Gadgetory

hey greetings mobile accomplished errs welcome to the verge so we've been having technical difficulties but we're on we're live it's very exciting it is the week of May twentieth 2013 we've been gone for a couple of weeks but we're here or some of us are here and others are here as well let's go through who those people are I am dieter bohn i'm chris sigler and i'm sean hollister welcome to the Virgin Mobile show sean hollister is this your first time on the original show this is my first time on the Virgin Mobile show well also my second time using a google hangout well we're excited to have you here we so Dan is traveling back from the beautiful and glorious city known as Las Vegas where he attended ctia Chris Ziegler is still there and because we are a day late and a little bit later than we usually start Vlad savov is sleeping hopefully so this is our lineup for today and you should be grateful or not but you really should be because not only do you have these handsome men in front of you you have just a ridiculous amount of news it's been a crazy couple of weeks that's actually part of the reason we didn't have a mobile store last week is I was busy at ctia or no I was busy at Google i/o um and did that had not come through the microphone I didn't hear a head knock no no we also have bandwidth issues today accra Ziegler his frame has frozen and he out there he just woke up now your frame froze with your eyes like half blinked and so think you are like just like on drugs and zoning out and then it popped into life with your head shaking up like oh I'm here I'm here let's imagine no gone again no so well Google Hangouts has a bug where it just doesn't start and it also has a more exciting bug where it can't handle low bandwidth and so then if you turn it on to low bandwidth settings which chris sigler is going to do right now your video goes like plaid it goes into this insane mode where it only shows the outlines of you and it looks like a ridiculous like k'nex demo yeah so we're tired we're cranky we're going to talk about two weeks worth of news it's going to be amazing there's there's Chris looking like evil ghost I don't even know if I can handle this Chris maybe we should just we should just all oh ok that's all how's this how's this yeah they're fine that's great love it that's we you need to get a profile picture for yourself so we're not just looking at a generic head when you're speaking no that's me it's actually me that's what you look like you're just yeah blue I see no facial hair on that head though a good point ok so we've got a ridiculous amount of news we're not going to get to all of it we're probably going to end up punting some of it to next week but there's some stuff we absolutely need to talk about and I think the first thing to do is to talk about the stuff that wasn't news that was handed to us at the giant events or a trade show but rather the news that was solely the result of chris sigler literally pounding the pavement his fists are bloody and he has an amazing story about what's going on at HTC so give us the the breakdown of what's going on here uh well the bottom line is that HTC well for a few quarters now they've they've had a lot of revenue issue for that who is just dominating Android right now and HTC really does have anywhere else to turn the windows phone still isn't penetrating the way they needed to penetrate but so this the story that we got kind of has two main parts the first is this ongoing narrative of people leaving the company most notably a coogi Coderre who was their chief product officer so he kind of like was in charge of this entire product portfolio including the one and he left last week we found out and then we also heard this kind of soap opera ish tale of the first and but it it sounds like what happened was uh HTC an eighteen t had originally had to understanding that Facebook home which is Facebook's home screen replacement there they're uh they're downloadable home screen launcher for android devices that they believe that home was going to be launched in the google play store on a significant delay from the launch of the of the first so in other words if you wanted the face become experienced the first would have been the only place to get it and that's that's what HTC in it that that was the belief that HTC and ATT were operating against and then at some point very close to the launch of this device facebook said oh actually we're just going to go go ahead and launch facebook home immediately uh which kind of you know I stole the the rug out from under the first and took away its entire value proposition and of course we've heard a lot of rumors in past couple weeks of the first being just a complete flop practice dropped from $99 1099 signs within a couple weeks of launch and and at least one of our sources said that the the phone has been nothing short of a disaster so that's not a good look for the company so yeah they've had better days yeah so the the I mean we've got the this chief product officer leaving we've got Jason Gordon leaving I forget his title Eric land we've said a bunch of people leave the company uh within the PS like like you I think he said like three odd months and that's that's about right and there was just like there's just a bunch of people just gone and a lot of them from HTC America and you know I don't know if we can blame it on the one but I think we can blame it on I don't know maybe the grind leading up to the one maybe some mismanagement they're one of the most interesting thing to me was that there were some complaints about CEO Peter Chou about how he you know heard that there might be some manufacturing problems and he basically said damn the torpedoes full speed ahead of releasing this thing and you did actually have problems with manufacturing and getting getting enough of them made for the initial launch period you know that short window they had before the the galaxy s4 got released um I'm as curious though I mean we like the first we like the one we think they're great phones right the best part yeah absolutely ziff supply is their worst issue I mean that doesn't seem like a reason to lose all well then supply isn't their worst issue though I mean you know that marketing is obviously still a huge problem for them fighting Samsung in every way that Samsung competes an Android is you know a herculean if not entirely impossible task for anyone else just because of Samsung's raw manufacturing capability the fact that they can you know in how source practically every component goes into the phone something the HTC can't do so one of my sources III didn't use this quote in the piece but he pointed out he said something to the effect of you know by the time the one rolls off the assembly line HTC is already lost because uh you know that they're there bill materials is so much higher than Samsung's or you know that their costs are so much higher than Samsung's because they're not able to insource this stuff that makes it a lot more difficult before they even put a phone on a shelf I mean HTC needs to they need to make a better phone and they mostly succeeded at that at least in terms of like overall impressions they need to have a better marketing campaign with more impact they need to have better relationships with carriers so that they're the carriers are willing to throw support behind the phone and they need to like make a profit and on every single one of those fronts like they are behind the eight ball and Samsung has huge advantages and you know HTC is doing its best in the areas that it actually can control but it just might be too much for them how terrible is it to be in HTC's position behind Samsung aren't they still one of the major players on the Android side well yes they are but like how much does that get you these days i think i saw you know some report yesterday or today that it was you just look at the profits in android samsung gets like ninety-five percent I can't source it I maybe I'm making this number maybe I dreamt it I often dream about analytic reports the smartphone market I actually believed you which is scary ya know it's true I do um so and the the the stuff about the Facebook like deciding at the last minute they're gonna release it on google play and like sorry HTC like that's crazy and it sucks for HTC but if I mean if I'm in Facebook's shoes I don't know if I do the exact same thing I don't know if I'm more upfront about wanting to release it sooner or what but it makes sense for them right I mean they see what Facebook's ability is to market a phone they see the phone that got produced and you know like what does facebook Oh HTC what you know it's not like Facebook is worried about that