Gadgetory

Hey and welcome to the verge cast for the week of March 25th I'm Josh Topolsky I'm Nilay Patel I'm Ross Miller and we're back for you and only for you Joe you're this is your cast the Joe cast and yeah we're back on the verge cast when we discuss the week in technology culture internet culture and culture culture which is which is uh currently developing there you go it's always developing it's always developing and and we had a big week interesting week crazy week sexy week yeah a week of a week I would say drenched in sex yes yeah and love yeah and also in other things unrelated to either of those yeah what'swhat's what do we whoa time on this week well I was celebrating the Lord smiting the Egyptian people with plagues I had a Passover sorry I was gonna talk about this a little bit then we'll get ya back home for Passover for a Passover Seder which is the traditional Passover dinner which look goes on for 15 hours straight and and I have to say you know I really enjoyed there's a part of the of the Seder where you list off the plagues that were visited upon the houses of Egypt yeah you know it's like locusts famine death of the firstborn of course is the most important moment yes the wings feed you got a phone you got a Windows Phone that only one can be upgraded to 7.8 you're a woman on the internet that's one of the plagues it's just an interesting thing that to do like it's a very morbid I mean a lot of the Jewish holidays are very and by the way I'm an atheist I'm not really I'm not a practicing Jew I was raised so I got you know my parents could give me a big guilt trip if I don't participate but it's just a morbid holiday full of horrible stories and and you know Kenny bread right it's not the best yeah I did get pretty drunk though yeah that's my flip side drunk on we drink we drink a type of a type of alcohol called slivovitz which is like a family tradition it's a I think it's a plum brandy yeah it is disgusting they will burn your inside definitely sounds like you to drink enough of it to stop forget that yep and dream we also my father my brother out I just had a terrible pain in my leg for no repair that was incredible this is pain as it's going on to know my father my brother made a horseradish yeah okay Lorraine as it's known yeah and I talked heard it a little because it tasted really bad when they finish with it horseradish well you put a little vinegar and salt in it to give it a little bit of flavor because otherwise it's just like burns it's just burning just a burning sensation I'm gonna stretch it out I'm gonna you know what I was driving yesterday so maybe I did something I don't know what what Helen was like the trip like six hours yeah six and a half would do it I don't know yeah that's weird I get a shot of slimovitz yeah this is totally unrelated to anything that we're supposed drunk is related to our first story it is do it or potentially related oh I would say so I would say the news of the week without question yeah was t-mobile's relaunch of itself and nothing about the news of its relaunch was actually news yeah they announced that the pricing plans were available that you know the iPhone 5 is like great another carrier at the iPhone 5 yeah they'd set a bunch of this stuff at CES what was news about it was their incredibly aggressive like marketing around it and then the CEO the new CEO of t-mobile John Legere oh it's Legere was yeah very sexy came onto stage and just begin ranting about the wireless industry and actually said at one point we have to stop the yeah he swore a lot he said he said that the the way you know how carriers are nice to you is a crock of and and it was very very I was very wrong I was very raw very unkind of unprecedented in this industry yeah we have a little bit we have a little bit of a supersuit yeah we have a supercut of this take a look at take a look at what he was up to on stage any second there we go we're unleashing everything we're gonna talk about this today but please stop the sorry I promised myself I wasn't gonna swear today Elizabeth wherever you are your father didn't mean that I've been at this business for about 33 years but I don't have wireless industry experience and after a while I went home and I said to myself holy I don't have wireless industry experience what am I gonna do and it suddenly dawned on me there's not a god damn person in the world besides a wireless industry person that would understand why the hell this mess works this way and the worst fear of the wireless industry is that somebody from outside AHS comes in and starts looking at their industry I've already told you about the spaceship and the aliens coming in it doesn't make sense unbelievable high prices how the hell can that cost that much unless you're gonna drive it I mean come on that nasty guy on the end that's print and you you got to see that the day you go in that store they love you it's like you know oh you got to have this phone we're gonna be so good to you here's a free t-shirts and balloons by the way need a back rub maybe that's just me you who pay so much for your phones it's incredible everybody's blogging holy crap I can't believe you just said that oh he said that's how I lost the family pool I bet he'd only swear five times the it was very spirited very good stuff unfortunately here's the thing and we did some math and I did some personal math because I was like this is I'm fired up yes I got LTE they're expanding their network they have these new pricing plans they're selling the iPhone for a hundred bucks they're selling that one which I'm using for a hundred bucks this is great I'm switching yeah and then I went and I did some math and it's actually would be more expensive to for me to switch because you have because you have a family plan no I have a regular a single regular cool bachelor plan me it's you know there's four people on my family Brian yeah multiple device you know I don't i pads and all kinds of stuff no but if you get it if you get a if you get an iphone it's like you know the unlimited plan is seventy bucks yeah plus twenty four having an iPhone right there playing now plus twenty four having their 4G service that here's the thing that plus twenty traveling the often that's that's the big thing that they're doing is they're saying we're no longer just pricing in the subsidy for the phone it's the price of the plan right because 18t you pay however much per month for the service yeah and it there's a subsidy built in to that always okay right t-mobile saying you can either pay the twenty eight bucks a month for us to subsidize your phone or you cannot pay it and if you don't pay it but that's $600 well right but if you already have a phone okay sure right or if you get to the end of two years yeah you're all the way paid off or you're like you find a hundred you're in this you're about the same as Verizon and middle ground people come and don't have a phone right they're not bringing a phone it's like I want to get new service and I need a new phone I think what t-mobile's here is like they're not trying to be cheaper they're calling themselves cheaper because everyone does that but I've always been cheaper no it's pretty close so I mean it's just more transparent yeah I know what I'm paying for like what's the deal so haunted so I get an eigen iPhone right I pay $100 to the phone upfront am i paying the twenty dollar subsidy fee yes I'm paying the seventy dollars unlimited everything yeah I'm paying the other 20 there's another $20 for like their 4G service for the hotspot yeah no no they turn for the hotspot for four gigs of hotspot which is which