Gadgetory

hey and welcome to the verge cast for the week of March 18 2013 I'm Josh Topolsky I'm nilay patel and we have a very special guest with us adrianne jeffries am I saying that right no Sam it's adrianne jeffries I'm sorry it's not Jay for us that's what I've been pronouncing at this adrianne jeffries who is one of our one of our writers a human and uh and also also my own person also her own person and a female human I just say a female human yeah any adrian is that adrian is here she wrote a big piece on any ribbon this week that we wanted to talk about yeah which we're going to get to and and I don't know what the topic list is I rushed over here because I was waiting at home for a package and it never came yeah it's my happy hacking keyboard oh is that one which is a three-hundred-dollar keyboard you're a maniac which I probably won't use very much because I use a laptop yeah and so it's been very upsetting it's been a very upsetting day let's see if it's been delivered I keep checking I'm checking for live updates yeah we're gonna get live well I'll be very disappointed if I can't make it back in time to get it still on vehicle so that's well actually I just tweeted that we had a surprising amount of chaos as we like began and it's a lot of in for this yeah yeah well this is oh I would say we should talk about this it's our first show guys so weird i don't know I there's so much distance between you guys it's our first show in the new studio yeah which is still in we're still unpacking there's stuff to be done here is literally man sleeping in blanket there's a guy over there who worked all night but it's very exciting yeah it's extremely exciting professional from from the camp it does based on these cameras I feel like I just working in the background yeah we could see bother me monitor here I me know what camera I'm looking at right now is the left or right camera where my one this one yeah no this is my that's mine okay i'm still getting so I we haven't seen any of these shots these are all news to us obviously the our crew our team who does this has seen it but it's news to me so when I dress the viewer I guess I'm addressing you in this camera that right does that look right great fantastic okay so we should get started we've loved stuff talking about Neal I we had it was a big big crazy we can use we like came storming out of the gate now it was a week of not of major news events right but of a lot of meaningful interesting yeah there's a lot going on yeah and ie it's pretty obvious that the the stage is being set for like the next wave of like big news events I'm and you know we'll start right off with I think Samsung which why can't I love talking about my did we have we talked about Samsung yeah so they watched gs4 last week yeah but talked about that I talked about it we had the big livestream yeah the phone looks like people were very people are very confused by the way they were like is the verge cast dead now yeah it's like listen we're only doing the verge cast completely after samsung is just one just one show yeah well we were building this to any way sir they had a big event there's a lot of controversy immediately after the event and then I ran a big report on Monday because I it called Broadway people which is not something you normally do know that's right i mean this week's been so long i completely forgot they have you had this report so so i talked to the director and the writer the writer is now in la working on an atom sample you wrote on and let me live let's be clear you wrote a behind the scenes of their extremely sexist of the galaxy s4 sexist event which was which was written and produced by broadway right bit major Broadway talent Broadway talent well you know it's people who have Tony just people well yeah the director directed Newsies I thought was he was very into talking about Newsies because it's one year Adrian your big news your big news this area right do you like Newsies seen you've never seen news about the movie I haven't seen seriously you know Christian Bale's in it as a child that's how and yeah it's really interesting i feel like nazy now a couple anyways but so so look even aside from the the controversy over the specific content of the thing I think it's crazy that Samsung is like putting on these lavish productions to launch a phone you you that oh there's only one company and technology that does that who is it samsung like it's saying only samsung is like well I've answered everybody does their events everybody does events but like the idea that samsung will have an orchestra that literally is under the stage and they'll raise the orchestra and be like look what we bought yup well they were they were in radio city music hall but that's great that's crazy teen the word on the street is that they're spending 400 million dollars to promote yeah to launch the galaxy s4 yeah 400 million to the number do you have any idea how many starving children they could feed with four hundred million dollars well I'm sure they'll feel I'm after like sell the phones and collect like the billions of dollars like 10 like you gotta spend money to make money kid I guess so haha sure okay that's what Samsung's telling with starting job so like regardless of the contours I thought it was interesting I want to talk these people and then this massive controversy erupted over the portrayal of women in the show yeah and so I called Ivan Menchel who wrote it these the guys writing Adam Sandler movie and Jeff Calhoun news directors God directed Newsies currently directing Newsies and they're both like basically what they said to me was a regular Broadway show that we're used to working on we open like out of town like we open and yeah he worried yeah you give it a we do reviews and we like get feedback and then we change the show sure but because this was a product launch and it was basically being written in Korea we didn't have any opportunity to do any of the stuff and nobody ever mentioned this like crazy like all the way our super did that controversy get started did start with the cnet story it started during mean I was looking at least why I was live logging I mean I was look at Twitter own life while you to see what people want to like to know about um and it was like all of it would like the whole time I feel like I also feel like people sensitivity to how sexist this any event might be now was turned up a little bit because of the Sony event and and this was like if the Sony event seemed like subtly sexist and that there were no women on stage out of the night teen companies that they brought up on stage this one was like but what if we weren't suddenly say what if we were overtly crazily sexist right i mean this is the link better yeah well look at least they're honest i'm sure they're like look ladies you can wave at it while your nails dry ladies here's a week we're just gonna be straight and you know is really interesting is it so they got you know the right on the director they told me like this whole skit this big controversy with the the bridesmaids party in the waving your nails and a drunk lady ugly naked guy which is fine did that happen I didn't see the entire that happen um they're like we wanted to make fun of section city we want to make fun of bridesmaids but literally we had to send Korea a new script every day and was his big line