relationship right right yes go ahead I think that it's easier the only thing that I can see is an advantage for facebook to having cat the first as an exclusive for a period of time is that it's much easier from a consumers perspective to understand marketing around a product like a physical product and so they can put out these ads for the first which 18t had very briefly there now got all gone as far as I know on TV and and they you know they could have built this brand awareness around the first and about the concept of a facebook phone and then a few weeks or months later they can say oh by the way you can now get this experience on your phone right yeah from like a carrier perspective from an HTC perspective what if I keep thinking what if Facebook marketed this as the facebook phone because you know they could have definitely put all this you know all this folks around the device said this is you know this is our halo experience for getting facebook on your phone so I think HTC device I think the reason that they did they didn't do that and the reason that they like decided to screw HTC at the last minute is because it's not you know it's it's it has a pretty bad camera and it's you know not the fastest thing the thing that we like the best about the first was that it had stock Android which is it you know what facebook wants if you think about when we think about the first right and if the first flopped which apparently it is and it was like the only way to get facebook home that look really bad for facebook I think they would rather have the problem of trying to market software that is and it's difficult to market then they would have the problem of the facebook phone as a failure right yeah now the story right now is the HTC first as a failure because in part of Facebook right instead of Facebook being a failure because of the HTC first right I have to say thank you just thinking about the one versus the galaxy s4 people you know people they do not know what the one is unless they are like us and they're reading all these sites and because of the marketing sand the tremendous marketing spend samsung has I hear this all the time but also when you pick up the galaxy s4 it's just so much lighter even though it's this big phone it doesn't feel his be the way the one is it lighter here's is are they about the same I don't know you'll sign ahead I don't know leadership but it feels like it feels a lot lighter and you know I brought my wife fob into a best buy the other day because we decided for some reason we were going to go his invest my I don't remember why and she picked up the two of them and she said oh the one this this this looks this is pretty and then she picked up the galaxy s4 and she said I kind of want this and she's a knife allow nice is really gonna like this and and she could not for the life of her tell me why that's the same that's that's the opposite of what we usually hear I mean I'm so here's the thing though I I would been using the one I've got the unlock 32 made you know the five hundred and seventy-five bucks or whatever it was to get it and I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna sell it I'm pretty sure to put it on ebay i can make like a twitter dollar profit on it right now because HTC can't sell them they don't have them in stock and I like the battery life for me is fine on an average day but on a serious I need to get done day it does not doesn't last also I just swore that happened and you plug it on ebay auction but we'll ignore all sorts of terrible things just happened we're gonna have to throw this podcast on start over no uh-uh yeah well I mean that's true of literally any phone on the market right now save ammo rolla max series divided writing I mean even a gs4 with the 2600 milliamp hour battery ends up dying I think owing in no small part to the fact that as a 1080p Emma let's play right so you know what can you do it you know like Samsung like it's it's the same thing that happened to me at CES like yeah the hardware feels slimy it feels straight-up terrible but i can replace the battery and i would rather have an extra like quarter ounce or half ounce or even ounce weight so that i could have a better feeling back and to replace the battery but like they made that trade off and like it's like I don't know as I tried to hate it but I can't hate it it's like I want to not use the gs4 but that keeps on calling me back in this decision have anything to do with the fact that google just announced that galaxy s4 with stock android ya know that's exactly in fact let's let's just jump right into io like that segue we've talked about you guys talk about IO quite a bit there was we had a live show Christie were on so we don't need to go over everything but there's there's definitely some mobile stuff I want to tuck into here and the first is the stock android galaxy s4 and i'm like it's it's enough to get me to switch from the one you know if it worked stock i'd probably would keep the one and deal with it i bought a mophie battery for the one and everything but because it's straight plane bone stock bihn stock I I think I'm gonna do it yeah I think we all are and yet it's funny to me to think about the fact that we are all more than happy and willing to put up with the second best hardware in exchange for the software experience we want like to me that that's sort of a very final statement that we prioritize software / hardware right I don't know if we wanted was I think tangent about QWERTY keyboards but I prioritize the hardware every time so if you guys aren't where sean hollister is the last man alive who demands a physical QWERTY keyboard on his android phone he demands android so blackberry won't do it and he demands a landscape physical QWERTY keyboard uh and to his you know it is defense I have seen this man literally blindfold like literally somebody put a blindfold on him and he was able to take notes on this keyboard more quickly than I could with a pen and paper it he was basically transcribing in real time with two thumbs well in practice what this means is that he's going to be using a droid for for the next ten years you're never getting into their phone my battery life is uh III try to take a morning walk now try to get a little exercise you know mile or two takes me a little while to do this and by the time I get back checking my email one walking around the block I'll see my battery go from a hundred percent of sixty percent or something like that six things for you you go through forty percent of your battery and one walk yeah yeah ok so this all depends on like like signal and how heavily use it like so this morning waiting at the airport for an hour I killed probably thirty percent of an iphone 5 battery just because it was the airport LTE like it's hot three four bars Ville t walking down the street verizon LTE in a pretty good neighborhood for that I mean I shyness Sean if there was such a thing as a droid for max would you buy it whoa yes it could be an inch thick I'd buy it haha I tend to agree I mean I when the iphone 5 was first announced I would Apple you guys are a bunch of idiots but you should have made like nobody was complaining about the thickness of the 4s to keep the thickness of the phone the same and use that extra space that you've been able to to get out of it as as extra battery capacity and then you know hang on like thickness matters you have a different experience of the thickness of a phone depending on the screen size yo an iphone 4s is not as tall as an iphone 5 it's got a smaller screen and I bet you that if they had kept the thickness we'd all be calling it like thick and heavy right I mean that's that was that's that's our experience of the Lumia 920 right like it's not that thick it's not that heavy but because it's at got that larger screen size you put all those things together and you're kind of like her no but the 920 is thick right isn't it well millimeters or something it's insane I don't know I've got it around here somewhere I can grab it um yeah I mean you're right I think I mean said you know sadly I think that what this might mean is that Motorola had the right strategy all along which is you know just bite the bullet and make two versions the phone to keep everybody happy I would certainly take the thicker phone I'd love to know Motorola's sales breakdown between the the thinner and the thicker models I'd love to know why they didn't just spent the difference I mean I know why his right hasn't asked them to because they still a more like that's why right and they can charge a hundred dollars more for the max which is completely insane I think that was the highest price we've seen for a smartphone on contract at the time jus 