is lower than cheaper than what you pay it but for some how it still worked out to more money for me because I don't need unlimited minutes unlimited messages that not a trick okay what I really want it's like 900 minutes and a thousand messages because I'm not ever going to use them right but they don't do that so it ends up being more expensive because you think you're get any more but long as sure it is I'm on two months I'm on t-mobile I hate it yeah I'm like I don't want this anymore what happens you don't have a contract so that ends yeah and then you have to give your phone back to them okay and they give you a fair market credit for it which they refuse to explain how that's gonna work right and you're on the hook for whatever the difference is you do give the phone back to them yep and then you pay for the phone you have to pay for whatever the difference between the remaining in the end you pay five seventy nine for the phone right by I get my iPhone ice after two months I'm like I hate this I'm out of here right I say I you can have the phone back yep they're like give me $500 well no no no you'll get you'll get they'll give you some credit which are calling a fair market value credit huh so that's a mystery imagine what for what credit oh of what for like your phone yeah but the phone is your only only paid for it but what you're giving them the property back right yeah so then you are yeah yeah you only owe them what they're saying the difference between the market value of the phone is from the 500 that you have but they're giving you money is what you're saying no you're just paying them less money you're giving them some money yes right so you're sipping them four hundred dollars instead of six hundred you give them the phone back yeah you still have to pay it off you have to pay about some amount but they're not clear doesn't sound a great deal to me that doesn't sound like you're getting out scot-free you have to pay for the amount that you've used the phone right I mean like the phone's value has decreased I guess so was different so they're gonna let me have a phone to do whatever I wanted with it and I but I think this is interesting because the ultimate goal here is that you buy a phone the other way you buy a laptop yeah you decouple ud comment you want to de couple the phone purchase from the from the service part right and I can't take that you know they can't do that straight away all right because can't say our phones cost $539 right that they would suicide but I can so they have to provide some sort of path they want people like me who have a one I'm like you know I'm getting off 18 see a service in the iPhone guy phones are going to work across 18 teen t-mobile assume you can get unlock you know if you have an iPhone an 18 teen you get unlocking you know used on t-mobile they're like scrambling to make part of a network compatible if 18 TS 4G and LTE yeah so there's when do we when do we see like a viable new network from t-mobile like how far off I feel like that's we're 2014 maybe you have a t-mobile network that can compete right so what they're saying is it's a hundred million customers that will have LT access or these like kinda million citizens yes that could have it my first half of the year two hundred million by the end of the year I mean here's the thing I have a TTL to either services their coverage is pretty bad it's bad like like you you go a few seconds outside of any major metropolitan area I was outside it was 10:00 in midtown Manhattan yeah I walked ten minutes away from the office for an errand today and I had 4G the whole way it's like what do you mean 4G fake fortune yeah you know I mean I have in in my neighborhood I get 4G when I'm going over the bridge and stuff it's just like it's gone yeah and and and even a little bit further out into the neighborhood it's gone so so in Verizon is amazing I mean Verizon's network is their penetration is amazing right so t-mobile I feel like is so far off they they can say 100 million but they mean like a hundred many people who might drive through a certain area well I get for ours if cars on your market so I mean look they've got a long ways to go I think what's really interesting about this whole story from the beginning is not there's no way for them to win now right but I think whose years like put himself on the map like he's famous now yeah he stood on stage and called all of his competitors he literally called and all of a the only problems that he didn't back it up with a really any kind of astounding saving I think what would have been amazing is he said like look you're gonna save a thousand dollars over two years but you're not in some cases you might but overall it's the savings are like a couple hundred bucks well I think if you're the sort of person who buys who wants a new phone every year and I think a lot of people think this podcast but I want to buy every year I think there is some built-in there for you because you get to give the phone back and you don't have to pay the $700 feed you know the off-contract that's true yeah I think service you have to deal with t-mobile I mean I don't know anybody who's like I love I mean I see people all the time tweeted me t-mobile so great I love it it's awesome in my area but all the people that I know people who live in New York people who are in our industry I've never heard anybody really say anything a few civil because they put out the Nexus 4 dollars per month anymore right and I feel like the Google campus they've got just like towers everywhere and they're just going for it and they it's like literally a bubble is foreign and it was like it's really free time is great I get 21 down it's like yeah on the Google campus mhm which is like almost literally a bubble yeah you know there's no real world it's like one yeah not terrible I mean like the you know they they brag about this 42 down but it's not there yeah yeah I don't I've never seen anything room but I think it's a baby stuff you know I'm like this is what Google has been trying to do with the Nexus program they've Auto really failed to do it because they're not a carrier it makes sense what Google couldn't do it and t-mobile can do it but the idea that you will buy a phone and the age of the custom high-end phone is like kind of over right it's no longer AT&T captivate Verizon fascinate it's just the g18 Verizon which whose phones are littered with AT&T and Verizon yeah the only army only for AT&T and Verizon right like the Droid DNA well yeah but that has to come to an end does it not a Verizon AT&T stay on top I mean but their phones are the same the GS 4 is the same the iPhone is obviously the same it's the same like you can't buy one is the same everywhere except for for a isin of course let's let's define like sound like the chance for is gonna have different radios for the verizon model you won't be able to take it to AT&T right but with this this age of like I you can only get certain phones on certain carriers at least from the the perspective of the average consumer you gets it it's already been decoupled a little I mean what we need to do is just come up with you know real prices for phones and just say this is what it's gonna be so I think that consumers won't buy first if you get an iPhone for free or $99 you're not gonna buy an iPhone for $500 right you're always gonna take this you look at least in this country I can't speak to everywhere else but I think this is a country that loves credit right we love being on credit we love getting like pay buy now pay later right I decided up for this PayPal service it's called pay later