Gadgetory

hey and welcome to the verge cast for the week of October 29 2012 I'm Josh Topolsky I'm Nilay Patel I'm David Pierce I maybe ross miller and and and we were all together here sort of on the first birthday of the verge we're not all together I mean we're for virtually together physically we couldn't be further apart it's the power of texts are awesome David who are physically very close together uh-uh and anyhow this is our it's our first birthday anniversary or birthday anniversary is that a thing that happens I don't think that's actually reverser II birth bursaries and um and it's also a big week of news yeah so we talked about and I got a hard stop because I got things to do very important things that I know that our readers we disappointed if I don't finish you're a really big businessman we get this done big bidness business just to let people know why we're all separated the hurricane in New York is over but New York is still recovering yeah and we can't Josh life cannot physically get to the studio from Brooklyn Josh you try buddy we we can't I mean we can but like the level of difficulty and confusion and chaos that it is like requires is a little bit more than I think I mean basically like you know we got Michael and I got picked up by a car here and they were like when we called for a car they're like okay you've got to people that's fine then when we got picked up there like we need to find the third person to go into the city because you need to have a quota of people to take cars into the city right and then when we turned the corner off of my street there is like a children of men situation where where there's like no I'm not even kidding there's like cops like there's a lines there's I'd live near two gas stations and there's lines like of cars trying to get into the gas right cops like patrolling like the gas station lot so that people don't steal gas or like get into a gunfight or something and and I looked over the the I looked at towards the bridge where you go to get into Queens to get to to get to the tunnel or to the bridge and it's it's like it was eluding say I mean this is I I think I don't know if people who aren't in New York or New Jersey or along the east coast that got really hit by the hurricane or aware of this but it actually is pretty bad I mean things think real things happen like horrible and hurricane things happen here I nobody's like you know was another were like a lot of jokes like Oh New Yorkers are blowing this out of proportion and it's actually like people died like houses were destroyed like cars were like blown into buildings like it's really it's pretty crazed you guys get so eyes that would you guys have power the entire time like anybody our power somehow stayed on and I don't know why or how because there's flooding like a block from here and like the whole lower portion actually northern portion of the portion of where I live is flood was flooded I don't know about Neela you were evacuated so yeah I'm extremely irritated about being haha didn't you get taken to no power from having power so uh we were evacuated I live right on the East River and we were evacuated for Irene and we literally we evacuated to a friend's house that was like two blocks away so we just went somewhere else and then this time they said they were going to preemptively shut off power so we left and we went to some place for the power and the water went out and they actually didn't shut off power in my building so the building next door they locked everybody in so it was like to dramatically different strategies when I get out not say wow yeah in the building next door uh was somebody in a studio looks like the next door and she said they just locked everybody hit which i think is that's insane I like like the idea of locking people in during a horrible event like that right that seems that I came back so you know the riverfront here is like it is broken you noticed i took some pictures of the city and when I came back I realized that I couldn't see what I was exposing like in a river and there was just like debris like floating in the river like pieces of the pier there's a construction site next door it is a lake again so yeah it's clearly things are bad it's not it's not great but so anyhow a long story short our problems aren't nearly as bad as the kinds of problems that other people are having and and by the way we put a I believe it went up or it's going up a post on the site about how you can donate right we have a we're gonna put the website Brittany can we put the link on here too it's a I think the door be baffling Auriga on the verge to information about how you can you can donate if you want to help out and you know look it's there are worse there have been worse hurricanes in worse situations but I don't think like I wouldn't downplay that you know a lot of people got hit really badly and they need help and I mean it is truly like all over the city you know things are not normal no I oh the last week I heard I think we all just got phone calls who live in the East Village Sandy's of the Kona is not expecting power until saturday at eleven o'clock at night like pretty much saw straight on the temple on in lower Manhattan is what won't have power until Saturday yeah I mean you know to just so people who don't live in New York may not realize this but like the subways are out and when the subways are out in many of the subways on all of them but a lot of them because they're flooded or damaged and took a ferry to then I had to take a ferry though and when subways go out in New York people don't drive here you know all the other cities like people drive they're like oh you're gonna take a detour but there are no detours when the subways aren't running it's like you just can't get there so you either take another right like or you walk it literally feels like my neighborhood at least feels like that early part of like GTA 3 weird like running around you don't know what to do you're very low on supplies we're spending for like the thing to light up it's a subways unlock you can access different parts of the city is like my neighbor is out of stuff well anyone either store yesterday I was like there's there's just nothing there it's the trucks are coming in slowly but uh you know yeah knows it's a hurricane actually so there's a couple like really interesting kind of hurricane stories out of New York they're more kind of more directly technology related but I think are really interesting so we ran a report yesterday I want to say it's yesterday there's a lot of startups to New York and they all for whatever reason there's a lot of startup data centers in New York and right now they're all they're literally calling diesel fuel up 17 flights of stairs to power their generator to keep things like Squarespace going to keep a Trello going to mean there's a whole host of them that are like but all that are literally running on diesel fuel right now stack exchange Gawker is totally out there still out there deviating times out they've been using tumblr which is funny cuz tumblers in New York based startup but their servers are elsewhere yeah live stream is having trouble like all kinds of stuff right it's really bad already had we're being told we're running our gzel fuel right now Wow yeah I think Joshua Topolsky is is is done yeah I think I think he's out josh Josh ran out of diesel fuel uh no it's it's been insane like I know for the last few days actually I got I got electricity for the first time last night we're staying at a friend's house before that I was trying to stay in my apartment kind of like the East Village area and you have to you see these crowds of people just walking up like they're just making a trek to twenty seventh street to get power at whatever outlet they can find yeah i saw though i saw there's one picture i don't remember if it was from you or who else but it was the like the one spot in the east village where there was cell service yes it's that's at ninth and see it's crazy I'd like to hear me we can hear you I can hear you yeah it's like yeah so like you have to like walk up to 27 to get cell service guys 39th 40th you get you know you start seeing powerless ever open yeah things are kind of coming on buses right now only go down I think 23rd they like cancel efforts like weather conditions they may be back now I don't want to spread misinformation yeah I mean it was like that picture like the Neil I has this great picture if you haven't seen it we have this great photo essay of stuff from sandy but just this one picture that Neil I took where it's like the bottom half of Manhattan it just cuts off and then you can literally see like here's where Manhattan still exists and you are you are seeing these people make these kind of treks yeah up and down north and south istry is just a just a fine power lines get super crowded I think I was telling you the day it took me to a 63rd street to find open power outlet at a Duane Reade crazy charge my phone and I'm sure it's like all-out war to get I'm always like you know a power strip like you're sure you are the project they all get together type of websites to go to that will have updates nice it's a very interesting sense of community around you like little ATM enclosures that have power outlets that's crazy uh it's very interesting way they're doing up some trees have power let's nearby because there's the you know they the Christmas lights moving around they just outside rights and they just plug in their phones and just sit on the curb and talk crazy it's very interesting hello oh we switched sides oh that happened so I'm like about co Jenner using LTE cuz i don't i don't know what's going on with time warner but uh mean this is the same as tau it's time order it's not good right now oh yeah so anyway we're doing really at all yeah we can hear you can you hear us yeah no really i can barely make you guys out mm-hmm you sound okay but you're breaking up a bit for me this is apparently a nightmare hell ride that you're speaking like you're a translation right now the way the mouth you should begin a large cast not ears we missed that post it's not good just lame yeah we're kind of RT there like a few