Google is using that as a way to slow down its development of Android in the least yeah okay I'm not sure but it just kind of seems like like one of the excuses if you like from my perspective for not loading up jellybean is to say well android 4.2 is going to hit in a few days time let's just go ahead and jump straight to that 4.1 what's the difference will we integrate it with 4.2 but any people if companies are promising you'll get it at such and such time way up into the future then it just kind of seems less likely um at the same time you know this is kind of a predictable thing with Android and a sad thing really because the Suffolk of us would be thinking about my favorite android phone seems to be changing every other week yeah and that there is a good thing if you're actually spending your money on these phones if you feel you know messing around and reviewing them and getting a new one every two weeks Oh Andrew is the best andrew is just like oh yes oh here's a new one that limits it let me tell you about the curvature of this phone and nobody who's actually spending money I cares that much about the curvature of the phone as I do but that's just because I see a bunch of phones and I like to play with it but as a fireable phone you just can't have a set of situation like either you have to track everything like an eagle and be like okay now finally this phone and this OS they're a match and that you'll probably get the update like Peter says that most like to get Nexus device anyway um and it's just kind of rubbish way to treat phone buyers to be able to speak because everything kind of just keeps getting upgraded in a very incremental way in a sort of way but still a desirable way like for example right now my favorite android phone is the optimus G boom oh gee diese might not necessarily agree with that but that seems to keep happening you know it's the latest phone has a nice aspects actually as far as oh geez concern I think that's the best android smart phone companies done by far I think know is the best smart Jesus is incredible it's it's one of my favorite smartphones i love the screen i love i love almost everything about it it's just that i'm an AT&T man and ATT did a number on the software on it and i'm not a big fan of the the skin on it but I mean to your point the you know just how consumer hostile the upgrade situation is did we talked about last week the the motorola quote that we got from when they were when we got the the razr HD stuff that they they are you know going to try and do the right thing and get as close to base Android as they can I can't remember yeah I think to a code the quote was like stock Android is a nice house Yannick go to have but we're not gonna do it basically yeah that and it's basically like it's cuz carriers have you know they push the blame on verizon yeah you wrote this piece yeah II didn't spit in specifically named verizon but I mean you know it is what it is and and so I get some the reason i bring at motorola is what i want to start talking about the the razr HD but to like I'm sorry you're owned by Google now and I know it takes a while to get your products out of the pipeline that you had already been developing and blah blah blah but remember when you know before this had gone through i have this i claim that if they you know just were to announce on day one after the purchase that if they just released stock android for all their phones that i would buy like a million razors i think i said it by a hundred razors or something luckily for me and my bank account that didn't happen but if there's any company that should solve this problem of you know Android manufacturers offering steady updates outside of the nexus program it should be motorola and even they're not doing it yeah it's a it's an incredibly disappointing especially in the case of motorola because of the close access that it does have regardless of how much Google likes to talk about how Motorola's being run as a separate company and so forth the truth is that google and motorola motorola has a closest access to Google's resources and you know that's borne out in the software that ends up on its phones the version of Android 4.2 on all of its phones is the closest thing to stock Android that you can get from any of the major manufacturers but it still hasn't translated into Android 4.1 being on all of its phones as we would expect to be at this point yeah and Chris wrote the the piece of from there their earnings call that we've inherited an entire product pipeline where harbors and cycles are typically 12 to 18 months so like we keep wondering ones Motorola gonna be act like you know a new motorola the google owns and apparently it's like next year or a live right after next year right III think that you know when they bought Motorola they inherited a stack of contracts that had already been signed with verizon and there's nothing they can do to get out of those contracts other than grid ethan and push forward and once they get past that maybe we'll see google's start to exert its influence a little bit more because I mean bear in mind i mean the the nexus program exists for a reason right and that's because google wants an outlet for