Gadgetory

hey welcome to the verge have special edition battle vs samsung right at the top of this I would like to apologize for having dad hair I think when I think I look I think I look like I've terrible hair that's not a problem you know why because we're talking about well your stuff and I should look responsible so this is a virtue at special edition we're here to talk about apple vs samsung the ongoing trial that is now actually wrapped up the jury is deliberating we don't know what's going to happen and i'm joined by two people from our team who are experts in everything apple vs samsung madakari and on the phone still at the court his nap not gone home brian bishop o big o thought on hey Matt how's it go man that's good so you like it's just like Brian judge Koh and one other reporter yeah just Clea even hanging out I like to call her Lucy is that allowed yeah does anybody called her Lucy I feel like McIlhenny would have called her losing effort lucky who Lucky's good so it's been a characterize us as a monumental week in this case in in its way for the entire tech industry and the on a monday we had jury instructions um right so i would happen on monday no monday they argued about the jury instruction yeah yeah exactly I Monday they argued about what jury instructions they would give to the jury done what happened what happened on Tuesday something happened on Tuesday right Tuesday basically the Ravager instruction as a Carreta jury instruction which took around three hours or so which was oh it's Wednesday that's what's wrong with me I thought it was thursday because i'm usually in this room on Thursdays that's I'm sorry Brian look continue yeah well basically I mean yesterday was kind of not because they never got off you know showed up super early I mean on the very first day of the Father this huge line like sneaking outside I mean kind of a rekey that yesterday and people were really really hyped for this you know it's a big deal yeah lots of being a you know you know satellite bands they're like you know people broadcasting this big deal and was preceded by this most three how long reading of jury instructions which was epically mind-numbing and all the air out of them people were just ready to die by the end of the basic it was pretty miserable people you know like checking their email and just you know doing whatever but after lunch it came back we finally got us the Apple and Samsung you know and just doing our closing arguments which was awesome cuz me oh you know ever faced piece last week about how we lost the narrative red you know in the last week this trial we finally saw the return of dated yesterday which is a big thing because we should be a little bit in people that have come in and I don't get really put together as a whole for the jury and but that happened yesterday so it was great to see that kind of come together again so let's talk about that a little bit um I mean I will just go through the day we're gonna spend a lot of time on closing arguments but let's talk about what happened sort of the beginning of the week and then threw out yesterday the Apple and Samsung have been and people might not know this but the backdrop to this case the entire time has been Apple and Samsung arguing a lot about what the jury instructions are going to be whether the jury would be instructed over whether Samsung destroyed evidence whether Apple destroyed evidence what the final verdict form would look like how would shape up you know Apple wanted to group products into sort of representative groups and they have been in the background argue about this pretty Vasily right we mean I definitely I mean so can you characterize some of what happened because this is now the qiyam and the jury is in a room alone and all they have to work with is what they've heard in the court obviously the exhibits they brought with them and these instructions and this form and the way they fill out that form is the way the case is going to go so he talked about a little bit back story with with the jury instructions and the verdict form yeah when one thing that was implemented happened on Monday there been months ago Apple had asked for his magistrate that rule basically tells you know whoever like you occasionally happen or the jury began deliberating how the jurors that Samsung a kind of had a bad faith with regard to evidence and they gotten worse having destroyed some evidence and he granted apples request to go and have the jurors told they've done that because the cool to us what this ain't gonna be said for Apple because their sins it when Apple had they currently hold on email because there was gonna be potentially condemn fight alright so let's go basically like you know agreed with Samsung and was going to go and tell the jurors that both Apple and Samsung had kavya place at this with evidence and Apple can obviously are you mr. nicely against that their paws that there was no edit that they destroyed anything you know steve jobs have been you know told to go and preserve emails they had a yellow in-house systems hold on to the kind of stuff was direct evidence that from samsung has been kind of missing by the end of the day go Rilla said you know by grace you guys we're going to go and we'll be at your both side at that point Apple and Samsung both said if you're going to say we both did that let's just say that just say nothing so nobody thinks anybody did that yeah that was an important thing because that's like a really kind of you know labor you know the jury's impression of sams from going into this thing and kind of cruise could have set a tone but i will didn't get that which was definitely when I can't answer yeah so basically they said okay we're gonna we're gonna read both sides did something wrong and if both sides did something wrong we'll just say no we won't we won't address it at all so that finally happened that has been going on in the back of the back of everything for a while and then the jury form which we're going to talk a little bit the final one was given out yesterday I like there was a there was a break in proceedings while they literally made copies of the form and my judge I went back to her chamber so that thing is 20 pages long it has 33 groups of questions on it and if you individualize the groups of questions in terms of claim against device and there's no 20-odd devices 28 devices 21 devices and many many patents there's actually seven hundred individual questions I think something around the area of 700 individual questions for the jury to answer on this form so that was handed out and then judge co-read was a hundred nine page 84 item jury instruction she's read it right Rancic your live of that was she's just hammering through it can you tell what was that like well it was it was impressive either this is a lot of legal language is pretty dry and she does kinda went through she's like terminator I mean issues like did not stop there was like one brief moment where there's a spike catching her voice but she just like you know went through it um but was kind of funny she's like you know this is going to be basically said this was going to be miserable so she said let's go make sure we have these little breaks where you can stand up and stretch every year 10 15 minutes or so and so we hit the first one of those every step there like all great this is miserable as he promised let's stretch around a bit but she always talks about ten seconds I'm federally right back down and it's like okay another little longer break please and people got back outside and um but she just jammed through it which it's hard to read this kind of stuff and keep people interested and fight