minutes yeah sorry man look there you guys are gone all right yeah well i just turned off mine i just went off my video for the time being okay so we'll just imagine your beautiful thing cuz it's the giant floating head shocking well it's funny it's funny i have an LTE device sitting here that is hahaha oh wait he's badgering nope and might who hi nice this is yeah guys um yah y la what's up oh I'm enormous hey still large man uh do we need to figure out how we look complete to the to the stream in the world well obviously we're having some technical difficulties we can we need turn them off for a minute to me turn a live audience figure out what we're doing with Josh and come back to them yeah that's on guys we'll we'll be right back after these brief messages of nothingness yeah I'm sorry everyone right back on us is the Josh Topolsky zweite hand hey if you're just joining us so are we let's just start over yeah all right okay we're just okay wait I just want to say I just want to just talk about what just happened are we back on the air we're back on the I want to tell the world I want to tell the world about what just happened okay long story short when I reviewed the iphone 5 I got a new sim for my account on 18 tea with I got a micro sim and obviously they you know maybe account compatible with LTE because it's an LTE phone then when I was going with the review I took the sim out and I put in an adapter and I switched back to my galaxy nexus recently I've been reviewing another phone which is also an HSPA device and anyhow my connection here at my house has been very bad at since the hurricane the time warner connect it's normally very bad but it's especially bad post-hurricane and i have a gs3 here in AT&T gs3 on LTE which is getting ridiculous speeds down a separate phone that I've using that I'm testing with uh I'm testing the data on and so I was like here's what I'm gonna do my networking is terrible but that but the account that that phone has that's a review phone it is not set up for the s3 now I'm talking about is not set up for tethering okay I was like I'm going to tether my computer to a phone on LT because I'm getting very good speeds right now so I was like well I'll just take my sim out since its provisioned for LTE and for tethering I'll take it out of the phone that I'm testing right now i'll put it into the gs3 that i have sitting here and i'll use that to tether with LTE okay were you with me so far no I put the sim in as 18t recently told us you could do I put my sim into an LTE phone on AT&T and I try to register it on the network and it would get no data okay you with me because the phone I clearly had not been provisioned yeah for me so I had to take that to mount and put it in the iphone 5 and now i'm tethering over LTE on the iphone 5 long story short iPhone 5se the day 18 he lied about whether you can put a sim another LTE device and have it work and it's very it's getting it's becoming increasingly likely the next phone that I purchase is going to be the iphone 5 I mean didn't we enter increasingly didn't we forget me that LT is just like the worst thing in general I just don't know no I mean it's great artists your own else I'll be the best thing engine but the way the way it's managed in the way that carriers deal with it like it's crazy that you can't take a sim card and put it into your phone and do things with it that he recently appointed man pure appointed your appointed all right anyhow and saying so so so let's let's get back to the to the matter at hand which is whatever we were talking about on this hurricane ruining everyone's like the hurricane Rooney we're talking with the Herkimer in everybody's life and now you just ruined our it's we spend a half an hour of trying to figure out how I could get online yeah happy birth emerge cast happy person happy birthday verge yeah we got you this nerve shattering how ride as a present um anyhow are what else is what else we need to talk about of the Lumia Lumia review better than up that go up sit up let's just pretend that we're saying all this like two minutes from right now I was gonna go really yeah well we cooked out due to get people ready is it actually happening it's it's it's happening as we speak right now right now on twitter people are that they heard they heard that and they're freaking out let me another one of you everybody's perked up and goes Lumia just be ready in just a sec I'm used to meteor guys there are guys right now somewhere who be just began sharpening a knife there in our rooms of employees Microsoft has to be in our common system are there in a room angrily queuing up their sangre sangre sangre is it up now it's not up we that's well let's come back to pit let's talk about yeah so we did if we can set up the lumiere review we cannot so we also earlier this week reviewed windows phone 8 and reviewed the HTC windows phone 8x right now which is kind of like the like hardware manifestation of Windows Phone 8 I mean it's all the windows phone 8 it's my yourselves for an exit the end ordained flagship phone right we did with the HTC yes yep I like I really like that device a lot what do you think I've spent almost more time with it for a windows phone I have been it's downstairs I would bring it up and I don't it's I'm not gonna I'm not if you don't you will easily actually don't get it ever please no I can't risk I can't risk any any waves through the air um I uh I uh I any I like it I think it's a really nice device my problem with Windows Phone and I'm sure that this will be talked about my problems windows phone is is at this point is is it feels like it's like version one again and and I actually think they fixed a lot of the the things like a lot of the things that I was kind of frustrated by in in with the Lumia review when I was doing that like I think have been fixed in the latest in the Windows Phone 8 but I still think it's like I have trouble understanding in what circumstance I would tell a consumer to go get the Windows Phone device over the over the you know best android device or best you know well the iphone 5 you know like it's hard for me to do there are I think there are people who it's great for I just think those people are not the vast majority of consumers right this moment what about your office people that was one of the things we said about the surface i think i can think of you're a hardcore office user and i think that if you're like completely immersed in the world of office and windows and you want a phone that will do that will work seamlessly with all of that stuff i think it's a good choice the reviews I by the way so everybody should go when I what the reviews out does you in it or at least wait our Lumia 920 reviews up what y'all gonna go tweet I'm looking at it on yeah the verge not kinda mazey so sure my so I think I think um but i think that uh you know when I talk to people and they say um you know this is here's what I need in my smartphone x y&z you know they want to Instagram and they want you know and like it may get there but I don't know and that's the thing about it being like feeling like version one is like we still don't know what if it's getting there yeah right um well you know I think it's improved I think it's improved i think it's i think it's um I think it's competitive with uh the iphone and the latest iPhone and then the latest Android devices uh it's just like it's hard for me to recommend it it's hard for in it's hard for me to imagine part of what using it part of what kills I know instead of one of those devices yeah part of what kills me is that like it Microsoft's trying to create their own kind of cordon off ecosystem like Apple and Google are but they're so far behind at this point like SkyDrive is great like if you don't use anything SkyDrive is great and it's a perfectly viable it really is but like I bet you already use Dropbox and if you use Dropbox windows phone is is not a good system for that um and so it's like if you like just came on to the earth today there's like a lot of stuff to like in Microsoft's ecosystem but it's impossible to get into unless you're already in it and most people probably aren't in it because they're so far behind with all this stuff right I just think yeah I mean I and again like and this is a this is a thing that I've complained about I complained about with the surface I'm gonna talk about it here i I just I am perplexed at Microsoft's failure to show me some killer like some killer like games for instance you know the hey like hey look like there are things there are games that they have their franchises that are you know either either exclusive to the xbox or they are first run Xbox titles and they come to other platforms if they had a handful of those you know literally like five to ten it could be the difference between me kind of really wanting one of these devices and not wanting you know and I think that um I don't play games that often but it's a very enticing idea I know they're starting to get the xbox the metal music thing is now you know kind of finally really a part of it smartglasses feels like it's a part of this ecosystem feels like it's alive um it's like it's been sparked to life but it hasn't you know gone out and terrorize the village yet that's a sign yeah i guess i reverence just looking at a looking at our two reviews of the 8x and the 920 it definitely seems like the 8x is the way to go yeah why do them very close scores uh just because the Lumia has this really great camera with the 8x it seems like a better phone I like that I'd like this i'm frankly like the smaller I mean that the hardware one thing I'll say about the Lumia the hardware is really huge it's like the biggest Yogi's phone i've used in awhile it can see specifically what I mean yeah yeah and and and and the other thing I'll say about the Lumia it's got a very its low-light camera performance is insane and its stability is insane but it actually takes like rather dull photos and it's something that we went back and forth on you know tom warren vlad savov dieter bohn dieter bohn wrote the majority of this but we all worked on the review we all kind of traded ideas and and stuff about the phones back and forth because