was there was not a pair of socks on stage that hadn't been photographed sent to Korea and approved yeah so it's like they engage its I think I think those by the way it was like I'd like to get some selections you have the socks just laid out I mean I think saying so that all happened and I think people who are watching this podcast probably read that story and know about that and loved it loved it but what's interesting is that the next day samsung South Africa apologized to sites in South Africa like for an event that Samsung had held in that country for refrigerator refrigerators and washing machine and the washing machine was called the wobble and they had a troop of bikini girls come out and like shake it still like demonstrate their so it's like Samsung has this like problem where well I think the world has a problem samsung is simply no I system of the world no problem I'm that yeah it's a symptom but i think the specific time you saw a woman on stage at an apple event well there's that but samsung's problem is that they're they're putting on these like incredibly low rice production right and they're trying to engage art in this way without ever realizing that by doing like the most crass like a lowest common denominator thing that they're going to get this criticism well here's what I here's what I feel like I've learned from watching like the Qualcomm CES keynote and the Samsung thing what I've seen a samsung think I really think that these company should stay away from Thea Rick's I think that I think it is a I think it is a toxic terrible mixture when they think that they're going to put on like a show for people it's always off-key right we have always and it's because you can't make me maybe you can but it's really really hard to mix the direct commercial message of everybody should love our product with like this game you're trying to play like well we're also engage in culture yes they're still like supposed to be like trade events right right hi Mary audiences journalist so like I guess the way it used to be is it would just be specs yeah technical stuff right does it do you feel like now they're actually hoping that some customers you're gonna buy phones I do you know there were a couple to that point I agree that they'd are thinking that there were a couple of things I think mat Honan wrote something in map you can and wrote something about like this is I'm so bored with this like there was this big launch event it's just another smartphone and I was thinking that's true for us in the industry we've seen a million smartphone launches but I think part of putting on this spectacle was not to say hey look at all of our amazing specs it was almost to say like Samsung is here and we've got awesome products and we're an amazing come and put on a big show the radius anything to do with it'll 6,000 people and they invited the United fan yeah right so they streamed it and like like at the 500,000 people watched it live which is nuts and then yeah like that can't be right that's right 500,000 like that one time or torrent people that was the number that uh no shocker told me that they were watching a live streaming that was done but worldwide it's not actually he seems insane and then I don't know how many people watched it since I'm so you'd watched it today actually you were you were like I did I cramming for the verge past yes what so what you think I thought it was um I mean it was super campy like Mollywood makes the point that you know it's not just women who are portrayed of stereotypes it's every single type of person um and yeah I thought it was annoying reminded me okay so we're talking about the women in tech stuff now um it reminded me of like do you remember when Del had that like della yeah the new site that was for women yeah and it was just like you know it's not it doesn't like it's not like a huge deal it doesn't really impact my life but it's annoying it's late really it's it's like if you have if you're a smart modern I mean anybody not a woman a man anything like it just seems so out of touch with reality and what like life is actually like right you know that's so it just off-key it's like you know you write the you're going back to this these portrayals these stereotypes it's like the thing with Qualcomm where they were supposed to know the young hip kids and it was you don't know what you don't know what those people are like and so your portrayal of them is is insulting to the people that you think you're portraying it is stupefying to the people who don't know what you're portraying and it just comes off as totally off color and totally bad and and that's the samsung stuff just feels that way but I think there is also you know we've got to admit that there is you said it's a trade show it's a trade event and and I think we're probably going to talk about this yesterday's yeah sandwich sexism kerfuffle yeah but I do think that in in our industry I mean let's just be on it's like we all know there are things that were battling in the industry of Technology and internet culture and and and technology culture and a lot of that stuff is sexism and like really late and sexism and racism and even not so late in sexism and racism and just like general general conditioning that is has been can I just say that this set right now is like super set up like a cross fire and I feel like I need to be arguing with Adrian yeah everything's fine why don't you ladies just shut up Adrian you're in support of women's rights Eli you feel women should have no right you said before the break a very hungry and I quote lock them away yeah and take them out only when we need them why your face double a quick me we can't get him some chicken I don't know that means I go to Paris yesterday and I did it really that's us that's not sure that's a SP I was a soften our situation but uh but uh but there is like this kind of this thing it's like Indian what's most frustrating about it is that people in the industry don't don't like what do you mean there's no problem our commenters drive me well commenters but also you know the people who are like we're colorblind there's no sexism you know my heritage Shane like CBS women would show up to our stuff that when women would be included it's like well women don't shop to yourself because you don't include them right because your home that's awesome it's like a little bit forgivable here because like you said before I was overt and the really insidious sexism in tech is the you know the more subtle the kind where it's just like it's it's not obvious and people are like oh what's the problem I don't see the problem and the problem is actually just that there's you know there's not women visible on stage there's not a you know the jokes are aren't as funny to women as they are to a room that's full of guys like it's like that kind of stuff that's worth so we should do if we're talking about jokes that aren't funny is it really anyone this controversy yesterday yes can you any launches yeah so we ran the Samsung piece and I actually think this is this story begins not at the controversy that yesterday or even what happened at this event the controversy for me begins at the immediate reaction to what happened in this event right yeah so we ran the Samsung story and we're like there's there sexism attack right it's like a thing that we've been