again the jury was kind of serving at I mean Rihanna too hard not to be doing they have copies of this best it's not like they had remember everything she said it would be impossible don't you remember at all yeah but just in terms of like powering through it it was a impressive feat of stamina rehashes crank Bureau um well let's talk about the end of it a little bit because you know the top of the jury instructions to me are kind of interesting right there is there's you know we're going to give you a bunch of devices don't update them that's like to me that's like the geeky stuff right that's interesting it's like you're going to go in this room we're going to pull the sim cards out of the phone so they don't get software updates you're going to experience what they're like you get to compare them blah blah blah and at the end it's like the doctrine of patent exhaustion is a doctrine and it's like were they even paying attention at all during that stuff because that's the stuff that they need to know the most about I feel like the design patent question the trade dress question it's like pick up the phones and look at them if you think people are confused you know mark an X somewhere and then the way wonky legal questions are how much did Apple pay for Samsung's 3g patents and it's like were they paying attention when they were being informed how to make those decisions I never pay attention body was here women's know necessarily that super into it and a mechanical aunt but also I think then these questions are so new option like they're talking about legal concept in specific detail it seems like at a certain point of this campus just there with like you know wish to mesmerize and kind of go down the checklist and say does it do I think it does this and do this and just do that for you know every single device think there's two more on 28 devices that Apple's accusing the remote form or another and a two-bit dispenser you know have it and you'll have the disruptions in one hand and have the device but they're just kind of like a girl for a one by one which is why this is going to be such a long wait I think these are back to me yeah so hey Matt let's ask I mean you've done a few of these right i mean what do you think the the jury is taking away from from this part where they're being instructed how to interpret the patents look at the patents in terms of the devices understand what they're supposed to do and make decisions on a jury instruction side is just incredibly antiquated exercise it's really it's it's it's ridiculous i mean they're not absorbing anything i mean they have the sheet there if they need it now the problem is you have to you have to kind of make sure they've heard it at least once or else you know yeah or else they may never look at that particular instruction but still i mean they're not paid attention so it's just a waste of time but it has to be done so um but but i think for the most part especially with the infringement issues i mean they kind of get it I mean without going through all the elements of anticipation and obvious pneus and whatever else instruction they got whatever other instruction they got there they're gonna kind of get it I mean one thing about this case that for the jury at least is it you know no matter how many devices you look at at least on Apple side no matter how many Samsung devices you look at it's it's not that tough you know I mean yeah infringement and you know look of it and you could kill off some patents you can find non-infringement whatever but it's not it's not that much work though yeah the real work is just trying to figure out how to kind of memorialize that as you're walking through the procedure on that jury instruction on the the verdict form right site so I mean it which normally is like two or three pages long in the regular case by the way rights okay you know just to compare to the one the last trial we covered which is google and Oracle that verdict form was like really straightforward right it was was this patent valid was it infringed and you should when town the line this verdict form brian i mean i would say it's like 10 times more complicated the other one I'll absolutely i mean Elkins and all these specific devices you know to it's like you know each step answer you know each question for each patent on each device as you know well at times three right and this is anthony's x 3 so this I i think is the the layer of complexity that we've we've never talked about and if you're wondering why we're spending a lot of time talking about jury instructions and this stuff it's because closing arguments are great but the question that they're answering in that room is not did Samsung copy Apple it's 700 individual questions that add up to did Samsung copy Apple did Apple copy Samsung and that's crazy so without knowing what they have been without basically setting the stage for them they won't be able to do it I mean they literally won't have the tools to answer these questions I was you know just before we were starting we were saying like where you look at the forum right John our producers sitting and staring at me I mean you look at the formula Kai Reed tech news all day long and it's like how do you answer the question did I was this trade dress diluted in the marketplace like I don't know and the jury only has what they're given to understand that so that's why I mean I think it's really important that we kind of understand what they're trying to do before we go into what the emotional um you know the emotional content the closing arguments was and I to me what I think is really crazy is they you know there's like huge charts in the charts say things like did samsung electronics in Korea infringes patent did samsung telecommunications America infringes cotton or did samsung electronics america infringe this patent and it's like yeah who knows the difference between those three companies and I like to know if Brian Braun says he was there every day I mean how much did they really even explain the distinctions between those companies to the jerk summer yeah the most of it came from Justin Denison who testified pretty early on I believe Apple called him actually but he's a samsung executive now something that came up right in the beginning but it was one of those things where there wasn't necessarily a lot of context and groundwork laid for when he testified about it it was kind of like you know details that were being thrown of the jury and it was one of those things you're like okay how is this going to you know come into play later you know and then you kind of see okay here's why it's important later they touched on the closing arguments of this but its own yeah there was a long time ago there's been a lot of information to him since then and it is one of those things where you kind of do have to look that's where the jury instructions can come into play and the verdict forms you can specify you know you know why those because are different you know how you figure out which one is countered by what you know there's you know is it them it just did the Korean company basically it will compel you know the other companies so therefore they're responsible as well known all those you know those minor issues that weren't really handled specifically in a testimony apps mccauley get laid out for the jury yeah but that's so dumb I mean it's just a trick I mean it is it's a trick it's it's apples getting away with it because Samsung isn't one company right so Samsung has all these subsidiaries in United States Sam I mean I know I know the difference i'm just saying i don't think i think we think of samsung is one company but it's not