Gadgetory

hello that was surprising was hello hello welcome to the verge cast I'm nilay patel i'm ross miller and this see your thing is david pierce david oh no bro still sort of shocked that I'm here this is amazing super-weak polities our room for the technical difficulties we literally had to just put the laptop out make David a floating head yeah look apparently the city of Los Angeles does not know how to how to build an Ethernet connection no google fiber so David I don't out it this is the way we had to make it work David's in a laptop sitting on a desk sitting on earth in a building I'm and I'm on I'm on this my thigh he's using box it's a beautiful is it have a color screen does it know I'm fascinated by my thighs like touch screens really yeah it's it's like I get to eat actually I'm happy to have no ink is fine my thighs are the color touch screens it's like you've technologies run amok you've literally you've gone too far novotel no I have to say it's been awesome I've had to tether constantly all week and the best one was this little I think it was a novotel it's a little mifi that I could just like scroll through and like kick everybody else off on it and just like should we not totally else off and be like the bandwidth his mind everybody get out does it have did you scream the band with his mind each night every bill opportunity and then actually just set the room on fire and that's good that's great uh look so David's here David's well he's not here he's here in you look for the people listening on audio alone hey David you can pretend the david is here you don't know what I'm doing people watching in the video I'm very sorry about Ross his behavior I have ultimate power here look whatever we have is much of David as we need generally we have too much David and it has been so first of all this is the verge cast this is where discussed the week in technology news culture news technology news culture culture the culture of of news if you take those words you match them up any way you want and that's the show we make and it has been bonkers we took use just utterly crazy it started on Monday with Sony know it started with Microsoft Apple Sony in that order right and then kind of in the middle in 10 it was like I will do a thing no no yeah so it was right after that did I think tuesday which is position but he didn't do the press conference so David you were kind of sore the Nintendo thing was her things so there wasn't I mean they did like a they did a live stream that they didn't want to like tell anybody about and they just kind of like went into a room and they were like guys we have some games everybody's cheering the background I guess for like Nintendo yeah we're tender so hard it best by then he went to best well let's start let's do the chronology so David's at e3 we'll talk about Apple afterwards let's get get 3v3 real quick um so i would say that sony has emerged from e3 as like the darling of the show for doing virtually nothing different than right they like their that they they've succeeded by maintaining the status quo which is there like and used games will work the same as used games at work always done since 1986 yeah and the console doesn't come with a motion controller so it's 399 which is how much consoles have cost me and it plays games games are awesome there's no special interaction don't worry about the camera I just yeah it'd be control yeah there's like there's no motion controls or not like so in because of that because they're just like we made a game console everyone's very happy with them is that your take on what Sony's doing I mean I think it's a little uh thatthat's a little sort of simplistic and I think what Sony did here with it was really smart was play like really really hard to the game or crowd because that's all those are the people who were here like there were 5,000 people or whatever at this Sony event on monday and like just to just like set the stage here they both had these in like big sports arenas in los angeles not in like theaters not in little rooms like this would be were a root sports arenas it was like this is where people have concerts and instead they're like let's talk about video games like that's the that's the culture here people here are obsessed with video games I was like I got to the microsoft thing like just shy of two hours early and there were four hundred people in line ahead of me it was unbelievable I've never seen anything like this Wow um but so what Sony did here was basically say like just sort of over and over like we love gamers and Microsoft hates gamers Microsoft just wants to like give you ways to watch TV and we want to let you play games and like it was a brilliant move for this I don't know what it'll do in the sort of grand scheme of how much they sell compared to Microsoft but for here they really did sort of come out as the darling because they said over and over like we love gamers and we talked about they get this and I want to talk about Microsoft it because that video sony released a video and it's particularly used game thing right that I think really cemented them is like the favorite of e3 which was yeah during the press conference they had a video and they're like how used games works on the ps4 it was like a two second clip of somebody handing somebody else a game which is cool right and that's what you would expect right sure about what they didn't say was what about the games you download from PlayStation Network what about the free games that you know that they're giving away records PlayStation plug there's a lot of stuff that they're not making clear because the interesting thing so I i met with marc whitten who's the chief product officer for xbox and as headed up a lot of the development of this stuff and i asked him about that i was like listen like I basically said everybody sort of thinks you guys suck right now because you don't let people sell their used games and he he kind of brushed me off he was like uh he sort of said were in transition he was like we are clearly moving towards this digital place where everybody's gonna download games and that has its own thing and he made it sound like the drm stuff that's gonna be there it's gonna be very different from what we have now where you can just like hand somebody a disc and I think I get the sense for Microsoft that they don't care they're like look in two years everybody's gonna be downloading all these games anyway and like we'll wait until then and we think then we're gonna win on other stuff yeah which is really interesting so it's like it there they're making this big bet that like three years down the road they're gonna beat Sony so badly that they can afford to like look like the bad guy yeah well I mean in their history I mean and I I think this actually gonna be seen for they'll show that mean Microsoft's history is like you know they they were the dark horse with the xbox the original xbox right they came out of every 60 they were headed a curve on a lot of things people said they were dumb right nobody wants play multiplayer and then they completely dominated the last generation so you can see why they're like well do that again but right I don't think that that was another thing that mark wouldn't said was he was he he said when they come out with the first Xbox they had an Ethernet port and not what was it like the narrowband connection for people who had modems and people freaked out and he was like this is the same reaction we get every time we launched with new stuff and he was like we made a calculated bet that we were going to get beyond that and we were right and then they did stuff architectural e that he was like we didn't see the kinect coming but we had that we like had the technology that was ready for something like it he was like we were constantly making bets that if this thing lasts eight years we need to be ready for we are eight years from now now I kept being like what what about today and he was kind of like I don't care but the thing is all those things they were adding like they were additive it's like we're not gonna take away from what you're used to we're just gonna augment and what you liked or not it's gonna be there uh this is more of a restrictive move though like the 24-hour thing is just like well hold on well let's talk okay let's just lay out the differences between the two all right cuz we don't know I mean