we all had an opportunity to use the device and um you know I think we all were like the camera is really really good in some situations and then the other situations where it's like weirdly not well you know I will say this to think you know low light is the most important feature of a camera I think what's the most different I always look at my shirt what the rest of frenching feature but you know even on my iPhone I I look at those pictures again when i get home on a computer screen i'm like oh these are these are all terrible my real camera takes much better fighters in this and that is you know one of the best you know probably within the top five best cameras in the market for phones i mean uh in the reason it's because there's a tremendous amount of blur and everything because it has to keep the shutter island just to get light it I mean we we had a conversation we had a conversation about this and there was a lot of dispute over the camera it it's like we were comparing photos of like the iPhone you know I think we did a comparison of photos like the iphone to the Lumia to the to the gs3 to whatever the flagship devices are and and you know people are gonna go crazy for me saying it but like the iPhone had nicer looking photos yeah you know they were better-looking photos I don't know what kind of Voodoo they're using the Lumia is a really good camera but um the iphone nine times out of ten takes nicer looking photos yeah I mean you could argue like we I was talking about this with dieter earlier like you could argue that the ones from the 920 are actually better photos like their if you take photos on a cloudy day they're muted because they should be because it's muted and dull and it's a cloudy day right but uh they don't look as good like the iphones processing just kind of makes these colors pop and like if you're a pro and know what to do and can go and process or fix them like jordan oplinger is gonna take unbelievable photos with the 920 all right but right if you just want what you want you want to be able to take it what you want from a phone is to be able to get good results without right tweet right we don't want you want to be able to like quickly take photos that are good like that's the whole point the key to the whole idea is like you're not carrying a camera with you you're carrying well I mean it is a camera but you're carrying a camera that is quicker and simpler and uh and produces better results than if you were to just hang on to a point you take it around with you you know yes like you're trading off a few things but like what you don't want I mean don't get me wrong it takes really really good photos um I just think I think that it has some very very good qualities then I think it has some negatives and I don't think you can you can have one without the other and I think that nokia has done this has done this evangelizing about the camera that it's really you know at least in our in our readers um uh has taken root that this is the best camera ever in the history of okay no so i took a picture of the skyline in manhattan and i got emails from people telling me it would have been a better picture had i taken it with a 920 it's like wow i took 3 16 megapixel raw frames on a tripod uh and put them together with HDR I don't I mean I I know that you loved a 920 I just don't think it would have taken a better picture than when I put together here like you're crazy and that is everywhere every picture that I take I somebody tells me that the 920 would have done it I mean it's been it's like the only reason they think that is because that's what Nokia is constantly been telling right right they have it is writing nobody else no I mean it's definitely like if there's definitely a seems to be some kind of you know campaign happening um when I say goes a little bit of an issue with the review there's definitely some campaign happy with no again like you know god bless them they did make a phone with a nice camera but it's not like your your your brain will explode when you see the quality of these photos you know they're very good the low-light performance is crazy i will say that it took pictures in like almost darkness for me that we're like the room was completely lit and I don't and I don't fully a fully understand the Voodoo that they're doing there and so like for that purpose like I think in like dark settings like there's you're not gonna get better performance out of a camera but it's like overall there are to me it feels bluish it's like bluish and washed out um compared to photos from other cameras that look richer that have better color reproduction and and I actually had some focusing issues with it I was actually surprised that it took a few photos for me where it was like autofocusing worth it like did not focus correctly and the photos were completely blurry so you need to have like a little bit of I mean I do think the hardware I mean part of the problem is Windows Phone now has this mode where it's at you tap and it focuses and takes the picture at the same time or you use the hardware button to focus but the harbor button requires an incredibly hard pressed to actually snap the photo so by the time you've by the time you focused in the first step of the two-step focusing and shooting when you start to shoot it actually shakes your hand a lot more than than necessary by the way I have one here I guess I should I should tell people yeah I'm like definitely unable to take good pictures with the hardware button because I end up just like moving the camera violence is the austere that's a here in Colorado no I have to say like this hardware is really nice I mean it's just huge haha it is gonna kill a minute let me in 920 no question let's do a comparison here's the Galaxy Nexus okay uh I don't know if that's a good a little bit move it directly in front of your face other way there is the Galaxy Nexus you know boy um here's the it's actually about the size of the of the e like I just I'm pulling out can you see this this is the life of josh tuples yeah can you see that bras move your head up do it the show don't worry about me you're good what do you mean your head is in the shot I can tell you're looking around camera don't worry though i see ok so good yes technology that's okay and then um others the can I do this this is that at Nexus 4 ok yeah you can idea of the size here you can get an idea of the thickness but they're close but this guy feels a little bit bulkier in the hand I mean it's really heavy tonight like really heavy it's heavy but but I I mean I will say this but that's where I think the 8x is is is a little bit better of i think will be better for a broader consumer is because it's actually a really felt skinny like it feels small in your hand and I think that'll appeal to look it's a 4.3 inch screen you know I think it will appeal to people who don't want the giant screen I think the 8x is again I have one downstairs i'm not going to get it though uh is kind of the perfect size but um look there's no there's no there's no denying that no matter what is going to happen what we say today about the lumia the comments on this review will be will be the worst a set of comments that we've ever had on a post in the history of the verge and it couldn't come on on a better day gonna be hard to beat the surface i think yeah let's take a sampling no I think you can beat the surface let's take a sampling of some comments here also josh i will say everybody seems to be a lot more excited in in chat on the verge cast everybody's more excited about the nexus for everybody just kind of forgot about the 920 and it's now like all they want to know that is the end for catch I something about the nexus 4 I think I don't know if we're allowed to I don't know what the Google's been a little bit like the rules of because we have we're reviewing it under embargo i guess i can say that i'm saying that now i don't really know what's going on this point right somebody massage it's fine yeah right i mean but you know Phil Dickinson had a thing up earlier he was kind of taking questions on and other people have tweeted photos and talked about it you know obviously we have to you know they were going to have an event I mean the thing that happened which is weird that i don't--all I feel realize is that we went and did we had these a couple of features that we worked on we went to Google and we got to get the Inside Story and had some exclusives with them but then we had that coverage was supposed to be you know coincide with when they had their event and everybody would have had a chance to do hands-on and video and suffering because the hurricane hit we ended up being having all this extra coverage like by accident it was not a planned thing obviously everybody would have had a bunch of access to these phones at they held the event but uh uh sandy how so an apple fanboy sandy is an apple or microsoft fanboy because microsoft that's true yeah that day without any interruptions any I don't know where I was going with this I cracked the back of my nexus 4 that's what I wanted best transition I drunk I drop it I'll have a picture of it I dropped it off off the I dropped it off my dining table and yeah I don't know if you'll go back if you watch my video with Matthias I say aren't you worried about it breaking and he tells me about how the chamfered edge and all this stuff but how it's protecting it right it doesn't protect it from a 30 inch drop from a dining room table on a hardwood floor in case you're wondering it's a small crack cuz really bothered me that much um so I have one too and I I do this thing where I I tossed my phone onto my couch as I'm walking by and the day and I was missed my couch yesterday I was tossed it onto the floor it was fine just completely fine picked it up oh I really know your ear everybody's experience may know I know I all said whatever is going on with your house Josh cuz you've you've destroyed a number of iphone 4s but dining room no no yes there was apartment or 11 feet tall Lauren I have both we both broken um but my brother broke the back of his iphone 4 I mean I know a ton of people who had the back broken on their iPhone 4 yeah I think there's a