all being there was Paul and Paul is not
here we try can I drag in Paul he this
breaks his uh his Terms of Service
something I can't get on him oops
sucks to be Paul today anyhow this is
the verge cavalry discuss the week in
technology culture and culture culture
and called the culture club my favorite
band from the 80s yeah yes that was the
song that the Culture Club performed
okay come and go Josh you come and go
that's I really do anyhow we are we're
back we've had some we've had a few
weeks where where I've been off not
working or trying to not work as I go
for you it's going great here I am not
working oh it's good I was taking a
little bit trying to get a little bit of
rest before the CES insanity started and
everybody's been away for the holidays
so anyhow but we're back to talk about
what's been happening and there has been
some news you know even though it's been
the holiday there's been news even
though we haven't been around to report
it basically which I you know the news
happens even if we're not yeah online on
the internet it's very disappointing you
know news and I had a tight relationship
I thought you guys were caught you guys
were just exclusive news it just does
its own thing so Hornet so I want to get
into I want to talk about this really
quickly this is something that's near
and dear to my heart so there's been a
lot of Instagram today there's been
Instagram news there's been a lot of
insanity and and craziness about these
Instagram Terms of Service there's like
a spot of light that just like right in
the middle of my face anyhow uh so I
opened up my my Us Weekly's this week
which I always do and this is the Miss
is the first page of Us Weekly it's
Kim's Instagram outrage this is on their
hot Hollywood page literally page page
one of us and this is all about how how
Kim Kardashian let me let me read you
exactly it was a shock shocking turn
around December 18th when just moments
after showing off her new clip on bangs
Kardashian 32 threatened to quit the
photo sharing app her issue new terms
announced December 17th that would allow
Instagram to sell user photos without
asking or pain
yeah I really love to Instagram
Kardashian tweeted I need to review this
new policy
I don't think wow she got her lawyers
right on the case then then she
immediately went to the verge comm where
she read Neil eyes brutal takedown of
the thud of the antenna I mean I have to
say this is maybe the dumbest story that
has ever occurred in my career as a tech
reporter really dumber dumber than the
story about Randi Zuckerberg yelling at
Kelly Schweitzer on Twitter about repost
in her facebook photo number the number
one non story of 2012 I mean Dan Lyons
wrote an editorial about it man that's
how big that story was sorry I don't
need to get sidetracked
now I understand no we should talk about
that too I mean I think that's hilarious
but this one was was was true the layers
of misunderstanding here that the the
the the ferocity in which we wanted the
world wanted to discuss the implications
of something that had not happened word
I mean it was just astounding I mean
it's a nightmare
ya have to grab debacle is a most
important thing that's happened do you
want you want to go through you want me
to go through it real fast
could you I'm just trying to identify
where this light is coming from this
there's like a just a small all right so
why he investigates that let's try to
where is this light originating yes
small dot of light all right go ahead
I'll see it now do you see it's annoying
right it's like I don't know where I
wish I understood how light works Wow
that is gross whatever you're doing now
is it's truly macro on your hands yeah
you like that oh that reminds me I'm
supposed to that reminds you yeah I just
turned off the what so here so I mean
here's the you know I turned off both
know you've got your I turned I turned
something else on I see very nice God so
pro so profession yep great stuff thanks
for us so look here's the basic
situation the the old Instagram terms
let's see I'm trying to find the exact
language the old Instagram
terms said they could add to delete from
modify use modify delete from add to
publicly perform publicly display
reproduce and translate your photos and
distribute them through any media
formats through any media channels
that's the you know however millions of
people have signed up for instance at
CEO that's the original term but those
are the original terms ma and then the
next line said Instagram a place
advertising oceans on about or in
conjunction with your content and that
content was broadly defined to mean your
photos your musical works sound
recording anything that Instagram
Instagram ever touched from you they got
this incredibly broad license to
wherever they wanted with that was the
old one the new one was written in a
much more friendly and direct way and
said we have a license to use your
photos we take a sub license you have to
they use the word sub license there's a
former legal word but like YouTube and
Twitter use it because that's how you
run your API and then it they have a
license and the the part over you got
all mad about was the sentence you agree
that we can display your work in
connection with promoted content without
compensate me I can actually read it you
agree that a business may pay Instagram
to display your photos in connection
with paid or sponsored content or
promotions without compensation to you
which was almost immediately
inaccurately interpreted to mean
Instagram can sell your focus to now
rage I would describe I mean I just the
the depth of wrong there is like
shocking - well no I want our separate
havens I do know that's legally wrong
interpretation but to a layperson who's
going to read them we have to accept
that people do occasionally retention
services now no that's fine so I think
you know the mistakes yard yeah I don't
know so I think there is the mistake of
instagrams lawyers to use words that
like are other words in their legal
context without any notion of telling
you what they are and there's Instagram
fail of them saying here's the kind of
advertising we're going to do here are
the specific things we're going to do
with ads and here we change
select what we're going to do instead
they just change their Terms of Service
said we're gonna share data with
Facebook now and that's why we change
the Terms of Service and see net why
don't you go ahead and freak out about
this this change in the terms so that's
like a huge fail and instagrams part but
the so the the metaphor and copyright
law for things you can do so when you
take a photo you get you get the
immediate copyright to it's
automatically the law right and then a
metaphor that like law professors will
use is a bundle of sticks right so your
rights are sticks and you can hand out
the sticks any way you want and one of
the most important like right that you
can give away is the right to create a
derivative work right which means I
paint to paint your stick to paint yeah
to paint your stick right I so I think a
photo I sell it to coca-cola coca-cola
uses it in had they've made they've
changed my photo in some way right and
they have to pay me to do it
Instagram never never asked for that
right they never said we have the right
to model via the thing that you need to
like print it on a billboard but that
was completely ignored so so so so
you're saying that the the that that the
main point of contention here is the
idea that Instagram that somebody that
an advertiser could take a photo from
Instagram because like somehow Instagram
could cut a deal with coca-cola for
Instagram photos and go make a billboard
of like hey look at all these people
instagramming drinking coca-cola
there's like just which is which is not
actually what was happening so not what
was happen there's no way they could do
that without talking to you they
couldn't pretty right okay so so is
there any legitimate outrage about their
rights to your photos the legitimate
outrage would be so the types of things
they could do are pretty simple right
they they're allowed to display your
photos in connection with paid content
so it's New Years Eve so coke could buy
the hashtag Nye in all the photos on
that page on Instagram you might have
the word sponsored by cool about what
about on Coca Cola's website but you can
do that already right Instagram has an
API so coca-cola can put up a box on
their website that says instagrams of
this hashtag and that you could have
done that before and but I think that's
you're saying that but you're saying
instagrams had the rights to do that
before these new Instagram had broader
rights before this is actually the thing
that like this right so done took took
their box of things they were allowed to
do and they went like this range I'm
just trying to identify that that
there's nothing in the new Terms of
Service that give them more right over
your photos or they can do more with
than in the previous terms of surface
absolutely they can do less on the right
so so Q sorry I just want to be clear
that Kim Kardashian's Instagram outrage
as documented by Us Weekly my magazine
my magazine of choice when relaxing can
we go back who is the person the bottom
loves I've been trying to figure that
out
that's that's Dixon what is in a Mason
Dixon Mason Mason Disick I was close I
liked it better as makes it debated
Jackson that's actually where they
should have named them mason-dixon
dishes Eddie yeah and then Betty White
is in the other corner and then Kanye
West is in is in the upper right left
hand any other point is Kim's outrage
was over fight it was over complete
far-out rages over the idea that this
horrible thing was happening without any
you know but this is what always happens
I mean this is the world loves Fudd we
love to be scared we'd love to hear like
though what you love to like think of
the worst I mean I just can't think of a
worse business model for Instagram then
we're gonna collect people's photos of
like whatever they're drinking at night
and sell them like you know I'm like I
can think of a worse business model like
no business model which is what they
seem to currently have but but they
don't need a business model they're
owned by Facebook right but they're but
their business model from Facebook is is
much simpler it's we're gonna pay we're
in coca-cola and Lipton and Ben and
Jerry's are already running promotions
using Instagram are going to pay us to
run promotions on Instagram and as part
of is part of paying us to run their
promotions and Instagram
you know we reserve the right to run ads
and hear your photos and that's what
they were trying to say right and they
utterly fail you know if you look at on
the promotions have already been running
so Ben and Jerry's had one where
if you hashtag to photo capture euphoria
and they picked your photo they would
run a Ben & Jerry's ad with your photo
in it in your hometown right excuse
that's like but you know the idea dies
don't use hashtags and don't say what
you're doing in your photos that's what
I would if you want to but liftin had
one where if you the the hashtag was
brisk pic which is like if you're the
hashtag in front of bris pick you know
Lipton is gonna take ya I do want to
save it I want to say that as a as a
person in the world as a human being if
you use a hashtag provided to you by a
some sort of you know consumer entity
like coca-cola if they it's like you
know hashtag Coke is it and you're using
coke is it you don't deserve to have the
right to your proper to your stuff
because you are basically doing an ad
for them that's what the hashtag is like
make no mistake about it when a company
has a hashtag it's not so you can seem
cool or participate it's so they can get
your content rounded up in their
community so that's the thing so Russell
Brandon who is one of our newest writers
Russell be random I love you he did a
great piece on what the advertisers
actually he's so crazy he'd be random
he'd be read no but he did a great piece
on what the advertisers actually want
out of Instagram and they don't want
your photos they photos are cheap in the
grand scheme of creating advertising
right you hire a photographer you get
the photo you want it exists right
what's expensive is getting people to
care about you so it's they're not
trying to round up stock photo emotions
are expensive right love love love do
cost a thing actually I have to go
that's awful
no but like so getting people that
engage their brand and use the hashtags
and care about your product and and
tweet pictures of it using Instagram
that's hard photos is easy so if you
know Russell's piece was the advertisers