EA could publish games the ps4 and add all kinds of deer into this game right place Sunday's basic just doing a lazy a fair approach do what everyone right but Microsoft is saying like you need to connect once every 24 hours things won't work unless you do right and gay it's up to game publishers decide how they want to enable sales right yes and use retail partners and you can't transfer to your friends so they're actually implementing system level drm whereas Sony isn't that design Sony's publishers won't do it right i mean that's that's like in the publishers are the ones who matter ultimately right i mean right that's where all the games so what what what what's Microsoft's doing it's different day we can you explain it to us cuz they finally explained to be three so I mean did they though like this sort of did uh but it's yeah i mean i think it's it's really what you said like microsoft is is doing they're forcing you to have a connection there forcing you to use this whole kit first of all you can't use the xbox without the kinect like not only are they sold together they can't be used separately but really if you under connect the xbox doesn't work that's that's what I'm told Wow which seems wild to me and I'd like deeply hope that's not true but like people who know these things told me that um and but yes it's Microsoft the one thing I haven't heard a good explanation floor and like I think Marc Whitten was sort of stupid to that they're sort of stupid to forget people now for two years from now but the one thing that they have not explained in a way that makes any sense to me is the 24-hour check weird like if you have this system DRS system level drm for games then why do you need to constantly be checking to see if I'm online and constantly pinging back to the surface like I don't it just doesn't make sense to me that it works that way yeah but you know let me just be blunt I don't care look I don't care I mean like in my world everything else i own is online all the time it's a pretty small market of people who really care about that stuff right i mean it's it's like people in the military and like i've heard like college students bitch about it ya know but i but i will say the thing that really kills me the thing that like the my favorite quote of this holy through is somebody asked Don Mattrick like what do you want to do if you play if you want to play online and he just without missing a beat when oh you can just buy an xbox 360 yes oh the biggest dick moment I ever heard my life it's like yeah by the eight-year-old consoling right but it's like that's their strategy he's like and to some extent I kind of get that that's their strategy this is like they're hoping that can last them you know another two years until we are in this digital space where bandwidth isn't a problem and where people don't care about downloading games and where people don't care about you know not sharing games and they're doing some stuff with like family sharing with the xbox live stuff that makes a little more sense but they're hoping that kind of that the xbox 360 can like last them long enough and it makes me wonder that if Sony wasn't coming out with the ps4 now if Microsoft would have tried to wait like another year or two to do the xbox one really God the name is so bad every time I hear an xbox one I think of the first Xbox it's not going away it's been it's been like a month now right yeah I know it's that's that's for something today so let's go over at Shoney's announcements would they would they have to show us III beyond it works exactly the same as a ps3 when you hand somebody a game oh right so Sony's whole thing was like it yet it was like big Microsoft burn for forever and and we interviewed Paul interviewed Scott roadie from Sony and for top shelf which is coming up later today nice promotion nice well done yeah give yourself a dollar nor show and scott was literally talking about they were rehearsing at the event before they were rehearsing their event while Microsoft is doing theirs and like watching Twitter and Sartre and soph 499 and he said everybody started cheering in the Sun on like high-fiving and like it was ridiculous um but so Sony comes out and says like all this stuff basically about how they're better than Microsoft and then kind of dives in the game so we still haven't seen a lot of entertainment stuff from Jillian we finally got see the hardware which was good I actually got to like almost a given as you look at hardware well what and well it looks like it looks like if you took a ps2 and a VCR and you're like you know like that's what I like I i I'm gonna make these go together I mean but I the bigger question you what set-top actually does look good I mean at least it was some credit for like not having that what was that noise David it's like David just belched don't you just received a notification I just made me laugh uh he laughs like a okay look it's secret no that was skype telling me that I'm online no good good just just in case you didn't thank you for joining us now look yes they're all gonna look like black boxes but I just think to this this generation is really boring I think they look really boring i think the original 360 looked really cool i think a ps3 looks really cool it looks crazy as hell but lately which ps3 the first very first year the first the 1i have that one's the uh the that the 360 was like a novel design I think the 360 slim or the stealth box which nobody picked up on those I tried really hard I think that is really cool um I thought that the original ps3 slim and not the new one with a with the new one looks over the new one looks like literally like a plastic it's like they went to Kobe you know you've been not gonna saw four years do you have any idea about it it is uh because we're what you think we just use like our old discman parts to make appt yesterday that looks like job but I thought those the first few iterations of the xbox and ps3 looked beautiful and then these new ones look terrible both of them look bad straight up and the xbox one looks like garbage and now he s the war looks looks boring David you've seen these in person so I I the xbox one I like less and less as time goes on it just has that like ugly glossy thing next to the big fan it just doesn't look good the ps4 is is too i think like a two big version of something that's actually kind of nice looking like it has the angled front which is sort of cool and it's like a little like catamaran e stack with the space in the middle and that's kind of nifty but but I can yeah there's a better word for it but I'm going to catamaran I mean do you know it's like the waspiest thing that's ever been said on the road chest you should be wearing a boat are you wearing dark shoes right now i am i'm actually on i'm actually on my catamaran right leadership putt few callers it wow that's good that's great day for you la boy so I have my ray-bans over there you and I weekend that part's not a lie unfortunately but uh yes I think like that the Sony made a two big version of something that actually could have been sort of nice looking so are they both limited by the fact that I had to build pcs cuz these things are pcs right it's a patient gone to the PC case mod guy Simon like do you have any old neon lights that we can use sure I mean like just some liquid cooling we could just like light out is that what it mean like is that what it is they're just not a key solution and and I think the biggest problem that they continue to have is they just need fans everywhere cuz there's so much power and it's like always running at full tilt it's always doing this crazy stuff so like when you have to be venting out of every imaginable surface like it's really hard to do and the thing is I think I my theory is that people just don't care like whenever we've complained about the design before yeah people are is just like whatever and and the one thing that they both did is build boxes that like if you don't want to notice them you don't really have to wear is like the 360 you were gonna notice like it was there and it was like a centerpiece of deuter living room whether you liked it or not and these you can just sort of like stick away next to your blu-ray player and you know be done with but you don't you don't need a blu-ray player anymore lets you you can use the stick away exior yeah that's all that's left the team