99 right yeah yeah I don't think we'd ever seen higher than that I think the the epic 4g came out at 250 and said that as a ballad Christ here well another day you know 64 gig iphone yeah okay but what I mean well the talking about like real talk here real talk here I definitely paid four hundred dollars on contract for a treo 650 like that I'm sure what about a treo pro i also bought a treo pro that i bought unlocked and that was a pretty good phone I'm I kind of Miss true so we thought you might otherwise yes I'm all were talking about price 649 for this stock android galaxy s4 do they do they price these things you know and not get carrier deals for these things with these beautiful stock android phones that are unlocked because they want to be able to say we told you nobody buys these we told you so and nobody wants this that we want they want their TouchWiz they want their you know I mean they they they didn't want to deal with making carrier deals because they obviously uh Google obviously hates verizon and AT&T they they get in fights all the time or something I don't know they didn't wanna make carrier deals and you know unlike the the actual Nexus phone Google doesn't didn't want to like try and use this phone to span Google's ecosystem they weren't subsidizing it so the question is why is it google treating the s for stock what we call it but does it have a name not yet no no god damn it at all we just did like what are we gonna call it we call it the bone stock s for the boa gen stock yeah yeah for sure I'm claiming it as my own and and this is this is why I'm claiming it as my own because I think one of the reasons they're even bothering doing this is the phones moved ahead more quickly and like they need something with like more recent specs sure but the nexus 4 doesn't have LTE and I think that Google seriously underestimated just how much flack they would catch for that well deserved flak and they're like what we need a stock android phone with LTE and we look stupid without one so let's do this one and so it's they're they're happy not subsidizing it because they don't want to give like you if your google do you really want to be giving samsung like just money right now do you want to be handing money or to Samsung to subsidize a one of their phones I don't guess that what they're doing with LJ and the Nexus Wally on the hand they have three they have to be I mean they know when X is 4 4 2 49 or whatever it is yeah but yeah I mean I think it's it was kind of a no-brainer for Google because um you know they didn't need to put the time and money and effort and investment into crafting a new Nexus device yeah and especially at lekki sand that you know the turnaround from the next the nexus 4 is not that old of a phone so they saw an opportunity with GS 4 and then and they knew so first of all that the gs4 is not carrying exclusive in the US which probably made the contractual elements of this a lot easier to deal with and then so you know so all they need to do is go two cents on and say hey just drop stock Android and this man you know it's it's no sweat off your back will sell it ourselves and Samsung will make anything for anybody at any time you were your I could go to Samsung and say hey I want to I want to pink GS for running iOS and they'd be like okay well you know we can tell you those for twelve hundred dollars apiece they would be totally okay with that so so you know it was very easy for Google make this happen I could be wrong about this but I also think that it is easier for samsung to just say yeah sure we'll just make a version of it with stock than it is for say HTC because of the way that HTC does their drivers and kernels and all that other stuff was sense at least looking at it like from the outside of like trying to like get cyanogenmod support for the you know these these phones samsung vs HTC i mean obviously they've got a like numbers behind Samsung so that makes more sense to tax time so I'm and support that sooner but I also feel like it's just plain easier because there's less complication between TouchWiz and Android than there is between HTC and the drivers and stuff for android I could be wrong but I have a suspicion what about LG though why aren't they just you know building an LG Nexus more with LT elderly exactly why I'll tell you exactly why because they had a dinner miss GN AT&T and it sucked well also that let's not forget that the nexus 4 has LTE but what did ya what they what happened was Google had a terrible two things first of all Google had a terrible experience with LG in the nexus 4 they left a bad taste in their mouth and I'm sure that they were eager to move on from that relationship and then the second of all google has a long reputation of rotating between OEMs for its for its you know it's quote unquote Nexus devices they they spread the love between at this point between HTC Motorola LG Samsung uh and am I forgetting anybody quite a few different company so um no it's HTC Samsung and LG that's it yeah we need let's get a ZTE google phone motorola oh come on I mean the droid yeah and the zoom zoom Oh God we're working in urban soon okay that's fine um well I mean we'll see what happens with the you know this this rumored phone that got approved by the FCC I question is is it the X phone or not and I don't think it is but that'll be close to stock but probably not exact stock and here's the other thing even if it is the X phone is the X from the phone that we think it is well I think so because dan I wished and was on this this show right now because he was telling me yesterday hey I think he's a little more up to speed on this situation than i am but he was telling me that there are rumors of two new motorola devices and that my phone may not be the nexus right that's correct yeah there's those rumors of to a mid-range and then the X phone that does magical things and Eric Schmidt thinks it's amazing and so look but then there's also rumors about customizability and it's not sure which applies to which and then in terms of hardware customizability and software customizability and so it's not really clear what applies to what but yeah I'm expecting two phones out of Motorola this year I'm hoping but I mean so motorola wasn't at i/o i'm going to bring it back to I oh uh and neither was Android 4.3 they I mean there was who wrote it ah somebody wasn't a somebody wrote a pretty decent story that like Google at i/o wanted to prove that they could update Android without actually updating Android it's really smart because like usually every year what happens is they give you an update to Android and then we all go oh these are really cool features too bad nobody gets to use them ever and this year they added a whole bunch of stuff especially for developers and then it just applies to four point oh and up yeah but nevertheless like the way they push down there to hangouts you know the way they pushed out hangouts it's here you know you've already got this app installed on your phone talk let's just let's upgrade that before we get into the you've already got hangouts installed which is a mess um yeah what do you guys think about the lack of 4.3 I mean there were there have been rumors it was a last-minute cut had there not yeah i'm yeah exactly i'm gonna be a little more pregnant I mean I get that that that idea that they wanted to prove that they could update Android without updating Android elyria it's very nice spin yeah yeah I I'm gonna be a little more pragmatic and say that 4.3 just wasn't ready or even 5.1 you know I think that there is is some understanding that there will be another update to the four point X line of Android and then of course they're also working on the true next generation and it remains to be seen how those two kind of like dovetail with one another and I just think that they they weren't ready ya know I did more I 4.3 if I had any idea what it would do for me Tokyo blue too shall we yeah energy that's all we know and they basically announced it okay it's coming to the next SDK and it'll be on the next version of android but there were like I went to this there was a meet-up of with a pebble and it was for all the backers was right after i also like there were just a ton of people with pebble in the room and like a pebble is like yeah you know will support Bluetooth le when they get their act together I mean it wasn't actually pebble saying that but everybody in the room knew that android support for Bluetooth Bluetooth has been a mess and even at i/o there was sessions were like they basically are like yeah we've kind of screwed around with bluetooths a long time but I think we finally got it so it's good that that's finally getting supported but oh actually