are like we're not interested in the
photos at all we're interested in the
data about who's engaging with our brand
how much they're engaging with the brand
what they're doing and it's all this
like when I read it my eyes glaze over
because I don't care about advertising
right so it's funny because the the
second level of kind of dumbness here is
yeah sure maybe Instagram
your photos but does anybody want to buy
them and the answer is kind of like no
well we've all seen the touch oh we've
all seen the Taco Bell ad with the
Instagram pictures in it and I don't
have those so half of those are fake the
majority of them I think are actually
fake and then the other prizes
it doesn't surprise me that their act
that the photos are staged like that's
right idea but they used so here's the
thing so they used a handful of user
photos and those techcrunch ran a piece
on it yesterday and they used a handful
of user instagramming user photos and
then but they went to the users and paid
that right they paid them in Taco Bell
gift cards which is adorable
like I'm gonna pay you to talk about you
I guess if you're the kind of guy who
instagrams a photo of yourself eating
the Doritos yeah Taco Bell Taco pretty
right you're gonna be pretty stoked if
they're like we'll give you like ten
free Dorito tacos in this troubled
economy when the dollar keeps changing
value that talked about gift card that
Tommy that's right always gonna be worth
of rate always gonna be worth of talking
the true gold standard in America I
think that I think that uh you know I
thought that doesn't surprise me at all
first off but I think the fear is like
you look at that commercial you go oh
man what if they decide to just do that
if they could just do that you know and
I think that was the where the fear the
main fear came from and I you know look
you wrote the piece and it was pretty
clear that you know once the once the
terms were explained by somebody who
actually understood the terms it wasn't
what you thought it was but there was a
moment I felt the same way when I
started reading about the new Terms of
Service but like he was DUP but if you
look at for example take take it to
somewhere else look at Twitter yes so
Twitter has much broader terms in
Instagram right Twitter can take your
tweet they can modify your tweet they
can distribute your tweet that can
republish rebroadcast every single day
commercial organizations use Twitter
data that people submit so we embed
tweets all day long we make money by
running ads next to those tweets
no one's freaking out right when you
watch the news after a big event it's
just news anchors talking heads reading
Twitter right right that's what that's
the experience of watching CNN after the
presidential debates they're just
putting Twitter on the screen I love
that stuff nobody's paying the users for
that right I mean that's commercial
exploitation of their work and nobody
cares
yes now at crazy man 69 says I'm so
happy Obama won right just action does
that did Twitter just sell his tweet
yeah I mean that's the thing though
right like you did that happen
crazy I don't know crazy crazy and and
that is by the way my alternate Twitter
handle right and then it's in and you
know obviously the more the larger
example is YouTube where YouTube has an
insane array of rights see your content
I mean they can do anything they want
with that feel but that feels like but
but the YouTube feels like a more even
exchange in the sense that okay if I put
something on YouTube YouTube can sell
ads against that they can use it to
promote YouTube do all kinds of stuff
like that but I get an awesome streaming
awesome hosting service and a public
venue to show my videos so it's like it
feels like there's an exchange Instagram
feels very personal like and even in its
in the same way I'm not saying that
legally there's a difference I'm not
arguing that there's a legal difference
what I'm saying is to a customer to a
user of Twitter or YouTube
I see a clear direct and obvious benefit
to you know there's a trade-off I'm
getting this public broadcasting channel
and they're getting like my content
which they're gonna use in different
places I feel like it Instagram but it
doesn't seem as clear because Instagram
feels very personal
I think the difference the truth is
they're exactly the same especially now
that Instagram has like public pages I
mean the fact is like they're exactly
the same in what they do I think it's
the Association that people have with
them that makes them feel somehow like
how dare you like my Instagram is gonna
be you know putting some hashtag group
in on a coca-cola page my god how dare
you yet like if you're if you're
was instant you know was Twitter hashtag
group somewhere yeah yeah well I put it
out on Twitter like obviously that's
gonna be up right so I think that's
important but you know what I think let
me let me try to blow your mind here a
little bit there is this outrage over I
put this stuff on Instagram and now
Instagram is taking some piece of my
copyright that I never wanted to give
them and they're gonna sell it and make
money off of my stuff right and there's
this worldwide outrage kim kardashian is
mad you know it's obviously and this is
this is as big as it gets and the flip
side
Viacom sued YouTube because
are running around taking their music
videos and putting them illegally on
YouTube and they you know before VEVO
existed they weren't making any money
off of that and that was you know that's
why I common the record label saying why
is the service profiting from our work
that we paid for that we created without
any compensation now you know how it
feels guys the level of outrage in
return for that was why is why I'm so
stupid right look why don't they
understand how good this is for that
yeah it's like the the imbalance there
is is enormous and it's well one I don't
feel any sympathy for a large
corporation like they should they should
know that YouTube is good by they're the
same as human uh their people their
peoples United but on the flip side its
people only care about copyright when
it's theirs they only care about
property when it's theirs to give away
or not give away and we're very quick
online to just trample the property
rights of others right and that's like
that's what all that's the tension all
of these services face especially
because you know that this this question
that is was asked all last week why
don't people just pay for Instagram they
don't sell ads at all the revenue
potential of you know a million people
paying a dollar for Instagram is pretty
low it's a million dollars the revenue
potential of coca-cola pay us a million
dollars to run a month worth of
advertising is very high so there's no
you're never gonna get to pay for these
services it's never gonna work like that
and so the tension between how are we
gonna use our users property to make
money and the tension between what do
users want from everyone else is you
know like Facebook is valueless is
everybody stuff is private right I mean
it has no value if you can't just go see
everything on it so Facebook is always
trying to get people to share more stuff
because it enhances the value of their
service but that tramples your rights I
mean that's why Facebook is so shady all
the time because they're constantly
walking there but coming up - you're
basing of the fence of your yard and
saying how about we move this back an
inch this is this is a good segue into
the the thing that happened a few days
ago this non-story that I was joking
about right you know so a few days ago
khalasar who is who works at Vaux who
works with us it tweet 'add a photo of
Randi Zuckerberg of the Zuckerberg
family right
Christmas I don't know whatever
celebrating the holidays and to be clear
it was a totally posed photo like using
the poke they were they were trying out
the poke app for the first time or
something at the Zuckerberg home and and
Randi Zuckerberg put this on her
timeline on on Facebook and Callie was
fret is friends with her sister on
Facebook and she saw it in her time or
in her feed and was like oh this is a
really cool picture I'm gonna tweet this
now let me just stop really quickly and
say and I talked to Callie about this
and I think it's like you know everybody
has a different association with how
they use things or how they view things
on the internet I I think it's bad
etiquette personally I think it's bad
etiquette to take to take somebody's
content from one service and repost it
on another unless it's like a company or
the person is being clearly promotional
like if Dell posts a picture of a new
laptop on Facebook and we write about it
on the verge or we I tweet about it and
include the picture I feel like not a
big deal because it's a it's a the
attention was there was to be shared
else the intention was to be shared and
Callie actually explained this to me
that she did a lot of that she did it
she covered a lot of the election and
that it was very common during the
election that Obama or Romney or
somebody would post something on their
Facebook page and then all the media
would go and take that picture and
repost it on Twitter because they
weren't sharing it to Twitter they
weren't sharing the same things and so
that was her thinking like Oh Randy
posted this publicly which is how it
appeared to her and he how long story
short Randy didn't post the thing
publicly she had tagged her sister in it
and it appeared on her sister's timeline
I think this is how it worked right
because and because Callie was friends
with her sister it appeared on Callie's
timeline or Anne appeared on Callie's
feed and it appeared to be public so
Randi Zuckerberg threw a hissy fit on
Twitter and was like I don't know how
you got ahold of this how dare you
repost this but it was like really so I
was like these two these two / this
perfect storm of of like I think bad
digital etiquette on Callie's part sorry
Callie and Callie's very lovely and she
had did not intend to like make anyone
angry it to defend her first second like
it lookout it looks promotion also Randi
Zuckerberg is the former like appeal no
no I
I agree it may seem it did seem
promotional also if it seems like if
it's in a public feed if it appears to
you as a public in a public feed it's
kind of like a little bit more of a fair
game than if it were a private like
thing or just shared amongst a few
friends but but but so but then Randi
Zuckerberg reaction was like totally bad
form it's like if you're Randi
Zuckerberg like wouldn't it just be
easier to DM the person or email them
and say hey I saw you posted this
picture I didn't really want to be
public do you think you can delete it
her reaction was to go on Twitter and
start complaining about it which is I
think what set off this like I
considered the thing a total non story
it's like hey somebody made a bad
judgment call and where to put a picture
and then somebody who happens to be a
sucker Berg got mad about it and
complained about it on Twitter to me
those things are like not stories people
made it into this big like even ready
Zuckerberg doesn't understand Facebook
privacy and like it really wasn't that
it's like she didn't know that Callie
was friends with her sister so she
didn't understand immediately how Callie
saw the picture which is fine
like I don't you wouldn't automatically
be able to judge how somebody saw a
picture if you saw them reposted on
another service and like that's the long
and short of it but it became this
really stupid story like honestly I'm
sorry like we we talked about it a dozen
different times like should we hit this
and I could not find the actual story in
it yeah it's like oh let's it's like if
Dick Costolo DN failed if he tried to DM
everybody and he screwed up and then we
wrote a story about it like even Dukas
Tolo doesn't know how to use DMS on
twitter like it's kind of not a story
it's like everybody makes mistakes like
Randi Zuckerberg overreacted and Callie
made a mistake of repost in her picture
that really is story but it was like
seriously on the front page of Reddit
the next day which was surprising not
just right it was it was in a taxi TV
news feed like I saw it like Airport Oh
a home that's when I first just an
opportunity for people to make fun of
Randi Zuckerberg I mean that was like
well so I think that's actually the
deeper connecting thread here is that
our fear and distrust and antipathy
towards Facebook is so high that Mark
Zuckerberg sister who no longer works
for Facebook and is now a reality TV
show producer for Bravo
we're eager to to tar and feather
her because she doesn't know exactly how
Facebook how and she's in a unique