everything's taken next your cable box much Wow we get cable okay why it's like your ugly friend you're like you come with me and I'll look great I look awesome does your cable box so I'm gonna start going to barge the cave wax it's gonna be great yeah check minute look at this first then then look at me hey beautiful yeah okay what were you saying rods uh so I have to ask you since like Xbox has been pushing this entertainment thing and I I was wondering when he's gonna like add anything to it they don't really have to do they like we can assume the ps3 capabilities does netflix does hulu does amazon i Jes everything except TV exactly and stuff at Matt and I obviously I think Microsoft Stevie implementation is silly so right but Microsoft is pushing whole hog with the TV stunning like they will get there they will do something Sony hasn't made any indications but by the time Microsoft gets there well TV and cable be as big of a selling point I'd like cuz they're they're going at a rate that cable is also kind of like kind of meandering off they'll hit some point and like we'll be doing internet video anyway um I don't know I guess anybody saying all the services will just come to the ps4 I think so anything at all to you about television David not really no they talked about like flixster and redbox instant and like it's clearly something there thinking about but I don't think they're concerned with it nearly in the way that Microsoft is and that's sort of weird to me because like if I'm if I'm Microsoft or if I'm Sony rather and I'm catering to these gamers who are sort of by nature you know nerdy or people more willing to hang out and hack their hardware those are the people who are going to want to like go through the work of getting all their TV and stuff set up and I think a lot of people who buy xboxes are not going to ever know that it controls their TV and a lot of people who buy ps4 S will want it to do that and it won't and it's like it's a weird thing that Sony seems just sort of willing to ignore but for their target audience it would make a ton of sense right so let's talk but um well i once i'm a games is I haven't paid any attention to gratis coverage because i was at cuz i doing the apple thing real quick the last piece of this is the motion gaming stuff right yeah and you wrote a piece saying that you really liked what Microsoft is doing with a new connect that it's really interesting and then Paul wrote a piece there was like Sony's giving up a motion gaming and somewhere in there is like the reality right which is the potential on the Xbox is really great for the new style of motion gaming but because Sony isn't doing it it might not happen and that's kind of the sense i'm getting what what's your take on it yeah I think that's I think that's really fair and I think Microsoft is going to end up being hurt by the fact that playstation or that Sony doesn't seem to care all that much about motion gaming but the big thing for me was that like Kinect is going from this sort of gimmicky thing where like it used to be in Madden games like you would stand in front of your TV and you had to like you had to like literally pretend to hike the ball to yourself and then like fake throw it and that would be it or like all of the moves were big and bombastic and you had to scream your TV and now like the Kinect is so much better and so much more aware and has so much more data that it could do these much smaller things and so you watched the one of the coolest games I saw that one hour 10 ones i wanna play the most is dead rising 3 this big sort of open world zombie game and they he was playing and sort of running around in at one point this zombie like jumped on his back and he literally just went like this and just shook it off it yeah and it was wild and it was just like this sort of instinctive reaction that he had is like it off and it the kinect like sees this watches it happen and we can all be my mother playing super mario yeah jumping with the controller and a I'm gonna go movie just for a second so hey hey just for a second just like it so I rots hey I do it so if I'd worst Danish I just like play dead rising 3 like this the entire time and like yes it does look this invincibility mode this is a comment in dead rising just I want you all to know that what I'm looking at is extremely I'm gonna find this you just keep going get really yeah just you keep shaking I damn i can actually no no this i'm not waiting for you you'll get just me again in a second just let's get nobody missed a lot you know it's really just all right just hang on are you a shake when I tell you to shake a good what's on it it's fine various types no no okay wait now shake dead rising 3 god mode this is the worst this is the worst forecast moment all I am this is like a lot work don't come any more the longest six seconds great experience oh you have experience excuse me all right David your back to nothing anybody how are hello David it's better this way like it let's talk about games yeah I mean it seems like the connect stuff and I'm just gonna it seems like the kinect stuff is great and that's cool but yeah unless everybody uses it it won't be great so like Microsoft first party games will be awesome right and all the third party developers are going to have to mike sucks going to like kick him some is microsoft indicate they're going to do this at all cuz i mean like Electronic Arts happen someone's gonna make clone do you see that yes yeah I you who's behind you thank you my teachers like a phone just came up from underneath its John lagomarsino no but so if you're like trying arts and you're making a call of duty or sorry Activision you're making call of duty why what instant if you have to make connect stuff because you're not gonna do it for PlayStation I no one's gonna buy a Playstation i right so what was i I don't know i'm not i'm not convinced that people will to be totally honest and a lot of the games that we've seen and again it's early so a lot of people just aren't talking about some of the things that they're making and it could certainly change over time but for right now a lot of what we're seeing is is not involving connecting like big meaningful ways or motion gaming in any way and a few of them have like add-ons for kinect we're like you can do a thing with a controller or you can do it with kinect and like maybe it's more fun like there's this moment and rise where you like press a button to call your archers or you can yell archers and they come so it's like whatever whichever you want to do is cool but on the one of the really interesting things we've seen here is that there aren't a lot of games that are really really dependent on it it's like an add-on and it's other that rather than like a big change for how we act so let's talk about games what are the best games you've seen you through this year uh so this is the problems we've seen a lot of games and we haven't been able to play live it's rough mom so it sit there there a ton of cool games we saw a lot of thumb during the demos quantum break seems super ambitious and may be awesome watch dogs is gonna be incredible yeah I'm the rise son of Rome this like 300 e game yeah or you just like murder people ruthlessly all the time and that's as far as I can tell the whole purpose the game actually looks really cool uh-huh gear look this isn't it this was a long set up here just tell me about Metal Gear can you tell me what the hell is going on metal gear and what key face up wait wait in anytime you ever asked that question can you tell me what the hell is okay that's applicable for the this high one Daniel E seems like it's a torture simulator yeah like those ones were not the old ones like the least had a plot about what and by the way i just read the metal your wiki cuz i tweeted that i would pay a million to six hours later uh yeah I would I tweeted that a million dollars to watch Hideo Kojima explained the story of Metal Gear looking for someone like wouldn't you just want to be in that room where he was like ok yeah I was like wait what is the story of metal gear and I went to the wiki and it's insane it is unbelievable now it's like torture simulator like that trailer is like basically like look you push the button torture the gun David David did you did you see the red band trailer from it'll go and banter there's a red band one at the very beginning basically