as long as we're talking about pebble uh there is going to be an update coming that is soon for scrollable notification so instead of getting one in a disappearing if you don't look at it you'll be able to page through notifications will you be able to see whether on your on your face yeah we feel to see what now whether on the watch face yet um so actually I was talking to one of our video producers John lagomarsino he is deep into the pebble scene he does like he uses Tasker to have his phone be automatically unlocked when it's paired and in range to his pebble and then when it gets out of range then the passcode comes on so if you're ever in the same room with him you can totally like use his phone and he won't know just you just have to get it out of his pocket anyway he says that there's some pebble hacking community somewhere that has managed to do like HTTP pass through so that you can communicate directly to the pebble through the phone by pebble app so you could have whether pushed straight to the pebble so yeah it's possible thing the hackers but it's not happened yet yeah see this is all nonsense I mean like I'm so over nerdy geeky smartwatches is that the day and time has come for a practical good-looking smart watch Citizen has tried and failed with the proximity which is a terrible device yeah if for no other reason than the fact that it doesn't support text messages of all things you cannot get a notification root access which it which makes no sense look no you need to stop blaming the Watchers like building a building a SmartWatch as long as you're not stupid and don't try and build it on top of Android itself which is what I'm watch did and they're ridiculous as long as you like just build a really simple clean real-time operating system and you code do it with some objective c or something like you can do it it's not that hard what sucks and what's hard is that the hooks to actually have a smartphone communicate to it aren't there I in either iOS or Android in a very efficient way right and because there's these rumors at both Apple and Google are working on smartwatches I don't see any incentive for them to do that to build that in so Google I guess eventually will when they release our SmartWatch hopefully they'll be open enough to let other smartwatches communicate with it but if Apple puts out a SmartWatch and it only and that's the only watch that of work with the iphone that with like full support for everything you'd wanted to do I would be kind of mad because like you should have and you know if you've got a platform that can talk to other things that you talk to other things but right now I'm not like I don't get mad at you know I don't know fossil and citizen for making crappy smartwatches because they don't have a stable like roadmap of the way it's going to communicate with the smartphone at all right now and trying to build itself contained is terrible horrible idea yeah that's that's very true in a great example that is the fact that 4.2 doesn't support ble and it's very very happy and iOS 6 it feels like I think we talked about this before but it it feels like to the developers it feels like Apple has kind of like dipped its toes in the waters of this whole smartphone concept or really the wearables concept with like ran look you know kind of spread throughout I os6 without any rhyme or reason but none of it is fully fleshed out so they just you know it's all very happy and like a good example that is the fact that in order to get notifications for anything other than calls and texts in iOS you need to like go in and like you have to do some insane thing in settings that makes sense I think its sixth apps you need to go into settings you need to go into the notification for your thing you need to make sure it's enabled on lock screen because I don't think it works otherwise with the screen off which is useless you need to toggle notifications off and on and then you need to toggle the notification type to nothing back to either on screen or banner and so it's like one two three four five taps and then six to get back out so it's six tabs to make like each and then you have to do it for every single app every time the phone happens to get disconnected from the watch so that's terrible guess what i do when i am using an iphone i only get text message notifications it's because the rest of it's just not worth my time right i mean isn't couldn't that be what Google is doing though building a platform for smartwatches and they just happened to be prototyping one so that they figure out how it works okay I hope so in fact in fact I'll bet that is what they're what they're doing I think they're probably going to show a referent you know they might have like a nexus watch but I think that the idea is going to be very much about like hey here's this entire framework that we've built for for making wearables maybe you won't even be limited to watches they'll be like you know there's a watch there's a watch profile for this platform but this is it really I mean oh we lost you Chris no no but yeah small little small device what I want here to have screens and notifications here's what I want I want someone to take Google glass yeah you can grab that platform in well yeah welcome back man it's good to have you here oh no how long was I gone a while your whole rant is just this in the ether and I said some really awesome stuff yeah well I'm going to say something even more awesome here's what I want Google to do take glass removed from my head and put it on my wrist and we're done no that's not you want yes it is oh I want so bad i canna want her okay you think you want it dieter let me ask you how long have you how much time have you spent with glass in your head like I've probably spent about I'm going to call it 253 seconds the entire time of which was spent trying to see it while wearing it above my actual glasses and seeing a blurry nothingness while wearing it without my glasses so I'm going to and and I mean this with all the love in the world eater but I'm gonna put your level of expertise on knowing what you want a visa V glass at a very low baseline okay how okay fair enough that's fine I'm just saying like glass is so I see right now like straight up like everything about it is not quite right and I don't blame google for that because they've been very very forthcoming about the fact that this is strictly like a proof of concept developer platform II kind of thing but like if none of the interactions right now our dead on and I think that they have the beginnings of a very rich and cool wearables platform but it's not there yet yeah you know when everybody had glass on like you walk gonna be like a glass and like yeah like everybody had him and so is it like you use it you change life like yeah I don't know that's cool I guess I mean Dan Scott do you get a hell of a point here though I've used glass for a few hours now everything it does right now except for taking pictures in recording video from your perspective everything else it does could be translated directly to a watch right now it uses swype you know left and right up and down tap gesture that's all you need to make it work and your voice that in your voice and it just scrolls through you know notifications of cards now what we wanted to do is use that camera give you this overlay and do some augmented reality things and they will and maybe that wouldn't work so well and watch but what they're building right now could be able to I don't know man a camera on my watch like I could that would be so serious like superhero garbage like I did be a point like you know in your wrist at somebody last point your wrist adam i like-like-like throw it up like this like like oh oh no no I want Wonder Woman bracelets that are Google glass table then I can cling them together and block bullets and then I hold it up like this I can videotape people I really don't like you guys right now this is your look you're not you are not this is not what the world needs to make smart phone or excuse me smart watches a successful car we are we stall showering you right now is this a scoble shower moment it is a finale scoble showering me that is exactly what what's happening here in opening want to bham right there watched no but I do know I dogs out this um do I need to explain skull showering no no so during I oh I mean there's a famous picture of Robert Scoble wearing glasses in the shower looking crazy because he's in the shower wearing glass and Larry Page told him they didn't really appreciate it and so now it's become like this touchstone for like what you don't want for your emerging technology you want people to think of it as like cool and not you know insane and