you know it's like if the whole idea is like don't you know it's pay for it now yeah we got you got you covered yeah I I don't even know why I didn't have to sign up for it I just wanted to know all right now I want to not give any much money for time it's a kind of a procrastination thing I like long walks on the beach yeah I love ice cream and I love paying later yeah pain later that's my thing but I just think like it tell people to break themselves of that habit yeah it's but it's also tough you know it's a lot of money for money if you actually get people to pay which you create a market yeah once you create a market price for it at 250 so what it is the pig is 215 somebody just say something yeah no 300 the aim is 300 to $40 to me am i whispering in her ear okay what's it yeah it's way cheaper than a 600 or $700 if you look at Verizon the droid DNA is almost like $700 oh it's on track yeah but here's so here's the thing with that is you have to get consumers to act in their own self-interest you're basically trick them in doing it and a teen teen Verizon are really good at tricking you into acting against your interest by saying the phone is free just sign this to your contract and we've baked in these huge subsidies I'm always I'm always wonder why people don't act on their own self-interest like when people vote for Republicans no I'm like I think I think why are you doing this year why do you want to have it worse do you want to just say that there are a lot of let's just say across the political landscape there are many politicians Democrat and Republican who will you know people are like I'm voting for this guy because you know this weird thing that they really want and it's like that issue is actually really bad for you and they're like I don't care I just he said it's good so I mean this is baselet email try I'm coming back yes please you don't know my deep hatred for all Republicans but so if you look at just listen I loved all people in America all outside of America get out of my face not interested sorry I played bioshock infinite like for hours like let's just say it's about America yeah and only America we're doing a my mind from that game though yeah okay the the state of America you know the first Bioshock that I bought or so math like now ten dollars on Amazon you've not played the original BioShock it's a great it's not one of the greatest videos I meant to play I haven't played any of them anyway it is so good you should play it yes if you go like so we have Topshop coming up after the show right yes wandering wandering wandering on New York talking people about their cell plans for top shelf and I ran and one guy who's from from London I was like how much she pay for your service and I was like would you would you switch for cheaper service he's like yeah I pay $10 a month for my cell service it's unlimited every hey London is like the size Rhode Island what is the size of Rhode Island but it's because they buy the service separately from the phone actually the whole really he's like I love this phone it's totally sold out all through the UK well I just crazy I guess Microsoft is right well that's actually interesting right I mean that that's part of this is Microsoft would have an easier time he found the market the Lumia that's really interesting I mean it was really easy to find him it was like bright blue yeah from England yeah huh I thought that was like kind of an AT&T thing it was awesome I think it literally we saw him like all of us Jordan and Iraq walking around or like that one so I wonder like how much did he pay for that loom you you full price but like okay what is that for 5500 me 14 pounds I don't know there's a competition for those devices as well so like Carphone Warehouse in the UK sells a cheaper than like Tesco that's enough competition iPhone even like because the carriers are in pricing competition against each because people can just swap the device TVs and computers you mean like every other player like everything that we buy like ours right from a different price from a different dealer right for different like everything else but it's funny because the the cell carrier I mean we've been ranting on this forever they've completely insulated themselves in this realm it's so boring yeah I mean all the FCC needs to do is just smash this whole thing just say like we can do you can't do this anymore Julius is that man yeah I know who's gonna step in to fix it some some lobbyists former Verizon heard miss Sigler FCC chair I would support that and I believe you know though his his background is riddled with drug abuse I think that overall he would be a great candidate just don't don't ask him about that incident like 1996 don't ask the whole year yeah anyhow he won't remember anyway I do think the t-mobile thing is a good sign it's babies we should wrap this up but I think the mobile thing is a good sign to recap it could be better but I think it's a step in the right direction I don't I don't have a problem with Republicans although I do I do I do have a problem some of their policies this policies of the Republican Party and and I love all Americans and I hate everybody who's not in America okay all right you can either talk about the cows keys mooing Netflix is next new series or you can talk about some crazy dystopian drone stuff let's do it with cows keys okay this is all right so the story as it is actually bout six months ago with cows keys in the Babylon 5 crater J Michael specific we set the stage in case you don't know who the Wachowski czar they directed them he made the matrix and then Speed Racer thing exactly just made the matrix the matrix one creators are doing their second movie ever this is it their final they're fine the only Matrix movie yes with a project with never with a 10-episode series called since eight we have no idea what it's about Oh the future yes in like four years a clock is back yeah so if we heard a digital I can turn it around see the insides of the clock don't blink feed so six months ago they were shopping surround for like TV networks that's how the story goes yeah the settles not on TV to settle on Netflix so it's coming out next year some point all 10 episodes of course at once and this is I think it's be ninth or tenth Netflix original series by the time it comes out so they've got they did house of cards well don't forget they started with Lillehammer Lillehammer which is not good I want I mean was okay was I didn't want to keep watching it house of cards cards Arrested Development before that Eli Roth's Hemlock Grove that comes out next mode you have lock Grove which is which is based on a book mm-hmm which is written and it takes place and I was this a trailer for it mm-hmm this is Hemlock Grove this is so this is um so this is actually based on a book written by I think a guy from Pittsburgh or who went to school in Pittsburgh and it takes place outside of Pittsburgh so this is what Pittsburgh's like I've never his like okay here this is it by only hesitation is from director Eli Roth right yeah right am i right yeah it also seems like just like an ultra violent like a werewolf toilet it's not it's not to Twilight man trust me all right I mean no I'll take your word for it I'll see it it's not enough you want to read the book now I started really I bought the book to read and then Laura took it and read it instead of me but you like this is like this is the thing that like Reed Hastings has been talking about the Netflix CD nudity here in this trailer it's just a but yeah a but is new to me I think even even the word bot is new today you were like NYPD Blue start