reason they have a metal back yeah all right um I'm just checking out the comments on the loom how do I already hit a few how bad are they right now I will tell you the one I just hid involved in fall of calling dieter a wimp for saying the phone was big when Jessica Alba has one I was just really nice una so i deleted that one cuz that distal sense you know jessica i was paid to carry the phone well I what I just wanna say is what wait what are you very attractive to it's what I just want say is what I just want to say is um everybody is so sure it's the best fun ever who's never touched it or used it right and and that seems unusual to me and you know Tom seemed to Tom seemed seems to believe that there's actual astroturfing going on and I know I'm not accuse anybody but there are definitely comments on these Leumi yeah posts that seemed out of out of the ordinary for the types of comments we get uh so well you know microsoft's been paying me to go into the comment section as well yeah which is to raise al well his apple and so does google it's great yeah three paychecks dude uh so let's talk about some other reviews i mean we've we've talked about windows and microsoft right in these products at length you know the thing with the Lumia for me is that it's there so it's kind of fun on my way I'm sorry can I kind now you say something I actually wanna respond to something cuz people are talking about in the comments I'm sorry I did it just came out how much you don't think that we're scoring that our ecosystem scores only about apps the ecosystem scores it is not about apps it's it is predominantly a play a big part in the ecosystem score but it's also about services and there are some good services in fact the ecosystem score would be lower if Microsoft didn't have the services yes right um it because it's because the app ecosystem is is not that good on these devices but it's also about uh other products you know cases or docks or um what types of products it's compatible with it you know external hardware and so the ecosystem there's like a bunch of things that go into it apps are a big part of it but I think the people are under this impression that somehow we're like if it doesn't have 500,000 apps then it gets a low ecosystem score and apps do play a big part and when you talk to consumers and when you hear from consumers when you hear from people about the stuff they're always like what can I get this app can I get that applicants the stuff they actually care about well and especially like with with the device like I got a lot of questions about the the surface because everybody's like oh well it can connect to my printer and I was like well that's cool but I bet most people are not you know super interested in plugging on a surface into that sector I mean that is a that is it I mean be perfectly honest with you the idea that you can plug in a mouse or a USB stick or you know or or a printer is is really a like a very very small part of these devices that mean the surface you know that was one of the things that's like the surge you can plug in a printer it's like well I just don't think that's in that important to that many people right yeah and honor by the way they're a wireless printing solutions at momo's and almost every printer ships now with with Wi-Fi um so it's it's like so what you know you can plug in a mouse like that's the worst thing I've ever heard in my entire life you can plug in a board like whatever I mean you know that's what bluetooth is for you know we've just where does that's just like that that is not important to mean it's not important to most consumers at this point right yeah and that's all i can i plug in my mouth and that's why we rated the fact that there aren't any apps on RT like and yeah that's why really was a highly because there what's funny what's funny what's funny about the the surface review is that i had it been completely compatible with windows which everybody says i hate i would have probably given it i would have given it a higher score yeah they've done everything is excited about yeah right pro I'm actually I'm actually very interesting pro had it done everything that it does plus been able to run like a full suite of Windows apps I probably would've been like this actually is the thing that is gonna let you do both things rolling yeah and also tomorrow is gonna be alright uh no se the proud that this is the pros can be more expansions give me the price of a laptop and then you get into a whole category of like are you is it I might in my buying a laptop or what am i buying you know I plenty of Windows laptops are coming out with touchscreens uh so and i have to say hard to say I've been like playing with a ton of these as they start to come out and I I will never willingly buy a laptop without a touch screen again really so much better to reach others not anyway you're selling me your timing you're going that you're going to get a windows laptop for your next class I wrote I wrote this is my next windows 8 and I believe that and as soon as I find good Hardware I can't wait to get rid of this thing and get Windows 8 I can't wait so you're honest I just wanna say you're going to sell your macbook as I make sure I may throw it out the window is what I'm gonna do the battery really all I do i do want to catch it cuz this good resale value yeah that's their uh no but like there I have yet to see the perfect hardware but uh but I think like in of in a you know as it is the operating systems all right i love using a touchscreen where's the review so far i have a the best of you so far is I'm working right now actually it's the lenovo yoga uh it's really good and it's mostly a laptop but it like does these it you know it flips back to County uses tablet or you can prop it up but and it's like it's mostly a laptop which I like but it has it 69 do all kinds of other stuff yeah it's 69 yeah ferrite sun by the way I just realize is getting really dark in here yeah I need to draw in my office since it was daylight when we started ah like so long so here's the thing i wanted to say about apps in the ecosystem it's raw app count is like that's the wrong if you're going to criticize an ecosystem or for being about apps you need to understand what apps actually are to it a mobile device right there not stand like people think about apps it's like oh i'm going to download a thing and like play a game that's all it is for most people it's how their device interfaces with the world around it right right so a dropbox out isn't just a nap right it's how literally i move files from one place to another because that is connected into a larger ecosystem of dropbox right and there are hundreds of thousands of these apps for every we do our expenses in Expensify right you know what's really great is when i go out i take a cab to a meeting i just take a picture of the receipt when i'm done with Expensify and my expenses are done that's not just an app for me right that's a connection into a deeper ecosystem of the service and those apps are available for some platforms are not available for others and that mean that set of connections through apps into other broader products and services is critically important so it's not just here's a number of apps when we're ranking it it's how useful is this device and how much more useful is it made to be by these apps that can that right that everybody's I don't there's a there's a point I wanted to ask about this and I think you guys probably enjoy better so Microsoft is making initiative like exclusive features right the Pandora stuff to facebook stuff that's not going to get updated though then like that's not going to follow one to one with any like Facebook updates adoration there's a risk of that when they're trying to make exclusive features for their apps right I will say I will say that it is it is I think you're you're a hundred percent right at that point Neil I about you know it's not just about the count but it's it's the quality and it's what they do and it's how they interact with the rest of the ecosystem and and you know I like in some way like I give Android more points in that department the interaction and oh yeah no I think absolutely right where where you get where you get you know look for me it's so easy to say something to pocket the way you the way Android allows developers to plug into their sharing and so I think that's like a big advantage and you know and I think also you know I think we had this problem for a long time with Android where we were saying like God the quality of apps is like yeah you've got apps but they're garbage right and there's still a lot of garbage but it's gotten a way way better over the past like I'd say two years uh and you know windows phone still definitely suffers from having let's say you've got I don't know what the number is now but a lot of those apps are they're very bad they're not good ya feel like they feel they feel amateur they feel like my first app developer and particularly weird is that Microsoft doesn't do any policing in the store so if you need you search for a legitimate app you will find a lot of results are there a basic counterfeit right there are other developers noticing a demand for a popular app another platform and saying here's my weird counterfeit version and yes we are stealing a dollar from people and that's like microsoft needs to get on right mean that's the you can test tell the world over and over and over again that this isn't about apps it's not about add count it's about live tiles it's about you know seamless sharing all this stuff but when people want to go extend the use of their device they go in the app store and it's basically full of thieves but you've got a problem janna and I and I think there's also this thing you know just not related but somewhat related which is the you know microsoft's i mean the reason the reason i have trouble saying like you'll get a Lumia go get an a tax right now is because Microsoft has this you know the premise is like what what would make you get this phone over an iphone or an android phone and they kind of have this thing where it's like the live tiles are better and they're kind of designed for you know your