talking about right and also but I chose it yes they're sexism attack and I think we can all say we could all do better everybody can get better at being better with like modern life yeah we're not we're not perfect when it comes to there's no sexism a NASCAR and I think we all yeah I mean we're not perfect anywhere Annika patrick has given through the glass I think we can clasp retaining wall we can all do better and be more cognizant of how we behave right was it right this is this is exactly right so we ran the story and there I got a lot of emails and then there was a forum thread and a lot of forum threads about why aren't you guys equally covering this Adria Richards story so Adria Richards was a developer evangelist for company called SendGrid is an email marketing company SendGrid they're actually over 100 employees they're not tiny right so it's like should with she's a developer evangelist for this company and she was at was boss unfortunately um was a developer evangelist for this company she was at a Python conference called pycon and she overheard two guys at another company I don't play Haven yes it from a company called play Haven sitting behind her telling jokes about dongles and forking repos it was like there is a sexual innuendo using the term dongle and I'm not gonna say I've never made a dongle joke and you know like cuz I can totally make dongle jokes all you know check out this huge dongle I mean that's basically kind of joke there it's all you can about my apologize Adrian go ahead gone uh wait I have to look up this exact headline okay while you're doing that this is important so she was thinking about it she likes saw a picture of like okay good which are you ready yeah for my uncle joke from January 18th 2011 Jack Dorsey's dongle growing in popularity you're fired like a beta beat headline that's in her still way we read that headline ah so good tune anyway she tweeted course there you go yeah you win we blew it here the big winner we should have run that head uh anyway so she took a picture of them she tweeted it like repeatedly and was like please Pikkon organizers come talk to these guys like I'm really uncomfortable with this yeah she made a big fuss when she written a child she she publicly shamed them she took a picture of them and tweeted it yeah and was kind of like hey this is not right sure anyway so they got kicked out on one of the guys who's still nameless I believe got fired the other guy didn't get fired nameless offender got fired it was finna got fired this story got picked up magically it arrived on like hacker news and paste bin uh and it just started just building and like controversy and like hatred and rage yeah until you know anonymous got involved well so it was a nanos anonymous it was just what nonnamous people but they call themselves and honest yeah well that's pointed you know the thing about anonymous that's so tricky is that carry not I think if anybody could say that anybody could use it well it's your right yeah that's why they ultimately anonymous like is gonna have severe problems in the future it's like what Leanne say to have severe problems but they're not so big that it's like a thing when there's like actual terrorist activity under the guise of a non this is going to be problematic anyway so I SendGrid was d dost Adria Richards herself to get deservedly so by the way because they fired her to write so then they fired right so they got they got she literally they threatened her company until it afraid she was fine yeah and there's a lot of hazy in there too and just to be clear what we're saying is that that she was attacked started be to be attacked online for issues report for getting this guy getting this guy fired when she did not ask anybody to do right um and and attacked in a way that wasn't like hey was wrong for you to shame those guys you should have told the organizers like that what you're a jerk for doing that I decide more and more and more like like you know you bitch how dare you you deserve to die like that way you guys are both gonna get flame emails i was i got one what all I did was tweet about it I mean I get all I did was tweet that russell brandom was writing a story yeah that's all I tweet you you don't understand what my inbox was like yeah I get a welcome to LA emails okay fair enough and I cannot even you know and i also have to get i also get emails for you guys yeah about your behavior because imagine because i'm supposed to be in charge of you hey you know the emails about your behavior really really circling I don't get emails that rifle start forward emails that are like you know Joe how can you allow Joe flatly to keep writing his liberal screed you know his stop stop letting Joe flatly push his agenda stuff like that so so also Joe flatly agenda was crazy as you know we read his post to know that he is in a major political agenda right Oh anyhow so they were violent mean nasty attacks that were way out of sync with the situation and a lot so my my tweet summary which i got paypal 42 was woman tweets about men creating hostile environment men respond by turning internet into the most awesome Byron posse yeah I think that's what happened with anyone mad at her degree of complaint that you know you should have just talked to them and in response we're going to literally tell you that you should kill yourself and take and remove like destroy your comp I mean there is there is this thing of well it's the Internet I mean when we were talking about headlines for that piece we were one of the first headlines was the Internet is terrible or something along those lines these lightly use that headline ones though it's true okay for killer every right to you that's like yeah it's like a series the interwar story series but there is this there is I just make that story strange the internet is terrible and just all like they're really rotten stuff and I like that idea there is this thing that that's just like it's so easy for these guys to just say whatever they want just say the first thing that comes to mind just you know and i know this is internet mentality but internet mentality needs to like chill out i mean basically the problem is that we are all going oh it's the internet it's like yeah the internet is life now like we're all there we're all living there I mean we work on the internet we live on the internet we communicate with everybody that we know on the internet so it's like you can no longer get away with hey it's the internet you know how that's how people get in a room full of people they wouldn't be that way and the Internet's a room full of people so it's like there needs to be some better than one way to excuse your description for the show we are talking and we're like no one in the actual situation seems particularly likable like right we should make clear we're not endorsing know they also do sighs I think she was I think that I think that that her did I decision do shame those guys instead of saying it's I do think she should have turned around and said hey guys i just thought would have been effective it would have been more effective made them think twice ii-i'm that situation I do feel like she overreacted by making it into a public thing when it should have been a conversation between three people right you know i mean that's in regular real life and maybe the internet has has dulled