doing butts doing bye advise you to see David Cruz's but notes but both their bucks also also who is partner like the bigger guy his bot was also super what Sipowicz was the character's name his bot was it all its but okay they're like this Thursday Sipowicz his ass all over your TV we're really watched story let's try Hemlock Grove rest of developments in May yeah there's a bunch like anime series science fiction comedies are coming out huge deal it's like there's there's seven shows happening in 2003 Kowski said we're not gonna take this to network we're not gonna take it HBO or Showtime we haven't talked about that directly which is like six months ago they're doing anyway they're doing it with no long yeah so we don't know anything about it other than entire story that's pretty much the entire this is a horrible topic we don't get say anything about it no maybe it does it does show like you know Netflix still attracting huge talent well I'm making the matrix and then the other two majors is and then Speed Racer and then something else no no they just made the matrix oh oh didn't they do they did they were co-directors of Cloud Atlas Cloud Atlas a great hit another a successful product no but I'm just saying like they they kind of like you know no they didn't there's one of you watch all of house of cards not yet okay is it good I just finished it amazing I will say that it was very strange to watch that much that much of a show that tried so hard at the beginning to not be a TV show yeah and then so thoroughly turned into a TV TV show right but like they want the first three episodes are like this is not a TV show I think that's why I'm gonna watch for the environment rubble watching it I hear the first couple of episodes are very slow and then it kind of picks up a little bit yeah I mean it's like nine episodes of exposition okay please no not for me not spoiling yeah but I marathon that thing in three days yeah fraid someone's gonna spoil it yeah and then I don't know who's seen it who's not okay he was spoiling for me I had to stop following or was Retta really yeah for parts are out boilers all over the place I'm Loretta please yeah I started to follow you because I thought we'd have something special going on on Twitter and now you're ruining house of cards room we have this was this is like so this is a thing you know I I think Netflix has a problem let's like everyone's the only thing you can say about house of cards is like have you seen house of cards yet yeah because I don't know like yeah I know Netflix is like this is everybody has to watch everybody alive has to watch house of cards no spoilers right I mean that's you know Twitter just means like a spoiler alert button yeah right they're like the blackout text mm-hmm yeah but it needs to be like I'm gonna do a spoiler so you know your text won't be vids you don't say I got to click on this to see it right I also found myself wondering our house of cards as intro credits because it's like I'm watching all of these to watch maybe you're gonna revisit an episode maybe they'll syndicated maybe you know the amazing totally totally possible that somebody would want to pick it up to for syndication I mean that's not the craziest idea is it mm-hmm it's kind of the craziest I mean that completely goes against Netflix is I mean in five years somebody might they've you know say to here you can't staple the credits on then why don't we gotta watch them now I think the whole point is you binge watch the show that's right I don't know you're right I don't have a good answer for the first time ever either the music is really good drones talking about yeah okay so did you did you hear bloom Brooks quote from over the weekend yes okay get used to it Mayor Bloomberg it's very like I guess I like Bloomberg basically but I'm not sold on his get used there's some of these quotes we reran the piece what's the difference and I it's funny because you can tell Bloomberg doesn't quite know what he's talking about what's the difference whether the drone is up in the air or on the building why would she presumably means are not a drone fighter man everyone's one can chase you down one can follow you to your house we're going into a different world uncharted you can't keep the tide from coming in the tide by the way being pervasive surveillance by the stage that's like an army of drones like going through traffic it's not a question of whether it's good or bad I just don't see how you can stop them no really leaders to say it may be terrible but it's really nothing I could do about it so just let it happen to you that's a great like action movie taglines it's not a question of whether it's good or bad he actually followed up the what's difference wanted runner something around the building with I mean intellectually I have trouble making that distinction saying look there's CCTVs which by the way are not they're not owned by the state the city they're not monitored in a vast network of elected network of ok better on so I think what he's saying is like look CCTV cameras are watching you these things will be watching you private eyes are watching you I'm not doing it the line either hmm that's the next one thank you it's it's what is it they're watching your I don't think it's watching your every move I think it's like making your every move or take taking your every move it's not well there why well the next prize yes that's for sure but I think he's basically like stupidly they see well ok so whatever productions have oh he knows ha but he's saying he's saying he's saying look cameras on you get used to it ok fine I get used to it but but you know I'm gonna get less used to the camera that flies through the air and can follow me mhm everywhere then I am to the one that stationary on a building yeah like or in a business I get that like I can I can I'm not I'm not loving it but I also think that they're very helpful I mean there's no question that CCTV in maybe harm they harm slightly in terms of our privacy but they do tend to be very effective when a bank gets robbed and they're trying to identify in New York and this might have explained Chris Josh cops team would definitely argue that it robbed banks so in New York the police department runs a system called the domain awareness system which is three thousand cameras on the street in Manhattan yeah so they already have they already networked yeah they're all there watching zarina where that's like one of the lost bumpers with the yeah all the cameras and this joystick and they have that they have that thing and there's one guy just like do I say enhance now but he has an enhanced button and they can precise weights I mean there's all kinds of we've been running stories after stories on this about like there's the the Argos global awareness system that can like track you up to six inches on the ground from the sky yeah so like we just hit this and we just hit this lidar system the city scan yeah which is taking laser mappings of a city yeah and then knowing if you're anything's out of two centimeters out of place yeah which is definitely the end the end times yeah I mean it's it's crazy so I think the idea that the mayor of New York is like screw it it's over there's nothing you can do about it is a little bit terrifying I mean you want I think into Josh's point about the thing that you should read it Josh cops team wrote a piece today that is a published piece today that is Mayor Bloomberg's What is the title Mayor Bloomberg's vision of a drone field city doesn't fly or why it doesn't fly and it's really good it kind of makes this argument you know he