its own vision of what android is supposed to be and if they you know if they don't take advantage of their of their ownership they don't ultimately take advantage of their ownership of Motorola to push that agenda that I don't know what they're doing well we kill me about these contracts as they don't they couldn't change him like you know they did the contracts for this 12 to 18 months not only included you know phone design but also you know all the software that went on it and whether or not Google's allowed to offer updates in a timely fashion like its walkers sorry I was gonna raise is that the original reasoning for Google's acquisition of Motorola was motorola spada portfolio i think GU has been talking up the fact that it takes a defensive position defensive stance whereby requires payton so that it doesn't get sued and doesn't get to poke down into these you know protracted multinational clashes the way the Apple and Samsung do at the moment anyone's support the Android ecosystem etc etc we've we've had that conversation already we've heard that narrative and a google was like well it's not gonna cause a couple more billion to acquire ha motorola we might as well and since then to be trying to keep operating them at arm's length which find whatever but again i kind of feel like you could explain those things to investors and maybe you can explain them at the corporate level but to the consumer they just weird you know because because the conversation that teenagers are gonna have when they discuss these things it are things like okay I don't know if teenagers as you can okay but you know I I say teenagers today these crazy kids because their cell phones because when you I mean look think back to the decades ago when all of us with teenagers as well right things are a bit simpler and in a simpler world the case of matter is google's motorola that means google build android phones and what we're seeing is derivative relatives of motorola's older hardware designs and you guys could talk more about that with a razor HD uh derivative designs and still we're seeing skins and still racine carrée interference and nothing is changing nothing is improving I mean that isn't really impacting on the actual sales because Andrew just keeps growing but I don't I well I mean these me Mel rollers not selling a whole lot of phones uh motor shuts on verizon yeah well yeah but motor oil is still losing money for Google each quarter to so well let's let's talk about the razr HD and the HD max uh you reviewed him right there I did review them yes uh yeah so you know i think i gave the HD at 7.6 i gave the max to 7.8 the nod for the extended crazy battery life that it gets and you know it's it's like the they're very similar to the razor's that we saw last year the big difference being that it's got a bigger screen with a higher resolution of this now 720p screen at 4.7 inches as opposed to the 4.3 inch qhd screen that it was before but it's not a perfect display it's got the same issues that we've seen on every Motorola display it's pentile it's extremely oversaturated so it's a it's actually quite harsh to look at so it just definitely does not look like a top of the class their top top of the line display in this kind of a price class at this this phone is sitting in especially when you put it next to like a 1x it's just no competition and then you know I said this in my review the if you're looking at the razr HD which translates to the successor of the razor from last year the razor when it was released last year was like wow that's then that's incredibly thin that's like a razor that's what a razor smartphone should be and motorola and verizon really played up on how thin it was but then this year the razr HD is actually thicker than the last year's model and it's not like thinner than any phone on the market it's it's thicker than most phones that have come out recently so it's like totally lost its allure for me as being like a crazy thin device and you know then it kind of just makes it like another humdrum Motorola device that you know it the styling of it is kind of you know take it or leave it I guess it depends on on your preference personally I don't think it's very attractive but you know others might feel different and and it just makes me kind of disappointed and the whole whole thing as a whole and then the other thing here is like if you're going to go for the razr HD why not go for the razr HD max in my review I know that the max gets a very good battery life kind of as we expected and you know you are buying into that for the battery life because you're not getting the best display you're not getting the best camera you're not getting the fastest processor you're not getting the best build quality really what the by there is it's for the battery life so you might as well go all the way up to the max so yeah a quick question but DZ usually going to be talking about the razor so I'd rather we carry on with that just let me ask my question later okay I'm doing it up I like the the razr maxx the razr HD mac does it RAZR MAXX HD arrays are your HD max its razor razor mash d which drives me nuts because i think it's yeah the other way but i like it despite