right there's samsung in Korea there's today I'm some telecommunications America which sells everything basically with a cell radio in it and there's samsung electronics which tells the other things which is crazy I mean that is like classic insane samsung right i mean that's like the galaxy tab with Wi-Fi gets sold by Samsung Electronics the galaxy tab 4G LTE gets sold by samsung telecommunications that's bonkers but like whatever but it's Apple gets another crack at it because they get to accuse Samsung Korea of inducing its American subsidiaries to infringe patents that's crazy I mean that to me that's like I'd even know I don't even know what that could possibly be like that's like I like math give me an example what why I can't but you like you understand why I think this is so dumb yeah well inducement matter of fact when we were talking about this on something we're working on the first time I saw a doucement I mean when you see inducement in a patent case it's normally dealing with basically you're trying to get a company put them on the hook for something neighs sold to an end user and the end user is infringing but you're never going to sue the end user you're going to sue the company that actually whatever puts the method out there and whatever it is that that's infringed it's weird to kind of see it in this in this regard where you're using it to capture a party in the suit it is one party I don't know I'm just sewing after direct infringement yeah I don't know it's I don't it just looks like a one option it is a gotcha because that's the way they structure their business anyway so beyond I mean I'm saying that's a level of complexity in what the jury is doing right now that goes well beyond did Samsung copy Apple they literally have to decide on top of everything else did Samsung's Hydra like structure does that mean we have to punish them more because of a technicality because Samsung Korea made a phone and designed a phone and then gave it to samsung telecommunications America which then sold it to AT&T somewhere and there is there an additional piece of liability and they have to figure that out so to me what it's very interesting to talk about and we're trust me we're going to talk about in great detail what happened in the closings but what's almost to me more fascinating is the incredible job the jury has to do now in taking everything they've learned over the past three weeks and turning it into a all of these decisions if it was just did samsung copy Apple I feel like you know that's like a 50-50 who knows who knows where they will emotionally land on that after all this but deed this process now going through every mean there's a line on the jury 22 or 23 question 22 or 23 is literally a dollar sign horizontal line and then a question that says how much should Samsung pay apple and it's like you could write any number they literally come up with any number they want to put in there and they have nine people have to decide and agree and what number that is and that's crazy um any other thoughts and jury instructions guys need anything we need to talk about before I move on why I just go ahead right disagreement on the verge cast and what do I think the thing about all those questions it's also about you know app trying to take as many parts of the Apple that I mean okay go back to that also terrible fun now that takes video bites as it can because this terms of the court of public opinion apple just needs one count of infringement kind of justice everything is doing right right like he doesn't know who you know who is from if everything will be like Oh Samson did copy apples by having all those different options in there it's definitely they want this going to a play to their advantage I feel like this game for confusing as it is it does increase the likelihood that the jury will you know come back with at least something yeah okay well I was wondering yesterday of apples ultimate strategy with her and we've been saying that this is kind of the weakness of their case the complexity of the cases weakness from the beginning but you have to wonder if their strategy is just to irritate the jury into like checking off a bunch of boxes writing 2.5 billion dollars and like getting the hell out of it fabia it's hard for me to imagine them completely wiping out all of apple's claims whether it's serving validity or non-infringement I can't imagine Samsung's gonna walk away without being on the hook for something yeah um now you're right though I mean after that it's kind of arbitrary I mean what do you what's the damages and that you know they talked in the closing yesterday about his big last hurrah when he was addressing the jury was you know you know you a key you kind of have this this window is continuum between 0 and 2.5 billion dollars you know make sure it's it's it's it's high enough that it's that's more than just a slap on the wrist yeah to somehow alter their behavior and I think that's important for Apple I think I mean if they have if they got all of their infringement claims and only walked away with a minimal amount I got to think that they would be seriously worried about what the message that sends to anybody else that wants to kind of take this line you know developing iphone light devices or iOS like operating systems yeah there's a lot of that outcomes for Apple and there's a lot of bad outcomes for samsung in the middle of walking away scot-free and getting paid 2.5 billion dollars so Brian let's let's let's shift gears and talk about the closings yesterday I think yesterday was it start you know it's agree with you it started out with this incredible anticipation that was crushed by judge Koh reading the jury instructions but they picked back up again in the afternoon when closings really did start so you want to walk us through what happened there yeah I'm you know Apple started basically and then post I've had two hours and both sides basically did like you know their closing arguments may add you know they're so kind of rebuttal section and so you know Apple was you know really really smart and they're almost dispassionate about it they're caught out of their whole know that push was you know looking at the story we think you'll figure it out though just you know look at the document you know the big push me a big push which one of kind of truth look at this is for that all of those you know comparison sheet don't answer of course that looks so bad they kind of basically back lace stuff out basically like you know boom boom boom here's the evidence we don't see how you could think any other way and it was me frankly was really affected us because it was coming off book so much random detail like to have them no brainer thing together was really satisfying it seemed like the jury was really engaged yeah and it was just a return back to you know everybody close is open really strong and I can kind of saw that return to that I'm you know you come away and it is like okay they made some good points are definitely scored there but Samsung you know their shadows along the way has you know going discredit you know Apple experts up witnesses you know belittle you know what changes maybe I had spurted the industry back hunting and they were really really effective a kind of bringing that strategy I think Oh Charles bear her religious I just crystal he was there was a sense of outrage about him he delivered really what I cheated a little bit too aggressive as I thought the most part of a trick weho know we're a company that just works really really hard and paint framed it as a matter of you know like a competition in America you know apples against America was kind of like