just added some way somehow implying that the at the other trailer is like not gruesome or you have is the beginning of the other trailer there's a child yeah I'm spoiling it is a child you can't boil a trailer it spoil trailer thank you cuz are so today when you see this your note he's like there are more hands in a child's guts and you can see the guts and they're trying to pull out a package that's a lot can we pull out your trailer back there I can you know whatever him whatever you do can we just I would like to watch the trailer I know like you can fancy the rating of the Vord cast here the right hand have you ever seen the red band verge cast it opens his hands in the child that sounds to her we're just dancing the whole yeah why why uh so do you see it and you didn't see any metal gear stuff I didn't know we were running around it but it's the same thing it's like if you've seen the trailer you've seen what we've seen here and that's been sort of the frustrating thing about and so who you haven't been able to play any of these games the next gen consoles so we got to play rise a little bit we got to play some of the other games we got to play killer instincts the new fighting game yeah we got to play arkham origins to do batman game but we only got two played on a ps3 I got to play some of the sports games we are so there's there's stuff floating around but it's some of like the really cool games like it's really clear that quantum break they have built exactly as much as they needed for a trailer and that's it welcome our break is the one that's like also the TV analog right dry sci-fi show right it's it's a mix of ya to mix of like a TV show and a game and the conceit is amazing and if they can pull it off it's gonna be really really cool but it's gonna be really hard did he address the fact that sci-fi is doing this how it defines and it's kind of like not connected at all like they try to make it connected it's like not kind of working evidence I do you have the trailer back there I see you working all right what's your buns my ETA hey don't worry I really do not want to see this trailer no by then we have to watch it okay a Jedi wanted I would like to get a live reaction shot of David watching this trail you can't see it from here whatever I'll just hear it technically off somewhere um sorry David I have to ask uh so when I was growing up like killer instinct was the fighting game for me like it was my favorite of all time how was the the new one it it's the same like it's a fighting game no I mean that's the thing in like to some extent that's a really good thing and that's been one of the interesting things seeing here is like they're they're building some stuff into these new games and some of the best ones are like really trying to do cool new technologically ambitious things like destiny trying to marry this sort of open world game with a first person shooter it's like halo and warcraft and it seems wild and it's gonna be really fun and I'm really excited to play it and I was another game we didn't actually get to play because there's it's clearly not ready at all um but a game like killer instinct is just like a better-looking version of your game that it's always better sounds appropriate seems to be the same way and like they're all still video games and they look nice sorry are pretty let me show you the most amazing video game else on this is a red band trailer can we for Metal Gear 5 we please all says we're gonna watch was reception yeah viewer discretion highly who are our viewers it's they're fine they're they're fine look it's red look oh my god this is my mean snake look like kefir at all by the way David can't can you see the screen all the way over here I'm aware that there's a screen I can't really see anything I I seriously want to cut away before can somebody narrate me like an you narrate this for me there's a man turning a wheel do we he's charging he's gonna torture a guy with electricity now well she's sparking the things together not for any nation then he's torturing i know that's a girl that's a lady to lady oh well so I'd like to okay we can we can stop this now I was reminded that's your any ideology as far as i know all over the neighborhood metal gear now are now robots controlled by a central AI known as GW you know we don't roll by the Patriots wait wasn't that for all so that's what he says yeah look like the New England Patriots you the new ink Tom Brady tortured a woman and then you knew it that's that's why it's what he's doing I mean mmm oh crap what right forgot the name of Tom Brady's first wife Bridget Moynahan that's Bridgette muy yeah thank you thank her look that game to me seems insane but that's like the level of game like the stories these games are getting so like wildly tilted into crazy like barriers like the pin it like everyone else is going to wear metal gear is because it you can't make 50 games in a series without constantly upping the stakes right III better there is no other game in the world like metal gear in the metal gear saw and you know you look at the wiki it doesn't make sense but kinda makes sense in that world yeah why do you want to talk about storytelling in games um and I kind of want to bring brian bishop over she around you he's he's somewhere around in this this area he's mostly just hanging out with George Lucas and Steven Spielberg right like we're tossing about storytelling in games nobody's talking about from so uh David you think you're gonna come back for for WWDC talk though so don't count okay all right I'm let me I'll go get Brian good i'm gonna dim the screen what is brian not available to us I thought he's real Brian's coming he's just like six feet away from me so when I say go get I'm just gonna do waive it okay then we're gonna do this great when we hear Brian talk we'll we'll just put the screen back good beautiful this is quite a little bit of business if you do look look look reel productions production values there I just just do it again all right tell me about storytelling it there's not much to say really cuz that's what it is right but now I'm gonna explain to you metal gear solid okay so actually it's nice no way no what no what is this stephen siller enjoying Lucas are you trying to uh no so Steven Spielberg and George Lucas like they had this talk and Brian was actually there he did a couple stories on it probably trying to pull it off but the two things that were interested me one was he talked about the they talked about the utter demise of the theater business as we know it look more like a Broadway model mm-hmm so that was interesting these things become more events in the day and date stuff with a home the theater just kind of happens more yeah and the other thing that was interesting to me was a storytelling they're like it's never gonna be Shakespeare yeah like you're not video games and video games yeah why is that I hear Brian I hear Brian um but there's just one line that allows like by its very nature there cannot be a plot in the game I think the thing they're getting at is like you become an active member and so you yourself are making these decisions or you're not making decision you don't have an emotional resonance to ya things always been the issue either you're kind of along for the ride which then is not really a game it's more of a movie we're actually having material impact in which case you're always gonna do the right thing are you gonna die and reset your saving lowes there's no there's no emotional resonance for you there's no like nothing at stake choices don't matter right Brian are you back are you here hey guys what's going on Brian Brian were gonna fade you up well you are look at that oh yeah television magic right there whoo Brian so you were you were you talked to Steven Spielberg today oh yeah we say a slap he's a cool bro he's cool yeah so ya know it's a he and Lucas they spoke of that panel at at USC on a Wednesday that USC had an interactive media school kind of opening up and Don Mattrick from Microsoft was there supposed to be about the future of entertainment in terms of you know new art forms and that kind of stuff and Lucas quickly turn things over to two things he wanted to talk about because George Lucas needs to own every conversation is what we learned why it is this a bad thing I mean sound like a way more interesting conversation than it was gonna hear from George