myself III think that the idea of like screw everything I'm going to have a phone that lasts forever is actually pretty compelling I like this skin a lot because it's so lightweight they added that little quick setting things on the left they did get rid of the cool little pop-up which is which i guess is fine I'm gonna disagree really close to stock I'm gonna disagree with you there about the settings page because the settings feeling like it is actually the least usable quick settings page that you can have because you can't access it from within an app like the way LG does it and the way Samsung does it by putting it in the notification bar allows you to access it from wherever app you're in you can like swipe down click your bluetooth on or click your Wi-Fi on or off or whatever it might be but with motor oil you have to go back to the home screen and then swipe over to access it so it's really you know you might as well just access the settings button from the notification menu it does it does I mean you've got you could the widgets oider notification toggle whatever but yeah you're right there but I mean and other than that I mean you know if the skin isn't too bad and you know it uses the on-screen buttons and whatever else so like yeah the cameras not the possibles too awesome and I know that a lot of people think the screen is where I think it's way over saturated um but if I were on verizon and buying a phone tomorrow um I would probably go for the razor matchick maxx HD uh-huh is that easy Emily else over the galaxy s3 if you were you know because i mean the the galaxy of 3 is a better camera um I think the screens whatever but i mean the the battery thing is super compelling to me i am you know i am i would love to like think about pleasuring my phone every day and a half uh you know I think needle treat plug my phone in the way I treat plugging in my tablet like oh yeah I guess I should charge it whatever like that would be nice instead of oh my god oh my god am I gonna make it to today how'd it out that's when our GT I would just buy you a duck for the galaxy s or stuck in a second battery since you can swap it in the galaxy s3 and you can't on the laser okay that's fair they just all right gonna take a pic thinking about buying blackberrys so we know that my judgment is not to be trusted when it comes to purchasing phones dude I'm gonna be interesting those BlackBerry 10 devices like rim is completely missing out on this holiday season weirdest new devices and is betting the entire house on what I was happening in in the beginning next year so I'm gonna be very interested like we've been bashing blackberry for a long time but I would be very interested to see what comes out of it because I also think much like Nokia now with 920 there are no more walls for him to have his back up against you know it's in this company has back up against the wall really needs to make a success out of this we said that badly 800 said about the Lumia 900 but I really feel like Nokia is facing that with the Lumia 920 now I definitely feel the same way about rim but it's new BlackBerry's next year but I think she I did this question that I have is for Chris providing he's still alive and is briefing a quick one do we actually have any examples of companies going through just a massive tumultuous period what are their being taken over by another company whether just completely switching brown strategy the way to knock is done with symbian to Windows Phone and I'm also thinking of HP taken over palm and things like that where that massive change as I should turned out for the good because I don't seem to recall any such examples Apple okay do you wanna expand well I mean Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy multiple times over the course of its history in the 80s and 90s then of course they they brought in Steve Jobs and what was it 98 I think 99 somewhere in there and you know they switched their focus to consumer products and of course the ipod very famously in the imac that you remember the original Bondi blue iMac which i was in college at the time and every single dorm room in college had at least one bonnie blue imac and i think the rest is history I don't need to explain where Apple is now so Apple would be I think that the most obvious example of that but you're right i mean there there aren't terrible I mean I i think that the you know what nokia and rim are going through right now are somewhat unprecedented and it becomes more and more difficult by the day for us or for financial analyst look at what they're going through and say you know there is a viable way for these companies to come out of this unscathed than in one piece um we'll have to see you know you can't you can't make that call until it actually happens but i don't know you know it I can't that I personally very much like the 920 in a limited time that I've had with it and I I'm always optimistic when new version of Windows Phone is announced and I very much like that the tweaks that they've made I love the new home screen but I selling that message to the average consumer like I said before when you're going from 99 99 for the Lumia 900 up to 149 99 is and as Dan pointed out