situation right she has Facebook
subscribers she has Facebook friends I
mean like that's not a normal Facebook
privacy situation for her right well
also the whole thing is abnormal because
like Kali has a bunch of followers on
Twitter yeah ready Zuckerberg is ready
Zuckerberg it's not like this happens to
regular people you know like my aunt is
not on facebook going like how come my
my picture was reposted on Twitter by a
person with a hundred thousand followers
like that doesn't happen because that's
not going on in reality because never
the Instagram I think Instagram would
have if Instagram wasn't owned by
Facebook and they changed their terms I
think the world would have seen it in a
different light yeah they would have
done really they I think they would have
got anything so if it was still a six
person startup and they changed terms of
survey I think they would have gotten
more slack I think they would have
gotten a lot more psyche instead it was
immediately read as evil Facebook
considers to you no no no and when I
first saw it it was definitely my first
instinct was oh this must be something
that has they've been kind of pushed
into by Facebook like Facebook was like
you need to get in line with our Terms
of Service so please change your
policies like that was my initial
reaction and I think it's like we have
we have a high mistrust or distrust of
Facebook because Facebook has been and
really irresponsible company they've
made really irresponsible decisions and
you know like I don't I don't interact
with Facebook the way I interact with
Twitter or Instagram or any other any of
these other discreet services because I
feel that whenever I do something on
Facebook I'm making I'm giving them
something they need to run their bit
like I'm making the exchange with them
which is like they're only providing the
service insofar as it can get them
something that you know to me insofar as
it can get them something they need
which is similar in the sense to YouTube
but I feel like what YouTube provides
far outweighs what they take away
whereas I don't feel on Facebook that
what they provide outweighs what I put
into it you know I think it's actually
quite the opposite it's like social
networks are nothing new what they do in
terms of sharing is not really special
or new and in fact like there are 20
different discrete services that do
everything the
Facebook doesn't probably better in many
ways but Facebook makes it feel like
there's an unfair exchange happening
every time you do something and that
makes me less interested in using the
service it makes me feel more guarded
about what the service will want from me
and what it'll take for me and I think
that that goes right back to the
Instagram thing which is people felt
suddenly that they were taking more than
they deserved and I think that's you
know I think there's a question of of
they're the bigger question here I think
is not you know whether the Terms of
Service are fair to the user but what
are we willing to give up to have a free
service because other give us everybody
to pay $20 a month for Instagram they
would lose you know a lot of users
pretty quickly I think I don't think
people would say like oh I got a payday
2 you know what is Flickr get 20 bucks a
year for a pro account something like
that you know we've seen it even with
with games and iOS right there was a
punch quest was a game like a freemium
game yeah and they were gonna run
entirely based on like in-app purchases
or whatever and it just didn't happen
they just didn't make any money until
they they they change their mind and
said we're gonna start driving people
towards in-app purchases yeah right
people don't want to pay for stuff and
they they have no desire to do it and
the freemium model is really hard unless
you start to do really shady things like
say we know everybody wants this one
feature so that's the feature we're
gonna hold out unless you pay the money
and that feels cheap to people I don't
that doesn't engender goodwill in your
user base you know I think the question
of what are we willing to give up for a
free service there in my mind that this
was the second piece I wrote about
Instagram if the reaction to we change
our Terms of Service is always going to
be this like heightened scrutiny and
this crazy and people are gonna get it
wrong I think all these companies are
just gonna start writing incredibly
broad Terms of Service when we write
about a new web service that shows up we
don't ever do an analysis the Terms of
Service right like right when we when
we're like here's if this than that like
we never went looked at the terms and
said they can take everything from you
right right but they it's better for
them now to write in terms of service
that in for every startup to write a
Terms of Service that enables them to
take everything broadly probably as they
can that's right
never change it and I think that and I
think that and it and it's really
important to note that it's not just
that there you know if it's companies
are in you know if you're in business to
make money or you think you're going to
make money at some point I mean this
goes for everything no matter what it is
and I've done you know right obviously
we've done lis business contracts with
the verge and with Fox I've done
contracts in music and like and and and
you know I've had apartment contracts
and you know weird things in New York
that you end up getting into because you
live in New York and in every case when
it comes to the person who's giving you
the contract their job is to cover their
ass as much as humanly possible and even
if it's like aggressive or malicious
towards the person who's getting the
contract
I mean sign a lease in New York and
check out what the lease says believe me
believe me it is not fair to the person
who's renting the apartment it is fair
to the landlord who owns the property
and has something it really has
something to lose right
so I think that that you know you have
to people have to start understanding
that these are businesses their
intention is to make money and be
successful and and in order to do that
you typically when you enter into a
contract with somebody for your business
you do whatever is in your best interest
in the contract and you don't as a user
you don't get to negotiate you know you
either sign the contract er you don't I
mean we've been doing this for 50 years
then not 50 years we've been doing it
for how long 30 years with computers you
get a piece of software you put the DVD
in or you put the disc in and it asks
you gives you this this huge page of
legalese which nobody ever reads and
it's like agree or disagree
well guessing that 99 times out of 100
you agree and you have no idea you're
creating two people don't know and it's
usually crazy like if you actually read
it you'd be like oh wow I didn't know
that adobe has the rights to anything I
create in Photoshop which they probably
do for all I know right but so here's
the thing which I think is interesting
if you look at the history of like
consumer protection law which is like
basically started in the 60s and 70s I
mean they were to the state governments
are like to the point where they're
mandating certain size fonts and like
rental car agreement was right there
like this has to be in capital letters
and asked in like 14-point times or
greater like this is in the law and it
didn't do any good
like you can't make people read the
contract you just can't like you can you
can do all kinds of you know song and
answer on it but there's nothing you can
like the government can do to make
citizens read contracts with third
parties it's never been proven to be
effective what you can do though is you
can you can say well Facebook is bad at
this and I think this is probably
Facebook's fears the most is Facebook it
has this terrible reputation for doing
shady things is there gonna be an
alternative service it has a better
reputation is that service possible well
everybody say just like they said with
Digg Digg sucks now we're all gonna go
to Reddit and now write like Digg is
better now and people are like there's
all this like reddit controversy they're
gonna go back to dig like will people
was there actually a market for privacy
in the way that there's been a market
for user experience and like features
all this other stuff
our people actually want to care about
it and the answer for Facebook
overwhelmingly has been no they don't
care
Facebook continues to do like just
terribly shitty things to its users with
their data with their privacy and the
people keep signing up for Facebook and
I don't know where the breaking point is
going to come it certainly wasn't a
rumor that Instagram was going to sell
your photos what's next you know like is
it is it like Mark Zuckerberg comes to
your house and like gives you like a
body scan like is that the level like I
don't honestly I don't know so here's
the here's the one concern I have was or
even I agree with about 99% of
everything you've said about this the
one concern I have is that we're basing
this whole conversation on the person
the people just getting the
interpretation wrong was there a way for
Instagram to handle this better and get
that Terms of Service out the way it was
originally had I mean it's a publicity
issue first and foremost I don't want to
completely blame everybody for having a
crazy reaction because it's what's in
that one so they went backwards yeah so
the thing is that they didn't have the
piece in place what they needed to do
was say here's how we're gonna advertise
on Instagram they don't know the answer
to that question so what they did was
they rewrote their Terms of Service to
enable them to share data to Facebook
and to you know allow this narrow set of
uses we're gonna put ads around your
photos that's great they still don't
know how they're gonna sell the ads if
they had said here's how we're gonna
monetize Instagram here's a list of like
five specific ad types we're going to do
and then we've changed the terms to
reflect it
I think people would have focused on the
specifics and they never would have
looked at the legal language but they
don't know the answer and I think for
Instagram that's the biggest dangers
they don't know the answer to how
they're gonna make money and I need it
now
why why change it now why if they had to
expect something like this I think they
changed it because they needed to share
some data with Facebook and in order to
share some data they they changed some
language about and this is actually a
thing they messaged we changed their
Terms of Service so that we could share
data with Facebook right that was the PR
headline of the Terms of Service they
should that should have said that right
well that's why we said that was the
first mistake right but they you know we
mentioned Facebook we got boss my
facebook we need to send some data to
them we need to help do something but
they didn't say Instagram so people read
the terms and said oh I get it
this is how they're gonna make money we
need we need it they should have just
said look we need Ducker Berg needs to
personally look through every photo see
if there's something that turns him on
right and so we just have to alter our
Terms of Service so what's it you know
my question for Instagram is are they
gonna ever will they get past this are
they now the poster child for bad Terms
of Service and for like confusion is
that part of their brand I think that I
think that the Instagram I think this
kind of tarnished their moment I think
that this is I think Instagram was but
you know Twitter has done all kinds of
horrible things that the media made a
big deal out of like all the aggressive
stuff they've done towards developers
and you know it there was a lot of there
was a big brouhaha everybody was very
upset for a week and then a new story
came up and the rest of the world went
on using Twitter as they had previously
which is using the Twitter app yeah yeah
just they adjusted to the change the
difference between their lives there's a
difference between this tiny community
of pissed off Mac developers you were
loud and vocal and and want to believe
they were on the Internet even though
they don't and there's you know that
that's great they can believe whatever
they want they can go to app net and you
know talk about like mac to CS or
whatever as they do there yeah but
there's a big difference between that
and my very characterization of the
people on app net that's that's what I
believe they do and how much and how
much better
than everybody else that's not correct
and there's a difference between that
and people saying oh you use Instagram