us in some way to these types of interactions but you know if you're sitting at a restaurant somebody next to you is saying something really offensive or upsetting i mean i've done this like every time we go out every time really bad okay or some he's being really loud or whatever you say listen I hate to bother you but if you could you know be a little quieter or you know hey what you just said it's really offensive could you keep it down I mean they don't meet a few times I remember I was standing in the deli um I stand in a deli ordering a sandwich and this guy next to me was talking to his friend he's like yeah you know I drew them down a little bit I was like listen I don't want to be a jerk but but that's really a pretty offensive and Jewish and it's not cool to say and he's like what would he talk he got really mad if he's we talking about I got a little have a lot of Jewish friends he actually said I was like okay well they probably in any way they probably think you're a dick you know try that hard oh yeah he's like that guide it was like a Hasidic Jew is standing there by some potato chips Eddie how terrible that happens it's New York but anyhow but the point is that that's in normal approach would be hey guys I think this is really offensive that I can hear you so can you keep Russell and I were like working on this piece um I was like you know in high school like you make these jokes like I was a boy in high school I've what I continued actually emotionally to be a boy in high school you were obliged school no I mean like the nature of social interaction as you learn what the boundaries of acceptable behavior yeah and this is just like that that's boundary setting but I was so on the flip side let me argue the please do contrapositive yeah I don't know what that means I don't either um but if we're saying but we're saying hard just just to prep just I want you to do this but just to cap off what what Adrian said and what you just said is that we're not we don't think anybody in this situation who's actually involved is like necessarily cool or greater likable or when I actually don't see why any of their the people who got fired was this is like a last straw situation I had open Brian I owe me but yeah so we're not I don't think this is not a question of defending one side of the other it's a question of like how the internet treats people right and how they mean a particular and in particular how men on the internet respond to and react to and treat women whether they like them or not right and I think that by extension women and I mean how men treat women in general whether they like them or not I think the Internet is just an amplified version of reality yeah well so here I think those reactions are and here's here's the different amplified publix and we're if if the the massive outrage that is taking place on Twitter and our comments and other sites and hacker news is about how she should have felt fine just turning around and telling them to shut up right maybe there's there is exist in the world like environments women don't feel comfortable doing that right yes and we are we have now turned the internet yeah like this place of fun impression in a roomful at a hacker conference in a room full of but that's that's assignment what I'm saying but like I think it goes it works in both places you know it we say like you should have turned around and said hey guys can you chill out that might not be an environment that's comfortable for a woman to turn around to two guys say hey guys can you chill out right you know I'm saying but we did would it what we've arrived at is like the vast amount of retribution here we'll chill the speech of other people regardless of what their complaint and it's not that the sad thing about is it's not new it's not infrequent it is basically the norm right you know it is the norm to shout somebody down when you don't like them or agree with them on the internet and it seems to be doubly severe and I'd say violent when it comes to women I mean it does there is this thing that's like a certain kind of subtle violence in it that is shocking and weird to me that's kind of scary looking I was looking for chance discussion why that it I mean fortune can't be counted on to not be but I was trying to get an idea of how many people really felt that strongly about it because and it's and it was really hard to tell because these are people who are very good at making themselves look like more people on the internet so like there's like this change.org petition that was signed by 1,500 people and you're like but are some of those yeah not really port edition uh fire fire adria richards and then it was like ah blow me and then it was like you know she was saying that people on Twitter who were uh arguing with her like somebody had made a fake Twitter account for a woman who was like arguing with adria it was like pretty obviously fake and then there's like there's all these arts and then there's emails and it's like but how many of these people are the same people is it's just like a group of five hundred like truly terrible guys or is it more than that yeah and it's and the interesting thing is it I mean it is kind of impossible to know and it does give to Academy you're actually looking for very specifically at things and you're thinking about this is but to a casual observer it's indistinguishable from reality well the fake the fake Twitter accounts and the fake petition is is not there's no way to verify that it's to say that it's not real right you know basically so you know it's it's it's a to me so the I read a lot of our comments and i got into twitter arguments last night which was stupid and I apologize far goofy on Twitter last night I don't really apologize but I given this context I feel as I should not apologize I'm not apologizing I never apologized never apologize wrong you are uh and so here's the this the thread the strain that I picked up on that was I thought was very interesting um which is basically like I'm a really shy guy and I feel very uncomfortable speaking to women and now I feel like if I say the wrong thing they there they wield so much power in this environment of feminism that they will get me fired that's the idea the I yeah yeah yeah and I think that's so like deeply weird and wrong and it's it's like it's it's shyness and fear now mixed with like a different kind of fear uh Russell was saying to me like this when he was writing a piece he was like there's something very old here where it's like they keep saying he's a father of three without assigning many other qualities yeah so he's like this like breadwinner noble father figure yeah taking down on this woman's go iowa came and cut off his hair exactly and it's like that's crazy like this is the oldest kind of like sexist like it is worried there is something i was just thinking as you were saying that like it's weird that we're almost having to like relearn lessons yeah or deal with things that you think are like in reality have been most not most not totally dealt with but are more dealt with you know it's just mean you know that in an office environment in certain environments like there are there gonna be guys who say the wrong things or do the wrong things or ya asses to women you know that's going to exist right and they're gonna be women who are meaner than they