that the Lumia 900 very quickly fell to free that is just not a message that they're going to be able to convey very effectively especially when you have this it's what 12 points something millimeters thick sitting right next to a seven-point whatever millimeter thick iphone 5 4 199 it's it's a very very tough sell yeah i mean the reason i was asking this is what was to related to google's motorola take over just because it kinda seems to be tracking on the same way with HP and palm where it was oh where we need to integrate we need to integrate we're big companies etc etc and then the monsters kept passing and passing you didn't see anything truly innovative I mean if we recalled palm still kind of bringing devices to still very much look I mean the palm pre was palm pre 2 rather look almost identical to the palm pre if I recall it directly but a shining ray of hope and light is actually the novel's take over the thing about brand yeah we which puts my mind so that that actually worked out more or less well somehow i'm not sure glad that the comparison of HP and palm to google and motorola is is quite apt just because HP and palmer and such very separate in different businesses when when each people at them I know HP had its little smart phone line but it was really HP had no presence in the mobile space and it really didn't know what to do with palm and that became apparent very very obviously apparent but where Google and Motorola is like you know they're both you know companies in the mobile space they have you know what would one would assume to have very similar interests as far as you know getting their product out there in the hands of people so for for Google to not quickly take advantage of the fact that it's got a massive phone manufacturer and device manufacturer at its disposal it's like we mentioned before a little a little bit mind-boggling especially to a consumer speaking of companies on the brink we got a look at the HTC j butterfly Oh Jersey oh my god i want to say this uh i am not a fan of five inch phones i've said this before but this thing looks absolutely amazing and I really really really really really want to play with one its own I mean the macro shot of the screen compared to the iphone 5 like bra you could die like tesc so text text so sharp it will cut you yeah well what's the PPI on this like 440 is that it's that's you know that's it that's a our friend Paul Miller pixel density enthusiasts like absolute dream I well I want to say a 5-inch phone would be he's absolutely nothing but I got mean that kind of what excellent entity is uh but yes three yeses it's great it's crazy just treated like a tablet yeah it's it I don't is 8,000 milliamp battery gonna be enough though that's using the s4 pro so that's definitely gonna be easier on the processor around the battery life it's a pretty powerful processor uh but I do I would worry a little bit about that yeah I think there's a lot of things to worry about there's a lot of unknowns here it's like you mentioned the battery is a big deal except that's actually kind of small relatively at this point which is insane to think but especially for something that has such a large display with such a high pixel density and resolution to be pushing around all day long yeah and then we've got rumors that it's coming to verizon we've seen it as the dl x and then also today i entered central had a leak that had it showing as i believe that the droid DNA which I I'm motherhood DLX if that's not the deluxe I much prefer this just might be called a droid I mean that's what I much prefer I much prefer that it not have tried branding no I'm ready I'm with you been but it would also kind of make sense because if you record last year HTC had one of the very first 720p phones with the resound by the way the first in fact yeah and now it's kind of shaping up roughly around the same time frame to release one of the very first 1080p phones sea monster okay i get i will say that if it does if they do go to the droid branding maybe that's a good thing for HTC at least because then verizon will put some real marketing behind it which we know that historically they have been press re i'm just paging through Sam Jeff's photos of the HTC j butterfly right now anyway traditionally verizon has not put a ton of marketing help behind HTC stuff so that I guess is a good sign um yeah I mean this thing is going to be a giant phone but if the battery life is you know good and the screen in person is anywhere near to you know what it looks like in these photos and what we've described in our post then I'm gonna be really excited for this phone and and we can be pretty a pretty confident that it will not have this software that we saw on the j butterfly which is very much of a japan i think was a kddi yeah that's that's very much their custom software which is like the the rhyme from last year if you know you remember that so so that will very likely not be on it when it does make its way into the US and we'll be looking at sense 4.1 or four plus or whatever HTC is calling it at the time witness arise so this is just a couple of quick points here first of all we also got a reports out of Korea to say that Samsung and LG and