the underlying you know subject through there so I thought this was really about Barry this stuff was really fascinating that Sam samsung came out angry and I thought I agree with you I think they did a really good job I mean they were on fire they were saying there's nothing here you know they're telling you to look at all this stuff but none of it means anything you know this is all stuff every company does there's nothing wrong with what we're doing we're just looking at the market and trying to understand what's going on there witnesses don't know anything I thought he was particularly brutal with Susan care who you know was apples expert on weather icon screamed is on one way or another and he was saying that's their expert and she doesn't know anything which is mean I mean flat out mean I'm sure she was very it's also a bit irrelevant actually I have surprised a that Apple didn't kind of go back out over that when they rebutted closing well so what Matt's getting at is in Bryan mean you were there so it may be this focusing came through a little bit differently but Samsung kept on saying there's no actual confusion here no one's really confused right there's they never showed you any evidence of confusion they never showed any surveys that could there was confusion but that's not actually the standard apple has to meet the standard they have to meet is for the trade dress stuff is a likelihood of confusion which is obviously very different than actual confusion and for the design patent stuff they have to say it was designed what Matt it's a standard is whether it has to be deceptive in the marketplace right which is a very different standard than actual confusion and so Samsung is sitting there they're hammering away on no one's ever actually been confused when the law the jury to apply is actually kind of different is that the standard for design patents Matt right it's deception it's a it's also likely to confusion to the consumer okay so ya mean standard basically I mean for our purposes we can say the standard for both is likelihood of confusion an actual confusion is a factor but it's one of like you know seven or eight or however many more they want to throw in there right and no particular one has any more weight than the other so it's a mean one of the other factors is copying an intent to copy so if I map well i would say i'd point that out especially on rebuttal after they discuss and saying you have to have actual confusion no one's confused right but i really didn't see them address that very much during the actual testimony or during the closing well i have to say though well okay sure so for me and maybe i've got this wrong they both blew their rebuttals I think we should we should save that for the end but um to me they both completely blew their opportunities on rebuttal um but does catch all time it was it was like here's a bunch of crap you've never heard about before let's talk um so but to me I you know I thought Samsung's you know he had a line very van had a line with this case you can change the nature of competition in America which to me is like a little bit ominous right I mean apples not suing motorola for copying its design right there they've got some hat and stuff in the mix apples not suing HTC they're not suing Microsoft they should be suing google but they're not it's just funny to hear you know this company accused of directly copying show up and say you can change the nature of competition America on the other side equally bad apples lawyer goes you can affirm the united states patent system with this case that's eight which to me is like dude do you want to lose like did you get paid to throw this thing at the last minute you can affirm the patent system part part of this is because we're in this kind of this world where pads are under constant scrutiny so so that really hits us is like come on it's a crazy thing to say whether or not the jurors really feel that way the guy with the that there is somebody on the juror that has multiple patents right um I maturer yummy so but yeah when I heard that just you know twitched I mean that's just why would you ever I mean I counter but if you're even if the jury like is out of the tech world if they're sitting there and they've just gone through three weeks of we have a patent on scrolling that bounces and Samsung we have a patent on playing mp3 while you look at your email I'm thinking well do you maybe you should throw out the patent system Brian what was what was your reaction to that stuff well I took the whole the whole devil this country was built on competition thing that samsung LED with was so strong compelling I took willingly went back with that you know from the patent it was Leigh that be referring the patent sister thing but it felt like a response to that you know initial you know attack because it was so effective it it is being necessarily very thought out because I don't feel like a normal person even necessarily know what that means or how real feel for that other than some sort of you know you know Michael Bay flag-waving you know gay if you know good a thing burgers / for the overall picture yeah I'm very very wealthy you say like you know the country's open competition everybody understands that that resonates a very very core level for every one of those jurors right look I mean you know things seem like a test account of it didn't really play and I felt like that's you're going for and it didn't really work yeah well you know you count your counter to that is to know let us compete is we will let you compete we just won't let you copy i mean that's that's really their story I don't know why you didn't have to get off of that I mean that's that's just as compelling so there's really no need to kind of go off this pro patent route it made no sense yeah I mean look what rock so it's a Brian you know at the sense that i'm getting is it Matt and I watched this stuff as at a distance a little bit and I got the sense that Apple's case again you know it in kind of an exemplary Apple way was very simple very like here it is like you're going to stand in line and buy one of these kind of like you know Apple moment right here's what we think it's very simple you have four options to compute the damages pick one let's get this over with god bless america right and then Samsung showed up and they're like look at all this stuff like here's this razzle-dazzle presentation like I'm pissed off I'm worried about the future of America his damages presentation I thought was really off like what kind of wild because he I think at one point he said allocated operating costs in his closing argument right and it's like why did you say those words to the jury like why did you see at any time saying those words and your closing argument and like this giant trial it was is that sense is that kind of mean again we're at a distance so is that is that sense accurate that Samsung was passionate and fiery but a little less organized Apple was a little down but you know very like succinct you're definitely correct an apple I think fans done you know they were aggressive they were very snarky and actually to meet a play best if you think about you know Apple lab and Samsung's ads recently it actually play to the perfect you know analogy to md there's a moment where their home was talking about the susan care testimony he was kind of reading her testimony back in this weird like he took on a voice this kind of like is like I'm you know using my lady voice now to play when it was it was really I didn't see the jury respond i believe negatively to it but it's felt really condescending and his whole take on Apple was this very you know