oh they can saw your photos but okay
what about what that's like real you
know no no I mean there's definitely now
in in the I mean that look the fact that
this exists I just want to once again
yeah just to be clear like I want to
point out how what a big deal this is
here's the cover of Us Weekly okay
here's the page you open about Instagram
like it's like the first thing that Us
Weekly needed you to know about I do
think that they are I do think that
their image has been tainted I think
that the next time look it's like but I
hear people say crazy things about
technology all the time I heard people
talking in the airport a few weeks ago
about how Samsung won a court case
against Apple and Apple owes and two
billion dollars you know like people
don't know what's up like people regular
people out in the world don't know what
they don't know what you know frankly
but I think you have to understand that
there are all sorts of crazy rumors
about stuff and you have to ask is it
gonna be a deterrent when somebody gets
their phone for the first time and all
of their friends are on Instagram are
they gonna say no I'm gonna use what are
you gonna use instead of Instagram to
share your pictures of cool filters do
you know that Twitter now has filters or
Google+ like you don't care about that
stuff you know that sharing photos with
cool filters happens on Instagram and
where else do you gonna do it you're
like exactly how we nine times out of 10
or 99 a hundred times press the agree
button I think people will say like you
know I'll take my chances
so I do think it tarnishes their image
for a moment I do think they're gonna
carry this around for a while
but I don't think it'll actually stop
people I mean only the biggest nerds are
going to like let me put this way is Kim
Kardashian still on Instagram yes or no
do we know did she quit I haven't
checked I'll bet you $1,000 Kim
Kardashian is still on Instagram you
know why she got mad about it on Twitter
for ten minutes and then got her nails
done and forgot about it and she moved
on to like you know whatever the next
thing that Kim Kardashian is not here
has not posted a photo of herself on the
service since that's very words you have
our lawyers look into it yeah I mean it
has been the holidays actually while
we're looking this up you get rid of her
account
delete her account nothing she has no
well here's what she said on Twitter I
really loved Instagram I need to review
this policy I don't think it's fair
four days ago she posted a gingerbread
house she's fine
listen listen to this if Instagram can
sell her images says our Kardashian pal
she has to quit because that leaves her
with no control
I mean Italian Pal is speaking out
remind me cuz this does remind me a
little bit of a Twitter's Promoted
Tweets and like to promote of hashtags
that kind of happened no one cared then
either was or was there a hoopla there's
always a blow because you know people
don't want to believe that other
companies have to make money it's like
Facebook's promoted right so the same
thing right like if I really want
somebody to see what am I like Facebook
status updates I can pay Facebook to put
in everybody's feet yeah is that do you
care about this is this is a classic we
should move on to another topic cuz I'm
getting bored of this but this is a
class I mean I think this is just a
classic internet move I think that we're
I think that the Internet has made
something just like the Randi Zuckerberg
angry tweets to Cali I think the
internet loves to make mountains out of
molehills
and I think that this is not this is a
combination of FUD of people not knowing
an understanding writing before they
understood the you know this is this is
that what is the Winston Churchill quote
it's like you know a lie will go around
the world twice before the truth has a
chance to put its shoes on or its boots
on its pants on or something I mean this
is close this is a classic humanity like
we love the stuff that sounds the worst
and it's and we love to gossip and it
goes you know it travels far faster than
the truth and the truth never gets a
word in edgewise and and this is just
another case of society latching onto BS
and and not letting go you know and I
think that I'm and I think that that you
know I don't think Instagram is gonna
have there's gonna be a material impact
to them but also it doesn't matter
because their business is part of
Facebook's business and it's either
gonna be a right down through there
gonna be a billion-dollar right down
from Facebook or not and I don't think
that they're a billion dollar right down
at this point no yeah yeah I think
Facebook Facebook has a bigger it's
funny cuz Facebook like they so
obviously don't care you know service
they launched the st. the same week of
the Instagram controversy no not poked
the test of you can pay a dollar to
message people that's right not friends
yeah which is like the shadiest thing
I've ever heard
so let's actually talk about that I want
to have a poke as well and snapchat of
course we have to talk about snapchat
but so this DUP hey pay a dollar to
message someone I just want to
understand the the logic here so I'm on
Facebook
yeah and I am friends I see I'm like
searching for something right or I see
and I see somebody who seems that's
cruising for babe's and I want to talk
to somebody but I'm not friends with
them and I'm not friends with any of
their friends so I pay a dollar to
Facebook and they let me send that
person a message yeah is that the idea
that's the idea and they think this
would be a profitable part of their
business know that what they told Ellis
was this will help us cut down on spam
which I don't understand because how can
spammers how can you use if you're not
friends with people right there they're
just like they're they're seeing if you
know if they're seeing if people are
inching into it it's like it
they're basically copying idea from
LinkedIn right if you sign up for like
LinkedIn premium or whatever it is finds
the difference to me is that LinkedIn is
explicitly like a social network for
business it's for businesses right so
you would you would pay as a business to
talk to somebody that you want to talk
to right right and that's like that
makes sense to me on Facebook it's like
you know who's gonna pay $1 to talk to
me is like jerks from high school creepy
like yeah dirtbag yeah and it's like I
mean if I were a dirtbag I don't I feel
like I would just find some other Avenue
I would just no I would just move on I
mean a dollar seems like a lot to pay to
send it to throw well they're gonna well
it might actually be the low end you
know this is but it's also funny cuz
Facebook keeps on trying to extract real
money from people in exchange for like
increasingly dumber things so they've
been pushing facebook gifts for like
forever right like give us a dollar and
we'll put like a present icon on your
friends page it's like nobody buys this
which is why I mean like wildly stupid
in my opinion I just don't get I don't
know I mean now that the new myspace
exists I feel like Facebook's days are
numbered
I mean I just feel even on it are you
all over it at man I'm all over the new
myspace yeah
I'm loving it I'm loving no yeah I'm on
new I in new myspace is Justin gates
just a music service basically right I
mean they seem to be fully almost 100%
focused on music and like listening and
like connecting with artists I mean
could any of those terrible new metal
bands for the early 2000s have existed
without myspace I mean isn't Dane Cook a
product of MySpace really I think so
yeah I think we feel me yeah no PG was a
real before my his base but they needed
my space to help them but I think that
no I don't know the new myspace is not
there's nothing to write home about I
have no strong opinion on it except that
I don't need another social network and
I certainly don't need another way to
connect with musicians or youth listen
to music so I'm not gonna I'm not I
don't see myself using it I mean at this
point if you're a social network you
really have to justify your existence in
some meaningful way beyond like we have
a different interface than Facebook so
that is snapchat and what's funny is
that Facebook copied it's so fast but
that was snapchat right yeah snapchat
was a social network that allowed you to
basically not keep a record of what you
do and to communicate using the internet
and all these great tools we have now
without the creepy permanence of the
internet and all these tools we have now
and it would apparently became an
instant I haven't used it yet because I
don't have anybody's sex I mean I I have
my my brother's girlfriend Katie who
writes her BuzzFeed he's obsessed with
my fiance his fiancee he's obsessed with
snapchat to the point where like I've
had a couple of meals with her where
she'd like won't stop talking about it
and I have to see if she's like being
paid but she's just really into this
she's not being paid she's really into
the idea a snapchat for some reason and
not for sexting or anything just for
Blix any weird stuff to people and and
so I I signed up for it
and I mean I played around with it I
think I'd seen it already but I I don't
I mean to me like there's only
really is only one use right I mean it's
for sexting okay it's for its for dong
its for dong pics okay tonight like and
like and yeah you know is it for
underage people sending around like nude
photos probably cuz that's what kids do
right now adays that's what I'm told I
mean you know AT&T offers their
unlimited sexting plans
what I think is I think there is a real
beyond just that I think there's a real
fear that like you know we'll have some
conversation I am or text or whatever
and then like you can just show it to
somebody else
right and that's like people are afraid
of that right you this actually gets
back to that that conversation about
Randi Zuckerberg photo which is you know
digital etiquette and and what we think
of as what is proprieties and what is
not and I think that um you know we have
to people are gonna have to deal with
the fact that they that if they're
living their lives online that that that
digital breadcrumb trail is forever
right but that's what I'm saying but so
that's so snapchat you're saying like to
be a new social network you have to
offer something Facebook can't yeah I
think that's why snapchat was successful
even if you know they're not realistic
their positioning they're positioning is
all wrong I mean yes maybe but they
didn't offer it is like they weren't
like you know what this gives you an
opportunity to communicate with people
and not have to worry about leaving this
this trail of breadcrumbs it or let you
know having them repost it on somebody
else to service or whatever it's the
positioning was like share hot pics with
your friends no they've been even
getting way away from they've been
knocking if they've been backing away
from you guys they realize that like
being the service that like 16 year-olds
used to send nude photos is probably not
a sustainable business or is it or is it
the most asuras ultimate if you're like
what is a never-ending market its 16
year olds making bad decisions that
market never ends there will always be a
new group of six year olds making poor
choices about their bodies in there and
there so it's funny is it Facebook
immediately launched coke which they
developed in like 12 days yeah you know
so by the way so yeah so Facebook
launched a basically a competing app
which is poke which is funny because
Facebook
it's entire existence is predicated in
Zuckerberg has even said this and and
into it to a weird and upsetting and
creepy degree that Facebook is
predicated on knowing the real you like
knowing the actual Nilay Patel or the
actual Josh de pulsky they don't want
you know they don't want crazy man 69 or
whatever my other that is a real account
by the way on what more dude crazy man
69 on Twitter yes sorry buddy you know
what your your that's your fault for
making using that name so it's just
fault I played crazy man by the way his
last tweet is you look damn fine girl so
the one before it to Daniel Tosh about
how long you prolly lost in bed this is
only four seconds I taught I told you
this is my alternate account that I ran
out of gas going around her after
filling out and it was a hybrid burns
you were great a mile and your rhymes
are tight keep it going no you don't
hear me talking about that stuff and
everything
hold on a second I wasn't I was getting
to a point that's amazing which I'm
completely off track from do you know
what I was what point I was making just
before you start saying the grades you