life and they'll help you do things faster and our people thing you know our people app is integrated and you've got you know it merges your contact you've got this integrated chat with your SMS messages like that something's all really truly they do have some good really thoughtful ways of dealing with with data but none of it is the kind of stuff and I always said this about webos it was like what's webos what's the webos um message to consumers that it's going to be better for you you know I actually feel like right now but rim has a similar problem but they're going to be able to say like look we're blackberry we're being it's the most secure it's built for business blah blah blah like they actually have some a little bit of a story the Microsoft story is just not it's not so compelling on points where people are enraged right like I'm not enraged about a lack of live tiles on iOS 6 like I think iOS 6 is desperately in need of some innovation I think it needs some widgets or something like a live tile there I think it needs to be able to show people more information more quickly and in an easier way and frankly in a nicer looking way but I'm not like how dare they how can't live like this you know and I don't think most consumers feel that way either thing most consumers are like yeah that's a nice to have but I'm okay with it right now and I think you have to give them a compelling you know I can tell you there are compelling reasons why you would choose Android over iOS I mean the pocket one is a great example it's like yeah it's easier to get things done that you need to get done if you're a gmail user I can say if you use gmail this is a better experience right it's tough for me I mean even when if you're an Outlook user I don't believe that the experience in in mail on a Windows Phone device is dramatically different or better than an experience on iOS like in terms of mail right so so it's not like they're saying like we've got this incredible mail experience that's second to none for Outlook users they've got a good male experience but you know Apple has a pretty good mail experience and Android has a pretty good mail experience so it's like they've got to find a way to say to consumers and that's where I'm talking where I'm talking about stuff like halo and they started do with I will say the integration with music and stuff but it's like you got to you got to convince people this platform will offer them something and and down the road will offer them something that they're not getting somewhere else right now like you can't say unfortunately and this is true if consumers say you say we can't get instagram on it there are a lot of people there are a lot of young new buyers of phones that will say well i don't want that i want Instagram you know and that's that's like the harsh reality so so it's tough it's like on the one hand you don't have like the really compelling element I mean and then you've got a lack of other elements so it becomes a tough recommendation at least from me so let's move on we actually had two other big reviews happen this week Josh interviewed the ipad the ipad mini yes the ipad min and I i we just published my review of the retina macbook pro 13-inch today can I kindest blaze through talking about the ipad mini cuz ya been discussing then we'll talk about the retina cuz i haven't actually i haven't even read your review um all the way through thanks i skimmed i skim did and and then i read the conclusion i left a comment uh you saw my resin know i read the number score understand a little more um I feel and that was it yeah where's the videos what I wish okay um um just really quickly the ipad mini i think it's it's a in this class it's theirs it's second to none you know I've been a nexus 7 user and I really really have liked it and it's almost like with like a little bit of sadness that when i started using the ipad mini it like occurred to me that i would kind of don't have a compelling reason to pick up the nexus 7 now uh you know in terms of reading I'm reading on kindle just kindle app it works the same if not better on the ipad mini obviously app selection is just astronomically better on the ipad mini it's compatible with my apple TV like there's no there's no TV element for for the nexus 7 something that's really bothered me we're like I'm sitting front of the TV and I want to I want to either control something you know they control like I can control my apple TV and find stuff to watch or I can send stuff over using airplay which I do a lot and surprise surprise in the mount and uh so I was kind of sad sad that like I realized that the iPad Mini has obviated the need for the nexus 7 for me uh you're saying that agnostic as a price tag though like that's doesn't know I mean I and I say my review like I don't think these things are in the same I don't think that I don't think they're in the same price group at all I mean I think there's two hundred dollars and 329 is a big difference on the other hand if I were going if I needed a 7-inch tablet if I felt like that was the tablet the size i wanted i would strongly consider trying to save up the extra hundred and thirty bucks because it's the difference between a really really great well established well fed tablet ecosystem and one that is extremely lacking i think still yeah i mean i'll say there was seven inch on the 7-inch you can get away you can get away with some apps that are that are made for phones and they're okay you go up any higher than that and it's not good and there's also just like a kind of a just not a lot of apps that are taking advantage of that of that form factor right the other hand the ipad is has incredible apps I mean to me it's like then we're watching the clip from the review right now and it just showed GarageBand and like using GarageBand on a tablet like every time I do it still just blows my mind on the ipod and it's great on the other it's a crazy it's really and there's nothing like it's a really yeah and I and I and I and I asked the Android guys about it you know about why they didn't have a compelling app like that or there's a lot of compelling apps they get out they don't have yeah that would be a great example I was using an Android tablet um you know it's it's it's a larger android tablet i downloaded an app it's the game another world you know the game another world yeah the old amiga game think was originally for the amiga uh anyhow I oh this would be cool to play on a tablet this is great because it's not like super high action but it's like sort of you know it would be a good any I loaded it up on this tablet and it is literally like a box on the screen I'm not even kidding and and and it's like it's like not you know formatted for I mean it's just like that's all for Android still to get you not even that you don't have apps that are made for the tablet you don't have apps that will scale up properly in some places um and you know that's that's their Achilles heel and tablets right now right so talk about yeah the screen on the mini cuz that's I have one coming tomorrow I bet yeah yeah the screen the screen is this is this is what I'll say if you've seen retina display as you're going to look at and say this disappoints me if you have been using a nexus 7 or a kindle fire HD you're going to say yeah there's a noticeable difference I've been reading with it every night since I started reviewing it and it it really doesn't bother me I mean it's it's it's clearly a lower resolution display well now that's a trade-off you make and it's one of its one of very few trade-offs you make and I don't think that it's I mean at the end of the day it is what it is you know I mean it's a low resolution display and if I thought that that the only deciding factor was high how high resolution a display is I would tell you the nook HD is the best 7-inch tablet on the market yeah I think we know and I think we know that isn't true yep yeah Oh ask you so so yeah your age it's noticeable yeah I got uh kindle paperwhite or ipad mini I really right for me four million type ad for me at ipad mini because uh I actually prefer the uniformity the complete uniformity of an LCD display for reading my eyes have now for whatever reason seemed to have adjusted to that and I prefer it when I read and additionally you get it's an iPad I mean this is like you don't need the 10 inch iPad like that's what's so compelling about this to me it's like I have a 13-inch macbook air I have a Galaxy Nexus as the phone i've been using and i have an ipad right but the ipad feels big and bulky and I don't try I don't like traveling we think is it so huge and that's why I've actually been really enjoying the Nexus 7 is that it's the right it feels like the right in between it's the right in between size right right and what's so interesting to me and what's so exciting to me is that now that in between size is occupied not buy a tablet that I wish at x y&z but a tattle that has all of the things that I want to tablet to have like the one thing that's missing is a guy I had native gmail and native chrome give the gmail app it's pretty good it's okay it's it's actually quite terrible it's not okay I've no no no it's bad guy let me let me know ha sorry I'm gonna go on record the gmail app for iOS is gar it is garbage cochin anybody who thinks it's good i actually said it's okay but I take that back as it isn't okay it's garden I'd rather use the the native mail you are crazy no that's no I'm really disagree I completely wash no it's garbage you guys are you guys are high and drunk I mean you're living in an age it's better it's better than using that better than it's better than what then nothing is way better than the Iowa I guess if I I guess if I were starving if I were a starving man and you came and you said well here's a rotten piece of fruit he did I would eat it because I would be better than not the dying of starvation but I certainly wouldn't enjoy it no it's better now you are crazy I don't know whether it's done it's not better than males like a dude that's the only thing is you board the keyboard pops up and it's all like it's all rickety and weird when you start typing I disagree i actually think it's a really