wrote this piece a while ago that some it's not okay for Congress to not know how the internet works and this is like to me very much in the same it's like we need smarter politicians like I'm sorry but you're supposed to be the smartest guys in the room you supposed to be the most informed guys in the room like it shouldn't be up to other people to have to explain this stuff to you you're supposed to go like I need to know this issue because it affects the people in my city or in my state or in my country and I'm gonna learn about it I'm gonna figure it out and I'm gonna be able to speak about it intelligently if you can't do that if you're like that CCTV and drone basically the same thing yeah that's your attitude it's time for a new mayor and the mayor should be young maybe have a beard I'm thinking glasses tall maybe a why on the end of his name last name I'm running for mayor vote for me whatever your whatever in the next phase of the versions you as mayor whatever your criticism ACG elected new york that's the year I'm running next I will say house of cards has made me want to run for Congress in a really weird way he'd be great in Congress yeah cuz I would definitely kill that dude for now hey hey did you just boil something he didn't spoil anything now also I don't think you should make threats about people in Congress my campaign for mayor begins now okay here here my here's what I'll do for you the city of New York one I will tell you I will learn about how drones work I will tell you I will be able to tell you I will be able to tell you by the way am I in this camera the one that I that I was in originally I just want to make sure I will tell you if a dry if there's a if it's a drone or a CCTV camera I'd be able to distinguish between those two things okay that's my first promise to you my second promise is that the city that the skies of the city will be blacked out with swarms of drones we want you do at all times and no sunlight shall break through my drone swarm this world Bush will be on you like white on rice mister boss you have a question yes mr. mayor mr. berry have a question yeah these guys like reporters like a press thing those really quick could we get from so real quick Kenna Kenna large drone give me a really big large soda well I of course will allow all sizes of sodas and I will actually have a law that there has to be more sugar in them so people are you know more awake and ready for action because of the drone swarms you gotta be on your toes in those things oh that my drones will be armed and they will also have claws yeah they'll be armed with with with guns as well as sharp claws and the drugs will be making sure that you're drinking sugar will actually deliver the sugary drinks New York will be hand delivered drone delivered claw delivered actually the claws will have a look like little syringes and the drones we painted to look like weird hawks they'll be like we have like lots of extra metal yeah yeah yeah be preventing and yeah that's the thing that I can promise to you as that I will do as mayor we're Hawk drones that that can kill and serve you a drink that blackouts is the blot out the Sun and that I can also tell you which one is a drone and which one is not hold on one second so I just I just know something I didn't see before someone in the booth apparently did it Josh Topolsky for mayor oh okay yeah you 2014 is gonna be our year yeah also free Wi-Fi everywhere in New York oh good provided by drones that's right throw net okay I like that maybe it could be on the cabinet I'll be your speech right okay good great Ellis will be because the drones will murder that's right drugs are impervious to copyright and patent law I do know about drones so wait these Alice Hamburg are gonna come in Allison hey we're gonna play a clip this is a big setup yeah they'll set up yeah so Ellis did this great report this week on iCloud how it just you know it doesn't just work so we were bring him in here that's what you're saying iCloud should just work it should just work with quote yes it doesn't mm-hmm and in LFO a piece he talked too much developers that like basically it doesn't like here's what's wrong with it so we have a clip with a clip from Steve Jobs introducing iCloud yeah and then when we come back I won't be here I'll be gone you'll never see me well you'll just be wearing a Nellis hamburger suit yes I'll be wearing a hamburger scuse me can we call it iCloud now iCloud stores your content in the cloud and wirelessly pushes it to all your devices so it automatically uploads it stores it and automatically pushes it to all your other devices but also it's completely integrated with your apps and so everything happens automatically and there's nothing new to learn it just all works it just works now you might ask why should I believe them they're the ones that brought me mobile me it wasn't our finest hour let me just say that both yeah so so funny at the time Oh Alice by the way here's Ella's hamburger I just teleported right in and just teleported in in place of Ross Miller so so obviously you know Steve Jobs was very bullish about right iCloud why would you believe us we're the ones are made mobile we're the ones who maybe we figured it out this time and it's not it's not that it's there's a different set of problems it's not the same kind of like consumer facing problems that I mean it ultimately rolls down to ends up being a consumer facing issue but explaining that explain the issue with iCloud right now so the problem is is Steve Jobs says it just works for everybody and so people expect all their apps to tie in perfectly with iCloud and two years later customers are angry because their favorite apps haven't rolled out I cloud integration everybody's leaving bad reviews in the App Store and these developers are upset mmm I've been hearing so much over the last year saying hey if we want to do anything more complex than just sinking a list of files or - duze apple's way to do it is horribly borked and just completely do they actually use the phrase horrible abort that was me okay but apparently totally blew it yeah and so developers are angry yeah about the implementation yeah and the problems that Apple doesn't provide any support apparently I've heard that they only have four guys working on core data which is how Apple wants you to store your data in iCloud for complicated apps so I switch be clear here iCloud is a marketing term for consumers we're encompasses like 50 things yeah right everything from like you can redownload your songs and iTunes to when you put an app on your phone it shows up on the iPad and that stuff is like very simple right yeah and a lot of people assume hey plug into iCloud rights as easy is adding some of these other iCloud features right yeah it's there I make a change in my document on my phone and it automatically shows up over here in my iPad or my Mac that's thought it doesn't work across any apps except really apples right mm-hmm right which which we can assume our augmented in some way not just this is not just or built for whatever their exchanges and that's what I've heard is that a lot of the Apple apps like let's say keynote are using the document based syncing just like a list of files with changes right and that apparently works really well especially as of the last couple months but they don't use core data which is for databases and that's what a lot of developers were most looking forward to about iCloud now and they don't even use it except for their trailers app which doesn't work too well I think it's interesting to the juxtaposition between Google's strategy here