murky and snarky you know who buys provides an apple of whether another product by this it felt like well you know and I've had Adams watching that that rock and roll a damn some Crowder the you know those tabs of entropy will go up to the people in the apples for lyin there like oh hey here's my notice awesome felt a lot like that I do that all the tonic by the way here's my note but what now it's awesome yeah but but she was engaged and I think there was definitely a thing to that and I'm you know jury would know they were leaning for they were really interested what was weird about the one close is that he had about 14 minutes left and he spent it all on you know defending the FB friend Pat what's up she really will draw in a weird way to close the bottle just like a strainer aim at you call it out them all weird in the face right that's just bizarre waiting for you know anything doesn't after you made these passionate principal point going to badness you know what you can leave you in the week yeah look yeah I mean okay we should talk about these rebuttals I want to spend a little bit more time on the substance of the talk a little bit right um because I thought apple made some points that kind of bear repeating and I thought Samsung made some point so kind of bear repeating before we we talk about how they blew these rebuttals because I mean to me that's a whole story unto itself but so Apple came and they said 11 line that I think is really interesting and I want to get your sense of how important you think this is going to be to the jury I think as William Lee said it took Apple five years to create this revolution and it took samsung three months to copy it that's the truth and that's simple it's clear and it's undisputed and he's making reference to Samsung saying our sales are faltering we have a crisis design they put out the galaxy s inner sales why not do you think do you think that was as in pitts impactful on the page you know we have it on our in the wrap-up article the brinded we have it you know we pulled it out and bright orange it's very impactful was it as impactful in in the courtroom it's a great line the problem is that it was basically I'm all packed here Lee nikon designers test when we talk about it from the last her last verge cast their the actually I months no I got no sleep believe my baby all this kind of stuff and there one day they'll have that but at tetra and a half of a meal and a nap of the cross-examination it wasn't a big focus on it being this no oh there is this rush job you know the basically there is like you know Samson was in crisis and had to respond and like to scream lump sprint to go and get this thing going that wasn't really framed as clearly as it could have been yeah as an argument during testimony and I so it felt a little bit i mean it's a great line but it also felt like it was when they're trying to go and put together the last night obviously the the push for chronology was a big part of their cooking ordinance overall that line in the room even though it sounded great it didn't feel like it was powerful as it you know could have been because it wasn't enough backing it up can I can I say my favorite oh go ahead man well that's a great point I mean I think some of these things often people come up with them when they're working on the closings because it's got to be kind of his compelling presentation to the jury um and I think something like that somebody had a light bulb go off and unfortunately they didn't have that light bulb go off when they're presenting all that testimony because it could have easily it could have easily worked that into the theme yeah but it'd been it would it would have been pretty powerful there's another line I can't remember it was oh I in it was it sounded like one that they probably wrote down and they never said out loud and it came off super awkward it was you're gonna have to decide who lived by the rules and who didn't live by the rules and I can just see him just being like and those who didn't live by the rules were samsung and it's like it starts out like cruising towards the impact and I just like like just explodes into nothing like it just falls apart into awkwardness you know that on so they thought it was really one of those worries like all this buzz rules and I the rosin and who didn't play by the rules is done I think like even like looking down I looked away toward that's a nose for something so it's not like blah just fell flat all right so let's talk about these are so I think the sense you need to get from the closing arguments if you've been paying attention to this is they both started off with different types of kind of emotional pleas right one is you know we may you know Apple started right off with Steve Jobs I mean they I think it was within the first sentence they had said Steve Jobs worked on the iphone four five years right like they're they're they're making the emotional connection between we worked hard and you know as matt has been saying this is their narrative the entire time where Apple we spent all the money we made the phone samsung copied it very dry very look at the pictures you can see what damage has been done here samsung came out and said this is basically right i mean i think i had a tweet yesterday characterized it as Apple's entire game plan and closing was just look at this and Samsung's entire thing was yes but let's look at it an exhaustive painful detail and that's that's I think what we get it came away from it but then these two happen to call them Joker's then these two jokers had the chance to offer rebuttals and i want to say they both utterly blew it you know they they delivered some lines at the very end of their rebuttals they got into some zingers but they kind of just wasted their time man I know you definitely got that sense you want to talk about that a little bit yeah I got it I got it with apples although I will that Apple started tying it back in at the end of the rebuttal um whereas Samsung just took the whole 14 minutes minus five seconds at the very end and just pound it on these these these issues and this is the last impression you have before this jury goes back it looks at the nightmare verdict form you've handed them and and this is and you've just completely bored the hell out of them the eyes are glazed over and I it was insane because I figured okay I'm gonna be a smartass I'm gonna say yeah this is terrible way to waste your 14 minutes and I figured four minutes into it they're gonna shift gears and get back to their theme but no they just they just kept going yes okay Brian what was the vibe there I mean to me that was like nuts like just the fact that you're gonna bring up they're gonna say in your last 14 minutes in front of your you get the last 14 minutes in front of the jury and you're gonna spend it on I you know we didn't break etsy rules because we timely disclosed our innovations to the patent board and our licenses under frandor it's like I no one cares about this right and you did it so that you sleep at exhauster doesn't apply because we sold to China yeah right well there's a problem to with then I think we touched on this in the live blog you know Samsung had some time management issues they have some throughout the trial they have some in closing yesterday when a variable is bring a sting a couple times V Sampson attorneys at much some kind of whisper hear it felt like he was you know they like okay you know morning nevada's time basically a certain point very hella start getting really really rushed this is before rebuttal is an argument these are getting really really rushed and lots of thread and then making of the