need to be or whatever like yeah those are people that exist in the world but like overall like I don't walk into rooms full of men and women and think that there's gonna be like we don't all know how to speak to one another none i think it's like it's like this is a meander all yo really is i think that's it i think it's um it's i think what's what's happening here and this is just pop psychology so it's forgive me pop armchairs happen on psychology psychology there's it's a group of women or a group of men who are saying why why do we have to recognize this like pervasive sexism in the world when we already feel women have so much power over us because we're so afraid of them we don't oughta talk you think it's a type it's a type I think it's a type of person matter cause you couldn't talk to girls in high school yeah and now they can i desert some palette i also have a little hesitation at ascribing this type like saying trying to pinpoint a title that's what i was reading or and over but i think it's much I get that there is those may be the loudest voices I think but I think there's a picture I think I think that's what drove this particular incident into the spotlight because like Adria Richards is not a perfect spokesperson or the other side right so i think it was like this hardcore group of people who had this like very visceral reaction but who is who is driving in this case who is the perfect spokesperson I mean you look at you know what was the girl's name sandra fluke she did one of the brush number called a oh yeah the right to Planned Parenthood the plan right and this is this is this is like part of the problem and I'm saying like that you could say it's a type and maybe those are the loudest voices but we have you know widespread issues in this department like you don't call a guy you don't find whatever the equivalent of is forgot there is no equivalent as far as I know which is part of the problem with whatever I but you know Rush Limbaugh you know Rush Limbaugh uh calling someone a for something that is I mean there's no is no reason for him to do it it's just like he wanted to be mean and he wanted to like hurt a woman and so he found like a really great hurtful word and I think that that type of mentality is is like kind of bubbling under the surface it's not just with guys who you know couldn't talk to girls in high school it's with guys who are in positions of power it's with regular guys once you know I mean I threaten you definitely got some what evolved you have to be somewhat evolved in your brain has to be somewhat evolved to not think that way and feel that way I'll friend you like that you like to think that we get to that point me all the people that I know I feel pretty confident that the people in our company at our company don't feel that way and don't walk through life having these kinds of insane weird dated like Neanderthal thoughts but I mean I'm sorry I mean except for you but um but but you know I'll be other people don't a lot of other people don't the problem is that the internet gives them amplification it gives them illusion of sighs I think in many instances and it and it is that and that's the thing we are the headline ended up being thug mentality which is like you know a mob can be good and bad there are good moms and begging a crowdfunding is a mob doing great things yeah um you know tomorrow I use a lot doing bad things this to me is like a mob of thugs yeah and and that that mentality that mindset needs to be squashed it really does yes i think it's it's it's super hurtful to the people who are victims of it heard the direct targets of it but it's also i mean it's look I mean you say what you will about anonymous and you know this kind of citizen you know this these the Rising Voices of the citizenry there is a lot of negative that goes along with it and it's not just like cut and dry that we say like oh it's great that we can organize and push our ideas and our agenda forward it's it needs to be more than just we have a group so let's use them need to be like what is the group for what is the group do what do we stand for what what will we and won't we tolerate it's cool like I think that's the thing about the anonymity of the internet which I support which I think needs to be there but you get to a point where you start to say okay anonymous is a group of what is it what does it stand for you want to be formless like water well if you're formless like water then you're also terrorists and not everybody who thinks that anonymous can do good things wants to be a terrorist right they want to do good things you know they want a petition for and fight for the things that are really valuable so you get into situations like this and it's like you either going to take shape or not and I think part of the problem with the internet is anonymity gives you it's easy to take a vague form but not a specific form and it totally reminded me of I mean this was the terrorist attack kind of an like Russell made this point that you know SendGrid like gave in like you're not supposed to negotiate with terrorists but syndra didn't even try to do that they just gave in I mean at first I had this theory i was like maybe it's a fake firing and they're just trying to get the hackers off their back yeah and they're gonna be like haha now where l shored up like bring it on we're hiring her back or we never fired her in the first place like we're standing by her no but no that didn't I mean I actually think that so I mean she's I feel like this is not a fire bowl I mean again it feels like she has a pattern she might have a pattern but he might like it's really it's really pretty raw for them to say like hey we you're fired because we think you somehow now are threatening our business public firing is a big deal a public Myron is a bikini for both of these people be surprised if there's no compile something well yeah I'm kind of wrongful termination both of these firings I'm sure there were reasons beyond this incident but the timing is awful and stupid on the behalf of the companies like if i worthy you know if let's say something like this happened and i had to let somebody go because of some terrible situation that occurred on the internet they said something racist and horrible or whatever I wouldn't I mean I don't know if I would take that moment when it was when when tempers were hottest to let them go no no I definitely let simmer down unless you're negotiating right unless you're like oh she ate here like peace offering for you like which is which is like I think if it was something that's so obvious like man this like if it wasn't me was just can I do a firing transition here obviously racist or something like you might go look this person is obviously bad a bad person to have here we don't want them around this is not and we want publicly disassociate right but nothing about these these two people is is publicly obvious that they're terrible people and that's the thing that the firing on the bath of the guy makes him seem more terrible than he was probably and her fiery makes her seem more terrible which just fuels the fire of this this artist debate in a bad way I think right anyhow so I'm going to say we have a hard out I know we have a heart we have a heart stopped today because somebody else has to do a show because we have since we have a fancy new studio