Lucas and done that oh yeah no it was fascinating i mean Mattrick was you know very polished in our message where you know scoobert and Lucas were actually talking about real that they were passionate about you know and it was a it was awesome Noah's fascinator station games can't have a plot tell me about this what they say yeah well Lucas's big thing was that you know tell me there's two different things there is a their storytelling which is one person you know it's like me telling you a story about how I did this thing whatever and you think about the plot and what happens and the stories and the characters and the themes and then there's games my idea is once you have agency or free will and something and it's not really a story anymore it's it's something else and you know Lucas's point was that you know games basically you know they're just now adding characters to movies that realize that makes it a richer experience but they don't have a set plot and that kind of hinders we can do so his notion is that line Nia that Ross was mentioning about you can't have fought us it's you know saying that it's like you know you can't put out you know a sports game which is what Lucas is saying video games are more likely because players can do whatever they want essentially mm-hmm but I mean look here's your here's my here's my response that's because a I would point out that roger ebert made this exact argument like five years ago and was like roundly shot down by the games community right well this works argument was that or video games art or not and I think I think it's easy to say any creative endeavor can be our that's kind of looks like a given when you step in what is the entire thing was like a game of chess can never be art because it's a game right you win or lose and there's a mechanic mechanic creates drama and drama creates emotion if you're only metric is you're creating a motion and that's art like then a game of chess cart so little video games can't be that because the story you can't invest the story when you make when you have an unlimited number of consequence free choices so what he right well he should have said was it's not storytelling looks like a painting doesn't have a story is just a freaking painting sometimes right that's the differentiation is like you know it's storytelling a basically traditional Nordic narrative storytelling I mean to be fair it's not live video games are video games are something different the whole conversation calls out for a different definition which is really interesting because we're now in this space Rahul are trying to meld narrative you've got quantum break you've got you know you know the destiny no video game and TV show or not destiny I'm the sci-fi show and drawing a blank defiance defiance thank you you know where people are kind of trying to merge the two and you know we need a new definition because that's the way things are going but I it's a nuanced target but they're right it's not traditional storytelling it's just something else that can't have emotional impact but it's not you know at one point Lucas compared Spielberg you know what he was doing to to Homer which is really really hilarious in spirit that was hilarious but in a sense that's true like that traditional structure of I'm going to tell you a to be here's what happened is going to take you on a journey it's not the games are doesn't mean games are worse or better you know in my opinion is just that there's something different sure is it even worth it to try to tell a story in a game because every game now is full of story right i mean that's and there was a cod versus piece there's a great piece about III that was like we keep building all this technology and upping the graphics level and increasing the interactivity and they're always like and then we'll be able to tell even better stories about our characters i don't remember i wish i had opted out my head where this link was um I think that's everybody everywhere talking about gaming right but there but the point of this piece and I will find it will put it in the post wave one that the verge hats goes up but the point was you're lying right you're not building all this technology in the service of better storytelling you're not building it to make deeper characters or anything that anybody actually cares about you're doing it to create first-person shooters and all these games all of the bleeding edge games for all these systems are first-person shooters or possibly third-person shooters right I think you're saying like I will say the best video games driver I've ever had like that ever experienced and this is gonna be the word one is left for dead and there is no story it's for people who all just have equal footing in there fighting zombies and like literally I think it's like uh joy success Griffin macro like who will sacrifice himself for other peoples with three people can get out there like that's a great story to me but it also speaks to like what video games do best its immersion like their world building there may be side stories that happen other characters doing their thing but when it comes to you controlling yourself like there's only so much you can anticipate for that right there kids awfully tragic cuz you have a machine gun or a cheat code right there's also things like what tell tales doing you know the walking dead is really interesting because that is you're going on an emotional journey there you know you feel bad if you do bad things I mean they have ways they do it there's a technique there's a Clementine character it's not just like here we're telling you the story there's tricks that they're using essentially right that is an emotional experience and I think that's the gray area that's interesting and if anything you know that's what's developing now and that's maybe the area that Lucas was jumping over and not kind of seeing because he's simply thinking of you know like you said Neil I triple a first-person shooters and then you know the movies you see on television or a theater there's this new emergent ground that we're interesting things are happening it's just not what we think of as traditional storytelling or narrative they're not frankly I find it intolerable i mean that's just it's just so much like it's funny I feel very binary I feel I understand Spielberg's pain uh no it's I do it's either I want to relax and like not do anything or I want to like play a video game and it's very rarely that I want to do some weird hybrid to in the middle and to ryans point like I actually I think month ago I started doing the walking dead game yeah and I had to turn off because it's an emotionally trying game like when i play games most the time i'm just trying to relax and hang out like walking dead i'm actively involved and there's so many unintended consequences like the choices on making that I don't realize yeah I have a hard time conning choices my regular life the unintended consequences of it should i do every day are like alrighty terrible alright Brian I'm gonna kick you out get out get out of my face I love you guys I really enjoy talking you will talk to you again look Ashley won't know we're gonna talk to you at man of steel later okay well we just talked about now then bring David back for dub dub alright fine we'll stay here and tell me about Superman without soiling it is it possible for a Superman movie to be good my theory is no I think know also and I saw it earlier this week and I still say you guys are seeing it I haven't seen I'm gonna see they're not gonna spoil it here's what I think you can be a Batman guy or Superman guy and I think the world is full of Batman guys where Ben ladies and the Superman faction is dead it's over and done with here's what I'll say and we had you know Todd Gilchrist for a great review for us basically talking about how the movie was you know the you know it was like basically the son of two fathers in this case you know Nolan and Zack Snyder yeah and it definitely is that it's it's a zack snyder movie first and has Christopher Nolan character beats if you loved you know the way that sucker punch and watchmen worked and looked then a lot of the stuff you will dig if it's not so much your bag maybe you'll have problems with it I think what it does whether you like it or not it does prove that Superman can work in a modern context cuz that was the big question right he's a