and and even Microsoft in some way where where they really are providing like this gateway this this you know it's not all in the background essentially you know the yes the data singing is in the background and ultimately you're syncing you're syncing content back and forth between devices but but in many cases you're looking at web views where the data is in one place to begin with you know right but like you know uh well Google is an obvious example but on Drive or Google Docs right you know that data when you open it up on your app on your Android phone that data is as far as I know is a some web view of the data that you're dealing with it I don't know all the details of it but but there's not it doesn't feel like there's this push-pull situation which happens with iCloud which makes it I think more complex seems to make it more complex for developers to plug into they're not saying like you know cook up a webview and that will be displayed in both places they're saying exchange data back and forth between three different places right now take it from one platform to up to the cloud sound so what's interesting is I've been reading some of the follow ups from Alice's piece and it's developers saying well hey this doesn't work and B what are the benefits of doing all this engineering work to lock myself into Apple sync ecosystem yeah because what if I do want to build that webview I can't do it with Apple system what if I ask it's really popular and I want to go get the Android audience definitely can't do that with apples ecosystem right so there's this like it also means you can't use it from a buddy's computer internet well it just seems it seems like what what Apple really wants to do is or what they should be doing is standardizing around some I'm sorry not standardized but using some standards that pre-existing standards here and opening that saying like hey look there's all this stuff about like in a way like what they did with Safari and WebKit where they're like hey and so there's web I thought where they do do that work right so like the calendar syncing is Kal that's right works well right that contact syncing is going carddav right people also know how that stuff works those are open standards and these are things that they couldn't be couldn't be less transparent about I mean it took them a year to even offer sample code do you think there's any is there any did you get any sense here that this is a competitive issue alongside being just a kind of technical issue or a manpower issue like is there an is there something here where apples kind of like hey we don't want the open or not open office what is the UM what is the UH popular office app quick office quick office we don't want these guys to have you know the same kind of access that are are that pages has or you know numbers has do you sense that there's anything there or is it really just a question of like they're not throwing enough manpower and they don't have their like technical side of stuff you know they're ducks in a row there I think that's exactly it I mean they don't have their ducks in a row they announce this as a feature Steve Jobs said it's going to be easy to tie your absent it's so weird years later it just sucks it's kind of like facetimes there's a little bit reminiscent of face time when they made a big deal I mean I thought they made a pretty big deal of a7 now they're like yeah we're gonna open this up it's gonna be a standard if you want to make I mean somebody I think specifically asked somebody at Apple if I want to make an Android app I think they maybe maybe jobs even set it on stage if I'm in QA or something yeah a tune it was like no it was like yeah if you want yeah you know in the EEPROM sure said something about how horrible Android is in you know why would anybody do that but but the point is that it's like one of these things where Apple saying like hey we're creating the standard and we're gonna open it up to people and it can be easy to use because we're app only now to do this stuff and they're not you know I don't want to like beat them up any more than necessary but I think for developers this is becoming you know the clout you know it's funny and I go but we've talked about this before where job said you know it's not just a hard drive in the sky it's not just a yeah you know your files don't just go up and then come back down but like weirdly iCloud seems most like that out of all of the services that exist you know it just seems like the least easy to plug into it as a real cloud as a real cloud service suite I mean I've to this day people write what is iCloud I'm like I don't know this was a vague it's like iTunes Match is part of iCloud right it's like my app what is our it's a marketing term yeah I mean that's to market what to market that's the question like cuz I automatic solution for music movies you know documents in the cloud yeah iTunes in the cloud like I find like the photos thing totally daunting you know it's so I will say photo stream works well photo stream works okay but he requires that you does this thing where like you think that there would be a process somewhere that pops open every once in a while in the background and downloads your your photo stream photos to iPhoto but it doesn't you can't see your photo stream photos until you open iPhoto and watch them download yeah and it's like I'm so used now to I take pictures on my phone they get automatically uploaded to Google Plus which is Picasa into a private folder and they're just there one on when I'm done you know the process doesn't seem like there's a more of there's much less of a seamless process and managing you're like what are these today you know what did I hit a limit I don't it's just weird to me like it doesn't feel as cohesive as they sold in I and I think that like they're butting up against their kind of apples has had a lot of problems with the internet yes like the internet they like their apps and that's what one developer named Greg from agile tortoise told me and I said us agile tourists they make that app drafts that's really great and so what he said was with Apple there is no truth in the cloud like you find with Google there's not like one server that holds all this stuff the job yeah he said that right and that hasn't been that way it's like if you want to send that stuff to Google that's fine but photostream for example it's like they need to hold it for you and then push it down to this app effectively which is a whole other challenge yeah that they just have I think this is part of the untangle enough like I'm very interested see what happens at WWDC because I think this will be part of it I also think that just the untangling of interaction in the OS in iOS is one of the things that is like their biggest challenge right now you know it's like how do you untangle the interaction for an app developer when they want them to be able to you know effectively move a file here there or move data here there or share something to another app or open with another app or do this kind of like the stuff that has become so weirdly fluid and easy on Android when it's like hey you can do this with three different things which one do you want to do it with like do you always want to use that app word you want to use something else and it just like you just get into a oh of use some of these developers are telling me they're like that's one of the things about iOS is that all the apps are sandboxed yeah there's not one file system you can really look at unless you're gonna plug it into your computer or jailbreak and that's something you get on Android