know facebooking predicated on knowing
you know that their entire existence is
predicated on knowing the real you and
using the real you to make money and and
and this is like oh here's a private way
to message people like you think about
snapchat is it can be it can also be
anonymous you know and I think it's
weird that Facebook once they get in on
that game but you know Jason Calacanis
wrote and I and I rarely you know talk
about him or or even probably agree with
him on things but you know he's a smart
guy and he wrote this great piece about
poke which was basically like why is
Facebook making such a big deal out of
getting into this game and they should
be focusing on on what their product
what kind of revenue stream their
product is going to generate or how it
continues to generate revenue and this
is not a revenue generator unless unless
they're going to merge that dollar
yeah that dollar message service with
snapchat it's like pay a dollar to send
an anonymous image to sub1 hey free idea
Facebook but no J the piece is really
good and it's on I think it's on his
launch blog or something
I write Alice you know I was from a
similar piece for us which was that you
know pro casts no chance of competing
right it was is actually for poke launch
people and they're just rumors
and Alice repeat pieces like people
don't want people don't believe Facebook
is going to throw anything away they
believe they're gonna take everything
and keep everything and like build some
perfect advertising profile of you and
so they're not going to use poke and I
don't even know what the numbers for
poke art are now I don't know if people
are using it right no one has brought it
up to me I think it's a great use of
that brand you know in facebook first
launched poke was like the feature like
that was the thing you did with Facebook
that was the Facebook that were like we
can just hit a poke button there's
nothing sensitive about that and also
Facebook isn't too bad right yet right
well it was that was like baby college
facebook before ads right but like it's
a it's a good use of the brand I just
don't know if anybody's going to use it
I certainly have no desire to give this
goes back to what you're saying Josh I
have no desire to give Facebook more
things and I made prove it that they are
a good place for those things to go yeah
and I mean and I think it's like it's
it's it's really important to to think
about well first off like what's the
point of the service I mean and how does
it mean how are most people can interact
with I mean do you have a reason to use
snapchat no well sadly no like right
sadly now I'm just saying all the people
who need to see my dog have seen my dog
wow that is bald deeply that is deeply
any I'm moving on you come to your life
you're older I just had a birthday and
so speaking speaking realize that the
dong list is closed
speaking of dongs snapchat snapchat we
turns out there they've got some
security issues they had a bug
it was covered last week that that you
could see the videos that you send
people after the period with that you
could watch them and poke though I think
poke an issue yesterday I don't know no
snapchat had an issue no snapchat we ran
snapchat this today has like an iOS bug
where you can see your videos the videos
that were sent to you so you know that's
the thing is ultimately these aren't
really they're not really private and
there's always going to be some way
around it's like once that picture hits
somebody else's phone it hit the phone
and there's gonna be some way to get at
it and I think that there's also some
stuff you can do to be able to save
these photos right so it's it's not
Chuck and Facebook so what it is like
it's there's a photo file it's an easy
movie file if you just have a file
browser for iPhone you could just grab
these right I mean I think once you
create you know bits there people can
copy them in one way or another I think
that's like fairly obvious but yeah it's
like um well the BBM used to have like
read receipts like back in the day and I
remember Jacob Schulman telling me about
all these like bbm hacks he'd done so he
could read messages without letting that
people know that he'd read the messages
I'm like it's the same image it's the
same thing it's the teenagers are gonna
like hey if you're gonna make bad
decisions other phones and be figure out
how to avoid the technology in place to
insulate them from those bad decisions
right they're good at it you know like
that's that's just the way it goes yeah
and I think that um I think that I don't
know and then I think I think the time
has come where we you know based on this
like the Instagram stuff you know people
need to really start thinking about what
it is that they what it is they're doing
what they want a service for you know
that that you can't just be like
everybody's just signing up for every
new service I mean and we have this you
know in our industry it's it's like this
desire to use the new thing and I feel
like a lot of times you kind of rush to
use the new thing without thinking like
what is the new thing do for me exactly
or what does this do that other things
don't do and I think that that I'm not
saying let's not use new things because
I love new things but I am saying like
maybe a tiny bit more of critical
thought behind what it is we want to do
with them and how we want to interact
with the world using those services
might be beneficial
so understanding what what terms of
service meeting versus right thinking
you understand what I think I I imagine
Pope had a decent launch because the
cost to try was nothing but there's
nothing I kept it around yeah but but
you have to want like if you're a um if
you're a Facebook user you have to want
to communicate the way Pope wants you to
communicate and how many Facebook users
are like oh man finally I can send
discreet secret messages all this time
I've been interacting on Facebook the
service that lets me connect with my
family and friends but what I really
wanted to do was send dong photos to my
to my loved one secret dog photos like I
haven't honestly I haven't used poke so
I can I really can't talk about right I
mean a crazy man 69 is you spoke well
you only to send sick burns Daniel
talked got a do you have to do it in a
discreet manner
tacho get catch on all right what else
do we have in our list of topics
anything we do you see the Hobbit I was
actually very curious I haven't seen The
Hobbit i won't i won't see another three
and a half hours of anything set mill
earth I just don't care I'm mad do you
see it
I have not same thing I'm just like I'm
not essential I just don't wanna see it
in 48 frames I mean I feel like I have
to go see cuz cuz of the 48 frames right
but King like can we just say like half
of it and walk out okay I'm just gonna
see what it looks like that's all I want
to see I mean I guess it's here's the
thing I really really hate going to the
movie theater bad like it's I vowed
never to do it after seeing Dark Knight
Rises in the theater and because it just
was the worst experience I mean that's
the thing like movie theaters are just
bad experiences for seeing movies I mean
if you want to hear the movie or and be
comfortable I think IMAX experience is
something I think an experience the guy
maxes were you know worth going to that
i-i-i personally not a big iMacs fan so
I know that's sacrilege just to say I
like old fat I'm like Quentin Tarantino
I like old-fashioned movie yeah but uh
but yeah I've just know I was like the
level of interest in the Hobbit that I
have right now is could not be lower
yeah especially because it's parently a
bad movie but I feel like I have to go
see it I mean I don't know go see it go
see it
for us would you I mean are you and are
you oh you're like we ran a review of it
and like yeah right somebody some did
somebody else saw it I mean I want to
see it with 48 frames I just want to
know what that's like
let's go it's like breaking a movie
theater and see a straw so you mean I
don't think you've to break in you can
buy a ticket I just want to like see it
you know like why don't you just buy a
ticket and we go see a little bit of it
and then leave all right that's actually
what we should talk about yeah Oh see
yeah we're going to see us again in just
over a week yeah you guys don't realize
this but CES 2013 is happening when the
verge will be there in full force of
course yes and this could be a really
interesting CES and what we're gonna put
we'll put some some info about CES
activities up on the site very soon yes
um
this can be really interesting to see
yes because a lot of the big players are
not going to be there in any meaningful
way like Microsoft for instance is not
going to be there and I think
everybody's got seems like they've got
scaled very scaled down plans and maybe
I'm mistaken maybe we're going to be
blown away by something maybe this is
the year that you know sharp just slays
it 4k man yeah I mean maybe I mean maybe
but I don't know a lot of people just
bought their HD TVs and I don't 4k is
like it's cool but it's a far-off dream
at this point you know I don't think
like there's me a big push for 4k next
year because the industry does it I
don't think industry feels like changing
up everything that they do at the moment
when they haven't even figured it out I
think once again and this was happening
last year we saw a ton of Smart TV stuff
happening with everybody anticipating
that Apple was going to introduce
something they had to like beat them to
the punch everything that was introduced
last year was essentially a failure
nobody cares about it nobody talks about
it
remember there was like motion
controlled who hadn't looked like
Phillips head not Phillips I know Sam
Samsung an algaecide motion controlled
remember that everybody's talking about
how they're cool motion control TVs work
like no nobody talks about it nobody
cares about it
voice controlled nobody talks about it
nobody cares about it Smart TVs are
basically an on thing you're either
using an Xbox or a Roku or an Apple TV
to get Smart TV content I think my
favorite stat of the year has been most
TVs now are Smart TVs and it's like yeah
you made all the TVs Smart TV no I mean
this is like you saying that my TV
this is like my TV it's a 3d TV and I
will never ever use its 3d functionality
like just because you put a feature in
it doesn't mean people are going to use
it and it's not it certainly doesn't
make that it doesn't show that there's
any uptick in in in use it just shows
that you put the feature into the TV
because it was cheap enough for you to
do it what was it was it Nielsen MPD
that just of the report said no one's
using Smart TV features which it's kind
of a no-brainer report I have a smart TV
and I use I I never ever touch the Smart
TV features I also have a smart blu-ray
player like there are three I have like
three things in my in my yeah set up
that art that are smart and I never
touch them I'm gonna open up my menu for
the first time right here oh no it's not
that's never mind yeah they're really
slow I mean they're they're bad you know
the thing is it like with Smart TVs like
the internals of them have to get better
at the same rate that like smartphone
internals get better for that experience
to be good it's like why would you put
like a gigahertz Snapdragon your TV to
use three apps that you're never going
to use like so there's no incentive to
do it and you can't the market doesn't
change fast enough like I agree with you
Josh I think the CES is gonna be very
very muted I think there's gonna be a
lot of I was talking to somebody in the
TV industry couple weeks ago and I was
like CES for me is always a series of
elaborate lies from TV manufacturers and
cable companies yeah and they're like
yeah that's what we do yeah I think I
actually think as in in technology the
lies are more see-through now and I
think that you know it's like putting
your money your money where your mouth
is is actually you know as consumers as
a growing mass of consumers adopt and
accept and use tech real technology in
their lives you know there's some pretty
interesting data from Christmas sales
you know something like some crazy
uptick in smartphone and tablet
ownership like three hundred and fifty
percent up year-over-year and you know
half of that stuff was tablets you know
I think it's now one in four Americans
has a tablet right I think is that is
this statistic I think it sound like
more more than in readers at this point
or something like yeah and and it's like
you know as
Zoomers get in touch with real
technology that is actually the kind of
life-changing and meaningful and execute