geeky right right and and everything about that picture of Robert Scoble in the shower was that same what else okay so hangouts I cut you off earlier on this John so hangouts uh you know it's the unified messaging stuff from google it replaces Google+ messenger and google talk and Google Hangouts the video thing and then there's some drama because it will eventually integrate google voice and text messaging but for now it doesn't in fact if you use google voice to make calls me desktop you need to not switch to hang outs because you can't do that that stinks but assuming they get to where they're promising they're going to go uh it's it's pretty good right like i'm using it to talk to my girlfriend i'm pretty happy with it because they do this cool thing where every pic sure that you post into hangouts gets automatically put in a private shared album on google+ so instead of like sending Emma messes and they disappear you can you can just drop them in here and you know that you'll be able to go back and find them later which is cool i think uh i mean yes so i think that that the new hangouts is certainly a step in the direction but i feel like it's a baby step I feel like yeah consider your serious problems with it yeah it considering how much has changed and how much work they obviously put into it I'm kind of disappointed by the you know the risk versus reward and and you know hopefully they'll be able to do the things that they're saying they're going to do like like in a great voice which is very important well they also they also desperately need to still solve the problem of people who have more than one google account in fact David Pierce I think was on top shelf if you haven't watched last week's top shelf you really should he interviewed Bradley Horowitz who runs google plus uh or he's one of the guys anyway super important for Google+ and he basically is like straight up said yeah we're doing a bad job at this right now like when you go to start a hangout with somebody and they have more than one google account like you literally can't tell which one you're talking to so for us at the verge know we're you know we're using google stuff i don't want you know we'd like I'm not it sucks because every time I want to hang out with somebody I don't know which account on pinging it's the worst right and there are many many things that don't work well with multiple Google accounts right now and I almost have this sneaking suspicion that is on purpose because they want you to have one persona associated with your real name on google island but oh my god we are not okay they're not gonna going to talk about Google Island I it's been coming pretty well in the live show but it is insane google island where Larry Page I want to live on Google island I would ruin heartbeat I would move in a heartbeat Wow okay depends real fast google fiber ones on google island yeah it's a good point google fiber on google what if instead of like an island they just wall Kansas City and then we that that was a pretty sick kansas city burn or maybe i don't know maybe it was like I actually have you ever been to Kansas City it's not about town that got you know good little downtown area you can hang out that they apparently have good barbecue barbecue that's true sounder they not have fast internet they have fast internet and so do all their suburbs apparently now that's all I want just really really fast internet so the other drama about hangouts if we don't want to get into my communist rant about either how do we do we do eat we have to get into that do yes let's do it yeah so I'm really mad about messaging right now and I have been for literally months and I've been promising to write this editorial for literally months and not done it and so finally with hangouts and especially with Larry Page talking about how sad it is that a Microsoft like interrupt like takes their stuff but doesn't like interoperate and how kind of hypocritical that that statement was I finally like put this rant out there um we can't make ways to talk to each other anymore that are open and free for people to do like we don't have like with like jabber which you know is like XMPP which actually came from google like like since then everything that we use to talk to each other is owned by a company right it's we're using facebook messenger or google hangouts or I message or you know whatever and there are so there's like WebRTC is out there which is direct browser to browser real-time communication and there's some cool stuff happening there and I think Google's using some of the technology a little bit but it's still like within the hangouts framework so like there's a chance we could build something but in reality like you know we're living in a world where you basically what was the headline you either have to be fragmented were like you're using 15 different messaging apps and depending on who you're talking to use a different one that's the world I live in if I want to send yeah I want to say a message to the verge like we use one app to four different people if I want to send a message to family i use facebook i'm using hangouts for some things or snapchat sometimes if you want to send i don't know like different countries Ellis were a really great report that like laid out how different messaging apps are popular different countries so it's a huge mess and we're waiting you know if you're hoping that somebody is just going to win and dominate I don't think that's likely number one and number two even if you get your wish that which sucks because then a single company controls your text communications all of our text communications I would much rather have a world like SMS but not insanely expensive right or like jabber where I am clients can talk to each other or you know back when AOL had to like start working with msn messenger right but that world seems unlikely so it's either fragmented or it's expensive like SMS or it's locked into a single company and it sucks and I don't know how to fix it other than to like demand everybody use IRC to talk to me I'm only talking with people on IRC you know I I think back to the days when you couldn't SMS between carriers which is insane to think about now but it was a thing at one time and what ultimately ended up happening is they they conjure the carrier is contracted with companies whose whose job was to federate the SMS infrastructure and interchange text between carriers and understand which which SMS needs to go to what carrier i mean i would i would be happy it to live in like the fourth option between fragment that expensive and locked in is like talking to each other so if i can find a way for facebook and BBM and hangouts whatsapp to all get in a room and be like all right if i want to send a message from facebook to whatsapp this is how it's going to happen and like we're going to agree to do that again they just have to compete on like features and like you get more features if you happen to be in network but they can at least talk to each other which is kind of how hangouts works with the old google talk right now right you know you don't get to send stuff but you get to the least have text work right that's a nice great yes go ahead likely do you think that is honestly there it's not likely at all it's not going to happen but but you know what bothers me about that is that I think the reason it's not going to happen is because all these guys consider their fiefdom to be a competitive advantage a company like Facebook is like well we have a billion subscribers we don't need to worry about this but the reality is that a interoperability is a talking point not a disadvantage and all these companies still have plenty of other ways they can compete unlike you know the features and and the UI of their client and they can offer some sort of like rich or media when they're communicating internally with other users of the same right form so I mean I want to believe that's right but sorry Sean go ahead okay I also think interoperability means that when there is a new hot new thing out there the latest and greatest you know chat messaging program or whatever everybody doesn't immediately switch there because it's still at are operable what you have right now is good enough I see I've got lots of people I know who are still using AOL mail or yahoo mail or something like that rather than you know Gmail or or whatever you know we're using now because it still works it's still it's good enough to communicate with those new things they don't need to switch I might try it but they don't have to so I would like to believe that the reason that like they're they want to like they think their fiefdom czar value-added and important but I think