do-gooder he's a you know you know he have any workouts because we're very like cynical it's an angsty Superman it's a guy the way when you said that out loud the computer literally made an error beep sound I want that skype doesn't believe you cuz I don't know I just don't it's like look it's the same problems video games how do you raise the stakes of anything when your main character can do anything right what are the challenges that he will face and as far as I can tell the challenges well another character with the same abilities always has to appear in either kill him or blow up the world okay that's every Superman story from now on till the end of time I mean the larger option story of course you're correct cuz it's gonna be some sort of villain the stakes have to be that big because apparently every movie has to have steaks where it's like a James Bond thing if the world isn't you know isn't imperiled and nobody cares the main character he can do anything right so what they do is they internalize it what happens is basically the struggle what's interesting about and this is the Nolan influence I'd argue that it's about Superman's internal struggle dealing with who he is what it's like to be you know in a world where you know he's not accepted it's very much about you know his son Colonel struck with who he is I got actually dis effect and they look at a fighter i hate it whenever it's not i don't think it's entirely successful I have you know horse I perfect no matter what I do that but as the worst does he shave my god look look no I'm gonna go see it maybe maybe my mind will be changed I'm just saying as a concept like that for me is right like Batman's a detective that's all I got to say he's a really easy detective yeah I think it proves the character really were effective soon as successful as i would have liked it to be yeah i think it's gonna be huge it's already made like I think 21 million dollars if I gonna break June records it's already made a hundred seventy Superman Returns made a bunch of module in that well super turns made 200 overall they're expecting this is gonna make a hundred Elise by the end of the weekend and Superman had a five day opening weekend Superman Returns did this is gonna kill superman returns no good finally something visual it let it find the taste of that can oh look I'm saying how did I go sit I'm just I it just to me it's like how how do you make back here they tried really hard to make the character relevant I just don't believe that it's possible right I believe the world the world has transitioned transitioned to a Batman state and we we we are we are in our heart of hearts America our Batman but you do realize these Justice League both yeah that's a doll how do you is it dumb all right oh that's dumb all that crossword look I don't knock on wood you're coming out here right away we've now hit the point of our chest where people are gonna send an angry note saying I don't understand games I'd understand comics and both of those things are true I don't understand either of those things and I like most Americans know the Batman is awesome in video games are killing people can you go go go get David I'm gonna fade you down ok guys do you do your little business your production magic Ross Miller senior editorial producer the verge making making a quality for her I it up right down thank you guys um so weird have an iOS 7 you were there though I was there so Josh and I spent Monday was a big day for us Josh I were at WWDC that President teen was III I WWDC for us was a crazy as ever so the room two thousand more people in the room at WWDC this year that's what I people told us I'm just paralegals like they just fit more chairs and things like it's always sitting no chairs yeah and and we were very like you know like applets it's funny like comparing how Google and Google's in the same room like three weeks right for i/o literally the same room and just comparing like how they run their events is like very interesting it's also a developer focus that are supposed to put iOS developer done they both are right but just comparing like Google had a show like yeah there was like a village set up outside you know they had like partners they're demonstrating stuff like Google zeikos it's a much smaller event if he were people but it's interesting how much bigger the number they have just they just do more stuff right like google has chrome and Android and a TV plan so I was just watching all that unfold was very interesting Apple is very focused yeah well just mean that's just the two it's funny chiz like I want to talk about WWDC I'm back I had talked about all right here you go so anyway so we go in there and we do we go through henan item hi uh you know it's a Tim Cook keynote much different vibe um much of it was let i think that the sort of parlor bet before the keynote was whether johnny i would get on stage right a lot of people thought he would he had to basically he didn't he had a video I think his video is ridiculous has he ever been on say to them he's gonna he's been on say hi phone thing he did no he did a macbook air ocean he he was on say he explained it and he very slowly talked about extrusion which ever ever just go watch that that's amazing um is that the term for pulling things out of the envelopes no it's because that's how they make the the bottom panel the air right they extrude a piece of aluminum and then they they'd all the CNC operations it's like great it makes it makes milling aluminum seem like the most interesting thing you can do wish it probably is anyway said Ivan catan sage he did a video about iOS 7 which if just just watch it with like new eyes you know like at the time it's like very emotional you're seeing all this new stuff there it is like keep in mind this is the big interface reveal for iOS 7 so we're seeing all these new features we're seeing all this new stuff he's talking about it but if you go back now that iOS 7 is kind of familiar and watch it you're like wow he's talking really slowly I'm like you're stupid but he's just very slowly explaining to you that like Apple is better than you it's kind of it's kind of a unique I think a lot of the reaction to iOS 7 came from this reveal and I want to talk about that a little bit more because I think there's some really smart things here I think there's some really dumb things here but I think the way they showed it off and then the way they've talked about it since are so different right that it's a lot of the initial reaction came from this video night I encourage people just go washed in because it's this really interesting anyway so wait go ahead sony III can you explain that a little more actually cuz I've been the you know the way you've been out of e3 I've been kind of out of WWDC this and and I've seen like a lot of the reaction online and a lot of you know the way people are talking about it ahead of time and like I tweeted something snarky right after it happened but uh what so this this this video was the first reveal yeah so this is so yeah so the way WTC structure was there like and now we have a new version of those tan it's called Mavericks right major new icon Craig federighi he was now the head of engineering for iOS and OS 10 it was like the star of the fifth yeah he's great he's great presenter yes extremely handsome in five days very I can spend one day of my life looking like Craig federighi that day would be tremendous uh you know he's just be very much smoother a polish a great told a lot of jokes like just on his game right great presentation for us 10 OS 10 is getting a lot of features are like power user features um it's not like the finder ends up yeah tab finder they've got tags like you can tag in the file system there's better better multi-screen support for full screen apps it can get iOS notifications which i think is interesting and kind of random it's just cool stuff I'm actually really excitable you can reply if you get a message messaging identification you can click right on the notification reply which is like what you just do that for the iphone right everybody's asking you to do this on the iphone it's like three years fine fine do it they're just like move it overnight dear but like so you know us and and then they're done and they you know now let's talk about iOS and Tim Clark introduced to the video Johnny I talking and then after that's done federighi comes