pantech are all planning to do 1080p smart phones themselves next year I mean energy is already showing up a 5-inch 1080p pounds so that's no surprise there so this HTC is going to have competition is just going to be next year but the second point is I'm really curious to know what happens if you just chop down this 1080p panel make it a 720p one all sort of screen size you get I mean it kinda seems like probably gonna be like four point six inches again so gonna be decimal but it was so awesome to have a 720p panel at four point four inches I really high quality one well and also if so it would actually be if you chop this down to 720p it would actually be smaller than that because the the resound as you mentioned before is a 4.3 inch 720p display and if I remember correctly they had about a 30 346 ppi all right yeah so you would actually might actually be in the range of four inches or even like 3.8 3.7 3.8 I'm sure if our chat wants to do some really rough quick calculations for us but you know that would be utterly amazing if you just kind of cut the screen down and then put it in a 3.7 inch phone when 7 is actually gonna be useful uh but i'll set up for really weird resolution in the middle yeah you know and at around 4.1 4.2 inches i will settle for that that was it but seriously though if it kind of bugs me that I mean maybe it's just mass manufacturing reasons but do these 1080p panels that have been produced in their overkill and five inches or we go again other than you know people with really small hands using there was just a proper tablet so just something a little bit smaller a little bit scaled down with the same pixel density that is gonna be a real 60 none of these 1080p was hot I'm just gonna say I think our chat someone in our chat is saying that 445 PPI would be on a three point three inch display someone in our chat also would like to point out that dan seifert likes his calculations rough yes I like them rough in forty shades of a quick right there actually Wow uh it's defy how do you pronounce this defies gravity I don't know uh I've nothing else to say about the j butterfly other than I can't wait to see it in the US we should talk about sprint though before we wrap the show um so okay they have gone back and acquired a majority stake and clearwire again how many times are we gonna write the story where Sprint is or is not investing in clearwire are putting it at arm's length or taking it back into the fold or dumping clearwire stock or acquiring clearwire stock it seems like every six months they do something different with clearwire and I know that things are different now because of softbank is so there how much cash and they're trying to you know go back to something now that they're in more of a position of strength in terms of you know casual and I guess uh but like just decide guys acquire them or don't I'm tired of this like I do we like their wire don't we like their why do we need them or don't we it's it's exhausting I think I'm sure Chris can speak much more intelligently to this than I can but I think sprint actually and Softbank to that matter actually has zero interest in Clearwire's a company and it's just using as a pollen to access the spectrum that clearwire owns the licensing too yeah I think that that move was driven entirely by the softbank deal and that's something that's move that they wouldn't have made had that deal not gone through and that you know that was probably just a situation worse off shopping was like you know we want to acquire you on the condition that you up your up your stake in clear where to be a majority the the fact that they they say I mean sprint already had a majority right like the fact they sold down just enough to not have a majority it was kind of weird in the first place because they lost all those voting rights if for a little bit of money it was weird so I yeah this makes a lot of sense to me it's like them and they were living paycheck to paycheck basically right and then they found their sugar daddy yep in this issue in jeopardy we should we should mention that we did um a profile bank CEO whose name I'm gonna struggle to pronounce now masayoshi son Wow very good nicely done that was excellent I I spent many many hours editing that piece so I'm well acquainted with masayoshi matsuyoshi son at this point yeah he seems like a really interesting character like if you haven't read this report you totally should because like it's all these things we're like oh wow there's like he's like I don't know like a cross between Bill Gates and osa Branson no I don't know what I want to say it's like I don't know it would be really cool to like see him start talking about sprint in the US and um bring a you know be like the opposite of dan hesse in terms of like being like a you know person that isn't totally laid-back and show all the time well he's yep resume dan has in terms hi yeah in physical size that reminded me of the Butte Bill O'Reilly debates against Jon Stewart uh pick up Horry I never realized the difference in height between those two dudes as well and sprint also has now hit a 30 markets with LTE which I have yet to see it in anywhere I've been there in Chicago Wichita Massachusetts