the real reason that we're not going to see these these companies interoperate with each other and we're not going to see bbm and I message talk to each other anytime soon is all of these companies smell the possibilities still out there that they could win everything I think it's just like mobile payments there's a chance that you could win everything so why would you give up that having a small chance of like grabbing the whole enchilada and holding that drippy messy greasy enchilada in your little hand and yes I own the central lot like that they want it so bad they love them some enchiladas right and someone who didn't have lunch that just sounds amazing I really want an enchilada yeah and like what where's the upside for them not trying not waiting to see if they're gonna get the whole enchilada like like there's no upside to like saying you know what we're going to spend a few million dollars and we're going to work with each other now like for now there's no reason for them because there's no pressure from them from the consumer market or if there is a very strong and there's certainly no pressure from you know the government right so yeah like happy texting that's how I closed the piece and that's how I feel like it sucks and it's going to suck for a long time and her a technology what a world we've made for ourselves goodbye so here's my question for you guys why do you suppose it is that that CC and the FTC don't feel the same way about a textual messaging that they do about telephone service can you imagine if there were six different companies that all had non interoperable of voice networks I can't imagine well I mean hang on a mood like Skype and Google Hangouts and gotomeeting and we have something something something nice pots I should write yeah so but but that's a good point so the thing about pots is pots exists because we had relative we had all these different networks that they used the same standards that were that many stairs well they didn't really talk to each other till they were forced to and then they weren't really forced to they lived AT&T one right ma Bell took over and so we we had a regulated you know monopoly and then it got broken up but they when they got broken up they were required to still talk to each other so like our system of multiple companies using the same standard to inner communicate with each other took 150 years right um so I have no idea you know how we're gonna be communicating telepathically in a hundred fifty years right so I don't see I don't foresee anybody having the the will to like drop in regulation on an open free market right now because that you know that'll drive people crazy and like there's like serious concerns about that kind of heavy regulation but i also don't see the markets fixing it what happened with AOL Instant Messenger AOL wanted to merge / get bought by Time Warner and the Department of Justice said yeah if you're going to do that we're really worried that you're going to have monopoly over instant messenger so you need to interoperate and AOL did it and then they complained about it a couple years later and then instant messenger kind of just became commoditized right and it turned out to not be a big source of revenue so it's not a huge deal and there's like it that's what happened with the semester like it didn't like eight weekly result by regulation as a result of some kind but I mean here there's just too many this time it's not that we have one it's a way of too many um there's you're not going to find a solution man I know you're like they can all we could we can solve this right now in the mobile show it'll be great yeah no it's not going to happen we're screwed your Excuse I know I'm a lot of energy now what else do we need to talk about from I oh oh do we do we want to talk about the AT&T hangouts thing yes yes Chris go I've ranted it's your turn uh okay so shot doesn't care cuz he's on verizon so he lives in a beautiful perfect world he does limited for us new data so do rising world um oh yes did you know that Sean stole an unlimited plan on verizon which is insane like this point at this point anyone who is on a grandfathered data plan of any sort is like this this mythical beasts yeah you're like a lord of the earth if you're like a you're a demigod you're Hercules is what I'm saying it would close with my phone but it's across the room okay it's our Christmas 18t yeah so you know what one of the the hot new features of the updated hangouts app which replaces google talk on your phone on your android phone is a video calling of rowers and it's supposed to work both over Wi-Fi and cellular but if you know if you're using an ATT sim if you're using an AT&T sim than the than the app if you try to make a call over some a video call over cellular it says you need to be on a Wi-Fi network you do it on a verizon phone this doesn't happen and you could be on a nexus 4 which doesn't have one iota of ATT branding never sold by AT&T never advertised by 18 teen never sold in ATT store you still get that message right and so ATT initially said something to the effective and I'm paraphrasing here but they said something to the effect of uh you know pre-installed video calling apps like dash instead of paraphrasing let's just I'm just going to read their statement and um find it here um you know you want me to read their statement oh yes Sean course not not the new statement the original statement these and you want google hangout video chats don't work on 18t cellular connections on Android but why that's tape oh yes all AT&T Mobility customers could use any video chat app over cellular that is not pre-loaded on their device but which they download from the internet pause wait wait hang on back but once they download me like that distinctions is ok I'm sorry continue just because there's so much austerity it'll be great for video chat apps that come pre-loaded on devices we offer all OS and device makers the ability for those apps to work over cellular for our customers who are on mobile share tiered and soon unlimited plan customers who have LTE devices so so here's why here's why that distinction is so important to ATM t between pre-loaded and and downloaded download no easy internet guys not just downloaded over the internet over the int that you enter tubes wow the the reason this distinction is so important is because the one aspect of the FCC's net neutrality regulations that apply to while that applies to wireless networks is a is a rule that states that any app that a user downloads uh that replaces or obviates functionality offered by the carrier cannot be blocked by by the carrier so in other words uh if you know say ATT offers a video calling service they can't say well to customers can't download your own video calling service that's not allowed right um and so 80 is making the very tenuous claim that hangouts which you download via Google Play is a pre-installed app on Android by virtue of the fact that it replaces the Google to the built in google talk app which I submit would not stand a chance of holding up if it came to an FCC hearing when civilians also like like grabbing on to what to me sounds like an actual accidental distinction about like apps that you download over the Internet and forgetting the FCC basically didn't didn't account for the use case of taking an unlocked phone that had pre-loaded software on it onto a network it's such a garbage distinction right right it's right ridiculous yeah but but so there there are many that that's discretion the service the service issues here because the next problem is that it is completely unclear and still to this very minute completely unclear who is blocking this disservice on ATT cellular and how resin is it google who's playing ball with 18 teen saying okay well we'll just we'll add some code or apt its and not while users to do that or is eighty somehow doing something you know are they doing some deep packet detection where they're saying oh this is coming from google hangouts we're shutting it down is it a combination we don't know nobody's saying i actually don't need to do deep packet detection so I we there was a story in the past two weeks about a new MVNO but they don't want to be called an MVNO it scalds act and they sell these cheap Android LG phones and the idea is that you can have like incredible parental controls and then you can like adjust your data and buy facebook only plans and whatever you can adjust data minute by minute right on the phone it's kind of cool but it's you know it's on sprint so I don't know how far it's going to go but they can you can like set up parental controls to block the use of certain apps on your kids phone and the way they do that is they just