big it's got like some it's like trying to like html5 up my contacts seriously I think you're you're you're you're tripping Josh to geology keyboard is rickety did you the keyboard is just that it's like it's like shhh yeah that's that thing it doesn't think where you're typing it stops and it good and it like put your I'm sorry see you you know the true can search your hearts haha no no way you know what I think I think the nails are short is and I penny is like the best combination in the world because I just got this and then there's no news is my anything else this is this is what this is what I'm saying to you listen to me this is what I'm saying it now is the perfect it's like it's like I'm not gonna get an ipod touch and I want to have an iPad okay uh I won't have a tablet I mean I'm not gonna get iPod option i wanna have a tablet i want the tablet do everything i want a tablet to do i don't want a big bulky tablet I don't want to have basically another computer with me and uh so now it's like you don't need an ipod touch or an iphone if you've got the ipad mini that's my feeling it's like if you have an android phone get an ipad mini and then it's like you want to have all those Wes has boom you have access to them because the vast majority the one you're gonna use or fri pad NE a-- and then uh and then you've got your computer this is me at least and your end the phone the phone of choice that is good for you know for me like getting getting work done and i think it's a perfect combination because i don't want to work necessarily on my this is not by the way this is not for people who are like I'm replacing my computer with my tablet okay yeah I don't think it's that kind of tablet I think this is a tablet you have in addition to a computer I don't think it's a tablet you have as your only computing device I don't think any tablet is that um no I mean some people get the ipad the 3rd gen or the 4th gen it's got a super high res display it fast it like can do all the basic things you need to do email uh you know web browsing you can you know manage photos on at blah blah blah or whatever people do with their computers e chat with people on it or so I'm told you Twitter you know that's something that kids are doing but I mean I think so that I think this is actually the most interesting piece of where Apple's ended up with tablets is they are now they're all over that they were all over the laptop replacement game right which is what Microsoft is trying to do yeah right and that but what's different is Microsoft is saying is we're going to reinvent laptops and the surface is very much a particular surface pro a reinvented laptop right and yeah it's a windows a pc that happens to have a weird form factor and then the RT thing has to grow into this there's a breed of its own it is its infant it has to get there google has basically been putting at these like consumption devices these reading devices i think that's very much for the Nexus 7 is to me and has this great potential to do more to take over some of those laptop roles but really what it's good for is like reading a bunch of stuff and apples that move the iPad into that game as well so they're now covered thee do you want a new pc could you get an ipad I you know instead which I think a lot of people are actually still interested in or do you want to tablet in addition your pc and you want something inexpensive that can do a bunch of cool stuff and they're definitely like moving into that game and that's like that's that's playing both sides this coin of what tablets are going to be now I'm very like disappointed it doesn't have a higher resolution display eh but I just don't know if people are going to care I said I mean I got to me usable just point to I i think that i think the super high res display is not um I mean it would be awesome if it had it and no one's denying I it's not a knock I mean it's not not enough because it is a knock like I knock it you know like I knock the display for not happy it say knock again it's the I it's knocked it got not there's no question um but uh but it's also like you have to balance that you know with the price with the size with the way it's built with all the other stuff it does with you know how good the speakers sound and how good is it running all those apps and how good it is it you know connect into your Apple TV or for that matter lots of other things that it can connect to rob and so heres in this goes right into now the laptop yes i have had this 13-inch retina display laptop and I'm back to my 15 inch pro which has that the higher resolution screen and I don't miss it at all like i don't i don't think man i wish i was looking a red and display whereas when i go and look at like an older iphone or / ipad we an ipad to you here I'm like this is bad I don't know I think and I think think there's a I think it's because you're dealing with an economy of space and you need clarity in that space I mean I think with an iphone in particular with phones I think that we really hit a place honestly I don't have a problem with current resolution of devices if this were the next two or three generations of 1280 displays or whatever they are the iphone has 11 36 x 96 whatever the 640 whatever the hell the thing is um i would be fine i'm fine with that because i think it's read we reach a threshold where like I really can't perceive pixels I have to really work hard and like it to me it's like showing enough content enough data at once like on a screen of that size I think the ipad i actually thought that I mean I think the retina display looks amazing but do I think it needs it to be operational to function the way I wanted to function i think the 1366 x 768 nexus 7 looks really good too it's lower pixel density than the the retina display this is i think any lower than what the iPad Mini is doing at that screen size I think that screen that resolution at the ipad 2 screens eyes now seems like really bad to me right like it seems Wow like this is a really kind of noticeable difference I think with a look you save a little bit in pixel density when you go smaller um it helps I think you know the next generations obviously going to be higher res if it's not it'll just seem silly rah but I don't think for most consumers and not for me I mean look I'm a guy who has to review this stuff for a living who really cares and using it day in day out yes it was noticeable um but it was also like man this thing's awesome I that was my feel know in all honesty with it was like it's so it's like the right size it just felt really portable I found myself wanting doubt have it around like I would keep it next to my computer or I through it you know I'd take it downstairs when I went down or a figure I was going out I would grab and throw in my bag and it felt like this thing that was like a companion it was a companion device like my phone does but a different kind of companion device it's like oh I need to go a little bit I need to get into a larger environment I need to do something to look a little bit more hands-on here or I want to do something it's like a little more of a Leanback experience it was it you know it's great like i was playing letterpress on it with Laura and and playing like punch quest which is a game that I because I haven't been using iOS devices that often lately I didn't even know it exists it oh my oh man punch quest yeah I'm all over this thing and then I found out that it's not making any money and I feel very depressed well in app purchases then but in a dollar I'm something I had no idea had an app purchases that's news to me yeah that's right wow that goes right so this all goes into the laptop because I think it's very clear that these the smaller devices they benefit greatly from the higher resolution screens and it's very interesting to hear you say the using one that doesn't have one is you know there's a balance to portability and kind of the feel to it that you know makes up for the screen because what I felt from the laptop which is you know very nice laptop but tremendously expensive seventeen hundred dollars for this laptop with retina is that it's slow and the overall utility I get from that screen is not there because you know I'm used to working on a laptop and so working on a display that only gives you a usable effective resolution of 1280 by 800 is not useful when you're used to again but they'd line just to write yeah 15 ish on top of a high high res display yeah but you know MacBook Airs have 1440 x 900 like Josh would you settle for less space than your air no higher resolution no no I don't think I don't think most people want to make that trade-off I'm gonna change mine at 1280 by 800 right now and we're gonna see how it sits teeny tiny um and what's very strange to me is that the processor in the pro doesn't do as good a job of driving that display as the processor in what little time we've seen with the nexus 10 I which has the same resolution display as the processor in the ipad which has you know a slightly lower resolution display but still very high and it's it's curious to me that the Intel side of the you know the x86 side of the game can't do what arm is doing to drive these insanely high resolution displays I mean you're never going to win in a laptop review or any device review if you ship us device and I open Chrome and I try to scroll the verge and it did starters oh yeah that's well I think that's the end of that's the many downloads are I mean I I personally think um I guess I don't know I mean for a laptop I just don't sense I don't get a sense when I look at my laptop display that I need more pixels to show things smoother but I actually what I actually want is more room for things yeah you know an apple has gone at the retina display with our first job is to make things look smoother and then our second job is if you want it and I think it puts a real strain on the cpu to do it is to show is it actually utilize more pixels yeah full encanta on it he can't run it at 121 so you can't run it i think 2560 by 1600 because my invitin my impression is and this is actually my impression of and i think there's some technical data to back this up that one of the reasons