that is in a lot of ways really nice I mean I think that I think that they you know Apple had a lot of runway because they revered so very deeply revolutionized mobile computing and now they've like you know they kind of started way high up and have and haven't stayed there in that but now stuff has risen and gone beyond it in terms of like ease of use and and data portability and I think that and and don't cross system functionality right I just made that term up by the way I'm pretty excited about it and I think that and I think that now it's like time for them to meet those challenges like a light in an 80s movie when you like turn on a robot and like cross system functionalities I'd like to see the meet at WWC or whenever they announce the next version of iOS I mean they really there does seem to be this like big ball of confusion from developers from users you know I'd like to take some accountability yeah I mean there's been these developers that I mean the way that they put it is we have to throw our bugs into the radar black hole is what they say and you know these guys aren't brats it's like yeah this is a free service but they were all so geeked about it when Apple talked right the syncing databases is really tough but you ever try and sync your iPhoto with Dropbox your computer is purring right until you shut I thought you want you want I mean it's good ostensibly would be a good thing for developers for them to be able to easily plug into this I've known doubt that that's the case and I'm sure that this frustration I mean and what you wrote I think you see that frustration is about hey you built something kind of half-assed it's not really working and our customers expect it yeah and you promised it and like what's going on I mean that's totally reasonable to me that seems like not unreasonable at all yeah these guys really their only opportunity is at WWDC and Apple won't talk about it I mean Apple won't address it i mean Apple doesn't address stuff until it's absolutely the worst possible situation right until your beacon type in a URL and steal someone's password right no I mean it is but it is like you know it's stuff like antenna gate you know it was like had to get really to a fever pitch before Apple address and and boy did they address it well ish they were like we have a free bumper we got a body on these and now a little bit less money we're still gonna make more money than ever be a corner like the maps they I mean like the maps you know I mean Maps the maps one was a little rare where they but it did take an enormous amount of noise for Tim Cook to say hey we messed up we could do better on maps I don't know if that's happened yet I used maps the other day and it was not good it's not it's not good it was not good but anyhow but they the Internet data in the Internet is like something that Apple needs definitely compute well now so here's my theory I'll get there in a relationship I'm just gonna keep saying this until it's not sure anybody but I think Apple they made a little computer but it's like the little computer they wanted to make and they never wanted to have apps on it and they you know Steve Jobs original idea was some web apps and like don't worry about it shut up and it it's like the App Store actually surprised them did you really no way you really think their plan was not to have apps yeah I've talked I mean that's a line in the book right in a Walter Isaacson book where he's like the the board member from Genentech who I want to call Arthur Clark oh that's not his name whoever the board member from Genentech was like begging Steve Jobs to put apps on the iPhone I feel like there was always kind of a maybe it was a skunkworks thing or maybe it was just brewing kind of down in the background but III can't imagine that the plan was to not do native apps for the maybe not as fast as they did but I think that's the thing not third-party yeah why maybe now in there cuz you know they're still catching up to the reality of what they made which is it's not just a little computer right like it's not a map where no you know I think it's actually really interesting that they've never made a Mac with an integrated data card in it like they've never they've never been like we're gonna put the internet right in the damn thing right whenever gonna you can't buy a Mac with like a 4G modem in it or an LT mode a minute in the evening the MacBook break a MacBook yeah I was really amazed about why you would want to have LTE and you're like home computer why not think of why no because it's in your house yeah but like if you fine whatever like it yes that Wow no no I see what you're saying though never they've never liked integrated I always took that as more of a I'm not wanting to deal with carriers in any material what they do with their other product I think things like they they were like we built a computer and that it's here's our iPhone as a little computer yeah and Google's like we're building a platform that is like designed put I mean I think there was a sign to give you view think there was this idea that like hey it's great for getting on the internet it's great for getting on the internet in your web browser it's a really really amazing mobile web browser still to this day the best yank didn't that enough yeah you can get on pages I'm interested to see you cuz Apple and Google have such different approaches if you look at something like a Chromebook it's like the opposite yeah yeah iPhone yeah you need you need the internet for everything you're looking to the internet for everything whereas Apple is thus far been very comfortable with these local apps yeah look outward I think it's kind of outdated I think local local app functionality is absolutely needed and necessary for a lot of this stuff I mean but there has to be some material fluid back like data back-end into the internet and off to what you like if something doesn't sync for me if it's data related if it's not like a clear syncing situation I mean I'm bouncing back and forth through my phone and a tablet and my laptop all day long depending on where I am and what I'm doing and like to see the seamless syncing between something like Gmail on gmail particularly when you see the seamless syncing where it's maybe a few seconds here there yeah but it's like you know what you do on the phone is absolutely related to and part of what is happening when you're on your in your browser that to me is the sense of confidence that it builds is huge you know same thing for same same thing for Google Docs and even Microsoft has gotten the message with this stuff you know with a lot of what they're doing I mean they're running around like pimping their web services for iOS yeah I mean they're telling developers our data solution in the cloud is better than I just saw and I just saw an ad that's like all about that kind of like cross-platform singing and it is they do kind of get it better right you know and it's like Apple needs to take a hard look at itself here I mean there's also some security to I mean you you know that Gmail is gonna have your stuff you know even if your app there's still this management of contacts the way they do it seems so hopelessly outdated to me now like I never think about my contacts anymore Google has gotten so good at just kind of like figuring out who I contact like adding the things I mean I add I do hand ad people you know when necessary you know getting rid of duplicates dealing with email address multiple email addresses and phone numbers I never think about anymore the only time I ever think about is if I ever have to open address book on