like they know what all the apps are in Google Play they know what the apps are then they just like hash it and if that app is being run at the moment they can and like a lot our just allow data so yeah possibly 18t we be able to run that software I don't know Carrier IQ we've seen that the carriers can see which you know exactly which apps are using they'll know which of them have been preloaded or not don't know this is appointed all that fun stuff the weird thing is that it it's like pop it's not just failing out it's popping up an error message so Google had to write that error message right right presumably yeah and and also let's let's not forget that this is happening on a nexus 4 not on a mighty NT device right which is really kind of weird and scary and frightening but so a CT ended up capitulating is some extent just like they did with the facetime situation last year and I've been saying that all video apps video chat apps will be enabled by year's end is that right I think that's what they said they said do you wanna read the second save and Sean I the second statement is actually gonna make to me as well like I don't believe I don't I believe there's still wiggle room for them to be horrible people in the second statement but go ahead yeah I almost don't know if this this will help anybody listening but for video chat apps that come pre-loaded on devices we currently give all OS and device makers the ability for those apps to work over cellular healer that I don't for our customers who are on mobile share tiered plans Apple Samsung and blackberry have chosen to enable this for their preloaded video chat apps and by mid-june will have enabled those apps over cellular for our unlimited plan customers who have LTE devices from those three manufacturers okay pause right there so this doesn't solve the hangouts problem yet this paragraph because they're saying we give these device makers the ability for those apps but you need to work with ATT in order to do it basically and then the distinct that they're making is that it currently doesn't work on unlimited but they're going to solve that by mid-june so right basically what they're saying is like the distinction between eighteen t plans of what you can and can't do with those preloaded apps is going to go away and that's great and what they should have done from Jump Street but it's still like there's still like this weird super insanely subtle dig at Google for not playing ball with AT&T continue throughout the second half of this year we plan to enable pre-loaded video chat apps over cellular for all of our customers regardless of data plan or device that work is expected to be complete by year-end today all of our customers can use any mobile video chat that they download from the internet such as Skype and you download a hangouts from the internet there dot I don't uh yeah so we plan to enable pre-loaded video chat apps over cellular for all our customers regardless of data plan or device so that is the the sentence that makes it sound like they're probably going to turn on hangouts over 3g or edge or LTE or whatever that work is expected to be complete by year's end come on come on come on just come down yet everything about this is just complete BS because neither AT&T nor Google have made any effort to cut the doublespeak and just be straight about what's going on Oh have we heard a statement from google yeah no no but that you know there's certainly no Diane yeah yeah we've been trying we started trying day one uh right right and and you know let's let's not let's not forget that this is happening on on the Nexus 4 is it so is happening on a Google Nexus device with a google app so you know i mean that their silence speaks volumes and and somebody needs to come out and and explain i think that somebody owes us an explanation on how and why this is happening and frankly the FCC i don't think that that mignon Clyburn is going to make any effort as in a role as interim chairwoman of FCC to investigate this but somebody in the government needs to say what the heck is going on here because the FCC oh no we heard I sources have sources have told us that the FCC did in fact basically go to AT&T in the facetime situation and say you guys need to work this out which it which is why AT&T came back and said ok we're opening it up somebody needs to do that again you know I don't know if we need to get a public interest group involved they probably already are I mean in we're going to rename this from the virtual show to the verge FCC do your job show I like it but are you on like a digital trampoline right now Chris off somebody needs to put pressure on FCC to put pressure on the n AT&T rented to be really straight about was going on here yeah um yes yes yes think there was a segue in the same i I don't I think he was saying yes to saturday i need i need some wow um Chris if we can keep you here we're going to talk about CJ but if we can't we might need to move on we were planning to keep this a secret from you all the way chris has evolved into a completely digital p yeah he's not using the matrix uh oh wait Chris we got you okay good this is some good radio right here um google play music I don't know it seems okay although it seems to be really unfriendly to data like it seems to just suck down data even though it shouldn't be like goo stream and album even it seems crazy high but I haven't used it enough to tell but it's good it's got like it's got like the right interface the only problem I have with the google play music all access is that it doesn't have like my friends on it but other than that like actually like finding music and starting a radio stream and like queuing up playlists and all that stuff it's just I don't know it's more boring of an interface and audio or Spotify but it's more comprehensible to my brain maybe because I'm like such an android guy as a really basic Pandora user who does not pay for any music whatsoever and just likes to listen to new things in sequence without searching for them is this something I want to try yes I one you could actually like have your own music library to you can you can play a specific song if you want it three when's the last time you heard a song on pandora that was new come on I always hear the same stuff on pandora all its it often gives me the same things but I never ever want to search for anything I just want something that is spitting out music in the background I don't care about having a library I don't care about the trash Pandora's not I'm ready for you I guess okay I just I didn't understand I totally understand the Pandora use case for people who are not you know not like super into music I get it they just want some background audio Sean uh you know what I'm trying to say is that you're not that into music but if you you know if you have favorite artists and you have favorite albums then I think that you need and even if you just want to access the new albums quickly I think that you need everybody needs at this point some kind of subscription streaming music solution and what I'll say about all access that I haven't found I haven't found any reason like there's nothing about all access form like oh my god I need to drop my Spotify subscription of moves all access and I think Google knows that which is why they're offering the 799 discount that presumably people will be able to grandfather into where if you sign up now you pay two bucks less than you're paying for for Spotify or Rdio which is kind of cool I guess right yeah I mean I'm paying for Spotify Rdio itunes match and now google music all access yeah I need to drop my itunes match that's a complete waste of money I need to drop three of those so no I might be paying for Pandora pro there was a wild boar I was also paying for slacker let me just lay that out there like there may have been a period had I not if i'm not paying attention it's possible i am but i got it i got a check him pretty sure i'm not we're like I had subscriptions to Pandora slacker itunes match our do Spotify and itunes what about mug never mog never could you ever pay grooveshark I did used to pay grooveshark for a while because they were the only thing that was around with webos I think you're right Chris I'm just not that into music yeah yeah here's a problem is like I use Spotify for a while I call god this is like I love this radio feature this works really well like then I'm like oh but wait this interface is horrible and then they go to our do and like oh this is great only like I can't actually like find my own music this is horrible and then I give up on everything and I Sean it up and I'm just going to turn on pandora forget everything and like no I want something specific