back out to demo everything but what the disconnect was and I this is really i think they clearly had some concept of why they made these changes right and they never said why right there like we just knew was time to make changes we reconsider the entire interface to get rid of clutter and did you know think about layers and depth and and it's like okay you knew it's like you knew you had some answers like some questions and here are your answers but you are not telling me why those are the answers but in any way shape or form and didn't really get rid of clutter at all i could think the same it looks like a complete mess yeah like just an utter garbled mess like I think command control center it's the new you swipe up from the bottom you get all these icons and stuff in control center it's like why doesn't that go up the screen all the way right like why is that why does that only cover half of the screen I was orders of the screen there's like all kinds I the number one criticism iOS 7 oh you know we've we've now had the developer builds are out in the world we've had a chance to play with it when you aren't when you look at the lock screen it's a swipe to unlock and there's an arrow pointing up underneath it it but that's not how you will mock the phone like it digitally you still do the same motion but you can only do it one direction so if you swipe from the right to left it just like down circulus if you swipe up you get control center and so it's like it's just this very confusing like it's it's almost like they've expected people to internalize how the iphone works so much that they can add in queues for other behaviors and expect that your muscle memory will keep you within the realm of sand right so if you if you're a new person you pick this up you're not gonna get it David I'm sorry menurkey one second if we're gonna tell one minor nuance that I've been watching those people don't exist no first of all fair enough I think wasn't a thing god that's that's not an unreasonable expectation I don't think like I don't think for Apple to say you know that you swipe left to right to unlock your phone so we're just gonna I don't let you do that move on other stuff I don't think that's unreasonable at all I would say that it's the pendulum swung too far I think the everyone's screaming for redesign you've got all these textures all these real-world objects you know you need to clean it up make it better and what they did was they they radically changed the core ideas of the interface and I'm just saying look the thing they didn't do they didn't explain why they cheat like they reach the answers that they reached and if they just done that they're like look we know we need like an interaction model that's like you know controls happen on this layer like we're building all these layers and like here's why we think the layers work they do mm-hmm I think people would have bought into a little bit more instead it was like a lot of like here's our interface it's really flashy and then they like stopped all right and that's one thing it's weird because it seems like Apple is usually really good at doing that they're usually really good at saying like this is you know here's how we sort of imagine the user interaction and kind of guiding you through like here's why this looks the way it does yeah and they just date I guess just didn't do that here like that it might exist this video of Johnny I've like whispering to you about how design is simplicity and simplicity is the essence of design it's like that's great dude and I I desperately want to get drunk with him like I just want to know what he talks about um I just I'm just curious like that to all the I bet it's not as easy always talk really sure about your beer well it's it's so yellow like I mean just the yellowest yellow I could find a head it's so simple yeah it's just like you know it's it that's fine but like usually in those moments when you reveal a new thing you explain why the newness makes sense I just didn't see any of in like I am told over and over again by hundreds of angry Apple fans on Twitter that if I was a developer and I was there and I was of the sessions I would hear Apple explaining to its developers why they made these choices and I trusted that is true and the developers aren't the people they have to be explaining this right that's the thing like the developers have to make apps and that's great but ultimately people have to use the phone and millions upon millions of people have to use the phone and let's not forget like come whenever it comes out this fall like the people who do not follow this as well as they do like our parents or whatever they're gonna wake up they have an update and then their phone is entirely different and we're gonna get phone calls about that far absolutely and not just different it's that's the thing the pendulum has swung so far with ios7 that it's um it's like really bright and gay I think it looks like board shorts I think it looks like like like hollister or like curly like white board shorts like neon print on them the pallets are super bright the colors are neon there it's just they need to just bring it back a little bit and I i think they honestly didn't know I think it's very trendy in terms of design and I think they need to bring it back to timeless but I think that's really important for them to do here's my big question and I tweeted a picture of the control center saying it was hideous and a bunch of people responded saying the background is the biggest problem and I think that might be true because they've seen a couple of people running it with like with third-party app icons and it's not quite this like stock out of the box thing that Apple wants you to have and it seems like the biggest mistake Apple made was just having this like horrific parallax each inning background where like it doesn't have to be that bad and you can like pull it back a little yourself is that I know it's fun to do that that is true i mean it's all transaction right what's funny is that i remember very clearly when the first OS 10 came out and i would down I was in college and I would download themes for my OS 9 that made it look like I was 10 and nobody knew it OS hadn't really worked like and all the windows are blue because people thought the windows are blue instead of just being translucent to the stock blue background oh wow and I think that's kind of what's happening with Iowa seven right now is that we're we're seeing all these interactions all these translucency of these filters all this stuff interact with some things at Apple's setup and not with what it looks like in real life right but at the same time it's like why is it translucent why is there a button in control center that turns on the light is a flashlight but if you push the camera like switches out to a camera app like those are inconsistent interactions right like yeah and some of it makes sense and some of it doesn't why they have it today view which is very much supposed to be like Google now right so you open the Notification Center you click on today it pulls in your mail pulls in your calendar and says it but it doesn't like do google now stuff like it doesn't like read your email might tell your flight information which is fine it's you know apple doesn't have that service but it's also like i can't plug in my third calendar to that so if I if I as I do use gmail and summarize for mail and calendar like I like iOS 7 doesn't they don't help me out and I just like I don't see it like they need to expand the universe like they're turning it into more of the computer right but giving it real multitasking they're giving it all these there's a bunch of new Bluetooth stuff for watches and health monitoring which is all looks very cool they're doing game controllers which i think is awesome right and they have prototypes and I like the reports out of wwc that I've seen like they're building their working with logitech to actually build like game controllers that fit overly that you can't obviously see how that stuff will come to the apple TV right there doing all of this stuff to expand the functionality of their devices but they're not doing stuff to expand the world of software that you run and experience on those devices there it's like it's window dressing like they think they've repainted the interface but they're well and that's fun right if Apple can