and delivers on the stuff that they have
been told it's going to deliver on you
know when you when you use an iPad and
you really get it for the first time
you're like oh this is actually doing
something that that I was promised and
it delivers you know I think that this
that this is the CES trend of showing up
putting on an exciting show talking
about how your new technology is somehow
better than everybody else's new
technology it's like the follow-through
really has to be there the delivery
really has to be there and I think that
CES is is hurt by I think the whole idea
of a consumer electronic show is hurt by
the sheer amount of BS that companies
deliver there but I think yeah I think
for until the smartphone era right
you could go to CES and this is true
this is ycs was big and important you
would go there and every company there
would lay out some vision of everyone is
going to have this product everyone's
gonna have a smart toaster or a 3d TV or
whatever it is and it turns out that the
product everybody ended up having was a
smartphone right and now that everybody
has a smartphone you have to convince
them that they're gonna get something
else on top of it yeah
and that's something else nobody knows
what that is because it seems like
almost every product can be done good
enough by a smartphone so a
point-and-shoot camera it's like
cratered right because you can just get
a smartphone all this like crazy home
control stuff crater because you can
just like do it in a smartphone like why
would you install a massive home control
rig or home automation Reagan like have
a dedicated PC when you can install like
three of those like Belkin Wemo like
light switches and control from your
smartphone right right that's what I see
I mean oh God all this uh like the Nike
FuelBand and the Fitbit and all that
stuff I bought one for Becky and I
bought one front brother-in-law they
have not once used their laptop to
interact with the Fitbit right they
they're only using their iPhones sitting
around with it because it's a better
experience and
every single thing is collapsing into
well I have a smartphone and then
secondarily - I have a tablet you know I
I haven't actually I'm only using my
laptop I'm home for the holidays right
I'm only using my laptop on my knee so I
get it and do like serious work with it
I've been using the iPad and the Nexus
10 like almost exclusively this entire
time and I haven't like been drawn back
to the laptop yeah that's that's real I
mean that's like you know we're buying a
new TV and we just did this crazy
roundup of Windows 8 all in one touch
computers and like I'm it's a bedroom TV
I'm seriously considering just buying a
Windows 8 like touch TV for that thing
just running netflix on it cuz it's it
seems smarter to me than spending why
would I spend $800 on a 40 inch TV when
I could spend $800 on a 27 inch windows
when I used to spend why don't you spend
like three or four hundred dollars on a
40 inch TV and get like an Apple TV or a
Roku because that that's like I don't
want all those boxes I just don't want
one 100 it's one box yeah but that's the
thing it's like to me it's like I don't
get set-top box like a big-screen later
like don't you want that III would yeah
I would get the dumb display and get the
box attack oh that would that that's it
but so that's the thing you're saying
you would get the dumb display but the
industry is I'm to not sell you a
dumbness no no I get that but the
industry is failing I mean we know
they're failing no there's something not
in this place that nobody's using you
know how many opportunities all across
the every piece of the industry is okay
it's a consumer electronics show what
type of consumer electronics are you
show me that is better than my
smartphone right well it's also it's
also it's also trying to justify you
know I mean I just think that in given
our act the economic state of the world
right now trying to justify a secondary
purchase of a you know either certain I
think we there are certain things you
need right in your house right you
you've got to have a TV right yeah
having most consumers will say well I
need to have a TV at least in my living
room and it's got to be hooked up to
cable that's like bare minimum right
we've got it I gotta have cable and TV I
need to have a smartphone right I don't
think it
tablet has reached they need to have at
this point but it's getting pretty close
like I think we're right on
you know we're teetering on the brink of
them you need to have a tablet okay and
then it's like a laptop or desktop
that's it you're done you're basically
done on your you need to have like small
consumer electronics I guess TVs not a
small electronic but from a pricing
standpoint they're now relatively
affordable and I think that I think that
you know you really have to justify your
existence and and CES to me seems
increasingly like a place where
justifying your existence is very
difficult not only because you're
surrounded by people doing the exact
same thing but because the things that
you're talking about are actually
non-essential just know the point
everything looks the same like we're in
this point like all the hardware design
is very ubiquitous you know like every
Co major is showing off different size
slates that have the same operating
system a little bit different it's a
software story now but CES has always
been set up as a hardware kind of event
and we're seeing right it's providing
you gadgets you know I think about how
we used to uh like three or four to see
us and we were doing Engadget it was
like very gadget focused for like okay
what what are the camera stories here
what are the best top stories right the
laptop stories and it's like do those
exist anymore are there is there a
camera story to told be told at CES
mm no I mean IV the last the last thing
that was exciting
the last thing is exciting CES was like
two years ago I think was the it was the
Atrix right like wow this could be sorry
Josh but it was the one one of the few
things I can think of in the last few
years of CES where I thought whoa we
haven't seen this before right this we
didn't expect this and this could
actually be really cool like what if my
smartphone became like the the heart and
the brains of my laptop and I just took
like this kind of shell and this phone
and like that obviated the need for one
of my pieces like cool idea awesome idea
totally did not work total failure um
but but I think the fact that that that
that's the last thing I can think of
like what happened last year no I mean
it was nothing right it was like there's
a little bit much but like that's it
yeah there's Windows Phone yeah but
Microsoft's presence was nothing new and
it's cause they already seen in Windows
8
was we'd already seen Windows 8 and we
already knew what was coming and and you
know that thick the surface and it's all
just kind of a variation on a theme at
this point it's like kind of it's like a
touchscreen laptop or a laptop that is
it also tablet you know or so it's like
I mean but that's that's the same as you
know an iPad with it with a keyboard
dock to me well the surface is obviously
different but you know and I'm saying I
don't think it's a revolutionary concept
in computing the way Microsoft wants it
to be at least and I don't think people
are necessarily asking for that but so
the question is now what what next right
and everybody says the next thing is the
living room but I think we're actually
in a valley you know I think we just
happen to be in a valley when it comes
to innovation and I think that or you
could say it's a plateau either way I
think that we've hit a point where
there's been so much rapid-fire
innovation over the last five or six
years that we're now just kind of coming
to grips with what it's like to live
with this innovation and what it's
supposed to do you know you barely had a
chance to see what an iPad can do at
this point I mean I don't think it's
nearly realized the full potential of
something like an iPad or even a
smartphone you know I mean in Japan
people use their smartphones to get on
trains like we don't do that here in
America and there are a million other
examples you can use use of ways that
smartphones can be used I mean home
automation is a place where home
automation is not a new idea but if
someone were to make it simple enough
and prove that it's energy-efficient and
prove that it's actually an improvement
to your life in some way that you can
afford and that you want that would be a
big deal but that's all kind of tied
like you said to the brain of the
smartphone to the existence of having
this thing in your pocket right I think
I think I I agree with you I think we've
we've hit the point where we we put the
computer in everybody's pocket which is
a remarkable thing to have done and now
the question is okay now what like what
are you gonna do now like really you you
and I actually think the way it's the
way things will look for people in the
future is you will have like the one big
desktop computer in your home and then
you'll have like phones and tablets it
like revolve around it in the cloud so
that your photos don't just go to
Facebook or Dropbox or Picasa or
whatever they actually land at home and
you have more control over them wait you
think
you think we're gonna start doing
desktops not they weren't the point
people just do not want desktops you
know I think I think people are going to
stop buying laptops so we're already
seeing happening right like the trend
towards buying tablets instead of
laptops is real I just bought for
Christmas I bought my mom a new iPad and
so the laptop right she's never
expressed any interest in honing a
laptop to me she's had one but she has a
combination of an iMac in it and iPad
and that's what she wants but you think
you actually start going back to
desktops at games like I want some
physical location for my product well I
think I think people are gonna want a
big screen and I think they they're
gonna want like storage yeah I mean like
you take a lot of photos on your phone I
think you want to see them meet them
it's it's the cloud now like that's what
we're gonna say it's in the cloud yeah
but there's there's no 21 inch screen
and for you to look at the cloud right
like Josh do you have it you don't have
a desktop do you ever miss one you know
it's funny I was talking last night
about thinking that I maybe wanted to
get a desktop you know we're moving to a
new office I was thinking maybe I would
get a desktop for the office and just
use that for work I also you know
thought it'd be cool to have one at home
I got I don't nothing I do require as a
desktop I mean I just don't see any need
for it I mean I'm not you know it just
doesn't make any sense to me I can't
understand why you have like you have a
time capsule I'm it's like I'm trying to
remember what your setup is as you've
told me so you have some place where
like there storage in your life right
like your computers all back up to
sometime now backing up exclusively to
CrashPlan oh really in the cloud yeah
and in fact I'm actually I paused a
backup that I was doing of an old drive
of mine to crash plan I think crash plan
is brilliant it takes like all of the
guesswork out of this stuff and it's
like a little bit it's like a little bit
more complex to set up and to used and
you know something like time machine
mm-hmm but it seems to be way more
reliable and I don't have to worry about
my stuff disappearing because it's
redundant ly backed up on a bunch of
server somewhere it's it's cloud again
there's no physical location yeah I'm
over I mean the whole the whole I mean
the whole idea of physical storage to me
seems like ridiculously hopelessly
outmoded and like when I open iPhoto to
downloads my photos for my photo stream
it seems like the
archaic experience no it really does it
just seems like it's puzzling to me why
it would even exist in that manner like
yeah right your iPhoto folder should be
it your iPhoto should be like a folder
like a like a Dropbox or Google Drive
folder on your computer that they just
exist in that like they're there they
just look you have to open iPhoto to get
the photos down to your computer it's
hilarious
please it's the one it does it's the
part of it that does the syncing right
like just bizarre like I don't even
understand why I'd want to store stuff
like iTunes like yeah I was talking to
you know we talked about this before but
when I do the thing with Brian Williams
I was like do you still use iTunes he's
like yeah and I like to me the idea of
opening iTunes to listen to music is
just a totally alien to me now I hardly