that the ipad went to double or you know quadruple the pixels is that it is that for a is that it is a less processor-intensive scale scale up to go to like to and not to like to do a a double yeah you know to double it as instead of like doing like it's a third bigger or whatever you know like I think that requires more computational power then I think that on on the on the laptop you're getting the and by the way I'm not an expert but that's my understanding having read a few articles on it and the laptop i think is just trying to push a lot more pixels if you go to that mode which is the mode that i want where it's like I can see more stuff on screen like I want to see more lines of email I want to see an extra row of icons I want to see extra row of apps look is that a genetic we got for you here check this out I got an idea why don't you get me a notification does it pop up over my back bud like that good add you know what ya lookin to uh some the other big news that happen this week oh yeah I got it look I got it I got a review to finish we gotta wrap this up okay I mean not right now what's the other news you might talk about we could briefly go through then like in like 15 minutes alright 15 minutes we went to boss Scott Forstall invested all right yes all right Neal I know if you I'll have to say about this if you're just catching up Scott Forstall the iOS head is gone oh yeah it's like he was forced out orla it's not gone Oh use aside one year advisory leave with 40 million dollars and no one was to hear what he says you make it sound like he just like disappeared on the left why did so there's been a lot of reporting out about this now from New York Times Wall Street Journal and then we have you know we've done a little bit as well and we've you know we obviously we hear about what's happening it really sounds like the reason that he left was not maps alone and the reason that Scott four Sol's means leave was that he refused to sign the letter that Apple was made to put out apologizing for how bad naps and I was six work and he demanded or he refused basically the sybaris Lee refused to sign this letter and said made demand the Tim Cook do it and I think that was that was the opening for him to leave but there was a lot of you know that they're you as a divisive figure you know I think he was there were they found a way a reason to pull the trigger and sort of yes a catalyst not I causes it yeah I think that was a thing that was a kind of well is that a well-known or well rumored fact that he had that he was he could be a poll you know I think he was an acolyte of jobs I think that you guys can hear me okay right yep and I think that he may be copied some of his management style but you know it takes a really specific special kind of person to take jobs as management's Island make it work and I think that it can rub you know as I've tried to many many times at the verge I cried when I would couldn't get my way I've screamed at people for being and then the next day complement them on me and geniuses and it has not gone that well it's not gone that well you guys takes a very specific kind of guy and I think if you if you're not that guy it's going to be it's it's a tough kind of a tough gig what I what I want to talk about though is this this Johnny I've thing which is they had a bunch of they had a bunch of shuffles but the most interesting one is that they said they were putting Johnny I've in charge of the human interface design and to me and I don't know if this is just a I don't know if it's a role that's just like he is a name and he's gonna have a bunch of other engineers they're gonna work under him or what the what the how this is going to work but what I will say is I think that Jony ive has a very different design sensibility than scott forstall hat Ryan Recker talk minimalism versus ski morphic design John yeah I man and i think i and i think that the idea and I think when you see what some designers have done some developers have done in iOS with some of them really minimal beautiful design you can do when you've got a screen like that and a platform like that you can kind of do whatever you want like the it kind of excites me to think of Johnny I've looking at the software and going like what can we how can we fix this or how can we alter this how can we improve this because I mean no matter uh no matter what you think about Apple I mean I don't know I don't care who you are where you came from what your name is or what color your hair is or if you like to wear flip-flops or if you wear sneakers you can't deny that Jony Ive's hardware design his design sensibility about hardware is incredible its unmatched i would say in the industry and so that tells me that he that he has some pretty good ideas about how to make things beautiful and make them function well at least for hard ah dustrial design I mean that doesn't it but that's I feel like there's this this idea that like oh that's just hard we're trying and somehow that wouldn't apply there'd be no there's been there be no application of that and software and i think like--look you either know if something looks like rapper or it doesn't right i think he'd at least be able to say if like for all we know scott forstall every time Johnny I've got in the room and try to make a comment about a knob or something you know or like a leather stitch Scott Forstall was like get get out of here this is my domain you have no right to be you know I mean we don't know we really don't know right but and so like and it so it's very possible Jonny I may be like yeah this is what I've always wanted to do is you know let's take it let's get rid of this brushed this brushed metal slider and turned it into like a flat minimal design design you looking so I don't know I'm just saying I'm excited about the possibility but question is when do we start seeing that like is it going to be me dealers version next version of iOS will probably completely revamped 6.1 will probably look about in the depression you know yes amazing helmet how amazing would it be a six point 0 0 1 0 1 a did it this is a completely different it's actually just Android that's great well I was gonna say like I wouldn't be so I wouldn't be surprised if we see some Android engineers and designers get poached here um yeah cuz i don't know i look at andrew and i think like this is where Apple should be on some of this stuff I actually look the windows phone and think this is where Apple should be on some of this stuff you know where it's like it's high-minded design but it's also functional um you know I think that the gesture stuff that that I mean you guys haven't seen it yet but the but the stuff in the camera in the new version of Android is like yeah how could it have possibly taken this long for somebody to come up with this concept I know the menus wherever you put your thumb and you can access it all with a thumb and you don't have to tap tap and close a bunch of like settings windows you saw the hint of that when the ipad originally you put your finger down you get a small menu system and they never went anywhere with it an android kind of realized it with that's right they had the contextual menus I remember talking about it we were like this is a step in the right direction it never happened nothing ever materialized from it beyond that um ya know well that was before Android had any unified like vision you know that was that was pre that was pre Android actually looking good yeah and desirable like a year and a half ago yeah so no I know he's right though the Gala's the galaxy galaxy nexus is it was a turning point I actually said that my feature right it was a turning point for them there's when Matthias I things were matias duarte like actually stepped in there and said we need to do better software design I mean he's obviously got I mean he has a lot to do with hardware and but I think that his influence has been big on the overall look and feel um and uh and so I think that uh anyhow but no you're right it is a year and a half I'm een is it was a year ago really when did ICS come out and this is by the way the most frustrating thing about android he's like ICS he's a really beautiful elegant operating system jelly being improved upon it and the newer version is gonna you know improve upon that and like no devices happened yep no two users will ever experience it you know laura has an HTC phone she's been using I keep like telling her about the things in ICS are in jellybean that like she would like better than what she has to deal with and what does it matter you can't get and i think android i think by the way there's LTE thing not to go back to android but this thing with LTE and not being able to get a device on the on the fastest networks in America that is competitive our device its competitive with the iphone or the Lumia or the HTC the 8x I think says something very very uh worrisome and troubling about Android and I think that you can have the most look you know I made a joke about virgin america becoming the Betamax of airlines because like it's like they do a really good but nobody flies them um but I think that Android is is is in danger of being the Betamax in the way that webos was at one point and it was the beta of of smartphone OS is like you got great gestures and really good design but you couldn't pull it off for one reason or another now I androids like who cares when you have TouchWiz on your device who cares how good your stuff is its operating system versus platforming the underlying Android is going to be they're going to be everywhere and they can try to influence with these flagship design elements but they're always the right meriden oh I mean that's what that's what that's what that's what's kind of annoying is that we talked to Andy Rubin we talked to Matthias and they were like we're setting you know we're setting the table here for our partners right we're showing what can be done and it's like you're showing what can be done if your partner's give a crap but they don't they really don't they would prefer to get rid of your stuff all together and just have you know like a samsung world well and I think that's actually really important we are now