other teams and afterwards or heavens like you're welcome take a break right now regroup per second they came back much stronger my team there's just a lot of stuff they didn't get that well you know in the rebuttal just through the same stuff out there and it's weird to have been stood and not been a focus in trial really I mean it was in fact it hadn't been a mission anyway hamartoma wasn't a be static point for anyone there's just information that was 78 and it's been that last bit doing it it's really weak because given the apple had clunkers they did you know they have it on their their larger you know narrative points you know and they're in their rebuttal basically you know don't thing about you know compromising our damages you know the affirmative is now they talked about overall impression being important visual icons which is in a way the samsung's try to go and tear down the comparison between the product they kind of you know they have other points out where snacks understand get out the point where their obsession he was like thank you know I said Jerry thank you very much and for walking back and just was like well you gotta put more minute she's like oh okay I shall sustain a large you no longer for thought out thank you none penetration and he still have more time and he's like okay I was the Galibier it was very very weird no that was an attention going they can see more gracious I know getting nothing to mall security after this very disorganized at the Andy yeah it wasn't great you know I mean you gotta think about this in terms of how things are normally done if you have a patent case to run of the mill pad case on a doorknob or you know some some kind of one patent maybe a handful of products that are alleged to infringe that trial can go on for a week that full week of testimony and and and you need to come out with much simpler jury instruction in much simpler verdict form but if that kind of trial goes for a week it's insane to think about how much was compressed into this case over three half weeks yeah i mean it's it's it's it's I'm not sure that they went into it I mean they knew I mean any new 24 hours was nothing really and a whole scheme of things considering the complexity of the case but it just so much you know ah some of the odd things that happened when this during his time crunch is when you have witnesses jumping up saying you know talking for five minutes and getting off the stand me that never happens I mean it's it just never happens in a regular case because I mean my guess is you're really trying to actually get the information embed it in there the jurors brain and I don't I don't know when it happens with this juror let's get it out of that jury instruction sheet which I doubt it I mean they're just gonna have to do a lot of work on their own when I get back to that jury room so let's talk about what is happening in that jury room right now so Brian did you see them when they came in this morning roads drugs i didn't i didn't see them unfortunately i would love to see them when they left today because i don't i don't think they saw the verdict Foreman Blacula for room yesterday and made us have to be miserable unhappy people i saw that yeah i mean it's it's an insane document um so they go in what's to go in well actually real quick Ryan Matt let me ask you this who had the better closing yesterday neither one of you is going to go out there I'm just Apple just because I felt like they did pull it back around at the very end yeah Ryan I think it was pretty close actually I would probably give a small edge to apple just because you know the easiest issue to discuss you know all the ones that they're presenting you know the left and there's so many opportunities for people to go and find information with what they're doing and their narrative ultimately I feel is more compelling just from a dramatic standpoint now because you know Samsung defense over all this video we had copy stuff you know form follows function and so you can't really get mad at it they brought an example of using the best he's looking for same as an example what smartphones are like and that's true but there's so many Pacific yeah you know what I didn't get about that mean it's now open season on samsung's TV design because you know they do like touch of color they've got the really thin bezels like can algae just go in there now and be like look you said all tvs look the same but it's yeah there's a lot of like dancing on pinheads there um as for me but i don't think it looks just like that's on TV that would be amazing active album puts out a TV that looks just like a samsung like touch of color TV and that would be terrific um and then i could see each other and they good leader just like switch binders like the two sides we beg here's here's what we said the last time okay cool um so for me I think I thought Sam Sun came out of the gate way stronger yesterday just because they they had the fire they had the passion and they I mean that rebuttal to me was you know the time is she dead time issues from the get-go right i mean three even the first part of the closing that tie my shoes so to me they just kind of they got caught up in losing time and instead of instead of making sure that they delivered the emotionally impactful argument which is the only thing thats you know really important i think they made sure to check all the boxes of the legal arguments and that to me that that was completely manifested in their rebuttal where they spent 14 minutes talking at friend and it's they should have spent 14 minutes talking about anything else so yeah i'll give i'm with you i give the slight edge to apple just 44 at least keeping the plot at the very end and kind of like making the impact but i thought seems like started out very strong good definitely i may have the opportunity to close may have the time and i think there was just one or two lines about you know that samsung compete freely in the marketplace instead of apple try to quote based off that is awesome stuff they should have effort on that like they did in the beginning it just kind of let the fran stuff alone but you better like the juror already were just kind of her kind of whatever about that and really in face of all the others happening it's kind of a consequential I don't think I don't think thinking that you know Samsung was a you know after the basket he confirms a brand is going to tip the scale the time pass anybody like I feel like because left it alone that's hammered on there England know ah right how impressed would you have been if knowing that the only thing you really want to talk about is friend you just say screw it and get up there to say we don't have any rebuttal no just kind of you know it's we're confident we're gonna sit down at me sometimes it's better just to shut up and sit down I mean there's there's no reason to use every minute of your time if you're not really gonna contribute to anything so I'm yeah I really it was I think I i agree Apple did a lot of the same thing I just don't think was all packaged at the end on that last impression which is really kind of what I mean Indiana I'm not confident jury's not going back there and say god I hate those bastards for doing that 14 minutes so I'm gonna screw up over on all these claims but but I do is you know everything kind of builds on itself and you get this kind of overall feeling and you know when he gets to the friend issues you meet the stuffs you know they don't know any more than they did before that 14 minutes yeah so you really got nowhere except kind of annoying them and mostly just boring him yeah so well and us I mean I will say that I got