ever do it and it just is not how I
ingest or experience stuff and so I
think that I think that the you know I
mean like the cloud is obviously where
everything is headed I mean look we're
using a cloud service right now to have
this conversation you know I love the
fact I don't have to open Skype to do
what we're doing
I mean it's incredible I'm also like
also it's just it's like better like
this is extensible like that we're using
this hangout toolbox which is something
you can install to do the lower thirds
like to me this is such an amazing like
concept and this is in a browser you can
do this on a Chromebook that's 250
dollars there's nothing happening here
that can't happen on the $250 which to
me is the most brilliant thing in the
world then I think that um you know when
I think about my phone and my tablet
everything that I do on a yes it
download stuff but ultimately everything
I'm doing like if I'm not playing a game
is cloud-based right you know whether
it's social whether it's reading you
know if I'm using like I use reader on
my iphone on my ipad and some other RSS
stuff on my Google products but you know
they're pulling down stuff but
essentially it's polling from the cloud
it's not like I those don't need to be
there they could I could view them only
in cloud form like news stories Twitter
is all obviously cloud - Instagram is
all cloud like I'm not storing Instagram
photos but I'm thinking like if I had to
like build the Hat like the house that I
wanted it would have like an iMac in
like my office with like hard drives
there
all the stuff that I don't want to put
in the cloud and I want to keep near me
right what is that what would that be
I mean your hard drive your hard drive
is more likely to fail your personal
hard drives more like I mean I'm not
saying I wouldn't like backed up but
like the photos that I take well when I
download them from the cloud every time
I want to look at a photo that I've
taken I'm my niece and nephew they watch
they just bought elf right from iTunes
they've downloaded it to one of their
computers I don't want to stream that
from iTunes every single time I want to
watch it and sometimes like they go in
cars and I don't want to like yeah I
mean you know there's definitely you
know there's definitely situations where
you want stuff locally stored but it's I
mean I'm just like at pains to think of
when those situations happen for me you
know like like I get that yeah you kids
go in the car and they want to watch a
movie on an iPad and you need to
download the movie to the iPad okay fine
Linda should be a checkbox that says
download this to the iPad that's what
that's what that's what you know that's
what um Google services do like if you
write get something on their TV whatever
you know they're a story you can
download it or you can stream it but you
gotta come when it comes to pictures
you're not looking at the full res every
time we're going through the thumbnails
then you del are you looking where who
needs the full res on your regular size
monitor right you know even on it even
on a 1080 HD TV you're not full res is
like your NIT way out of the vicinity of
what full res but who doesn't want to
zoom in endlessly okay but but but
that's fine but I mean on a decent
internet connection you know what I'm
saying is I think to bring this all the
way back to CES I think the next part of
this puzzle is okay now we have like 50
disparate things we have 60 cloud
services but an average human being
doesn't know what to use how to use it
how to connect a phone to their tablet
so they're great right how to make how
to bring all the stuff the end this is
why the living room is the holy grail
right I mean this is housekeeping though
ultimately you know I was it's well it's
it's housekeeping only in a sense that
like instead of there it's housekeeping
in a sense to me has to build the house
right I mean it's we've dumped a bunch
of like cement in like two by fours and
I in a yard in a pile enjoy this is like
a
obvious pictures like nobody ever
actually said like here's that here's
how you should live I'll be on to the
you and I think about local storage my
main thought is storing things on things
that I have control over like physically
usually ends in tragedy for me usually
ends in like my stuff getting erased or
being destroyed like this just happened
with a bunch of time capsule backups
that I had they got destroyed because
something happened to the drive-in that
if if I'll be honest with you if
somebody could come up with a if
somebody could invent a harddrive that
was like zero failure rate like this
will never break that would be like you
will never lose data on this product
that would be a revolutionary project
will drive you'd lose it in a movie ok
fine let's just say it's up to me to
make sure that the physical drive
doesn't get lost alright that I don't
that doesn't get burned up in a fire or
dumped in some water if you could make a
drive that was like no mechanical
failure no data loss like absolutely
resilient and redundant in some way that
meant it would never ever lose my data I
want to use local storage a lot more I
would download things a lot more often I
just don't trust I don't trust my hard
drives I don't trust this equipment to
store my most important things what I do
trust is an array of servers and and
drive somewhere that are like
essentially infinitely redundant you
know I believe that Google will do a
better job managing my data than I will
I believe that Google has more
redundancies in place than I do I
believe that CrashPlan has more
redundancies in place that Dropbox has
more redundancies in place you know why
that's their business their business is
data storage and so like I think that
would be a great hurdle to jump over but
I do think getting sorry getting back to
the the living room idea or this you
know I do think there is the question of
making all this stuff work I mean look I
am we had Christmas dinner a few days
ago and Katie's uncle who's in his 70s
has had just gotten an iPad and he was
setting it up for the first time and man
he knew nothing about it he did not know
how to set it up and it he never would
have been able to figure out how to set
it up and like when he was using it for
the first time he didn't know how to
touch it and it was crazy to me seeing
someone like he was like trying to get
in there with his fingernail and he was
like he was like aggressively I was like
just touch it like you're just you know
like you're pointing out something on a
page like it was even I couldn't even
explain how to touch it properly
fingernail was it like something he was
just used to like this bad like no but
he was like he was interacting with the
buttons like they were physical buttons
like you had to like press down on them
hard or get your like get it on edge on
them somehow like he was just but what
the thing is like I said of iCloud for
him and I felt like God in a million
years most people cannot figure out how
to get this stuff working properly you
know cannot figure out how that's the
thing about Google that I think that
they don't get I don't know if they get
enough credit for it but you know when
you set up a gmail account like your
stuff's just there like you know you the
password to your gmail account like you
can just get it that stuff there's a
place to click on it it's wherever you
go there is no setup you know you're not
downloading anything you don't have to
connect anything there's no syncing it's
like it's just there and like now that
they've integrated a bunch of their
services you know like targeted ads of
course which theory yeah I mean I just
that's just like a non-issue a service
targeted ads that's all what that's
exactly what Facebook does 24/7 yeah so
like oh I guess you hate Facebook too
you know like how about you know it's
like I don't have a promo targeted ads
like they don't bother me they don't
bother me in my email even because it's
just I've seen reading words but the
point is that their stuff sinks and
works and when you get an Android phone
and you put your Gmail account in like
you get your calendar you get your
contact you get if you are drive user
you download Drive and you say I want to
use this Gmail kind of all of a sudden
your contents they're like ah to me like
that they actually have been they've
been solving the problem all along and
that's where everybody else has to play
catch-up to it's like put your TV down
in your house put in your Gmail account
and all of a sudden like all your
content is there I mean that would be
that would be a problem-solver they have
obviously haven't done that they try and
fail to do that I think there is this
lack of connectivity between these
things and lack of like understanding
for most people how to make them really
useful you know I don't think I Cobb
provides the seamless like wonderful
elegant experience for it
provides a kind of a confusing
experience so I think that for TV makers
or for set-top box makers or for people
who are doing home automation or talking
about the living room or the household I
think to make things work together is
would be a big is that is that building
the house Nilay is that what you think
yeah I mean that that's it it's it's
take you know my mom when she we got her
an iPad but what she was saying for like
the week before Christmas was I hear
nooks are good for reading and we
couldn't figure out what the hell she
meant and she was just being very opaque
it turns out that she just meant that uh
when you get when you have a note can
you go into Barnes & Noble they let you
read for free for an hour so we should
disappoint it when you got her the iPad
know cuz I was like look it has LTE like
you don't need the free our Wi-Fi Barnes
and Noble
she's like oh it's it's way better for
me and like yeah what what just happened
like that it's it's this the level of
confusion over this stuff you know the I
keep on we came to Samsung ads were they
they're sharing the videos by touching
together touch to share over NFC but in
the ads are a complete lie because the
videos don't transfer just by touching
like they have to like go up through the
you know what I mean like yeah it's not
real but that is the vision that they're
in it's it's not even today right right
but that the division that's out there
in the world like this is once you get
this stuff you just start doing all
these amazing things yeah is once you
get this stuff you have to start making
this endless series of decisions over
what services you're going to use over
whether you trust Google to store your
data or you trust Instagram to not sell
your photos or whatever the media is
telling you it's going to do or how much
do you want to use Facebook to connect
to your family in like this a series of
decisions is like impossible but I also
think that you know oh I agree with that
and I don't think that Samsung makes it
any easier
I mean Samsung has to do all kinds of
weird Samsung stuff like they've got
their services and keys air and like all
this dumb kids
nobody's copy right ya know all the all
the extra stuff that they've included
that are like they've thrown up barriers
you know um you know I do think I do
think that you know Apple still gets it
most right with the it just works
yeah scenario and for most things like
for our stamps
simple setup but I do think there is
like removing those barriers or removing
those decision-making process to some
degree and letting things be fluid I
think you're like what what technology
needs to do now is focus on like a
reduction in friction when I see the
share screen even in Android when you
see like the how you share like it makes
sense it does make sense it makes more
sense of what Apple does but there's
stuff like that I I think that that's
one of those things all over iOS since
I've been using an iPhone again I'm just
like man the level of friction that
happens here the lack of fluidity
between things just seems crazy to me
you know and I think that reducing
friction is a big challenge in
technology and I think that the reason
if the challenge now and that it should
be in the spotlight is because regular
humans are using - this is not for just
us as not you're for just nerds it's not
like hey I know how to do a really
complex setup and I know how to go
through all the steps and I'm happy to
choose like destinations and sources
like that's us but most people and the
people who are adopting those
one-in-four you know the 350 percent
increase in purchases on smartphones and
tablets that's that's the world and at
some point you're either gonna like
drown in these options or someone's