my computer which I sync to Google and this creates all of these like annoying sync problems and it's like it really me needs to just work more than it than it then it just works I think Apple needs to become an Internet company this is what this WWDC should be about yes there have been a very good computer company they've been a really profitable computer company I think the next stage of evolution and the computing industry is about the internet they've got on tangle the web yeah it's kind of crazy if you look at icloud.com they've got untangle the web Ellis yeah if you look at iCloud comm and you see the icons for those apps yeah you're like am I looking at the internet right now you know they try to make iCloud feel and act and look like a desktop app right and and that's like the craziest mistake of all is that is that thinking that that what's happening in your at this moment at least what's happening inside of your browser should just be 100% the same as what happens on your native apps you know I think that I think yeah look and feel is fine but it shouldn't be all about like trying to trick people into thinking that they're using a native app it should be like what's best for that environment what makes the most sense you know and I think that um that's a minor issue that's a design issue I have much less of an issue with there you know it's funny we're talking with this earlier but people say apples design you know there's an article in the journal of I think about them doing more flat design or Johnny I've it's like I'm not you know the stitch leather is annoying and stupid and in the stuff where it's like you know the skew that's killer a mutt as much as the the function so frustrating this is Google's happen iOS but it's there there's nothing more frustrating to me than when I get the Gmail notification on my phone and then I open Gmail and it just sits there loading yeah and I'm like I know I can read half of this email a notification center and I'm waiting for this app to like to load it I mean why didn't what it's not that the notifications look bad that they're they interfere with the top of your yeah display this is our number one pet well that's what it's one that I find incredibly this is I think it's crazy bizarre know about there a notification it's that and it's also that's right and also you know things like they're sharing panel that they had created yes it is ugly but what's more frustrating is that it doesn't share the way I want to write you know it's like adding a photo to an email is still a ridiculously silly process right you know it's like it's like it's not so much that your stuff looks bad I think it looks fine honestly keep it the way it looks make it work better like make the function this is the to the iCloud thing it's like the apps look fine the service is at its fundamental at a fundamental level it's basically good ideas mm-hmm and it looks fine it just doesn't work the way you want it to work that its way should work developers and customers I think that's what's the fix else what I got to do and we got a wrap up because we're doing I'm hearing from the developers is that one they want some communication from Apple hey are you guys actually fixing this or is this something that you're kind of leaving over here if people want to use it you're gonna let it be or and they're saying oh if you're not doing anything get rid of it you know get rid of it like you got rid of RSS or iWeb just yeah you know leave it out of the picture because if it's in the picture our users will demand it right right and or they could step it up and double their team I mean they have billions of dollars to hire another guy yeah higher to what he's he's really really good you know these developers they love Apple and they want this all to work so badly and you know I mean when you look at the support forums it's a lot of people complaining and it's a lot of developers helping fellow developers yeah and like they want to make it work devs helping devs devs look at that look now you use so much passion and and emotion talking about these developers what he's been hearing their pain I know you know you can tell he really loves these guys he really feels for their for their plight I do and I do through you I also feel for them I feel from nothing please help please help these guys Apple just help them out they're drowning yeah you and your shoveling water onto them and you know what's not too bad but they they don't treat the developers like they treat us but it's something similar it's something like we can't really talk about that or due to you know stay tuned or something like that right and they get a share information with developers see you'd think they might in a little way and terms of the underlying framing worse about for many years I would not think that they would share information with anybody or just be like I mean there's they're very they keep it you know they like to keep it under lock and keep so they're ready to talk about it yeah yeah which is understandable but but for developers you would want a little more transparency a problem right mm-hmm do we've any other topics we're done that's it intent really short traffic we should have at least one other thing to talk about then something else happen this week Alice Wells I'm really slow leaking news actually I wasn't paying attention I missed my cloud patiently waiting the sinks ready to see what a thats what a last week the the this drawing challenge was the sad Android at a crossroads yeah this week I wants a Dallas in the iCloud patiently waiting to sink sad I was in the iCloud patiently waiting to sink patiently waiting to sink I can make a face yeah good it's pretty great really great that's our verge guys for this week if you'd like to get in touch with us you can email us at Virg Cass at the verge calm you can leave a comment on the post when it goes up we can find us on Twitter the verge is at Virg I'm Joshua Topolsky nila is reckless sorry at Josh will ski he's at reckless Ellis's at hamburger which is really the Twitter name I don't know how he got the only reason that was Ross who was on his own Orosco noe on the end oh no Roscoe noe and and yeah that's the verge guys wow that did not even pull that off remotely you got a stick the layoffs will be starting at 6:00 today yeah top shelf will be was supposed to follow us up at 5:30 sorry is that right yeah at 5:30 but it's actually gonna be at 6:00 but it will be live-streamed yes and that will be available on the front page of the verge and and you should stick around for cos top shelf is awesome also a lot of people have been asking I'm just gonna give you I love you look and ask you about on the verge and whether it's dead or if it's coming back it is coming back I think that we're going to I don't think I know that we're going to do I think you can see more on the verge soon somebody told me there's a new segment with Ryan Seacrest unlike the Today Show you've just been doing it caught on the verge I'm very upset about that we hear from my lawyer Seacrest but it is not gone it is coming back in all sorts of new and exciting forms I really like that we're at the point in our careers where we feel comfortable just openly threatening Ryan Seacrest yeah Seacrest has done for ya hope you enjoyed your your reign of terror because it's about to end oh yeah that's that's the show we're back next week and some terror the Ryan Seacrest story and as always I wish you and your family the very very best this week and may all your files sync the way that you have a good closure all right all right goodbye ever you're good