visit is scheduled so speaking an iron i was late it's all weird that's a weird fedex fedex well there's two things and no Chris she's gonna go ahead join us on skype so on Andy Rubin left Android last week you did a big profile over the weekend tell us about it what you learn what why hung boy leave why did homeboy leave um basically Android got he Android outgrew him I grew his abilities and he stopped being the kind of work that he wanted to do yeah um so it's I still don't know whether the initiative first came from andy rubin side or whether it first came from larry page or somewhere else at Google but um somebody I didn't put this in the story about somebody close to the situation would know said Andy could have stayed at Android yeah um so it might have just come purely from him he might have gone a gone to Larry Page and said you know I'm ready to do another thing we still don't know that but um it does seem clear that the whole Android experiment had gotten to a new phase a more complicated phase like one of the lines in story was that the way forward was less clear um and he was Andy Reubens like kind of more of an entrepreneur startup guy he gets he's like the first leg of the relay race yeah um and he did a great job also and it's totally brilliant um but yeah I just got to the point where he was no longer interested in the the types of problems that were confronting Android which had to do a lot with working with other people well it turns out that it's it's funny because you've got Sinofsky and forestall and now Reuben Reuben wasn't fired or let go he didn't quit he's moving to industry google he's moving to another project Google and a secret project and I think this is in your ops this is in your story this is in your historian and I've heard as well that that what he's doing is from sources familiar with the matter that that what he's doing is him is important right it's not like it's like he's going to do uh you know they're gonna shuffle him off into the background that eventually he's gonna leave to go starting to do everything to start the history of Android suggested what he's best at is like we have this crazy idea go make it a success yeah like how much money do you need what we trust you well that was kind of the gist of Adrian's articles that like he's really good at the starting part and maybe gets a little bogged down when you get into the right now and I can go in there has it has material has real problems like it is it a real classroom dancer in a way that is like striking dan frommer wrote something on splat F on his blog with spliff it's bleph but um about sort of you know what the issues are with android you're right it does and I was reading it today as i was perusing but but he made some great points and i think there is a point to be made that android does have real problems that it's getting you know it's disappeared behind the brands of samsung and amazon whoever else grabs it and uses it it's not a profit Center for them it's not making the money they don't they can't exert control over it right I don't know how much is playing into search I assume a ton I mean everybody who has an android phone is using google to search unless you've some for some strange reason about the fascinate on verizon which comes pre-loaded with Bing um which a lot of people bought weirdest phone Robert no that was the one that that's the phone that went up against the iphone went up verizon have the iphone no yes that is the medical side I no more pills the droid the original droid was they know that was that was that's pretty much the original droid that was we're gonna that's you know anyway that's bragging volume parties in these details the point that I was making is that my mic is like sliding I don't don't happen in here um what was I said what was I saying oh and crossbones yeah it is at a crossroads and and but i don't i just got a mental image of the little robot like at an actual cross just saying their left or right what am I gonna do name one of those kind of yeah can that robot look sad yes I've only ever seen the mouth goes his mouth he doesn't have a mouth it's kind of like where his head connect yeah but it basically goes all the way around it I don't know how it could frown yeah his eyes could probably do sigh mean I definitely seem like cartoons of that like the little robot like it's like staking an apple like in the face if you have a if you have an image of the Android looking sad at a crossroad that a crime either at a crossroads you're looking sad please send i'm looking into my camera here if you want to use it because i'm addressing I'm addressed in here if you have an image of the Android looking sad or standing at a crossroads looking sad send it to a verge cast at the verge calm yeah we'd love to see it you'll get also tweet at us yeah at ten i had at verge thanks in advance yes thank thank say please and thank you uh but yes so android doesn't problems but they've but they've put in sundar what is his last name is Pete Pete Rock epic I ok I just want to make sure I had it right yeah I was there's an end in there hi when I see it I immediately think of Pikachu so it's a real problem which is a Pokemon if somebody can make the android robot looks like a Pikachu I think we'd that definitely exists I need to see that as well please send it to vered verge cast at the verge calm up and what is what is your take on him as a leader on sundar Pichai yeah he seems a lot a smoother a lot um so Andy Rubin is a technical guy and he's sort of unusual and that he was able to do both like about halfway through his career he was an engineer at first he was at Apple a couple other places and then about halfway through his career he transitioned in management and then eventually became CEO danger and then later Android and was the head of Android and it was able to manage a lot of people yeah this is ruben and so like that's pretty unusual to be able to take a company to the point where he took danger and and also like be basically a technical guy at heart so but sundar seems like more of an advanced leader like you know he's he's like a product manager Mourinho type he is really smooth and we've I've talked to him a handful of times and he does a lot of the he just he did a bunch of google i/o presentation the fig he did a really long one last year I can't remember but he's been running chrome and apps yep and I mean you gotta say it to of Google's most important yeah most valuable business I mean apps has been their whole thing has been we got to take on Microsoft right we got to take on office and then I think that they've been making some inroads I mean that's my strong feeling immediately really wow that is that is really that's details at a 3d rendering do that on a hand or can get this on the screen I feel like somebody just had that on hand I I don't that wasn't made for us but anyhow but he is um he's a real leader he's very even-keeled like it my impression of him is that I mean Andy Rubin seems like he could have you know he could be a bit mercurial in the sense that he seems like not a hothead but he's very passionate yeah and and sins are seems like smooth he's really funny thing cucumber sad android email this one's crying is a smooth as a cuke of her i said he is cute she is a cutie upper sundar is a cucumber if i could get on a shop of that so