gonna find a way to like throw you a
flotation device so yeah exactly so if
we can talk poetic vision I mean there
are nodes and their connections the nose
was the hardware we're we're bored with
that it's there the connection is how do
we get to the internet how do you think
right now it's incremental improvements
in the in the hardware I think the
software has been incrementally improved
- since iPhone the first iPhone I think
you know the last big leap in in in
software thinking I think comes from
what Google did with Ice Cream Sandwich
and what they've pioneered since then
like I think in terms of fluidity and I
think that you know I think that there's
a the whole range of thinking you know
the iPad interface is not the best the
iPad can be I don't think that it was
made for the iPad I think it was made
just it was a scaled up you know iPhone
so I think that now that I mean Ross
what is your exact question I mean I
kind of question which is an idea like
trying to connect this idea I was going
to talk a little bit about wearable
interfaces or
just different kinds of way of
interacting but like that's that's more
like a like guilty pleasures like I
don't think it's actually gonna be a big
deal this year but it's something I wish
it would be well I mean I guess with
wearable i gifted what is the question
you know what is the situation where
physical of a more physical interaction
makes sense like I don't like talking to
my phone or tablet well to be incredibly
uncomfortable and and often
counterproductive and and slower than
tight-knit well you know it's actually
interesting is um either there are two
things that do a Siri like basically
like four or five times a week I use it
to set alarms which is it's actually
really good at yes and I think faster
than monkeying with the clock app and I
use it to make a phone call and I use it
to I ask it to call the car service in
Brooklyn that I use and what's funny is
that about I would say quarter of the
time I pick up the phone and instead of
saying call you know the car service I
just ask it for a car and it's funny to
me that that's the thing that I actually
want to do is I don't want to like skip
the step of I want it to call the car
service so I can talk to the operator I
just want to tell the phone what I want
I want it to be yellow right um and I
think that's where those interfaces need
to go beyond for this basic set of phone
functions to I'm asking for this set of
like life functions which is another car
and I think how to do that and I think
and I have to say I think this is one of
the places where where Google now gets
things you know not always right but
often right where it where it assumes
where it assumes something and and does
tend to assume correctly yeah about what
your what your desired action is I don't
anything so Ivan I've been using the
Nexus 4 and I really think Google now is
destined to become the home screen of
the phone I think it's right now it's
hidden away in this this piece because
it's not you know it's not terribly
useful but it should at least be a
widget it should be a widget but they're
you know they're adding cards to it it
gets more useful over time they do I
think it is getting the like I see it as
the home screen of the phone you got the
phone I turn on i unlock it and it just
shows me all this stuff that's going on
and it's basically if you its most basic
level
just automatic widgets right right well
is deciding what data you need to see I
mean it's time it's time it's like you
know search time location-based widget
yeah ultimately you know but I do think
that that you know asking it to do
something is really not like asking a
computer to do something is what we know
how to do it's what we used to do it and
like you know I'm it's I'm more likely
to get the result I want when I type it
into Google than I am when I ask Siri to
do it
I found honestly I think Siri is most
useful for locating things and making
phone calls like when you have when your
hands are full that to me has been the
thing that I've found is series like if
I'm walking around or if I have like a
couple of things in my hands and I need
to get a phone number I need to make a
call that stuff is like it's like it is
like the assistant portion of it really
functioning well but I think that in
terms of being able to take action in
your life it doesn't it does fall short
and I think the talking to a phone is
not the most useful way to get
information and talking to a talk due to
a computer is not the best way to
interact with it I certainly like maybe
people sit around and dictate their
writing my my brain doesn't form
thoughts like that and maybe because I
write but my brain just doesn't work
like I can't think of clearly form
questions or actions in that way and as
a privacy thing to you unless I want
people to hear you say that well that's
you definitely don't want to be in a car
with your friends and you know dictating
a text message to somebody that's
obviously not ideal so I think that I
think that I think that the voice stuff
is a little bit of a red herring I think
it's just like I think it just didn't
put in general like the more inputs the
better you know the more it knows what
you're doing the better if it knows like
where you are and what the time of day
is and what you just search for you know
that's that's really helpful so anyhow
we should wrap up unless there's
anything else we need to talk about not
really it's pressing by the way that was
the most depressing CES preview I think
we've ever done I'll be honest you know
CES is is um has historically been a
gadget show um you know I think that
that
gadgets are interesting but are far from
the most interesting thing happening
right now you know I think that there
there's incremental innovation happening
in hardware I think that a higher
resolution screen doesn't blow me the
blow me away like you know good we know
what good screens look like we know that
there will be better screens we expect
that faster CPUs we expect that thinner
lighter form factors we expect that the
question is like what are the things we
need now you know what are the things
that people haven't given us yet that we
that a consumer needs or a user needs to
do something and and like I just think
that we we have plateaued a bit in the
hardware on the hardware front right now
and it is a question of good software
and the difference between good software
and bad software can completely change
your opinion of a device you know I
think the iPhone 5 is a beautiful piece
of hardware I think the software
tremendously diminishes often like how
elegant of a device I think it is you
know where is this has been going around
I think the tech press for weeks now why
phone is loaded up with Google Apps I
mean I use I use Chrome to browse I use
the new Gmail app for my email and I use
maps exclusively like I won't touch
their Maps at all and it's not just
because like it just doesn't have the
information have the data I need it's
not because I think the maps are gonna
give me wrong directions I do you think
like most the time at least here in New
York and I'm looking at a map I'm
looking for something really specific
and if I can't find that thing in my
first try when I'm out and about and
doing things yeah then the map has
essentially failed but um but you know
anyhow it's it's just like you know
software there's a lot of work to do in
interaction with these devices and we
have done we've barely scratched the
surface I mean I feel like we're so you
know when I think about that I think
that the webOS
interfaith still seems like really
innovative and fluid no but like at
years after years after it was announced
and year now a year after it's been
essentially killed
I still think man that interface was
really intuitive and really natural and
made a lot of sense and I still don't
feel that way when I'm using most modern
devices like I don't feel that I'm using
a really a really natural human targeted
device I feel like I'm like still kind
of grappling with a computer
it was it was a form of her function
thing like it was a great interface it
did a lot of stuff whatever those cards
itself though just couldn't do enough
functionally yeah but I mean take it
mean take that concept now and match it
to a quad-core CPU within a crazy GPU
and tons of RAM I mean that that I mean
that what we're doing I mean I'm not
saying that like hey let's go back to
news webOS is interface but I'm saying
that the palm did something that I still
look at and think this was intuitive and
human in a way that a lot of other
interfaces aren't and why aren't we
doing more of that why aren't we doing
more stuff that feels right to a user
you know I know that BlackBerry 10 is
trying some of that stuff and we'll see
how well they pull it off I think
Windows Phone has done some real
thinking about what users are actually
doing but I still think we're lacking a
general fluidity to these devices that
would be that would really change our
experience with them on that meaningful
these very odd so so we will be to
really quickly oh I guess we should just
say if you want to get touch with us you
can email us at Virg cast at the verge
comm you can leave a comment in the post
when it goes up you can find us on
Twitter the verge is at Virg Neil is
reckless
I'm Joshua Topolsky Ross is oh no Roscoe
no II on the end
Laurel never any and but we will be at
CES we're going we have a big big plan a
big exciting stuff happening there a ton
of video tons of interviews live lots of
live video 90 and 90 cut about that Ross
go for it
we're gonna have we're gonna have every
90 minutes we're gonna have a 90 seconds
on the verge all day long
so are you crossing yourself yeah
Prosser we're gonna have like that we're
gonna have like a live show in the
morning we're gonna have 1990 we're
gonna have a live show in the evening
and and tons of live interviews and
hands-on zand demos and all kinds of
stuff like the whole time we're at CES
we're bringing like a big crew out there
I think we now have over what is it 60
people over 60 at least over 60 people
come in which is insane we have a
double-wide trailer we're gonna have
like it's cool we're gonna be on the
floor we're gonna be in the trailer well
a post up probably on Monday about you
know our CES kind of outlook in preview
and what's happening and and though we
have an awesome CES hub page where you
can get all the stuff you can just plug
right into it which will be up very
shortly and we're very excited about
that with a new kind of a tweak on our
design and it's cool so yeah so we're
still very excited by CES there's a lot
of stories to tell there we're going to
be telling them there's a lot of stuff
to cover that we're going to be covering
it we are going to be we are the
official what is it are our titles
official tech news source for CES
exclusive we're also the official we're
also the official interplanetary yeah
new source for CES which allow people
don't talk about but that covers a
number of number of planets yeah within
our solar system and anyhow but it's
gonna be big fun it's gonna be a crazy
week of news and that's get started what
is the official start date of CES is
that the I should know this I think the
first big day for us can be the seventh
yeah it officially starts on the 8th but
we'll be there many many days before
this can be there's always news
beforehand and there's some live events
the night before so we'll be covering
that stuff um anyway I'm just gonna say
if you want to tune into the best the
best of the best I mean here's the thing
about CES there's a lot of crap there
and we will be doing a lot of avoiding
the crap and giving you guys like the
best of the best that is happening there
and you know we've got some I'm excited
because you know last year we experiment
was our first year doing CES as the
verge and you know we found that stuff
like our story streams were just like
hugely helpful for telling some of these
stories about like hey there's a
thousand new laptops like how do you see
all of them like how do you understand
what's going on and like so I think that
we're gonna lean a lot on are some of
our tools that I think yeah I feel are
very helpful to telling these big messy
story it's like there's a thousand new
coin chutes thousand new routers I know
beat that's my new site router yeah is
that anything anything else for you guys
before we go no I've been here so yeah
that's our verge cast have a happy and
safe new year
even though we know the terrible things
are about to happen to you and your
family doctor all art try goodbye
Paul Paul
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