I'm every bit serious in Kansas it's clear that we need to be clear that it's not in Chicago proper or Chicago metro rights it's some kind of suburbs so I I don't even think Chris could access the elt network here where he is if I had a device that was even capable of it I used one once upon a time I had a Sprint Galaxy Nexus review unit which I might need get back but but other than that I I do not yeah didn't you use that Nexus review unit to drive out to like Kankakee uh and yes see if the LTE network was alive at that point and you had yes I was I was so stoked that I was gonna be I was like okay I have this key advantage over every other tech reporter in the world and that I live in Chicago not New York or San Francisco and I'm like you know it's it's driveable for me right so hop in my car in the middle of the night drive out to the the middle of nowhere and and try to get service I drove that entire freaking town I spent like four or five hours driving every street there and was never able I I kept rebooting the Galaxy Nexus never got a thing so I don't know if that was just a bunk rumor or what happened but wait it would like it came from Wall Street Journal so there was some basis in truth to that but it's just you know might have just been that the engineers had the network turned off at that point because it wasn't official is a I wouldn't even call the soft launch I think they were just turning the signals on and off you know to test it internally and they you know they didn't intend for actual consumers to be using it so yeah that was that was a bust but i did i did still manage to squeeze a report out of it even though my test was a complete bust i'm very proud of that now that your efforts were not totally in vain right so well I should do the rap ah for Thanksgiving so if if I can I will go and test more sprint LTE what I'm there it'll be fun uh yeah that's right we should wrap up we owe you i just wanted to raise a couple quickies do it if i can uh first of all this morning at t-mobile put up the galaxy note 2 to be able to buy in the US now 369 99 on contract and my report from this morning was that pretty much every one of my us colleagues as soon as they came on and so that were like what i believe is exactly what i says is that when i dropped i jumped in our chat at like seven in the morning and I'm like what are they thinking so first thing out of my mouth it's it's not something the thing is AT&T has the same phone for three hundred dollars in contract and sprinkle as well so it was Prince verizon is gonna get it and probably have the same price I'm not perfectly sure about it antique my larger size you know we're special so which are just say seventy dollars extra and this is after a mail-in rebate so that's adding insult to injury so you have to you have to pony up more is it more than four hundred dollars in the story seems like it's 420 you have to pony up over four hundred and twenty dollars in the store on contract for the note 2 now it should be noted that this is not any different than what t-mobile did with the galaxy s3 the galaxy s3 on t-mobile is more expensive as well first whatever reason that might be oh really yes yeah it's either t30 or seventy dollars more I can't remember exactly t-mobile is very hour verse 2 there they're trying very very hard to get away from the subsidy model and this is something that this isn't just like a rumor this is like they regularly talk about this as a business priority for them and but I would argue that the way to get away from the subsidy model is not to charge people three hundred seventy dollars on contract there there there are other ways to approach that like you know just just go ahead and charge them full MSRP and not have them be on a contract because that's that's kind of a pathetic subsidy agree yeah if anybody's awareness for you I was just saying if you haven't read it you should go read lads review of the the galaxy note 2 i I've been playing with tmobile aversion and like you know we put up a little update to the review but the update is essentially a t-mobile's version is just like the international version but there's also Wi-Fi calling if you want a big tablet and you want to spend a ridiculous amount of money at the outset it's really good I mean wow that's a super fine that's a great point about a tablet you can get the new ipad mini 4 less you can get the galaxy note 2 on tmobile video to your contract well to be fair the the price of that ipad mini does not include cellular connectivity right right okay but then even if you do check on the LTE option you're looking at something like 400 something dollars again without the contract right and it's a bigger tablet and it again and it runs on LTE whereas the galaxy note 2 and t-mobile will not right yeah so there's no it's over it's the verge bubble show we have to end on a down note and so if you want to follow us on Twitter you really should i'm at back lon vladas i have lots of courses at z power dams at DC seifert with an e I in the middle of it we are all at verge and we'll be back next week which day who knows we'll have to check the Mayan calendar and see if we can figure it out thanks for watching everybody