obviously the wow with so many these it's happening are they pouring in yeah they're good uh anyhow so that the we there's some breaking news we need to address oh well queer we have chris sigler on the phone oh my god but before we do that it's like this moment now earlier today we've got Chris but just to wrap this up okay the big now thats indoors in charge of both the obvious speculation is that they're going to merge android with chrome OS which i think they're gonna do very soon and you I think it's far off you think it's far off I think it's Farah first of all I think it would be hard to do and the the thing about the Android team is that they're kind of there like running at breakneck pace there and they're trying to keep their head above water training you know they're having trouble coordinating getting updates out to all the carriers and they're they're just going really fast and they don't really have time to stop and integrate with the chrome OS team yeah I think I agree that it'll be a lot would be a long time before that happens I think Eric Schmidt just denied that's impossible that I think it's possible that Chrome OS could begin to get some Android functionality there's nothing stopping I mean there's there's you could see a situation where they have an emulator and you're taking this look they just made the Chromebook pixel it's got basically the same resolution touchscreen as a samsung as the nexus 10 which is a touchscreen android tablet you could see a situation where they say like hey you have a touchscreen it's running a google OS you can run your tablet out on on the screen do full screen you know apps or do the windowed as stand-alones as you know in whatever emulator they cook up or however they do that that to me seems like a i almost kind of can't figure out the explanation for the pixel otherwise yeah and i think that so that's what I'm expectancy at i/o which would that would come from the Chrome OS team right like I mean it with a Malaysian would be a discrete collaboration with it I mean it's not like you don't need the whole Android team to implement android on and right you need some help yeah I mean duh good buddy I mean oh and right and then already and that already you know it's obvious that Android is easy to get up and running on just about anything you wanted to run on yeah so but it's but that's it x86 right are there any difficulties there I guess they've got android for x86 and uh Motorola's shipping and brightens and you know who owns motorola yeah google it's all coming together it's all happening they're gonna make finally this plan and plot notable individuals going oh I know what they're gonna do they're gonna make a new yeah they're gonna do make a new hey Trix right there runs that is a Chromebook and Android I'm metro area here tonight breaking there's your breaking news can I just check by saying I believe motor oil acquisition is complete fiddle here I don't think yeah I don't think it's yet that's it so that's other thing I think is interesting i know we have to move on but i think i think what would be really exciting and interesting is if andy rubin decided to take a major leadership role in turning google's hardware business into a real hardware business instead of that would be cool instead of like ugly fake hardware business which it is now which it seems like you'd be into um you know he was hoping that Google would be able to sell phones directly to people over the internet which did not work right so it seems like and they have and there are some things happening now I think there is and by the way well we're pregnant I know we have at the FCC is that we're talking about yeah that's okay well as gonna say there are changes having at the FCC you know we are kind of at a new going towards a new age the government wants you to be able to unlock your phones you know there's definitely a new age of awareness of the need for interoperability and people are no longer I think just thinking of phones is something they buy their carrier I do feel like there's an opportunity they botch the Nexus Q they've had some success with the Nexus 7 maybe some success with the nexus for the 10 i can imagine has not sold anything because they just started promoting it there's at least one out there because i got mine stolen that's true needle eyes was stolen so mad about but but but to see them do what closer to what Apple or Microsoft is doing or rim at this point which is like hey we're we're actually really involved in this not just LG has aspect that we're a chassis they were going to pull for our next phone because let's be honest that's they did they talk about working really closely together but I don't believe that and if you look at the Galaxy Nexus and you look at the nexus for you see the chassis of a phone that already exists that's already going to market in some other form that's just been given like a slightly different yeah form basically so I would like I would like to see that happen I think they can do it I think they should do it I think the Chromebook pixel is an incredible piece of hardware yeah I wish it was more functional because I like it more like if you wanted to have more android stuff I like it more physically than my than my macbook air my macbook vandread was as good at the web as chrome and Chrome OS was as good at apps as Andrew yeah there's something there okay let's get Chris on yup you got it we were let's get dressed let's get Chris for this breaking news no power hey oh my god buddy hi Chris Chris how are you how is everyone do we not have a still frame of Chris's face that we can put up on the screen we do not have one I've just been in forest here I can pull up Chris's picture on my computer and turn around you can uh Chris tell us what's happening with our government is going down that's a pretty broad question this happens every what's going on to CPI what did Obama something's going on in Cyprus yes Obama is in Jordan today I believe know so um Julius Genachowski our esteemed FCC chairman for the past four years has announced that he is stepping down and this should come as a surprise to no one because his term was up in July anyway it's just that he is stepping down a little early and there's some speculation Washington Post which of course is a Washington dc-based publication has been covering this pretty closely really you need to stop you didn't say I I'm just glad I could be watching to say it if you have never lived on the planet Earth they've been covering this situation very closely for the past couple weeks a Republican Commissioner FCC Commissioner just stepped down a few days ago and there's speculation that Julius was waiting for him to step down to tip the balance of the voting in the Democrats favor oh but that's that's just speculation at this point so okay we'll see what happens janikowski is replacement has been named yet so to me interesting few weeks for for people who follow this kind of thing so Neil I you you know Julia star I'm just checking my package is very important you know Julius you guys are good buddies we are we've talked uh you have spent a lot of time together you summer together in the Hamptons what do you make of this how will this impact the the world um so you know I think Julius has had a mixed tenure I would call it I think he's he's been very successful at the broad strokes