and then I go to google and like oh this is good I just need to like settle on one and I just end up giving up and listening to a podcast instead so well regardless of how you do it i will say that that like that just the notion of actually buying an album seems so weird and antiquated horrible now the guy I can't I can never I would never even think about paying you know even seven dollars just to own an album I would never dream of it now um I would if I couldn't get it on in the internets to stream I would are there any rumors are there any rumors about a streaming service coming amazon prime because that seems like a really obvious thing it does but as you would wouldn't know if you read Greg Sandoval's work on the verge the music publishers are really starting to climb up at least with apple and I wouldn't be surprised with with others about licensing stuff well work for Google yeah I worked for google I don't know where Amazon's add I think I'm worked for Google in part because they're not Apple so maybe maybe it doesn't maybe haven't done doesn't need to worry but they should do it all right let's let's talk about ctia what happened to CJ a Chris you're there still yeah um so I think that the highlight of the show I mean there's there's obviously obviously been a torrent of news from ctia but i think the i think that the sure that the crown jewel has been a JLo at horizons press conference today which was literally i didn't time it but i want to say who's under 15 minutes it started late and then ended like 15 minutes later was the weirdest thing and JLo was jayla I don't know if jail has ever used a teleprompter before but like right right in front of her they had like this giant projector it was the biggest teleprompter I've ever seen in my life and she just stared at it the entire time made no effort to look at anybody in the audience was was Phil Dickinson of android central sitting directly behind the teleprompter because he was posting photos that were it looked like she was staring directly into his soul haha yeah that's that's very plot oh yeah I in fact I know exactly where to fill my concern was sitting yes he was toward the center of the of the stage yes yeah okay so she announced that verizon is partnering with a company called Morehead to open a a bunch of all and bright star to open a bunch of Latino focused a third-party eat cellular retailers the faso that could finish no please i I'm dying to have you interject some some commentary here no I'm just depressed because the fact that I like actually like recognized Moorhead and bright star and that Verizon have held an event where in my knowledge of those things became relevant and makes me very angry at myself and at verizon Oh Sascha Segan a pc magazine was livid that that uh that they you know that I suspect that he probably would it would have been gone by big from vegas by now it had not been for the timing of the spent and yeah they called everybody there's a huge line to get in the press conference it was like CES style you know around the around the block in the venetian is the only thing that was the only press event at CES of yeah yeah and every you know a lot of sites were live blogging it and there was a there was a forum post in the verge forum saying why isn't the verse live blogging this and i replied like because we're not expecting it to be worth the live blog and we were right we were absolutely right i mean don't get me wrong i was a little star-struck sitting just a few feet away from from JLo but yeah that was only news and then yesterday I mean Kia Sierra introduced a new low end waterproof phone his name I don't even know cricket announced a couple new low end android devices nokia is showing be Lumia 925 here but that's not really new because we've already done a hands-on with that you can see it on the verge calm so yeah it's been a very very quiet show yeah okay great you mentioned the 925 so we vote if we since we've last podcast as we've done hands-on with the 925 and the 928 the Lumia 928 is coming to verizon i think it is horrible 925 is awesome by the way I think the 925 isn't quite as awesome as you do but I but it is really really good compared to the 928 it's night and day the 928 is just like a square block with a bump on the back it's got a xenon flash so that's interesting they'll be review up on the site soon so I'm not going to say much more and by the way uh this is a very interesting thing that I didn't know the 925 actually is a better camera than the 98 it has more element 0 is always yeah six elements instead of five but it doesn't have the Xenon flash so you know but it's got a this aluminum you know body thing and then like the the thing I don't like is that the back has a seam around it but like that's kind of a nickel but like it feels it feels like basically like a really good I don't even know it's it's not quite Nokia's design language it's a little bit of an evolution of it and so like that seam doesn't help but it it holds up way better than the 920 just in terms of like this feels like it belongs in 2013 I think yeah I don't mind I'm okay yeah and yeah I still really like the that the old design language they've had since was of the m9 ya know we all do is look um it was enough to get me to buy a windows phone I mean right but yeah so the 925 looks good but it doesn't it's not like like crap your pants good right I would put it on the same plane I think that it it has a legitimate claim to sit at the same table as the iphone 5 and HTC One in terms of materials and build quality and design and then of course the you know the kiddie table next to it is like you know gs4 and you know the the optimus g pro and the nexus 4 is kind of like someone between the two tables so I would I would I would put the HTC One on the iphone 5 at the the adult table I would put the 925 and maybe the end for at the the kiddie table or like they just got promoted to the adult table but they're not sure if they belong it they don't know which fork to use yet and then like I would put the s4 as like at the card table out in the garage with the relatives that you don't know right right which is sometimes the coolest place to be but sometimes not sometimes it smells like gasoline yeah card tables covered a lot of tiree crash you are the gs4 of your family's what you yes um all right we've been going for like an hour and 20 minutes uh the only other thing I will talk about the q5 blackberrys stuff when dans back because he was there at blackberry live and it'll be late but it doesn't matter because it's the q5 and we're not going to talk about the yet more drama with sprint and Clearwire and dish because like we could tell we could basically say the same story every week we don't know what's going to happen there's going to be a board vote soon there's lots of insider crap going on and that stuff keeps changing actually that that's it we talked about it's done sprint up their bid for clearwire to try and be dishes bid but Clearwire's investors are still unhappy about it and sprint doesn't have it as locked up as we thought they did and it's a mess and it's going to continue to be a mess and hopefully by the end of the month when did they delay their board boat clearwire it's late i don't know i don't have the date in front of me it doesn't matter it's a mess and like it'll get fixed i guess and i don't know if dish ends up winning out that'll be huge but i don't know it will say what I mean I'll offer I mean no dish really fully grasps the gravity of the of what they're trying to do I me no not at all you know I mean look urban co which you know with all these cable companies who had this grand vision of creating their own wireless network and then they're like oh wait a second holy crap this is really hard and it's a nightmare and this is not something we want to deal with and so they just ended up you know pawning off all their their spectrum and dishes running in the opposite direction yeah and I don't think that they fully understand what it means to build out a nationwide LTE network no um on that note thank you Sean for coming on the show it's been great having you here we'll have you back it'll be great sorry I interrupted you so many times been real that's that's your newbie that's that's your welcome to the verge mobile show hazing so like it yeah everyone okay see it's it's kind of terrible just taste you that's what if you want to follow Sean on Twitter oh you should he is Starfire 2258 on Twitter that there's a good story behind that chris is Z power I am back lawn Vlad and Dan hopefully we'll both be back next week and you can follow us all on words you can also leave a comment on the post on the site and we'll be back guys thanks