to dish out a couple hilarious tweets because they spent that was it and you know I'm just calling my own tweets hilarious that's where Matt in life that's what kind of ego monster I've become um so let's talk about it's going on in this room we've got a few minutes here we can kind of wrap this up um they're in there they're picked they they have to vote on a foreman I think that'll be kind of interesting to see who they pick at the end they've got all these devices I think it's hilarious that they have an overhead projector so they can put their bonders full of evidence up in like like my fourth-grade classroom i'll look at the same piece of paper what do you think they're going to start with i mean do you think they're going to go in order do you think they're going to skip around do you think they're going to set the form aside and just talk about the case at hole where do you would you do I i would start in the beginning go ahead boyfriend yeah positive way my friend is why i would probably look at all the invalidity stuff first because so much is a nation so fun and printing other patents be invalid l you know at the same time but i would just kind of just professed mess with Reverend where I would kind of started the lesson worth chapter there I imagine they'll probably just you know start in the order right it is high stuff that's most engaging stuff that's except you want to talk about right do you think they're gonna actually like hold up the phone I mean you know they've got all the phones in there and they one of the instructions is if you believe these design patents adequately describe a real device you can use the real device and not the patent to make the comparison so they can hold up an iphone and say does this look the same I mean do you think they're doing a lot of that to me the idea of being on the story is insane like the idea that you're alone in this room with like you know eight other strangers basically and you've got to decide whether one giant company copied another giant company to me is beyond beyond comprehension I mean but I guarantee there's at least one or two ringers sitting in that jury room that are gonna pull out every product yeah any little the same ones that you know held their hands up and answered every question in class they're gonna go they're gonna go through and they're going to at least for a while until they realize the futility of it all and then but I think for a while they're gonna built be pretty diligent and and that bodes well for Apple because if you start from the beginning and in the beginning is where it requires the most diligence because of those crazy charts yeah then I think I think that could benefit them cuz then by the time you get to Fran you're just disgusted that bottom of the jury for him so I mean I mean it's all kind of any it's hugely speculative but but I think it mostly people are gonna kind of just start from beginning because you know what else they don't really know where else to go so they're gonna kind of start driving through all these questions I was showing some of the charts to chris sigler today and he was like this is my dream I need to be able to get on this jury the idea that that any somewhere in the world right now there are nine people in a room sitting on a table like discussing the Samsung gym in extreme detail is literally my dream he was very easy heard happy that he's not on the tree I saw that the idea you know he meant it too I'm sure how he did mean it now without questioning so let's the the one last thing that I think we need to really address with a jury in the process now is how long do you think this is going to take and and I mean pretty much with every day that goes by do you think the lawyers begin to freak out more and move towards settlement dead sorry yeah Eduardo keypad not Brian's I was trying not to oh my money you go first go for it well I it's gonna last a whole I mean a long long time I don't I mean this is impossible to come out of the jury room if you've done I mean you can't get nine people do that bad of a job yeah that they would come out of that jury room in like you know a day yeah but a week or two easily I mean and as far as um whether or not you know dapple and Samsung are kind of seen this is getting scary now you know we're starting to realize what we've just done and who you know this is these night people are going to decide our fate or at least you know a big chunk of our bank account I I I have hope I mean just like you Neil I think that they're gonna you know somebody's got to start thinking about that if they haven't already I just don't see it happening is really I think the I think I think they're rolling the dice I mean I just do it's such an irresponsible crazy dice roll I mean I've to say if you are if you are apple in your or your Samsung and you're saying we're gonna let these nine people who have barely any understanding of this law we we tried to teach them out friend in literally the last 14 minutes we're gonna let them go in there with a sheet of paper that says did Samsung violate section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act and trust them to know what the hell they're doing where we could get or we could spend our time I'm actually competing by talking to apple and getting our incredibly sophisticated lawyers and business people on the phone and saying how do we make a deal that works I it's obvious which one to pick like I don't even know how you end up in this situation I think with every day that goes by they're gonna realize more and more what a gamble that they're making a nuisance yeah now I just saying like it'sit's there's a meeting with Tim Cook as general counsel and he's like so uh you think the nine guys will figure it out and give us a 2.5 billion yeah you know I did definitely it's like what meet like did that happen did that had to have happened right and that's that's how you allow this to happen Oh exactly i mean these I mean I've been in cases where you know I'm positive that the other side the other side's attorney is just feeding a lot of of to the others the opposing party and it's like nothing you can do about it right but you know this is this is a huge corporate entity with shareholders to answer to and presumably a lot of smart people involved in a decision making even on the even the ones that are talking to the litigation counsel so to me it's bizarre it's a reason 91st what is it 90 some percent of cases patent cases settle right before ever getting to the jury I mean it's it's it's the crazy gamble and in this case it's one of the biggest ever you know really so Brian what do you what you're the one you've been seeing the lawyers I mean are they just having been showing up in new cars every day and do they have giant BMW brochures like at the desk with them like what's the vibe you know everybody was super super fried yeah they like everybody like clearly nobody slept like the last grouper days it seemed like after the end of things yesterday team at all seemed to be in a very very good mood team Samsung into being a very they didn't seem excited they weren't laughing they were just there right to get out yeah because somebody probably walked up to vera and was like dude you just spend 14 minutes talking on friended on the castle yeah its mate on the and Freddie you know so like in terms of at seem good but at the same time you know after you know oracle Google Michael Jacob seemed to be in a great mood after then as well and I obviously did not go their way either right um so I mean for me in terms of the jury like I have august 31st the back of my head of the day because this jury has been through so much you