of he's turned the FCC from being this super corporate like a regulatory agency the talks to like mediate disputes between satellite companies and cable companies and like talks about technical standards of like RF transmission which they still do but he has made it a consumer-facing agency like they're out there they're talking about cell phone unlocking they're talking about broadband across America they're talking about what our standards should be well but but but but it also comes at a time I'm not to take it away from him but it also comes at a time when the awareness of those things as an important right now I'm not saying I mean like I you know the timing was right and I think he was I think as much as he could have he did he was the right guy but they're incredibly there an incredibly lobbied incredible of any of our government I create mean Chris and I sit sit around dreaming of things the FCC could do yeah in our private moments yeah and they don't I ever knew here they're heavily lobbied by right private interests right by the way Neil I I cherish our private moments can I just do you also summer in the Hamptons with Whitney like our and Julius but you know I'm I I feel like they've done almost nothing so I disagree with you right there yeah I also do whoa uh well no I mean if you think about the things that you guys had time to talk about this at the beach house yeah well Julius got to me yeah i mean like look they presided over the 700 megahertz auction yeah which went pretty badly and except for the fact that there's LTE like no no they don't say they sold united states that you need the world all the things but the things that that that the things that they should have done to protect consumers right choice no for that in that office is working we're definitely and this is what I'm saying is that happened I Chris that happened during kevin martin's tenure right yeah Julia took it over did so that happened during the previous commissioners tenure so he took over the implementation of this thing that happened right so like they so they sold the spectrum de Vries and now we've got to build it out and that's when he began turning the FCC into this consumer organization right where they're saying we need net neutrality where they're saying we need massive broadband deployment you've got to stop playing with each other go ahead sad android is fine go on uh no and that's what he started talking about what the SEC needs to do in order to protect consumer interest and I think he lost a lot of battles like I lost that net neutrality man he lost a ton of battles and I mean maybe he could never have won them in the first place right but it's you know I'd love to see an FCC that's a lot more brutal to carriers right well I have to say I think that I think that Julius Genachowski legacy is going to be the failed AT&T t-mobile merger which is obviously seen by most is a huge win for consumers yeah and t-mobile is a resurgent carrier now at least they appear to be all right I mean are they do we have any data to back that they're gonna watch LTE or doing all that uncarrier stuff right yes there's a spectrum position is much much stronger than it was 12 or 18 months at what point can I confidently switch to t-mobile for great LTE service 18 months oh really I'll be dead in 1881 I but no but Chris like I agree I mean you think that will be his legacy the just his legacy is is is ending something which i think is interesting well yeah I mean I think that's the the most sort of blockbuster Hollywood thing that happened during his tenure for lack of a better word yeah it was a big deal yeah I mean anything it was good but I think there were a lot of places where he you know I mean look maybe the instant possible forces you to him at the government chamber knows is in the government what know what I think is interesting is that you know the he transition I don't think we ever talked about the FCC when we were at engadget we probably like Chris and I would run like we definitely did the 700 megahertz whether there's a huge story but like we never talked about it I painstakingly photoshopped an ebay auction that was for the 700 megahertz bad when they're like you know uh you know highest rated seller and I have like that's very funny it said look and it had like now I gotta get it hey puss puss yeah a plus closet no look I think I think he loved this transition where the FCC started stopped being a technical standards organization which is what they were yeah and they started being this like we're in the mix like the internet was this vast unregulated space and like now like we need to like decide how people in the united states are going to get connected it's true ass they're going to connect what the companies that that regular that control those connections can and can't do and how we want our economy to work in this way you know the phrase app economy which I know you and I both hate that phrase came from Julius Genachowski but it's like real it's might have been it might possibly it might have been quietly slid across the desk yeah Tim showed up at the FCC is saying I don't know if he invented that turn Bob anyhow unfortunately we have to end it here i will say that to your point on a final note about janikowski i don't want to give him no credit i do think there were some things that you did that really worked and i think that you're right about the perception of the FCC as a they've moved into they are now some raw more like a defender and a defender of consumer interest and i will say this still the only regular person the FCC twitter account follows chris sigler that's it yes double check for you today buddy that's weird yeah that was a little hot rated and I don't follow you know I asked the last time I saw Julie I suggested we were doing he said yes all right I I stayed away I want to preserve my integrity Ziggler unfortunately we got it we have to wrap up we're out of time and and people are gonna start coming here with forklifts and remove us that would be kind of cool actually let's wait it out they've escaped us up virg studio occupation yeah we're gonna head you saw you pledge to the dash cash Eddie and by is I do apologize for being late way I will not be late next time anyhow that's the verge cash for this week if you want to get in touch with us you can email us at verge cast at the verge com send your Android sad Android photos you can find us on twitter at verge you can leave a comment on the post when it goes up we're also all on twitter Neil I is reckless I'm Joshua Topolsky woody what is you are you a dr jeffrey a dr Jefferies what is that what is the ADR I'm suggesting is it just your a dr. Jeffreys that's amazing it's just just a condensed version of your right your name interesting and I said verge you could find the verge on Twitter what else any other messages I need to share with the people no no Paul Miller still alive Paul Miller's fine he just did an interview Douglas rushkoff which you should you should walk that actually it's really good about present shock and which is not getting presents of being shocked about them I mean I have to say whoever sent me this gift of the Santa Android gotta you gotta wrap it up you're my favorite anyhow that's our show for the week we back next week and as always I wish you and your family the very best this weekend rock'n'roll