at an inflection point I think particularly for HTC where it may be not profitable for them to try and compete with Samsung to be the Android vendor and to spend the money on drew Bamford and skinning Android in the sense and it might be better for them to make windows phones and to take the money for Microsoft that you know is clearly coming their way and try to build that ecosystem instead because i'll have more ownership and more control and more kind of direct support from their software vendor right i think i think it's it's that way for a lot of companies now because of how dominant samsung is but i think it's particularly HTC which has been losing money you know over and over and over again every quarter trying to compete with Samsung and just they can't find a formula to be successful I mean does it is I guess it just proves at the end of the day that people don't really care that much about operating systems right now I mean people are buying phones because like they think that the somebody's had a really well thought out way to do something in an OS you're buying phones cuz they because they want to Instagram and you the Samsung point super interesting because i remember i think it's the Windows Phone of it like they're playing at theta X are playing at Lumia 920 Samsung was there without being there like right they didn't even show a picture the achieve bomber says it's you know we don't have it but you know it sobs gonna be a big deal Samsung is hard enough that we can be at Microsoft and like be bigger than Microsoft at their own game like they're launching on what are you talking about in it and yet the chicken two big brands right no key an HTC there the halo devices the flagship devices Microsoft enforced these colors on them right they all have to be bright yellow and blue and purple or whatever I think they look great the achieve is like here's a piece of Samsung junk and it's great plastic uh you know and it's it's very much like here's like what say and i only say that because the focus was such a bad phone right it feels like the samsung is doing the same thing to microsoft again where it's like we are capable of producing this uh and here you go your here's here's what your platform gets and i know even working with HTC in nokia on these colorful polycarbonate shells and making a hardware stand out uh but here's the achieve s and it's grey plastic it's like that's what that's what Samsung has become I think they are they're bigger than Android in a very important way and they're they're definitely bigger than Windows Phone and Microsoft in a way that I think opens the door for nokia in HTC and you can't you know you we always ask why nokia didn't pick android and put android on the amazing hardware disabled abuse I think that's why I think I don't think they saw a world in which they wanted to go head-to-head against Samsung and Samsung's ability to in you know willingness to produce things to carry your spec right I didn't know if you wanted to produce its own products i think that's this is like the inflection point i think for android and for windows from a new windows phone ecosystem to say here's a nexus 4 we can't get it on carriers here's what our partners have to do here's the biggest brands in the world have to do they have to put a verizon logo on the home button for the galaxy note 2 because that's what verizon what's the Samsung is willing to do it and all these other vendors have to decide what kind of company they want to be in it it's it's it's a major inflection so then does does android just become Samsung's platform and then everybody else goes and competes on Windows Phone 8 because it seems like to me it's it's going to be really hard to compete on Windows Phone 8 because all you can do is differentiate hardware right like the software down same well I mean I don't think we know I don't think we know because no one's buying the phones they're right you know I don't think we don't know I don't think we know what competition looks like because you have to have a base of people that are going out and having to choose when with what's happening is like instead of choosing one of those windows phone devices they're choosing Android or iOS most that time but I we know exactly what Microsoft wants it to look like they wanted to look like the pc market look for years and years yeah they've been at the software the vendors buy it they add some crap where they ship the devices well but but actually that may be other soft money hand over fist and they all need the martyr they did but the difference is that unlike on PCs they're not reskinning or customizing or adding weird menus and stuff like this is like they're adding software you can open it or not you can also uninstall one of the things that's amazing about the Lumia then I was just when I first got it out of the box is yeah there's a bunch of crap on here for the day team he put on I'm just gonna uninstall it it's gone you know um and that you can't do that on the on the samsung phone on the android device yeah not that i don't think users care you know they don't really care they care about you know their k they care about ass they care about um whether it has LTE those are the things that are born I people not really I mean I I think it's sad it's like it's like it's like all what where is all of this great design and Android going what do you ask when you were there did you ask about motorola do they even want to talk about it um they didn't really want to talk about i mean i made jokes about motorola but it was all very like like I was like well you got motorola than everybody would laugh and then they would say you know it was this anything about the queue every time I try to bring up the you it was like um uncomfortable like an uncomfortable few seconds and then we they somebody would change the topic yeah so yeah I mean what are they gonna do with Motorola I don't know um verizon isn't gonna let them do what they want with Motorola that's clear they just released a bunch of new Motorola phones with horrible blow where it grows graphics and disgusting screens it's also clear that Google itself can't get enough leverage in this relationship either which is bizarre to me yeah i mean verizon I don't understand Verizon's driving everything like Verizon Verizon jam song good not appareled any less about I mean windows phone I mean the idea really steered you the ideal situation would be I think the ideal situation is this um 18t has had this head start with with with apple and the iphone and i think they continue to lean on that for their dominance in the market you know verizon had you know really verizon really hit success with smart modern smartphones when it started doing droids yep and they've leaned into that for success and now they have droids and iphones so that's great you know what we need is better competition what we need is another I mean t-mobile actually has the right idea they're releasing their selling the nexus 4 it's an unlocked device on their higher speed well presumably higher speed HSPA network but they don't have that they're not competing here on on LT I mean if I thought if I thought t-mobile was it was a viable alternative to an LT to an LTE device on 18 to your verizon I would absolutely go get one but my my t-mobile download speeds in my house are slower than HSPA on AT&T so yeah that doesn't help me it doesn't help a lot of people we need we need that we need a third open LTE network that covers all of America sprint that will about it in them to get on that world on that capitalist know you love open things I mean what we actually need is for somebody to regulate the hell out of this and just say like socialist just people are gonna make devices you're gonna sell bit your bandwidth and your services and that's that right yeah I have to say it was cool to see that was it AT&T and t-mobile that were sharing networks in New York yeah for Sadie because they the GSM hspa+ standards I thought that was cool else they're gonna stop and go back to brutally hating each other but I thought was cool pretty I'm no biggie i don't hate each other they wanted to love each other well then why is it on each other now he justed i think we need to wrap up because i really have to get to writing you got bidness yeah we kiss ya gotta take care of any any uh first first birthday reminisces or wishes we want to talk about i think one of our first world you let save us look at a party for national eaccess and when Paul's are at yeah yeah what's good idea okay well balls out shooting a future stuff so well I'm a little birthday party next week and you know we can't Paul we cannot Paul talked about his six months off the internet that's right his section of interest like last week I think it's our first actual I think it's today Oh was it I think so interesting yeah I think it was cause you watch May first you're right yes maybe he was just telling me about it last week mmm yeah mmm crazy thing all right I'm hanging up all right for our youths are weak are you gonna take your wrap up I take its own that's the that's the verge cast for this in hurricane Couric assed hura cast of birth birth cast quasi earth cast anyhow we of course you can get in touch with us if you want you can email us at verge cast at the verge com you can leave a comment on the on the post when it goes up we love your comments they're always so pleasant and and you can also find us on Twitter the verge is act verge I'm Joshua Topolsky Neil I his reckless Ross's oh no Rosco no e on the end and David Pierce's Pierce David which no one will ever done to me okay that's fine and and that's uh so that's the show for this week we'll be back next week to I guess Paul will be on and we're gonna actually really talk about our first year in existence and until then I I would not if I were you I would not leave any of your doors or windows unlock this weekend because it could cause a horrible danger to your family because josh will find you and kill you I don't here we go now just threatening be in distress and as always I wish I wish for you and your family the very best this weekend wow that was also terrifying idea rocket oh yeah I think we got yes Paul Oh