know so much information so many long hours as the day before a holiday weekend you not want to come back on Tuesday and resume this thing so if we hear anything back from them i'm guessing and i'm not putting it now i'm seeing the 31st as my only likely prediction but nothing this week at all I think every day that goes along furthering me I'm stream that I think is bad for apples i think the downsides rattle here far worse my fam something I mean bathroom can be found to San first two surveys laid out like whatever like they're like they're such a huge company who cares Apple getting a bunch of its pounce that Pattinson validated at the much bigger problem for them right well yeah I mean I again I'm saying in between 0 and 2.5 billion dollars are a lot a lot I mean let's say the jury says you infringed all the apples pens how much is that worth ten dollars you know like that oh you can imagine a lot crazy but that's in there that's in the range of possible outcomes and it could happen on that's a bad outcome there's a lot of steps all the way up to all the way up to 2.5 billion dollars and there's a lot of places where I think a company would say well samsung got dinged for it they got billed or find in a couple million dollars but their products are call early better and they made you know they're down in the marketplace look fine let's put the money like put the money under the bed we're going to copy the iphone and we'll pay the money when it comes out and that's a terrible precedent for apple for samsung there's all kinds of bad you know there's you infringe this patent but not this patent you get nothing for your fran patents you violated the ante you violated the sherman act like there's a whole range of ways that samsung's business can be thoroughly disrupted especially because of sort of the multiple businesses at play here and again there's a lot of like ego at play here i understand there's a lot of history about both these companies wanting to prove particularly I think Samsung wants to prove that it's as innovative is Apple which is great but at some point you know Apple and Microsoft they signed the deal they settled the litigation in the 90s and they moved on and they're both doing well and i think that's that's really key here I believe we'll see I not with every day that goes by my my belief is it settlement becomes more likely as opposed to a natural verdict being delivered becomes more likely but that's just me I would agree with that and I and I and I also qualify with I'm hopeful as well like I said last week I think it's a win-win if they settle but um I just don't know I mean it's just been so I could just picture how it's going with these guys when they meet yeah you know you give me money no you give me money screw you they walk away it seems like it's probably a pretty childish conversation but easy so Brian are you gonna be you're going to do the court every day until they come back that's your yeah I may be here every day at the there's a court filing systems we get basically email alerts if there's a note from the jury or a verdict and there's about a 15 minute notice so you know just going to be you know here in San Jose with phone and computer nearby and then we hear anything we're after the courtroom and I at the latest it though Brian's me in Santa's I just hammered like three in the afternoon I do there's a verdict I've been doing nothing for three weeks he's a huge beard amazing I mean you are going miss me when you're not sleeping at the court are you only a couple times or those a dire circumstance yeah only only the time I thought of sleeping bag it was cool nice there's a broom closet all right anything else we've been at this for an hour anything else we need to touch on there's a mosquito in here as well so I'm eager to now I'm kidding girl there is a mosquito but I don't want to end because of the mosquito because I'm not a coward awesome from Wisconsin I've been bitten by mosquito anything else we need to touch on anything major Before we jump off the phone here now I think that's I mean it's gonna be interesting I you know one thing I'd like to sit on the coracle case well it was annoying at least there was a lot a lot of times during that deliberation we're ready the you know the kind of a little bit excitement would pop up with the jury notes ask a question at first it was kind of cool then he realized most of the questions were the same question over its rewarded um but so I'm hoping for some of that again the issues are different I mean those those pads were terribly wonky and I mean the copyright claims everything was more technical and more complicated even though the smaller yeah um I don't know how much we're going to get maybe because of that jury form we might get more questions than we think but yeah there are literally going to be like what is trademark dilution nobody ever exert red dress solution nobody ever sees a black boxes in this chart for understanding what is samsung telecommunications America that's a fine question asked yeah yeah pretty much I'm crazy well look I think we've got another week or so this to go we'll probably do another show next week hopefully hopefully we'll have something to talk about in terms of settlement or news of settlement or maybe even a verdict but it's always gentlemen it's a delight to have you on the verge has special edition any Brian anything you want to what's what what's the weather like a court today I feel like we've got we've got to extract all the information about the ambience of the court from you right now we're not in court judge cuz she isnt working on some other cases now criminal cases level is I'm in tension around the court not in tho bad day it's a it's a nice 70 degrees there is a there's a movie theater down the street maybe things they really saw hit that up but uh no it's just it's generally chill yesterday was awesome though because you had a bunch of journalists that had been basically living together you know day in and day out for about three weeks at the other things yesterday was like it was like summer vacation everyone was like really really happy like phone numbers like you know you know BFF you know um wha dis emotionally was actually really really interesting me anything thing happened with local to it's like you spend so much time following this closely you do have developers extended family any week for you're talking about you know every week every day we're talking about it the same kind of bond there was a tinge of sadness actually that this gave the case was over yesterday there's like I'm you know there's only like four or five journalists around here today just a much different thing but we'll probably a bunch of people leak your more stuff the one thing I'm hoping for that we saw with a couple of those questions in Bora chol we saw things start to fall apart we saw this time that it was a jury with Naya I'm just wanna precision and you know I'm hoping we see some towels in that regard because that can go and set the stage and also drive settlement talk really really rapidly defending what we hear back from them it's very true so yeah we'll see I mean notes from the dry Avenue and thought about that notes from the jury that should be that is that about the book that's definitely got to be like a room like a like a lady's romance book yes on the jury so yeah it's like them yes to look at nicholas sparks on the phone right now there you go do it Brendan's pretending to dial for my bed it knows but you have Nicholas Berg all right we got it right this up gentlemen always a pleasure we'll talk next week that is a verge has special edition apple vs samsung rock-and-roll son