do their own services in a way but apples milk it's just sense but they're not doing extreme ill clear mail clients this new i work in iCloud thing doesn't seem good no so that seems awesome oh let me know so it's like if it does okay that's fine but one part of it seems awesome let me be clear all right it's really super hyper advanced right it's like I was talking to like other people from other companies and they're like that I cloud stuff is the most advanced stuff we've seen on the web like in terms of building a web app like drag an image onto the thing and the text reflow is like very few people are doing that stuff yeah we have to see like what how many browsers will it run on you know like there's some questions there that stuff is great but then all of the backend stuff which is like he wrote a really great web app without thinking that it's on the web so like then stuff like the live collaboration like how it's going to work across platform like like if you send it to 50 people like where the documents live how you can share them all of that stuff is still like open questions so it's like Apple is really good at building the web apps they're not really good at building the web services I think that's going into wwc I think the criticism that we've all gelled on I wrote a piece on this is that if Google is Apple's competitor right then the problem for apples at Google's getting better at services faster than apples getting better at design right and I think all we saw 3d out google's getting better faster sorry I've been talking about recently Google's wedding getting better at services fashion apples getting better at design and even like the hardcore Apple fans have agreed with this notion like John I got this line I stole it from John Gruber who stole it from an apple employee yeah down the line right nothing at wwc was about services they were I was all about design and I just want to like focus on the notion that Apple can't rely and design this way they can't show off a new mac pro be like we still kick ass the design and computers basically Phil Schiller said we can't evade me more my ass that's great man nobody has ever said that you can't innovate in computer design or tablet designer phone design like clearly you can do those things where your problems are is your service offerings compared to your biggest competitor are subpar and like that's reality like people in their consumer lives rely on other big service providers like you know hotmail and yahoo mail are still like the most common mail providers like out there Gmail's third iCloud I don't think is on that list in that way in a meaningful way and that's just email there's so much other stuff so if you're going to build an integrated hardware software service solution you need to elevate your service offerings to the level that your hardware and software are known to be at but then wouldn't their counter be that they've built this incredible third party app ecosystem that sort of alleviates that'd be great let me licet gmail is my default mail client well okay fair but then I mean that's yeah that's a huge from but the back rounding stuff they've improved does help that you know that stuff is cool the idea that you can get a push notification silently in the background right that will like is he that will update an app and you'll never know you just update the open twitter and it'll just be like they're all that's great they've caught up to Android in that respect tremendously whether we're Android is pulling ahead and where Apple may not even want to go is Android is quickly turning into like a little computer right and the iphone is turning into whatever it's strained and that's fine those paths can be divergent but at the end of the day I don't think the trend of i have an iphone which is the phone that i want to have and i've replaced most of apples apps with party apps that hasn't changed and apples are really worried about that because once the experience of using those services is subpar on the phone and I'm replacing all their stuff with other peoples that means might is my willingness to change platforms for a better experience for the services gets higher I mean we've seen this happen at the verge like this is everybody's everybody's Android on the verge right we had this huge shift from everybody using an iphone to everybody using Android because the google experience is so much better and it became something we became really reliant on and it's like for gmail and google calendar and Google Drive it's like it's not it i will say like if you you know that's just because we run our business on Google a track right but like I think a lot of people run their lives in google apps like my sister my wife like my parents like their googled up like they just use google stuff because they trust Google Google's there for them and it's there no matter where they go where is with iPod with Apple it's like you have to have your device or have your computer like it's not it's just tightly integrated or it's not as dispersed it's tightly integrated to a device now if you have like if you're all windows DUP which I know a lot of our readers are like the iphone is actually like so better for you than android phone because it's better exchange especially now with office for the mayor's office right like there are differences i get it but like I feel like Apple spent all their time focused on look at our crazy-ass design and they did not explain why they reach the design decisions they made apart from you know they're they're really feel good videos about why they say no to 100 projects only yes to one which is like okay but why is everything translucent like just tell me tell me the answer that question and they did not address I think they're their failings in the service space they didn't they talk about I called once and it was to bring it to my work which is like that's great but you didn't this is your developer conference and you know else is running pieces about how I cloud is failing developers you know what we got a bigger cheer than iWork for iCloud if they would've been like and now when you play a game on your iPhone it syncs to your iPad and like that's all I would want so they didn't get there um maybe there's an endless amount to say about wwc but those are those are kind of like Mikey mmm like takeaways and I know it sounds super negative we've gotten a lot of you're being too negative at WWDC but the stakes for this one we're so high and what people wanted were so high out of this ios7 refresh that I think that the criticism is warranted because I think Apple showed up and they thought that they won the day and I think the reality is they did a lot of beautiful things with ios7 they did a lot of extremely confusing things with iOS 7 and they still haven't I think that the the notion that you're going to upgrade the software on your phone and everything's gonna be better and it's me automatically better than Android it's not there yet I think they need to explain how the services tie-in why the software makes wait does yeah I mean it's just to me it all feels really defensive it feels like they they read all this news about people saying oh it's skeuomorphic the design hasn't changed since 2007 and so they came out and said let's just change everything let's make sure that no one can accuse us of having a design that we've had before yeah and and seriously and it's like this big thing of like oh it's stale and they're not paying attention and they're not innovating and they're like well you can't like you know in the sense that innovation can be a bad thing but you can't accuse Apple of not thinking differently and blowing it up and starting over and like maybe that's what they were going for me turn it back I think we can talk about Saul David we seriously have to go we have to go we have to go oh where am I going we are the studio is kicking us out so our Studios goodness yes they have something after this look well look uh Microsoft people I hate your platform android people it's a fragmented mess in Apple people i mean just chaos you're all doomed and like their game video games are terrible and comic books are for children and that's the verge cast everyone i'm gonna go cry rock and roll done are we done I don't know if we're done or not you can tweet at us I'm just keep talking you can tweet at us how they turn this off it turns out you